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January 31, 2024 | 26 Mins Read

Powerful Innovation in a Changing World

January 31, 2024 | 26 Mins Read

Powerful Innovation in a Changing World


Sarah welcomes back Dan McClure, System Innovation Architect and Choreographer, Innovation Ecosystem, and co-author of the soon-to-be released book Do Bigger Things: A Practical Guide for Doing Powerful Innovation in a Changing World to discuss how innovation will change in the next five years and how technologies like AI are impacting the ways organizations innovate.

Sarah Nicastro: Welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. I am thrilled to welcome today's guest back to the Future of Field Service podcast. The guest today is Dan McClure, who is a system innovation architect and strategist or choreographer at Innovation Ecosystem. Dan was first on the podcast episode 124, of course I had to look that up, August of 2021 to talk about innovation, which is his whole area of focus and expertise. And Dan is soon to be releasing... He's co-authored a book that will be released on February 13th called Do Bigger Things: A Practical Guide for Doing Powerful Innovation in a Changing World. Dan, welcome back. 

Dan McClure: Hey, it's really great to be here. Thanks. 

Sarah Nicastro: It's great to have you back. I reference our first conversation to this day. And I didn't realize quite how long it's been because time flies, but there are a lot of things that I think about from that first conversation. And I'm excited to revisit some of those points, but also dig into some different things today. Before we do all of that, why don't you just give everyone a little bit more introduction to yourself? Our listenership has grown quite a bit since you were first on, so tell them anything you'd like to tell them about Dan and Innovation Ecosystem

Dan McClure: Yeah. I am, as you've said, really an innovator, but maybe a different kind of innovator than a lot of folks think of when they bring up that word. I've never been a particularly good technologist sitting in the garage with my soldering iron trying to duplicate Palmer Lucky's experience, et cetera. I am someone who looks at the world and sees Lego blocks and then imagines how we might put those Lego blocks together in a different way. We call it an ecosystem innovation. And it's really been exciting because even since we've talked, so many of the challenges and so many of the opportunities of the world seems to be flowing this way. And so I feel like after a number of years, I've finally come into a world that really wants and needs the kinds of things that I and people like me do. 

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. And the book obviously is talking about in a changing world. And even since 2021, the pace just continues to speed and so we have to sort out what ways we can keep up. I think every company and the leaders within those organizations that would be listening to this podcast are trying to innovate in some way. It can look different for different organizations, but no one, at least they shouldn't be in a place of complacency and very satisfied with that. Everyone is aiming to keep pace and to sort out what their role is in this changing world. I love the way you frame that. And can you talk a little bit... I know we talked about this on the first episode you were on, but I loved it. And this is one of the things that I have thought of many times since. Explain why you like the word and use the word choreographer; what that means in your universe. 

Dan McClure: Yeah. I think it's helpful maybe if I could do just a quick recap of the types of innovation, like the way organizations have responded to all that change. Because I agree with you, there's almost no organization out there now saying, "Well, I'm good. Nothing's going to happen to me." 

Sarah Nicastro: If they are, yeah, it's not for long. You know? Yeah. 

Dan McClure: Yes. It's like nature will sort those folks out. But that doesn't mean that everybody's responding to the challenge in the same way. And the tale of the choreographer is really tied in with this shift in how people are responding. If you were mid-20th century, 1950s, '60s, a lot of the innovation was around really technical detailed work. You would sit down, do a detailed design, create a project plan, and you'd go out and build a bridge or build an airplane. And it was the kind of thing that analysts, engineers, project managers, really helped advance the craft. And so when you look at the innovation books from the '70s and '80s, they're talking about that kind of innovation. 

Then you had Denning come along. And he said, "It's all well and good that you want to build a new factory, but can't you make that factory work better?" And he came up with the idea that you can incrementally improve the operation and performance of things like factories but also things like products, continually making small tweaks and changes that move them forward and makes it more efficient, it makes them more valuable. And so there was- 

Sarah Nicastro: A lot of process-based? 

Dan McClure: Well, it's process, but also we've seen a lot of feature-based stuff. Go out and talk to your customer and find out what new feature they want and add the feature to your mobile app or to your physical product. And so that became another layer of innovation. And it didn't invalidate the previous step, but you got this new layer. 

And then 2000 comes, the whole digital web. 2007, mobile phones are launched with the iPhone. And you have this entire new digital open field for people to rush into, and so you got the idea of digital product innovation based out of Silicon Valley product managers, user experience designers. Eric Reese is the titular god of this practice where you fail fast, you have minimum viable products. And it's resulted in millions of mobile apps being out there. All of those roles of innovation are tools that leaders are adopting. 

But here's the thing: The world is now getting more complex and messier challenges. When we talked about the idea of change happening faster, you said, "Everybody needs to respond to change that's happening faster." It's not just faster, it's oh my God, we're being run over by a truck kind of innovation. And it's not the sort of thing that you're going to incrementally improve yourself, it's not the sort of thing that you're going to be able to launch a mobile app for, you're going to have to really reimagine your entire organization. Or if you're dealing with something like climate change, you're going to have to imagine a big, complex solution. And therefore, you need a kind of innovation that's designed to do complex stuff, which is a really long way to get to the point that choreographers are the innovators who help you do complex stuff. 

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. And how would you describe what traits make choreographers uniquely able to do that? 

Dan McClure: Yeah. If we imagine what complexity is about, it's about having a lot of different parts, right? 

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm. 

Dan McClure: And hooking them together in new and original ways. Well, what kind of traits would be helpful there? You're going to be a big picture thinker. You're going to see more than just a narrow challenge. You're going to be a natural generalist. Instead of a jack of all trades and a master of none and you slinking away into the corner because you haven't been able to focus, you say you're very proud of that. I've learned all sorts of different stuff, and I can talk to you about all sorts of different things and bring them together. 

And finally, there's a rebel storyteller involved with this. You're in a position where you see the big picture, you know how to bring lots of different pieces together, but a lot of folks can't do that. And therefore, you have to be the powerful storyteller that brings them along. And you've got to be willing to cross the boundaries and barriers of the status quo to help them make that change. Big picture, generalist, rebel, storyteller. You get those four things together and you can go muck about in the world. 

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. I think that the reason I love this is I identify with those traits very much, right? 

Dan McClure: Yeah, yeah. 

Sarah Nicastro: But here's my question then. For folks like me that hear that and think, yes, that's me, what if you are within an organization that is maybe more traditional, maybe more accustomed to some of those earlier phases or variations of innovation you spoke through? How do you position that ability in an organization that isn't already doing it, that doesn't already get it? 

Dan McClure: Yeah. Well, this is $64,000 question for choreographers. 

Sarah Nicastro: And to the listeners, bless Dan because I'm completely off script, so thank you for going with me. 

Dan McClure: Well, did I mention the other thing about choreographers is that we don't stay on script very well? Either as listeners or talkers. Yeah. At the grimace side of this is that you don't, and you get crushed by the jobs. In some organizations we go into and we look at them and we say, "Where are your choreographers?" And they're like, "Well, we don't have any of those. We've got project managers and we've got detailed..." And I say, "I bet you I can find them." And I go look for all the poor performing project managers. And those poor performing project managers are often choreographers in pain. That's what happens with some of them; you just basically get fit into a box that you're miserable in. 

There's a second strategy, which is you go rogue. You get a little bit of space. Maybe somebody isn't paying attention to you. This is what I did on my first job is after hours, I was going off and doing choreographer stuff without necessarily any permission to do that. In some cases, you can find a sponsor for somebody to help you go rogue. You just go rogue. The challenge with being rogue is that eventually you get caught, and that means you may get pulled back into line, it may mean you get fired. There's a really cool study that was put out a number of years by Bozalan that basically said the people who are this choreographer profile as executives get fired a lot more than the other types of executives. 

But the best scenario is that you actually use your storytelling skills. You use your ability to make people understand complex challenge, and you bring other people along with you. And it would be nice if they were already there, in which case you just revel in the fact that you've got a supportive environment. But oftentimes, because this is new to people, you're going to have to actually help them take the journey along with you. 

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I think the rogue piece sounds very lonely. 

Dan McClure: But it can be exciting in a rogue sort of lonely way. 

Sarah Nicastro: Right. And I think what's interesting to me about this is we're talking... We've talked about how innovation has changed, and I want to talk next about how you think it will continue to change. But I do think for the people out there that are identifying with these choreographer traits, I think one thing I have found myself trying to tap into more is patience. Because I think those organizations that aren't quite there yet will have to get there. And so sometimes, I think it's biding your time while also honing your storytelling skills, right? And so I think- 

Dan McClure: Yeah. 

Sarah Nicastro: ... I don't know if an innate characteristic of a choreographer is impatience, but at least for me, I have not always been someone that's willing to play the long game, right? 

Dan McClure: Yeah. 

Sarah Nicastro: But I think to some degree, because of the fact that this isn't slowing down, it's not going to go away, companies are going to have to catch up to this need. I wouldn't suggest anyone stay miserable in a role that they're miserable in by any means, but I think part of it is waiting for the characteristics and the culture to catch up to one another. Does that make sense? 

Dan McClure: Yeah, although I must admit I have that same sort of urgency, so if I'm not going to be a hypocrite, I will tell you I've never been very good at that. One thing I would observe though is since we've last talked, I've really seen a sea change in the recognition of the types of problems that organizations face and the need for this type of response. We do a lot of work with humanitarian organizations like the UN and international NGOs and things like that. And the UN was not the place where you saw a lot of pioneering, unstructured thinking, and partly because of the job they're doing; it's hard, difficult; people's lives depend on it. 

A couple of months after we last talked, I was part of a UNOCHA meeting. And they had brought half a dozen big organizations from around the world to talk about their latest initiatives. And what was interesting is every one of them was suddenly talking about them as complex systems challenges. And I would've said six months before that, almost none of them would've been. There is this kind of sea change, I think, going on where organizations are realizing they need to act boldly and in big ways, and that you can't do that with the techniques and tools of the past. Yes, maybe we need to be patient, but maybe we don't need to be quite as patient as we would've before. 

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. No, that makes sense. Okay, if you were to get out your crystal ball and think about... We talked about these iterations of innovation. Where do you think we're going in the next five years? What do you think is going to be the biggest themes? 

Dan McClure: I guess I don't have another revolution in innovation after the one that we've already seen, partly because I think we've been filling in the spaces of different types of innovation challenges. And this ecosystem innovation where you're putting together complex stuff fills in the last block that was missing. I could certainly be wrong about that, but it's still very early days so there's- 

Sarah Nicastro: Do you know what I wonder? 

Dan McClure: Yeah, shoot. 

Sarah Nicastro: And maybe this doesn't fit, or maybe it's a characteristic of but not the next thing. I think a lot of it is going to come down to humanity. I at least see this shift, and I think it's tied in part to what you've said, but we've innovated so fast in these product-related and then- 

Dan McClure: Technical function. 

Sarah Nicastro: Right. And then the digital. And it's taken us more and more and more away from humanity. And I think that we're not going to be able to undo anything that's happened. And I'm not even saying that we take focus away from it, but I think that you see in the issues companies have around hiring and retaining talent, I see at least this big wave in leadership of sort of a very old-school mentality to a much more people-centric mentality. I think from a customer perspective, you've had such focus on and demand for speed, information, simplicity. And while no one is saying those things aren't important, I think what we're starting to lack is human connection. And I wonder if there might be something to that. 

Dan McClure: Yeah. Well, one of the things that's interesting, if you look back on those prior three methodologies, they have humanity in there, humanity in a very narrowly constrained kind of environment. If you're developing a digital product, you're paying attention to the user, but you're paying attention to one user with one need so you're simplifying humanity. The thing, once you start building up an ecosystem that involves people, organizations, technology, resources, and you're mixing all of those together, you're deliberately embracing all the elements of humanity. You're talking about trade-offs, motivations, rewards, ethics. And I think that's what's exciting is this next stage of innovation, it isn't either/or, it's humanity is a necessary component of what we're doing. 

Sarah Nicastro: That's a good point. It's how does it all fit? Which is what makes it the ecosystem. 

Dan McClure: Yeah, how do you assemble something where everybody wants to participate, everybody's doing the right kind of thing? There's no real bad results out of the whole thing. And those are complex, messy questions which you need a choreographer to help you work through. 

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. No, I get that for sure. Okay, let's then talk a little bit about how I would say 2023, the biggest buzz was AI, at least in the world that I'm existing in. And it was interesting because for me, it was met with very mixed reactions. I had service and business leaders that were full steam ahead on the possibilities, and I had ones that were saying, "I'm so sick of hearing about this." How do you see continuing advancement in technologies like AI factoring into the innovation equation? 

Dan McClure: Imagine AI is a Lego block. Somebody's arrived at our door and they have a case of new Lego blocks that you can use. There's a couple of ways you could do something with that. One, you could go find an existing function, pop out that old function, and put in the new Lego block. Imagine we've got a doctor's office. We could put in an AI to help support scheduling doctor's appointments or we could put in an AI to check prescription that are being made by the doctor. This would be taking your existing ecosystem, popping out the old Lego block and putting a new Lego block. Perfectly valid. 

After a while, it begins to be like, so? It's all better. Yes, it's nice, and you've got to be concerned about ethics and issues around doing that. If you're making a movie and the Lego block you're popping out is the live actor and you're putting in an AI version, that's got some more issues maybe more than just scheduling doctor's appointments. But those are pretty straightforward advances, and they don't fundamentally change the ecosystem you're working on. I would put those back in the older versions of what is innovation about? 

Where I think it gets exciting for me as a choreographer is saying, "What if I take that piece of AI and I use it to reimagine the entire ecosystem so it unlocks a completely new approach?" Let me do a little imagining around what healthcare might look like. What if the AI became your doctor? The AI was constantly monitoring your Fitbit or your Apple Watch, the AI is constantly watching your environment in your house, the AI is tracking all the health data in your community, and it's also looking at your health history and matching it up to people in Phoenix who have similar health concerns. Now you have an entirely different way of prescribing and monitoring care. 

And yes, you might still go to your physical doctor's office for something, but the ecosystem around this is completely different. And when you start doing something like that, then the game changes, then entirely different forms of care are available. For people who might've been left out of the care system before, the barriers of, "I can't get to a healthcare provider, I don't have the money for a healthcare provider. There's no doctors in my area," all of those things are transformed. And that's what you see with some of these big ecosystem shifts. That's where I think it's exciting is when the technology unlocks a new ecosystem. 

Sarah Nicastro: Then the role of the choreographer, though, is to keep afoot in both of those worlds, right? Any company has to- 

Dan McClure: Yeah. 

Sarah Nicastro: You're not leaping from plugging out one Lego block to a whole new ecosystem, you need to be able to take the more incremental approach while looking toward but what does this mean for us in five or 10 years? And then- 

Dan McClure: Yes, I'm going to challenge you there because I think, yes, you still probably should be looking at how do I swap AI at specific spots? If I'm a doctor's office, I should be making my prescription practices better, I'd say. But the time to invent a new ecosystem is almost always now. The path to get to that new ecosystem is not step-by-step change. Think about it. When the Ride-sharing concept came up, it wasn't cab companies that made the step-by-step shift up, it was somebody coming up with- 

Sarah Nicastro: It was disruption. 

Dan McClure: ... a new ecosystem that came in. The question is do you want somebody else to invent that new ecosystem or do you want to? 

Sarah Nicastro: Right. Yeah. No, that's really interesting. Okay, let's talk about the book, Do Bigger Things. Tell us a little bit about what it's all about, but also what prompted you guys to put this out into the world? 

Dan McClure: As we've already talked, there's a lot of excitement that both Jenny and I have around this idea of doing ecosystem innovations, making these disruptive new ways of doing things in the world and the choreographer roles that come along with that. The challenge we always had was people would say, "Oh, good. Tell me what book I should go read." 

And what we found was there were really two problems. One, the ideas and concepts were scattered all over the place. Here's a list of forty-three books that you could go and get little pieces of this. And the other thing is it was still being held hostage by the PhD academics and the systems engineering optimization folks. Even when you did go read it, it was a little bit of modeling theory, et cetera. What we felt like was necessary and what we've seen has been true in the past is new innovation practices get adopted when the idea behind the innovation is laid out clearly, the roles are laid out clearly, and then there is a straightforward understanding of what the practice looks like. And we just didn't see that anywhere so we ate a little bit of our own dog food and did a choreographer bit around how do we present a complete picture of this ecosystem innovation practice? 

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. What can people expect to find in the book? Who is it best for? And what will they be able to take away from it? 

Dan McClure: We really tried to write it in a very accessible style. The book is based around stories and examples. We tell the story of choreographers doing amazing things with cataract surgeries in India and commercial innovators like Airbnb and community innovators who did amazing things during the pandemic. It's around these ideas of if you're going to understand something as complex as ecosystem innovation, you need to see some ecosystem innovations to see how that fits. That's the structure we've used. 

We lay it out really basically three parts. What's the idea? Why do you need to do this? What are the people? And then what's the practice? And if you are somebody who wants to be a choreographer, this should be your handbook is our goal. If you're somebody who owns a gnarly, ugly problem or whose company is about to be run over by a bus, this shows you a path forward, and then you can go out and get your choreographer. 

Sarah Nicastro: Okay, very good. When we think about organizations who are today navigating change, trying to sort through what type of innovation they should be focused on, et cetera, what would you suggest they be thinking most about keeping in mind? 

Dan McClure: I think all of this is rooted in understanding just how big a change you need to thrive in the years ahead. This is true whether you're trying to run a business and Amazon's going to come in and just completely disrupt your marketplace, or it's true if you're an activist and you want to do something like make a real progress on climate change or want to make real progress on inequities in the world. You need to understand that little haphazard steps forward is not going to be enough for you. I think that's the beginning part. And as a leader or somebody who's actually driving their own actions, just embracing I need to be aspiring to make a bigger impact than simply the next mobile app or a little bit better change in this or that. 

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I'm wondering, though, one of the challenge has to be for organizations particularly that have a long history to figure out how to have the objectivity they need to determine how big that change needs to be. I think when you are the one that's been a part of what's always worked for so long, is it possible to be objective? Or is there a practice of involving the right people to really assess what the innovation need is? 

Dan McClure: Yeah, I think you need to invite some choreographers into the conversation. You're right, if your entire world has been focused on making the status quo work really well, you're going to be the kind of person who that's an important question for. And it's also you're going to have an investment deep into the status quo. One thing I think, though, that can help is changing the question, not asking, "Looking back, how much do I need to change what I've got?" But rather looking forward and asking, "What's the big new possibility here? And then how do I get there from what I've got?" And I think that makes it maybe not less scary, but certainly more exciting. 

Sarah Nicastro: To me, this is the point where this conversation ties in with some of the leadership conversations that I've had recently on the podcast, because I mentioned earlier that I see this shift in more traditional approaches being replaced by a more modern approach. And there's layers to that, but I think we have leadership that has been rooted a lot in command and control, right? 

Dan McClure: Absolutely. 

Sarah Nicastro: And those leaders have historically felt the responsibility of knowing what's right and knowing what needs to come next; a personal responsibility. I think this is where a modern view of leadership is important because I think more modern leaders are humbled in knowing they don't know it all, they don't need to know it all, but they need to surround themselves with diversity of thought, right? 

Dan McClure: Yep. 

Sarah Nicastro: Because when you can do that and when you actually can genuinely ask... You may have choreographers, like we talked about earlier, within your business that are miserable because they're just trying to do the job that you've told them to do that have a lot of these ideas, so I think part of it is just becoming more open to the idea of welcoming creativity and brainstorming and listening to what people think and not subscribing to that very outdated mentality of, "Well, if I lead this organization or this function, I should have all of the answers." I think that puts people in a position of weakness. 

Dan McClure: Yeah. And I think there's kind of three steps here. If there's the top-down control, "You're going to do what I say," then the next step up, as you inferred, was you have permission to talk to me. You have permission to bring ideas, etc. For me, the most exciting organizations are the ones where we see where the organization leader is saying, "I demand that you bring big, bold ideas." And this is what we're about is big, bold ideas. And you can just feel the energy change in those organizations because when the leader stops saying, "I'm grudgingly going to let you pitch things to me," and more saying, "The future is threatening to us if we don't act boldly," and just keeps reiterating that message in everything they do, you just get a different kind of energy. 

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, yeah. We're talking about the organizational view. In terms of individuals, how do you recommend leaders that want to help drive innovation, how do they stay energized? How do they ensure they're effective? What advice do you have for those people? And obviously reading the book is one step, but just if you were to share a couple of those things. 

Dan McClure: Well, of course the answer is read the book no matter. 

Sarah Nicastro: Yes, of course. 

Dan McClure: Do you need to make tomato sauce? Read the book. No. I think it's really three parts here. First, it's understand the challenge and get excited about the future. I find, and I think this is true of most choreographers but I also think it's true about most leaders, being excited about what's ahead just makes all the rest of the stuff better. And if you're not living in dread but instead thinking, this is a world of huge change, and that empowers me to do something great, that just pushes you along. 

The second bit, though, is you've got to make it easier to actually follow through on that vision. Now imagine if you wanted to rebuild your house and completely new floor plan. If you wanted to rebuild my house, which is this 100 year old house that I'm sitting in, you'd have to raise the whole thing, flatten it, and then build it up again. That would be traumatic. And I think that's the way a lot of folks see organizational change is we're having to take a bulldozer and just smash everything and then put the pieces back up. No wonder everybody finds that an awful experience to go through. 

On the other hand, if you had a Lego house, what you could say is, "Here's the new future. We need to readjust it." Pull the Lego parts together and put them together in new ways. That becomes less painful, and it allows you to more quickly and effectively adapt to new opportunities. And so this is, I think, the organizational design part that comes along with the leadership. It's one thing to tell people you've got to change and you've got to embrace these new opportunities, but you've got to build an organization that's designed for change. And making it more like Lego blocks, for lack of a better metaphor, I think it's a big part of that. 

Sarah Nicastro: What do you think makes an organization more able to change? The idea of the foundation of the house versus the Lego blocks, is it communication? What are the elements that allow that agility? 

Dan McClure: I think there's just some how do you build out the pieces of the organization so that there's lines between them? Ironically, modular things have stronger lines so that you can hook them up in different ways. It might seem intuitively like you want to have infinite communication, but you really want to have ways to know how people interact and communicate with each other. 

Technology can make a huge difference. I think one of the most underestimated management decisions that Amazon made was that every piece of technology they built would be able to be deployed separately in the cloud. And as a result, they built an organization whose technology was designed to do new things. And you see them doing radically new things. They enter healthcare, they enter publishing. They've entered all these new fields, and partly it's because they've got Lego blocks that allow them to do that. I think you can use your technology, you can use your organizational design, and then you've got to get managers who are on board with the idea. 

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. You talked about the mindset of, I guess I'm paraphrasing, but not looking at what lies ahead as overwhelming dread, but more so excitement around the possibilities. And we talked about some different aspects. Any other advice you can share on mindset or tools or practices that you think help move toward impactful change? 

Dan McClure: Yeah. One of the things that came out of the last generation of innovation practices, the digital product innovation, was the useful concept that failure wasn't a catastrophe, that risk is okay. And in fact, we should be failing fast. And I think there's a lot of context where that makes sense. If you're trying out a lot of little ideas and you want to find out which one sticks, failing fast is cool because then you don't invest too much in an idea that didn't work. 

If you're going to be building ecosystems, you don't get that opportunity. You don't get the chance to say, "I built out an entirely new ecosystem. Ooh, I've failed. I'm going to throw that all away." And in fact, every move you make, because now we're involving people and we're involving organizations and we're involving real decisions and choices by folks, you don't even get to test it a whole bunch of different times. You've got to test it, understand what's going on, and then adapt. 

I think one of the biggest shifts that you're going to see with innovation is moving away from the idea of failing fast and just throwing out the losers to how do I learn and adapt quickly and well? And it's a different skill. Learning is still important, getting fast feedback still important, but now your response is, "How do I take this big, ungainly, messy thing that I'm building and adapt it based on that part?" 

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Not throw it away, but figure out how... Yeah. 

Dan McClure: Yeah, continue to morph it. 

Sarah Nicastro: Yep. Yeah, that makes sense. 

Dan McClure: It's more like a marriage with the future than a first date. 

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. No, that's great. All right, I love this. This has been a great conversation. The book comes out February 13th, right

Dan McClure: Yeah. 

Sarah Nicastro: And where will everyone be able to find that and you? Let them know how they can connect if they want, et cetera. 

Dan McClure: Yeah. The most obvious place... And we're trying to make this available as much as possible around the world because the work we're doing and the choreographers we engage with are really global. That's part of what makes it so exciting. Amazons and all your different Amazons around the world, we should have that available. There will be availability in bookstores, but that will be dependent on which market you're in and to what extent there's printing. I would say Amazon and those other online channels are the best place to grab things. We'll have it in digital audiobook. We've got a really cool Aussie speaking narrator for our audiobook. It's fun. 

And then, yeah, if you want to reach out to us, is the place. And just to let you know, as a preview, we're setting up a community for choreographers, which will be hosted on LinkedIn. And so that's another place you'll be able to hook up with not only us but our peers in the choreographer community. 

Sarah Nicastro: Awesome. And when will that be happening? 

Dan McClure: I don't know. We're still building the ecosystem. We're hoping in weeks kind of thing as opposed to months and months. But it's work in progress. 

Sarah Nicastro: Follow Innovation Ecosystem on LinkedIn, I would imagine- 

Dan McClure: Yep. 

Sarah Nicastro: ... to hear more about the community. And we'll do our best to link everything in the show notes as well so people know where to go to find everything we've talked about. But thank you so much, Dan, for the wonderful insights. I appreciate it. 

Dan McClure: Yeah, this is such exciting stuff and such exciting times. I really appreciate the chance to get on and ramble on about it. 

Sarah Nicastro: No, it is exciting. And I think one of the things that's important and what I like about the idea of what you're doing with the community is the more you can surround yourself in content, in interactions with people who are excited about the possibility instead of nervous or threatened, it helps you feed off of that energy. And so I think the idea of the community is great, and I'm personally very excited to read the book. 

Dan McClure: All right. Well, thank you very much. Have a great weekend. 

Sarah Nicastro: All right. Thanks, you too. You can find more by visiting us at While you're there, be sure to sign up for the Future of Field Service Insider, which is our monthly newsletter, to make sure that you don't miss any of our articles or podcasts. The Future of Field Service podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at And as always, thank you for listening. Okay.