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April 29, 2022 | 26 Mins Read

What is the Business Potential of Transformation?

April 29, 2022 | 26 Mins Read

What is the Business Potential of Transformation?


You may remember Joe Pine from podcast #19. He’s the co-author of The Experience Economy, Infinite Possibility, and Authenticity and author of Mass Customization as well as co-founder of Strategic Horizons LLP. On today’s episode, Sarah welcomes Joe back to discuss a column he co-wrote recently for HBR titled The “New You” Business which dives into the business opportunity of transformation.

Sarah Nicastro: Welcome to the Future of Field Service Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today we're going to be talking a bit about the business of transformation. I'm really excited for this conversation and excited to welcome back to the podcast, Joe Pine, who is the author of the book, The Experience Economy, and co-founder of Strategic Horizons. Joe, welcome back to the Future of Field Service Podcast.

Joe Pine: Thanks, Sarah. It's a pleasure to be here again.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, I'm excited to have you back. So you were on... A while back, I forgot to look at what number the episode was, but I'll make sure I put it in the show notes (Episode 19). But you were on to discuss your book, The Experience Economy, and this is something that we reference often as to countless others, talking about the evolution from commodities, to good, to services, ultimately to experiences. And great book, great conversation we had on the podcast the first time, certainly worth a listen. I don't think that we're saying in today's conversation that the experiences in any way irrelevant, rather looking at what's the next evolution of that continual.

Sarah Nicastro: And so you recently, co-authored an article for Harvard Business Review, discussing the fifth pillar of this continuum, which is around transformation. And I'm really excited to talk about this today, Joe, because we talk a lot on this podcast about transformation, as it relates to our audience, transforming their business to better serve their customers. Today we're talking about, as I stated earlier, the business of transformation. So moving beyond offering experiences to helping your customers transform. So can you just kind of kick us off by giving a bit of context and summary around, how did this fifth pillar come to be and what opportunity does it present to folks that would be listening?

Joe Pine: Yeah. Transformations have always been part of the formula, part of the progression of economic diet, from the original discovery of it back in the early 1990s. I knew that there was something beyond experiences, by asking the question, what's next? Always thinking about what's next. And what I realized is that if you design a set of experiences that are so appropriate for particular person or company that you're working with, exactly the right set of experiences, then you can't help but turn to what we often call a life transforming experience.

Joe Pine: There was an experience that changes us in some way. And I realized that was a fifth and final economic offering beyond commodities, goods, services, and experiences. We're using experiences as a raw material to guide people to change, to help them achieve their aspirations, in other words. And we all know we're all products of our experiences. We only ever change through the experiences that we have, and that applies to individuals as well as to corporate customers that you're working with and thinking about how do you... The core is, how do you help them achieve their aspirations? What do they aspire to become and how do you help them achieve that? That's your transformations.

Sarah Nicastro: So let's talk through a couple of examples, just to make sure this is clear for folks that are listening. So we're not talking about quality or convenience, or even the experience we're talking about helping customers realize the benefit and how that helps them transform. So I'm wondering, I know in the Harvard Business Review article, which everyone should go and read and we can make sure to link to that too. You walk through some different examples and there's examples of how this plays out in a consumer oriented business, as well as a business to business situation. Can you just give a couple of examples to help illustrate this for folks that are listening?

Joe Pine: Sure. Well, the key example we start with in the Harvard Business Review article, or which is called the "New You" business, is profiled by Sanford. And it's sort of funny, right after it came out, Sanford sells the company. So it's no longer profiled by Sanford, it's just Profile. But what Profile does is they focus on weight loss, right?

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Pine: So that's a personal transformation that many of us want to have at some point of our lives. Many of us want to have our entire adult lives, it seems like. And they recognize that you really have to have a commitment to be able to make this happen. That's one of the key things with the transformation, is the customer has to be committed. Otherwise, you're never going to make something like that happen. It's too hard.

Joe Pine: And obviously, people can always buy self-help books. They can buy diet books and they can do other things and try and make it happen themselves. But it's just very difficult and so many of us need help in that regard. So Profile's great system that, yes, it's based off of meal plans like WW, the former Weight Watchers and other companies have, they will sell you these meal plans, but the secret sauce is in the commitment to the program and the health coaching that they do as a result of it. So you go into one of their places, of course, and with the pandemic, you now have virtual consultations, but you go into one of their places, have this virtual consultation. And the first thing they do is, they do is what I call diagnosis. They want to know what are your aspirations? How much weight do you want to lose? What are the obstacles you run into being able to do and so forth?

Joe Pine: And then they explain the plan to them. And the commitment is that you have to have a once a week session with your health coach. And that once a week session is where you really go through any of those obstacles. You get the coaching requires, well, I fell down in this area. Okay, well, this is how we can help you and so forth. And at the end of it, they don't let you off this commitment or off of this coaching session, without a commitment, not to losing weight, not to a particular amount, but to the next session.

Joe Pine: So just keeping you going that session at a time. And that staying through it is what really gives the program, staying power. And they've got research that the commitment and combined with the health coaching allows people to use their system to lose more weight than with others. So it's a great example. And it's thinking more generically, you all of healthcare is about transformation, whether it's going for sick to well. Anyone that's a coach, whether it's a golf coach or a tennis coach, or a life coach, or an executive coach, or whatever it is, is in the transformation business as well. And you have coaching that applies to B2B as well in business and to employees within businesses. For example, BetterUp is a coaching platform that works with companies, particularly when they're in some sort of digital transformation, when they're going through the transformations that you're talking about internally to better serve their customers.

Joe Pine: And they provide coaching to their executives, to their managers and professionals and so forth. They have a system that allows you to input things that you're looking for, what your particular issues are. And then it has an algorithm that's able to find, well, here's three coaches that we think are best suited for you, but you of course get the final determination of which coach you want to have. And then you go through those coaching sessions. And again, like with Profile, they do a lot of teaching of these coaches. They're not just people that they find on fiber or somewhere, they help give them what they need to be able to handle the situation. And interestingly, BetterUp is now going to the individual market to not sell to corporate down below. Now anybody can go to them and be able to get an executive coach that's customized to their needs.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. It's really interesting. I'm thinking about an example of a conversation we've had on this podcast. So there's a gentleman named Sasha Ilyukhin, who works at Tetra Pak. And he was a guest on the podcast going back ways as well. But Tetra Pak, obviously their core business is packaging, equipment packaging, materials, and that sort of stuff. But they saw the opportunity because of the success they had in transforming their own manufacturing operations to help their customers do the same. Right?

Joe Pine: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: And so it's something where they are able to offer that same transformation. So sort of a step by step process, collaborating with customers to help their customers see the same success they've had in optimizing their manufacturing facilities. And one of the things that I think we can talk a bit about is, in that model, they accept risk.

Sarah Nicastro: It's something where, if we help you achieve this outcome, then that's how we make money. And if we don't, we don't. And so it leads me to one of the important points here, which is that embracing transformation as a business model means that you have to be willing to accept risk, and you have to be willing to put your customers success at the forefront of your mind, your actions, et cetera. So this is a big shift for companies though. So can you talk a little bit about why that can be challenging for people to sort of wrap their heads around?

Joe Pine: Well, I mean, it really is challenging, particularly if you're putting your income at risk, right?

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Pine: If the amount of money you get is at risk based on the success of your customers, then that can be very difficult people to wrap their minds around you, particularly what you recognize. You can't guarantee that success. If I'm selling a good like packaging or I'm selling a service like installing machines or whatever. I can say everything's under my control. I can guarantee this is going to be a debt, therefore you pay me for what I'm going to do. But when it comes to a transformation, there are no guarantees, right?

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Pine: A lot of people who go to Profile by Sanford and want to lose weight, they still don't lose the weight or lose the amount that they want. A lot of companies that go in and help their clients change what they're doing. And you think about management consulting in general is another B2B transformation business, that not all their customers are going to be successful. Not everybody can handle it.

Joe Pine: So it is a very different state of being almost, when you think about this, that you've got to have that attitude that's says, we're going to do everything we can to be able to do this. But one of the things it says is that you got to pick your customers carefully, right?

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Pine: I remember with Stanford, I did this diagnosis phase. They start with a diagnosis. Well, there's a phase zero you need to think about too. You'll use another medical term, which is triage. Triage, is like you're in a battlefield or a huge car accident, or a series of accidents and so forth. Doctors have to determine who can be saved and who can't be saved. And they focus the resources. Those that can because otherwise they're trying to help the ones that in the end will not be saved. There's going to take away resources and more people will die.

Joe Pine: Well, and the same thing sort of thing about the dire consequences of death in there is you need a triage of your customers, is that you need to be able to ascertain, is this client ready for this? Is this client able to achieve the aspiration of what... If we do everything we do, are they going to get that success that they're looking for? And therefore we get the payout and if not, then you can't do it on a risk basis. Right?

Sarah Nicastro: Right.

Joe Pine: You got to make that... You may still say, okay, I'll still work with you, but I'm going to do this, or I'm going to get you to the point where you to do it, and then we'll do it. But in some cases you can't do that because even though the customer's willing to give you money, you really don't think they're ready for it.

Sarah Nicastro: Right. Yeah. That makes sense. So the other element here is that this type of evolution relies a lot on the ability to build relationships and to develop trust. So talk a little bit about the importance of that here and how, again, that's far different from the world of commodities products, more transactional type of relationships.

Joe Pine: Right. And going from transactional to transformational really does require a high degree of trust. Because you figure out what transformations, you're actually mucking around inside of people. Right?

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Pine: And it aims talking about a fiduciary responsibility that you have to do to the benefit of the customer. There's a more responsibility here too, that you do things that are to the benefit of that customer, that we've all heard. I don't know, heard stories, but we've seen movies for example, where psychologists actually are evil and they do things to their patients to get them to do stuff, because they're in that transformation business, they're inside their heads. The same way whether you're working with companies or with consumer. You're in inside their head, so to speak. And you've got to have gain that level of trust because they're not going to go out there. They're not going to change based on just what you say, unless they trust you and do it.

Joe Pine: I know that myself from like, I do golf coaching, I take coaching from professionals to try and get better. And there's where you start, you just don't have that trust. You just don't think that they're doing it the way that's going to help you. And then there's nothing you can do. It's not going to work. You got to gain that trust. That's one of the first things that when you get in with the customer that you need to work on, is show that your trustworthy, show that you have their best interests in heart, as opposed to just wanting to make money from them.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. You know, the other thing I'm thinking about, Joe, is, we've talked quite a bit on here about sort of the progression to delivering outcomes. And so it's not dissimilar, I think this is taking it a step further in ensuring the impact of those outcomes. Right. But I think one of the things that happens within our audience is there's sort of a limiting view around what we mean when we say outcomes. And so I had a gentleman on from Phillips he's no longer at Phillips. He is with a different organization, but Chris La Fratta, and the title of that episode was, is your view of outcome based service, limiting your success. Because I think, tying that add into this and what you say in this article is, thinking about it, a couple steps further in terms of not just how you deliver the outcomes, but how you work with a customer to enable those outcomes to change their business, their situation, their needs, et cetera. So it's a really interesting conversation.

Sarah Nicastro: Now, in the article, you talk about three steps to defining transformation. Can you just quickly touch on those?

Joe Pine: Sure. And the first is that you need to ascertain the jobs to be done. My jobs to be done theory's been around now for quite a while. I mean, it's origins are in the 1960s in fact, but it's understanding what are your customers hiring you to do. Is that when they buy a drill, is a classic example, what they really want is a hole, or hiring the drill to do the hole, like hiring a contractor to do the hole as well. You can hire your kid and pay them to drill the hole or whatever it might be. So what are the jobs you want to be done? And one of the things that I work with Dave Norton at Stone Mantel has come up with a great formulation and really meet on the bones around the fact that there are four distinct jobs to be done, functional, social, emotional, and aspirational.

Joe Pine: And often we just want the functional things done. If you think about going to a hospital, for example, the functional jobs you want done are, having a bed to be in the hospital, getting to the right places at the right time for the surgery that you're doing, even the surgery itself you can think of is very a functional thing of go going through that. But then you have all this emotions wrapped up in being in the hospital with your loved ones there, with whatever you go under generals to anesthesia, there's a chance of you dying. And if you don't administer to the emotional needs, then the job's not done and their social aspects as well of how do you handle the loved ones when they're in the waiting room, when they're [inaudible 00:18:00], how do you greet them?

Joe Pine: You think about the fact that during COVID where so many people were in the hospital and they couldn't even see their family, they couldn't visit them. I mean, it actually increased the number of deaths because you didn't have that social, emotional connection to them.

Joe Pine: And finally, aspirational is what is the real outcome as you say, which is exactly the right word. What is the outcome that they want done? And the surgery itself is only part of it because they're not whole until they heal again, until for example, you have hip surgery, you got her hip replacement. Well, you've got to... The thing is, new hip is not the outcome. The outcome is being able to walk or to play golf or to whatever it might be. And again, the job's not done until you hit that aspirational outcome of what they're trying to do.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I think about the aspirational one a lot as it relates to our audience, because I think one example that came to mind as you were talking through that is, around data and the ability. Some of our companies in our audience have to leverage data that they might be gathering on their customer's operations for their own use in a way that provides those customers insights that can really help them. But I think that where sometimes we limit ourselves is how far we take that vision. Customers aren't necessarily going to benefit from a company just dumping them a bunch of data and saying, hey, here you go.

Sarah Nicastro: I mean, if you can take that a step further and then think through, how do you make that data useful? How do you make it actionable? Is there coaching you can do to help them use the data? Is there education you can provide on what the data means, and maybe what other customer customers of yours in that ecosystem are doing with the data, then you start to get into helping them with their aspirational objectives in a way that can be unique differentiation. So it's interesting. Okay. So after change, the job to be done... Go ahead.

Joe Pine: Well, right. And then you're getting into the second step, in fact, which is define success along the way. So rarely can you go, like from here to boom, one life transforming experience, right?

Sarah Nicastro: Right.

Joe Pine: So that it will happen. Those are always serendipity, but it takes a series of steps along way. And what are those milestones that you have to go to. You talked about, well, you got to get educated, you got to be able to use the data. You got to be able to apply the data. How do you go through those and define success along the way is a key thing.

Joe Pine: And then you've got to identify the barriers that they have to overcome in order to be able to achieve that success. And often your past experience with other clients will enable you to recognize what those barriers might be. But every person, every company is idiosyncratic is in individual. And you've got to be on the look out for those and identify what those might be for that individual company.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. That makes sense. Okay. So that's how we can define what the transformation looks like. And then you go into talking about the steps to designing, offering to aid or create that transformation. So what does that look like?

Joe Pine: Yeah. So first of all, to recognize with the transformation, what you have to do is you have to integrate together of a number of different elements into one cohesive offering, into one solution basically. And it's really is a solution business. Recognize transformation are built on top of experiences. We only ever change our experiences, experiences are built on top of services, the activities that people do. Services are built on top of goods, the physical, tangible things, and goods are made out of commodities at the bottom level. So all of these happen and today, if you're not in the transformation business and the customers isn't buying that full transformation from you, then guess what, they're responsible for integrating all those solutions. Again, going back to dieting, I'm responsible for buying the dieting book, buying the meal plans, keeping track of my calories, doing all of those things, and guess what? I'm not all that good at that. And my chances of success go down.

Joe Pine: So how do you integrate those together? And it doesn't mean you have to some apply all of those elements so that you often can partner with other companies and be able to pick and choose and get them to bring together these elements, where they excel at things. So you've got to complete and total solution. You got to recognize one of the things that you don't have. And then when it comes to partnering, the second element here is also to partner with your customers, right?

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Pine: That it is a partnership that you've got to get them involved. Again, you've got to get that commitment. We have the old saying that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink, right?

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Joe Pine: If the horse doesn't want to drink, it's not going to happen. So you got to partner with your customers and maintain that commitment all along, and understand that there's times in any partnership where they in the lead and there's times when you are in the lead, and that dance that you go through is very important. Another key element-

Sarah Nicastro: Sorry, Joe. Real quick. I was just going to say on partnerships, I know one of the learnings that a few people have shared here as they kind of progressed through the journey to advancing their service businesses, and so as you look at services to experiences to transformation, it typically means partnering with a different stakeholder within your customer base. So the person that you sell services to is not the same person you're going to sell transformation to. And so that's part of the journey for these folks is understanding what that stakeholder landscape looks like within their customer base and developing relationship with the people that ultimately are going to want to not only invest in, but to your point, be equally committed to the transformation.

Joe Pine: Right. If you think about a normal customer hierarchy, you may be selling services at this level, but if you want to sell transformation, that's going to be at a higher level. Right?

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Joe Pine: Absolutely. The third thing is to provide customized support. You can't do this on a standardized basis. You can't have one offering one solution that fits everybody. No solution fits all. You've got to be able to customize it. It gets back to my initial work on mass customization back on their 1990s is where all of this flows from is efficiently serving customers uniquely. As an example, one of my favorite companies in that regard is Progressive Insurance, that they have tens of thousands of different policies. It's why you could name your price and they will design a policy that fits your price. But then where they really shine is when you have an accident and they come to your rescue and they, they, they make you whole. That's their business.

Joe Pine: The former late CEO of Progressive, Peter Lewis, said a number of years ago that we're not in the business of all to insurance. We're in the business of reducing the human trauma and economic costs of automobile accidents in effective and profitable ways. That's a transformational view. And it's all based on that customizing. And earlier you used a word about, you said the word insurer, that something happens. And I've got a little insurance model that applies to, I think in general to all service companies is insure, if you look at the definition, it means something bad happens, we pay you money. That's the service level.

Joe Pine: Yeah. Okay. Something bad happens, we pay you money. We got to do that. Offshore, is what Progressive really focuses on, is when something bad happens, we make you feel better, right?

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Pine: That's handling the functional job and pay you money, emotional and social jobs of ushering you, making you feel better. But that aspirational job of bringing you back to whole is ensure. How do we ensure you get the outcome you want? And that applies in any business that wants to think and be in the transformation business. And then it relates to the next point about supporting the full range of jobs to be done. Don't just focus on aspirational, recognize that you have all these others, and don't just focus on functional. Those are sort of the two end points that if you're not in the transformation business, you tend to only function on functional.

Joe Pine: If you're in transformation, sometimes you focus on an aspirational without taking all those into account. And the final thing is incredibly important. And it gets back to what you were talking about earlier, Sarah, about risk, putting risk at it, and that's charging for outcomes. And what people hire you for transformation, they want an outcome. And it doesn't matter the goods and the services you provide, doesn't matter the experience they have, unless they get the outcome they desire. But you need to make as a company, your income dependent on your customer's outcome, you to charge for demonstrated outcomes that customers achieve. And that's the one thing when we first said that back in 1999. We were sort of thought crazy regarding that. And now you see it happening more and more all over the place, where companies are able to actually charge that outcome. So they put a risk at it because they know that's what it's really all about, bottom line.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Agree. Are there any other examples, Joe, that you would point to, as those who are embracing this next pillar of the evolution and doing it well?

Joe Pine: Well, one set of companies I've done a lot of work with over the last 20 years is in health care, particularly with hospitals. And one of the core reasons is that research shows that the better the patient experience, the better the outcome. And so there's a lot of companies are focused on that. And I've worked with them through a consultant company in particular itself called Starizon Studio, that did actually charge for demonstrated outcomes. So I'll use them as a mini example in here, is that when I worked with Starizon, we gave what we call the 25% transformation guarantee. That 25% of our fees were completely at the client's discretion. They could pay all of it, or they could pay none of it, based on whether Starizon did what we said would do. They got out of it, the outcome that they said they wanted. Some consulting service will say, well, let's give us a percent of market cap or give us a percent of cost reduction.

Joe Pine: We just made it totally at their discretion. And in all the years who was in business and we had two clients that ever did not pay at all. And so we worked to make them whole, we did additional work to make that happen. But one of the companies that we work with is Heartland Healthcare in St. Joseph, Missouri. And so there's a small hospital system centered around St. Joseph's. And what we came up with them is, what is your purpose? What is your raise on debt? Why do you exist? And they decide that what they're all about is live life well, right?

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Pine: That became the organizing principle, the theme, the purpose of the organization, that they want their patients to live life well, and not just their patients, they want the community that they reside in. They want everybody to live life well, so they got to get more involved in the community. They want their employees to live life well, so they have the wherewithal to help their patients and community live life well and so forth. And so completely change it. They recognize that they're no longer in the healthcare business. They said, we're in the life care business. They change the name from Heartland to Mosaic. So instead of Heartland Healthcare to Mosaic Life Care. They completely redesigned their patient offices to be able to be warm, welcoming places that fit in with live life well. They added coaching and other things that they do, and they really began to think transformationally about how do we transform our patients, community, our employees, so that they live life well.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Very cool. And so one of the final points I want to make sure we touch on is, just about every company that I have on the podcast, they're looking for ways to differentiate what they do from what any of the competitions do. And one of the strengths of the transformations business is that it provides value that is very, very hard for others to imitate.

Joe Pine: Yes.

Sarah Nicastro: So how increasingly important do you see this becoming over the next couple of years and why?

Joe Pine: Well, I think it'll be a longer timeframe before it becomes generally accepted to be transformations, but as you exactly say is that, business competition is a social differentiation. If you're not differentiated, then you'll become commoditized. Right?

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Pine: And for my entire career of helping companies, my Bogeyman is always commoditization. You'll become, you don't do this, you should be commoditized. And that's the case here as well, even... I've said that long about, goods and services are becoming mere commodities. So you have to stage experiences. Well, if you're in a business where customers are really looking for outcomes and here that applies to all B2B companies, even if you're selling physical goods to other companies, no company, once you're good, because they like the goods. There are a means to an end. You need to sell the end rather than the means.

Joe Pine: And that's the reason why you need to... One of the techniques we talk about in the articles is the old TQM technique of asked five whys, applies not just to, when something goes wrong, applies to, what does your customer want? We want to buy this. Why? Well, because of it, why? Until you get down to the core reason. How can you help them achieve that core reason that aspiration? And that's what will give you differentiation. That's what we allow you to escape the commoditization trap. And so whether it's one year, three year, five or 10 years, as you find yourself being commoditized, particularly as a B2B company, particularly as one in field service in other sort of service industries, is to recognize the opportunity that lays there in transformation so that you will be differentiated. And if you're smart, you will take advantage of the next one to three years before your competitors. You'll commoditize them because of your focus on being in the transformation business.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I think that's a really good point. And another thing I would say, especially to your comment, you think it'll be sort of a longer transition, this also can... It doesn't have to be a complete 180 on how a business sells itself. It can be a diversification strategy. You mentioned earlier on that, if you're going to go into the transformation business, you need to be selective about who your clients are. So for a company who is well established, who has seen good success, selling services, even selling experiences, it doesn't mean you have to go all in on pushing transformation to all of your customer base. But looking at the opportunity of those clients who you feel would be a really good fit would have interest, would be committed.

Sarah Nicastro: It can give you an opportunity in the short term to really test this out and learn more about how it could work and just get some good experience with it, so that you can get ahead of the game. So I think oftentimes we think in absolute. And it doesn't have to be, okay today we're a service business or an experienced business, tomorrow we're transitioning to a transformation business. It can be, hey, let's start doubling in this. Let's start picking some select customers to work with and shape this out and learn from et cetera. So really cool stuff, Joe. I mean, I think it's a great article. Like I said, I'll make sure it's linked. I'll make sure the earlier podcast is linked as well. Any final thoughts that you would want to share with our listeners?

Joe Pine: Well, I love what you just said, Sarah, about, you can start small, you can start with certain clients and do that. But eventually, the key thing is to recognize what business you're really in. I think, first of all, you can shift from services to experiences for all of your clients. Even if you are delivering day to day services, well, the key with the experiences is how you go about doing what you do. That turns you any mundane interaction into engaging encounter. And then transformations, thinking about why your customers want those. And so that movement from what we do, to how we do it to why our customer wants and focusing on them and recognize that it really is becoming customer-centric in order to be able to affect this as an important thing in recognizing how you can benefit from transformations.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I like that. So if services are the what an experience is the how, then transformation is the why. And I think that can really help organizations sort of map what this looks like for their customer base, and start thinking about it in terms of, 1, 3, 5, 10 year strategy. Really, really good. All right, Joe, where can folks find you if they want to look at the book or... Like I said, I'll put the links to the Harvard Business Review article.

Joe Pine: Yup. And I'll mention that we actually... Originally came out the book in 1999, we released it for the third time in 2020. You can find that easily on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, anywhere. You can find me on LinkedIn, if you want. And on Twitter, @joepine. And then our website is,, Strategic Horizons with an, and there's information on me, our books, our certification classes, our onstage frontline training program and everything else.

Sarah Nicastro: Excellent. All right. Awesome, Joe. Well, thanks for coming back. I appreciate you being here.

Joe Pine: Thank you, Sarah. I appreciate the opportunity.

Sarah Nicastro: You can find more by visiting us at You can also find us on LinkedIn, as well as Twitter @TheFutureOfFS. The Future of Field Service Podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at As always, thank you for listening.