In a session from Future of Field Service Sydney, Sarah talks with Jordan Argiriou, Director, Service Solutions APEC at QIAGEN about how the company is channeling its service focus to navigate current economic conditions.

Sarah Nicastro: So what we're going to talk about is some concepts around customer centricity and this idea that right now everyone is facing some sort of economic realities, turmoil, et cetera. And so I mentioned earlier that historically, service was seen as this cost center where it would be like, "Okay, well where can we cut? We'll cut here." And I think companies with the recognition that it is a profit center need to find ways to be cost conscious without it negatively impacting the employee experience or the customer experience. So we're going to kind of talk about some of those elements a bit. But before we do that, tell everyone a little bit about yourself, your role and Qiagen.

Jordan Argiriou: Sure. Hey, so I'm Jordan Argiriou, as everyone can see. I'll start with the personal side. I'm married, a father of three beautiful kids. That's the gray in my beard, everyone I think can all relate.

Sarah Nicastro: There's barely any, so they must be well-behaved.

Jordan Argiriou: No, it's true. They're not too bad. I've worked, initially started out as a service technician slash engineer, and that was with an Australian company, very small. Moved across to a company called Biolab, which some people may recognize in the room. Quite a large Australian company for biotechnology and within that space. Biolab was then acquired by Thermo Fisher. So I was there approximately 10 years. And now with Qiagen. So started off as the Australian Head of Field Service, or Australian New Zealand Head of Field Service. And now I look after service for APEC. So Director of Service for APEC.

Sarah Nicastro: Excellent. Okay.

Jordan Argiriou: And been with Qiagen 10 years this year.

Sarah Nicastro: Now would everyone here be familiar with Qiagen

Jordan Argiriou: I don't know. Is anyone here familiar with Qiagen?

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. This, yeah, so maybe talk just a little bit about what the company does.

Jordan Argiriou: So we are a leader in biotechnology, again. Molecular testing, research from the life science academia side, clinical testing. Something that people may be familiar with, quite obviously, is COVID testing. So we have the robotics, the instruments, the kits, the consumables. So end-to-end, sample to insight, a solution for the customers.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. So when we're facing economic turmoil, I think this gut reaction can be to look internally immediately and start looking for, "Okay, where can we cut? How can we cut," et cetera. Let's talk about how there's another way to do this, which is Qiagen's approach has really been to look externally and to use this as an opportunity to connect with customers more deeply in a different way and do a lot more listening. So tell us a little bit about this idea of resisting that urge to just cut, cut and to really take that conversation externally first and learn what customers' changing needs are.

Jordan Argiriou: Yeah. I mean, look, and I think we're all facing the same challenge. We heard it with the round table discussion. The post COVID effect of having to do things very differently versus what we traditionally did, is obviously still in effect somewhat today. And it's going to continue because it's something that we've now become quite accustomed to and we've adapted to and we've changed, the whole world's changed in how we're working.

However, I think we all do a lot of listening. Through, across the whole service industry. Again, from your presentation this morning, from the discussion, there is a lot of listening going on as to what the customer needs, wants, would like to see for the future. I think what we've done differently or what we have done differently is assemble teams internally. So both actively listening, actively surveying customers, asking them what they want. We all do that. That's traditional.

What we've done now is to put together teams globally from very different diverse backgrounds that wouldn't typically be on that sort of team and ask them to create a solution for the customers. Also, in conjunction with that, asking the customers to be part of that pilot, trying it out. The advantage we have here in APEC is that we work with a broad range of markets. So we have some that are very, I guess still emerging and in their infancy, where we have the country we're sitting in today of Australia where it's quite a mature market. So we have a good stretch between the two to know, "Okay, this is working there, it could work here." Something that we might overlook in Australia by saying, this is what's always worked or this is what traditionally works in the mature market. We may be able to adopt something, an idea from an emerging market that we could implement here today.

And that's what we've done in terms of listening to the customer. So it's continuous improvement. And that's again, normal for most industries that we're looking at here today. However, adding that extra component of the internal people saying, "Okay, this is what we know works, but what else could we do?" Again, specifically Australia has a lot of good best practice that we could adopt in the emerging. However, they have a lot of new technology that they might adopt quite quickly that we would be more, "Let's analyze it, let's test it, let's look at it. So that's working today for us."

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Now, do you have any examples of... with the customer listening you do, and the way that you've built those teams internally, like new offerings that have come out of that? So we saw this during COVID, and there's different industry examples. So for instance, there's a company that we work with in the restaurant industry. Well, restaurants were closed. So at a maximum they were doing some volume of takeout business, but a lot of them were shut down. And so obviously if your livelihood is servicing that equipment, there can be some panic. But they look for ways to help introduce new, maybe even temporary offerings to help keep the equipment. They can't just let it sit, either. So just really getting creative about as the customer's needs change or as the economic landscape changes, how can you get creative and adapt?

Jordan Argiriou: So one of the initiatives we undertook was to look at, so not so much implement in each country, but to look at the customizing of our offering to each sort of market: what their conditions asked for, what the customers needed post COVID, or during COVID, post COVID, and then to come up with a customized solution that would fit that country or region. It sounds quite simple, but it's actually quite difficult to do because each country and region has all these different needs and there's north and south and there's different types of agreements and products that they want. So we've come up with a semi customizable approach to service.

The other thing we did as well, actually, just to add to the answer before, was to survey our sales team across the region and globally as well, and ask them, "What products are you comfortable selling? What works for you?" Again, sounds simple, sounds something that you could do anytime. But post events, post coming out of that COVID environment and not being able to have a touch point with the customer, or a very forced touchpoint where they didn't really want too many people out on site in their laboratories, specifically for healthcare providers. So we asked the sales team, "Hey, what are we doing? What are you comfortable selling? What would work?" And that in conjunction with asking the customers with the offerings we came up with, we've come up with some fairly customizable solutions for customers.

So like a subscription service instead of going for the whole agreement because of the economic pressure. Various other products that we are starting to put together now to be able to offer them some relief from the economic pressure, but at the same time keeping their operations running as they were before.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. And I think sometimes if we look at it in terms of opportunity instead of challenge, in an economy where customers have their own cost consciousness, sometimes that can be a good thing for service. I mean, if you manufacture equipment assets, organizations are looking to extend the life because they don't want to make new CapEx investments. If you can offer these new arrangements as a service, that might not be what you have done or maybe an ideal, but it's a way to think outside of the box.

Jordan Argiriou: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: What I'm curious about though, Jordan, is when I hear customized, I think that being at odds with scalability.

Jordan Argiriou: That's true.

Sarah Nicastro: So how do you strike that balance between customizing offerings to the customer need without it becoming unsustainable for the business?

Jordan Argiriou: Absolutely. So the word customized is quite appealing to the service industry and to customers because they're thinking, "Great, I get this end-to-end solution, I can prolong the life of the instrument, et cetera, and I'm getting exactly what I would like." However, as you said perfectly, it becomes quite challenging for a company to be able to manage the customization per product, firstly, per market, per economy, per everything. So it becomes quite a challenge when you're presenting that sort of solution, because you know that the next step is to customize even further. And you'll get to a point where you literally can't do anything more. And the customer's going to say, "Well, you've run out of ideas, or, "this is now the new norm that I can ask for whatever."

So we do have a limitation in terms of customizing. So you have your base agreement and then you can add on and things like that. For future scalability, I mean, it's going to become a world where we're going to have to customize our offering for the long term. However, there has to be an end point. Otherwise you're going to end up spending a huge amount of money. Well, not just money but time, effort, employee engagement with the customer just trying to figure out which customer has what, which it's quite a difficult process.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. So I think this is interesting. It kind of bleeds into one of, I guess another of my favorite conversations. You can tell, I happened into this space and now I'm such a nerd about it because I'm like, "Oh, I love talking about this." But what this makes me think of to some degree is not that there isn't any actual customization to what you're offering, so I'm not saying that., but I do think we have this whole conversation right now about what is the narrative we're creating with customers? What is the dialogue we're having with customers? And how is that maybe different or how different does it need to be from the dialogue we're having internally? Okay. So what I mean by this is customers want to feel that you are customizing your solutions to their needs, but that doesn't necessarily have to mean that every solution is completely customized to their needs. It can mean there's a menu of standard customizations, et cetera.

So there needs to be this acknowledgement that the way we talk about things internally is not always the way we should be talking about them externally.

Jordan Argiriou: Absolutely.

Sarah Nicastro: So I have this example, one time I was talking to this gentleman... He was so frustrated and I felt so badly. He's like, "Well, we've invested in IoT and no one will buy it." And I'm like, "Because they don't care that you've invested in IoT. They care about what value-

Jordan Argiriou: Correct.

Sarah Nicastro: ...that provides." But the reality is we struggle a lot with taking the innovation that we're doing as a business and turning that into a value proposition that resonates with what our customers want. So I guess in my mind, I'm thinking part of it is like, yes, I'm sure there is some customization, but there could also be more perceived customization than actual customization.

Jordan Argiriou: Absolutely. And you raise a good point. The value proposition is probably the strongest part of that customization. If you can't deliver an end-to-end solution for what they need, and like you said, you invest heavily in technology in terms of their accessibility remotely. A lot of customers might just see it and go, "That's great. I'm not going to use it."

Sarah Nicastro: Or, "Great, well that's saving you money because you're not on site, so I'll pay you less."

Jordan Argiriou: Yes, correct. Correct.

Sarah Nicastro: This is another one of my favorite conversations. Yeah.

Jordan Argiriou: Correct.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. Yeah. What this makes me think of is I had this conversation once with a gentleman from a company in the US called Spencer Technologies, and he used the analogy of, hopefully this makes sense, if you go bowling with children and you can put the bumpers up, so like bumper bowling, the customer just thinks that they can... But really you're keeping them in the lane you want them to be in.

Jordan Argiriou: Absolutely.

Sarah Nicastro: Hopefully I'm making sense to everyone. So you're finding ways to meet this customer demand to have more flexibility, more customization, personalization of offerings. If you think about where we're headed, we talked quite a bit this morning about the world of delivering outcomes. What do you think is coming along?

Jordan Argiriou: I don't think there's going to be an end to the customization. And again from this morning, from the round table, one of the comments was, and I think it was yourself that made the comment, that the next generation coming forward, the generation following that, they're all now accustomed to having things immediate. They're having at their fingertips. They're wanting that sort of interaction. As they become consumers, managers, leaders within businesses, they're going to adopt that same idea. No matter the cost, because it's going to become... it's already become the norm in their world. In ours, it's starting to seep in. It's here, but we're still, I wouldn't say resisting, but we're still being realists about what we can do and what our capabilities are.

But by the time they enter the landscape as, like I said, either employees or consumers or leaders, that is very much going to become everyday life. So we're going to see a lot more of this. In my opinion, a lot more. So that customization, the digitization, it's going to become normal. So if you think about it, with any sort of piece of technology that you own, you can customize it to be you. But again, it's within those bumpers that you have that. However, moving forward you can see it's becoming a lot more open-ended and you can completely customize what you're doing with that bit of technology, which I think will translate into us as well.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm. I think it's also interesting when you think about this conversation of delivering outcomes, ultimately a customer wants more to be able to rely on you to do something they don't want to need to do. They just want the peace of mind. However, we don't live in an age where anyone's comfortable trusting entirely that you'll deliver that. Meaning they don't want to be hands-on, but they want to at any point be able to look at a dashboard, a real-time visibility into the fact that you're doing what you said you could would do for them. So there's this, I think, parallel need of, "I want you to do it. I also want to know at any given time how you're doing it, what's going on, what the status is, et cetera."

So let's talk a little bit about talent and what you see there. So whether it is being agile and adapting to economic challenges and being creative, or whether it's hopefully that normalizing and moving towards this next phase of delivering outcomes. How do you see the role talent plays in that? And how are you navigating that?

Jordan Argiriou: Absolutely. So I think that there's a, yeah we spoke about it earlier today, with talent retention not only being around a career path, not only being around incentive and conditions, but more around the diversity, the sustainability, all of those factors together. And something that I truly respect of our company, of Qiagen, is they implemented very strong type of diversity targets 14 months ago. Which in my opinion were probably perceived at the beginning to be a checkbox. I'm just being blunt, and this is my opinion here.

Sarah Nicastro: We're all friends here.

Jordan Argiriou: Absolutely. But it was perceived that it was something that we needed to do as part of a corporate responsibility.

Sarah Nicastro: Sure.

Jordan Argiriou: However, come to this day today, we have seen these initiatives and programs that we're running really be part of our everyday lives. So they've actually, our executive team has done an extremely good job of number one, correcting gender diversity across leadership. It's an extremely... I mean, the company at the moment is probably 50/50 gender roles on either side. A lot of leadership where typically it was governed by, service leadership as a good example is typically male dominated because that's who's-

Sarah Nicastro: Because they progressed through... yeah.

Jordan Argiriou: Come through, right. But I would say now our global service team is more or less 60/40, which is a challenge in itself to get to that number. But we've found really good talent within our marketing side, within our financial side, within our... Even from our global product services side that actually run our third level support. And we've introduced that. So in terms of retaining and attracting, the activities that Qiagen have put in place some time ago have really paid off today because we are attracting the right people now. We are attracting a stronger group of people applying for positions, because they're seeing a pathway no matter... Where you're located where you are, you can have a pathway forward if you want to move into that space.

Otherwise, even if you want to stay within your own space, there's lots of lateral moves you can make within the organization. I think one that pops into my head now is post COVID everyone was talking about the... What's the word? The great resignation and people moving on and shifting and everything else. Our global head of HR at the time said, "No, it's actually the great re-imagination because we want to offer, instead of moving along and going to the next place, we want to offer lateral moves for people." So is it, if we can't offer you what you really want in the future in this position, then we can think about a different pathway.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Jordan Argiriou: And really mixing it up and allowing people to go into country, taking on different roles. It's actually been a very positive experience. And when it comes to service, we're doing the same thing in the region. We're changing things up. We're looking at the traditional structure differently. Not having the traditional service manager, supervisor, engineers. It's changed quite a bit in the past, I would say, three years for us.

Sarah Nicastro: I love that perspective of the great re-imagination.

Jordan Argiriou: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: I had a conversation recently about how so much of the potential in service is about how you perceive it. Because each of these challenges is also an opportunity, but you have to push beyond the realities of the problem. And that's not to say they are not real problems, but you have to get over perceiving them only that way to be able to see that opportunity that lies beyond there. I love that. Danielle, I'm assuming it's uncommon for a company to start DEI as a checkbox exercise and then realize, "Oh wow, this is actually really benefiting us."

And again, not to spook out our internal organization but all credit, in my opinion, goes to our CEO for really driving all of... I mean you've got that whole sphere of diversity and there's a lot of tags in there, but he's really driving that forward, and that's the next phase for us. Because again, traditionally male dominated, traditionally very structured sort of org charts that you would see and think this is how we're going to move forward. But all of that has changed and it's actually been an extremely positive shift for the company. So it's amazing.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. So I hope you don't mind me sharing how we met.

Jordan Argiriou: Course not.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. So Jordan and I met a few years ago, and I think I reached out to you because you had attended Field Service Asia.

Jordan Argiriou: Yes.

Sarah Nicastro: And I wasn't there myself, but I was looking through the folks that spoke at the event and I reached out and said, "Hi Jordan, I have this podcast, I'd love to have you on." Et cetera. So anytime, I mentioned at the beginning, my goal is to be the voice of the industry. So that means I don't have an editorial calendar, I don't believe in them. I think there is not much value in my content if I'm driving an agenda. So my goal is always just to connect to people in the industry and chat with them to understand what it is that they are really struggling with, learning from, passionate about, and then help them frame that into a conversation that will help others. That's my job.

So we set up this sort of introductory chat, very informal. And here is this tough guy from Australia and I'm like, "Hey Jordan, so here's what the podcast is, blah, blah, blah. So if you were to come on, do you have in mind what you might want to talk about?" And he was like, "Mental health." And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I love this." Right? Because you don't often hear that from a man or in field service, I mean. But-

Jordan Argiriou: Absolutely.

Sarah Nicastro: ...a lot of this stuff. So I want to talk about this a bit. Because at that time we were in the midst of COVID, and so there was a lot of things you were facing as a leader with very real struggles that your teams were having. But I mean, in reality, we have barely navigated out of the COVID climate into all of these other crises.

So as human beings, I think most of us have faced some really, really tough points over the last few years. And I think we're foolish as leaders to not acknowledge that our employees are human and have had the same. So I just wanted to bring this into the conversation. Because I think when we talk about company culture, creating a psychological safety among our workforce, this vulnerability, this openness, mental health and making sure our people know that we care about that aspect as well is very important. So can you just maybe share a little bit about how you saw the gap in that not really being something that was being addressed or supported? And some of the ways that you put focus on that?

Jordan Argiriou: Yep. I think there's two sides to that. So I'll share my side and then what the company actually did post, or during and post COVID and what we've set up for the future. Recognition of what was going on was truly that we were all going through the same thing. We all faced the same challenges, the same frustrations. I think us in Melbourne probably had a little bit worse than other people. Anyway, being the most locked down city. Just slightly.

But I think that highlighted to me, it was conversations we were having with people such as Carrado leading the service team here in Australia, other staff in the region leading service teams, they were still in the field. So specifically for service, yes, everyone was struggling on the outside. The service engineers were still expected to get in their cars, to get... If I think of India, to jump on a train where they could cross borders, where there was very strict control.

It all impacted the teams dramatically. But they would be exhausted at the end of the day. Not physically, because they've only gone out for one job because there wasn't much going on. But mentally they were thinking, "Here's another checkpoint, here's another thing where I'm going to get asked to produce papers." So all of that and on top potentially becoming sick because you're in that environment where there are COVID cases right next to you-

Sarah Nicastro: And who do you have at home?

Jordan Argiriou: Correct.

Sarah Nicastro: That you need to protect.

Jordan Argiriou: You've got your family at home, you've got your children. The impact on the kids who were locked in as well with not being able to go too far, et cetera. So from that, we started having different discussions, started thinking differently about how we deal with the teams, what we can do for them. Are there little things we can change every day to make life easier for them?

These are small changes, but for them, they were enormous. Things like reaching out. I mean, Carrado, probably one of the better ones who's also quite passionate about mental health honestly. I'm not talking him up because he's my colleague, but it's more-

Sarah Nicastro: I don't mind.

Jordan Argiriou: No, he's very passionate about it. So again, staying in constant contact with them, asking if they're okay, "Do you need a day? Do you need something else? Can we provide something for your family to be able to be a bit more comfortable during this time?" So we did all of that in the region. And it actually ended up that we retained, I think we retained everyone. I think it was one or two that moved on to other companies though. So it was a natural progression, but we did retain the entire team.

The second part of this is though, what's come during and post COVID is that Qiagen has set up a lot of global user group... Or not user groups. Global collective groups. There's one called, and we put a Qia tag in front of everything. So there's Qia Thrive, Qia Diversity. So there's ones that cover general parenting throughout the pandemic, general parenting post. And now just being a parent, being able to juggle potential economic struggles that are happening for everyone. And country. And then, there's a lot of talks that happen, live face-to-face discussions.

And from those groups, we then come up with initiatives that roll out into the company. So the most positive part for me is that the senior leadership or our executive council are actually a part of all of these groups. So they're sponsoring these groups. I am part of the Qia Thrive group as a global leader in there. And again, things that we talk about, the initiatives that come out of it... and it's all stuff that we are all contributing to. So these aren't topics that we're going, "Okay, they're on this list, we need to address them. There's economic pressure, there's..." These are topics that are coming up in discussion, and if they are considered to be quite critical, then we move forward.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm. So I think there's a couple things I want to say. So going back to the podcast conversation we had, we talked about some of the things you were doing at that time. And just to maybe paraphrase a couple points, I think it really, there was no magic bullet to making it a focus in the business. It was really about treating every conversation as a human conversation and starting with, "How are you? Are you okay?" Looking, sharing vulnerably your own status so that people know it's okay to also share.

So a lot of times there's these big issues and if you're not a mental health expert, it can seem daunting. Like, "Well, how do we accommodate for that?" But when we're dealing with people, it's really, intent is so important. Because I think if you come from a place of genuine intent and people feel that, that in and of itself helps tremendously. But just normalizing the conversation is something I think you said, "You can't just have a retreat once a year that's like a mental health guest speaker, whatever. It needs to be part of the day to day."

Jordan Argiriou: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: And I think that's really important. I also think when we talk about how this topic ties in with the overall talent conversation, a lot of times we say, "People are our most important asset." but they're not an asset, they're people. And people don't want to be perceived or treated as an asset, they want to be treated as human beings. So keeping that perspective and making sure you're connecting on a human level, you're not treating people as a line item on your balance sheet is also important.

Jordan Argiriou: I think as well, there's an aspect to when you've got a team of leaders under you or reporting to you. Under you, sorry, is a bad term to use. Reporting to you. I think you need to remind them to stay grounded. Because quite often a younger, and this isn't the generalization, but a younger leader who has progressed quite quickly can sometimes perceive their team as like, "Okay, I'm in charge now. This is what I'm going to say. This is how it goes." And then they get so caught up in the everyday and the challenges we're facing now with expenditure pressures at a high level, particularly we don't want to pass that down to anyone so we deal with it within our sphere. However, that person that gets caught up in that pressure and then forgets the human side of reporting. So this is where it comes back to having to coach them to remind them to stay grounded. I was in those shoes one day, some time ago. If you don't stay grounded, that team quite quickly disrespects you because you're prompting the disrespect.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jordan Argiriou: They don't respect you as a leader.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. And I think that's a really good point. With the economic pressures that are reality right now, it can be really easy to unintentionally pass that burden onto the frontline.

Jordan Argiriou: Absolutely.

Sarah Nicastro: But at the end of the day, that isn't their responsibility. And so making sure that you don't negatively impact the morale, how they feel about their roles, et cetera, just because the organization itself has these pressures, I think it's a really important part of the discussion.

So I mentioned earlier this idea, going back to the topic of just navigating the need to be cost conscious without sacrificing employee experience or customer experience, what opportunities do you see to better leverage or expand leverage of technology to work smarter instead of harder and to look for ways to help?

Jordan Argiriou: Yeah. I think we heard it this morning that the connectivity, the remote connectivity into the instruments, which is something that we're now investing in quite heavily. So any new instruments will come out with some sort of connectivity and pre prompt to us that there is something wrong. However, the other side is that we are now looking at solutions that will enable us to be able to repair or offer some sort of fix, post sending someone out. So that impacts both, not just the employee, but also... Sorry, not just the cost saving to the company, but also the employee. Because there's less stress on them to be able to have to go out and repair this instrument physically versus being able to do some sort of a remote repair or it can be done elsewhere.

And that, again we heard it at the round table, that the remote connection is something that we're all trying to do. Is it what our customers want today? Not everyone. I think within our space they are asking for it more and more because they want less interaction physically-

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Jordan Argiriou: ...and they want operations to be as smooth as possible. So moving forward, I mean this is going to be the next step. Within the space we work in, the biotechnology side, the healthcare side, this is going to be that next level. To be cost conscious as well, it can be a heavy investment at the beginning. But if you've got everyone aligned, then if you see an outcome that's going to be positive, and again, get that feedback from the market, get the feedback from internal, get the feedback from our engineers as well as to where that should go, then that's where we'll head.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, I agree. There's a ton of potential in remote. And I think that it's goes back, it's maybe the best example right now of how the value proposition to us as an organization and the value proposition to our customers are two very different things. And they have to be articulated differently. If you can speak about it... It's not about saving truck rolls to them, because all that translates into is, "Let's pay you less."

Jordan Argiriou: Correct.

Sarah Nicastro: It's about faster time to resolution, right? So it's making sure the narrative matches the appropriate party.

Jordan Argiriou: Yeah. And I think what you said before about being more customer-centric, that's something that in my opinion, was lost somewhat during COVID. Not because we weren't still customer-centric. We still wanted to keep them online. We'd wanted the lowest downtime possible. However, we also tried to do it in a way where it was the most efficient way and we had to be there quickly and in and out. It was very rushed at one point. Then we got used to the idea of having to do it. Or by used to it, we had to do it. We adjusted.

Now that we've come back, I feel as though, and not just within the service space, but other companies that we see have taken that on board and kept it, but the customer centricity isn't there anymore. It's more of a transactional, the relationship isn't there because they're not on site as often.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Jordan Argiriou: So changing the scope of an engineer to be more than just the person who turns up and fixes it, they already have a relationship but you can improve on that as well. Giving them different skills.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Jordan Argiriou: Again, keeping it customer-centric. So again, and then if you think about a cost in the long run for a company, I mean if that engineer is selling that second, third, fourth instrument, fantastic. Right? I mean...

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Jordan Argiriou: No reductions, I'm just saying.

Sarah Nicastro: Yes. No, for sure. All right, any final thoughts or comments for folks here?

Jordan Argiriou: No I think, look... Yeah, absolutely. First of all, thank you for having me.

Sarah Nicastro: Thanks for coming.

Jordan Argiriou: I appreciate it. And thank you for everyone for turning up and offering valuable feedback as well and having good conversations. But in terms of what we've just discussed, I mean, if we don't... Okay, so on the mental health side, if we don't stay on top of it's going to just consume us. You're going to lose talent. You're not going to be able to retain the right people. If you don't structure your organization to offer engineers and others a pathway to where they want to go, it doesn't have to be specifically up, sideways, wherever. Just offer them something that is a bit more tailored to them and feels like you're listening. Then I think overall, the customer centricity, the savings and everything else will cover themselves because you're looking after your people.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay, thank you.