Author: sarah.nicastro@ifs.com

March 15, 2023 | 28 Mins Read

Schneider Electric’s 3 Pillars of Service Transformation

March 15, 2023 | 28 Mins Read

Schneider Electric’s 3 Pillars of Service Transformation

Sarah welcomes Ravichandra Kshirsagar, Vice President Digital Buildings, Commercial and Services at Schneider Electric, to talk about how he’s embracing service of today while preparing for the service of the future.

Sarah Nicastro: Welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today we're going to be getting an inside look at Schneider Electric's three pillars of service transformation. I'm excited to welcome to the podcast today, Ravichandra Kshirsagar, who is the Vice President Digital Buildings, Commercial and Services at Schneider Electric. Ravi, welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast.

Ravichandra Kshirsagar: Thank you Sarah, and thanks for inviting me. I like your podcast, so very happy to be here.

Sarah Nicastro: Thank you. Yes, we've had a number of Schneider folks on and it was only a matter of time before you got here, so happy to have you.

Ravichandra Kshirsagar: Yeah. It’s a great company. Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, no, for sure. That's one of the things I always say when I talk to folks is when you have the opportunity to talk to different people in the same company but across the globe and they all feel positively about where they work, then you know the company's doing something right, because it's not just by chance. So that's great. Okay, so before we get into the transformation part of our discussion, just tell our audience a little bit about yourself, your role, anything you want to share about Schneider overall, et cetera.

Ravichandra Kshirsagar: So first of all, Sarah, congratulations on pronouncing my name correctly.

Sarah Nicastro: Thank you.

Ravichandra Kshirsagar: My name is Ravichandra. You can address me as Ravi during this podcast. So my role in Schneider Electric, I lead the commercial and services globally. So which has three main elements, I lead the demand, correct creation and sales effort. Also, our offer launches and prioritization of offers that we want to build for our future. Second, I lead country investments and business plan, especially in our emerging markets where we want to grow our market share, we want to multiply our market share by two. And third part of my role is to accelerate digitization of our services business. So modernize and digitize, which is a key pillar and a massive focus for all of us. So that's in a nutshell my role in Schneider Electric. It's a great business growing at a very healthy space, and we have right market trends out there that tell us that we are in the right space.

On me, I've spent my career across mobile networks, industry as well as energy industry with Schneider Electric. Schneider Electric, now 12 years. Previous to that I was in mobile networks industry, roughly seven, eight years. I've worked in Southeast Asia, Middle East, Latin America, traveled a lot across the globe and learned from different cultures. I'm really passionate about sustainability net-zero, and I'm passionate about this topic of digitization, how we move from tangible to the intangible world and monetizing all of that and bringing value to our customers.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, I love that. And I think those three areas of focus that you have, it sounds like it would keep you very busy, but also really exciting the role services plays across those. When you think about opportunity for growth, when you think about differentiation and when you think about the role digitalization can play in taking so many practices out of service that negatively contribute to the environment, there's so much potential to. Not get rid of field service, but just streamline things in a way that we can do it much more intelligently. So it has to be exciting that you have so much potential to work with in your role.

Ravichandra Kshirsagar: And then also if you look at typical industrial companies out there who want to transform, what happens is services are always an afterthought. When you are designing your offers, your products, you design services later, I think that is something we need to change. The offers that you design, the solutions that you design, you need to think about services for your customers at the onset. You need to think about lifecycle, and that really changes the game with how we launch those offers, how we bring value to your customers. And the more we do that, the better we get at delivering services that bring value.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, that's a good point. I was in Denmark a few weeks ago doing a discussion and that was one of my points in my presentation is if you really want to see is the potential that's there, service has to become part of the company's DNA. You see companies that they want to embrace it, but only to the point that it doesn't infringe on the product legacy. It really has to be everything meshes together and it becomes part of the company's identity. So I think that's a really good point. There's no way to get the most out of the things you're trying to do, even if for you it's top of mind, but for the rest of the business it was an afterthought. It doesn't work that way. It really has to be at the table in all parts of the consideration and strategy. And to your point, the customer value proposition, it has to be right there with everything else. Yeah.

Ravichandra Kshirsagar: A lot of these companies out there and the way we have always thought about services as an afterthought, as I mentioned, getting into services and delivering those value added services is rigorous. It's tough. So one side there is a challenge designing those services, deploying those services, delivering value, making sure customers recognize those values and value and pay for it with that differentiation effort. On the other hand, there's a massive opportunity, what you learn with your customers. You really learn how your customers are using your offer, how they're using your technology, what are they doing with it. You go deep into the processes of your customers and that's where you find gold. When you go deep into their organization with their people into their processes, that's where you find gold. That's where you conceptualize the next level of service. That's where digital transformation actually happens, what we are talking about.

You can't just define product which comes out of the box and is going to transform overnight. No, you really need to go deeper over there. And for us, we are lucky. I think we have great customers, we have global accounts that work and deploy their operations across the globe. We have our multi-country accounts, we have our country accounts in certain segments like life sciences or healthcare to the likes of hyperscalers. That gives us ability to innovate, co-innovate with them and bring those services faster to market in a much more agile manner. We do not want to lose that ability. We want to even further fast track, grow with them and build businesses with them. I think that's a massive opportunity for us.

Sarah Nicastro: So that's a good point. So when you think about the way the needs of your customers have evolved over the last five or 10 years, so there was a point where these digital buildings, smart buildings, they haven't been around forever it's been progressing and continues to progress. But when you think about what are the biggest changes taking place right now within your customer base, what does that world look like? If someone on the outside were wanting to understand, how does Schneider enable those smart buildings, digital buildings for customers? What are those customers needing today?

Ravichandra Kshirsagar: Yeah, that's a very good question. Look at the times that we are living in today. You go into the capital markets reports or investor presentation of the Fortune 500 companies. Take the top 100 or take 10, choose any 10. Every company out there is talking about sustainability, net-zero, whichever industry they're in. They're talking about digitization, they're talking about services. Massive opportunity in the times that will live to impact our world positively. And that's what we are working on. So when you come to the world of buildings, 40% of the carbon contribution comes from buildings. 30% of the energy consumption comes from buildings. 80% of the buildings that will exist in 2050 have already been built. And same applies to the world today. So when you look at this need for sustainability, when you look at the world we are living in, there is a massive need to accelerate certain trends.

So delivering on sustainability to our customers, net-zero vision, delivering on hyperefficiency, bringing down those energy consumption. You look at Europe and the challenge that we have on energy today in Europe and across Europe. Third one, resiliency, remote operations, cybersecurity with certain things going around the world, being cybersecurity is so important. And finally, comfort or environment. Delivering to the needs of the people that occupy those buildings, especially to bring people back into offices in the times that we live in, as in when they're coming back and in that hybrid environment that we talk about. So those are the main needs that our customers are putting in front of us. Now, good news is that we have technologies that can deliver to those needs. The question is how we deploy, how we ensure that we deliver those outcomes in the right phase, manner to our customers so they see value, they're able to invest further into those technologies. So that's what is going on in digital buildings, buildings market at this time.

And more and more we are moving from the world of unconnected legacy systems, non-cyber secure, all of those what existed five, 10 years back when the mindset was, if it works well, why replace it? In the world where, no, I want to get more out of this portfolio of buildings. I want to make it carbon-neutral. I want to make sure it's efficient in the way it consumes energy. I want to make it interact with the grids, the microgrids integration. I want to make sure people who are entering those build buildings are comfortable. They also have access to the services. And then in future we'll have buildings who would even look at you as an individual. Sarah, when she enters the building, she enters at this time, she likes her coffee at this time, she accesses this particular space, she likes this type of temperature. The possibilities are phenomenal. We just need to imagine and build a world that both delivers on those sustainability needs and people needs.

Sarah Nicastro: So I have one question and then I'll add one thought. The question is, and I'm sure we don't have time to get too deep into this, but as I'm hearing what you're saying, and I'm just thinking about not only what it means for Schneider, but how it applies to other industries. You said that 80% of the buildings that will exist in, I can't remember what year you said.

Ravichandra Kshirsagar: 2050.

Sarah Nicastro: 2050 already exist and same thing. So to me what that means as someone who's delivering products and services together is when you're designing something new. So I relate this back to companies that I've interviewed that manufacture huge medical equipment or they manufacture huge machinery or what have you, that stays in place for a very long time. It's easy to think about innovation from the sense of incorporating it into new designs. Because that's simple. You're building from scratch. But in this situation, what it means is this importance of figuring out how the products and the services work together is amplified because you're going into existing buildings and retrofitting, redesigning to an extent upgrading the infrastructure to meet current needs and you'll have to continue to do that. So I think about that the same way I think about that when I talk to any manufacturer of a product. You can think about how you design new to make it modern, but that only applies to this small subset that are buying today. You also are left with, to your point, 80% of the buildings already are there. So how do we modernize those and get them to where we need them to be?

Ravichandra Kshirsagar: Yeah, I'm just taking some notes. So I respond to all your points. I think first one design and it's a very interesting point that you mentioned. I was looking at the launch event of the first iPhone by Steve Jobs, an amazing event, and I think I recommend everyone to look at that. Still so relevant. What great Jobs did is he separated the hardware from software device, device hardware and the software and he said the innovation is going to happen at the software level. That's where we are going to launch new features, new things. And that's what is happening with iPhone today. You see them launching software version with new features that are coming. Your hardware could be two or three generations back, but still you are able to access those features.

Sarah Nicastro: The usability, the functionality, the experience, the intuitiveness comes from the software.

Ravichandra Kshirsagar: Exactly. And this is where industries like us have transformed and we are very proud that we are the leaders when you talk about that transformation, software and digital is the core of that transformation. How you separate your hardware from the software, how you innovate on software, how you add new features, launch new versions so that when your customers choose to invest into your technology, they future-proof their investments, that's the whole core of the principles. And you want to give that confidence to your customer that yes, you have invested in the right technology which is open, it'll operate across different systems will bring you new features that will help you extract further value out of that technology. And I will work with the same hardware for a period of time until we have to launch new hardware that needs that processing capacity, we should work with that software.

So that's the overall vision. Then coming back to those 80% building stock, that's the biggest challenge and that's the biggest opportunity in front of us. If you look at 40% of carbon emission and 80% of the building, the equation is same. The biggest opportunity lies in the install base that is out there, the retrofitting, the renovation that you were mentioning. And here you could go with two possible scenarios. One is digital first. So you go at that portfolio, you look at those buildings and you retrofit them with digital. Something in a simple words, a data and analytics software that helps you extract first level of understanding about that asset, how that is used, the consumption that is having, and the first level of impact on outcomes that you can deliver on that portfolio. And that's already being done.

And the second is full modernization in a phased manner. So here you start with software, you replace the software, you keep the hardware below similar if it operates with the same software in most cases we are able to do that. In some cases we need to completely repair and replace the hardware as well. And then you move that building or that asset to the new world and then you track his journey into delivering those sustainability efficiency and then comfort needs. In each of these cases, it depends on the customers. Now, if you are a customer of imaginary real estate portfolio across a country like Australia or US, in that case digital first approach is good approach to start. You put that digital layer on top, you identify all the first level outcomes, you go at it.

And that's all maintenance approach, changing the way you maintain that asset or you take it to condition based maintenance from preventative, ad hoc break fix, two condition based maintenance. And the second case you completely transform that asset to attract new talents, to attract new occupants who are able to pay higher dollar value from what you are gaining on that asset today. And with that investment you can expect 20% more rents on typical buildings. So that 80% is very important to address that first and ensure that technology really brings outcomes to those.

Sarah Nicastro: The other thing I was going to say more of a thought is these conversations get very complex quickly because of all of the different considerations that go into this, but at the end of the day, we talked at the beginning about how services has to be top of mind. It has to be at the table, it has to be part of a business' identity. And really when you think about how to achieve that, really it's this focus on outcomes. We talk about outcomes based service all the time, but I don't know that we really simplify what that means. And I think that at the end of the day, this idea that when you talk about the level of complexity you're talking about in the software and the hardware and the pace at which things evolve today. Customers, they care, but what do they care about?

They care about the outcome. They care about what those changes mean to their goals and initiatives and Schneider's ability to support that. And so I think for a business that's struggling to really evolve, I think if you think about this from the sense of when we talk about outcomes-based service, we're talking about really two things. Stepping away from your mental ties to product and services and looking at those things cohesively as the outcome. And then also to your point, which is so important, you can't deliver outcomes to customers without really deeply understanding what their needs are. I think I'm really super simplifying this, but this people get really hung up for a lot of reasons. You have all of this legacy thinking and processes, et cetera, that keeps people in the weeds at the end of the day embracing this idea of today's customers really don't give a damn about X product and Y service.

They care about what outcome you can provide them. And as a business doing that means really understanding what their needs are because you can't just start ad hoc packaging up your existing products and services and hope that it meets their need. You have to really understand what their business looks like, what pain points they have, what goals they look like, and then that's how you build those outcomes. So I can understand with the advances in digitalization, I'm assuming for Schneider and its customers, that complexity has continued to increase. Which means your customers are relying more and more on you to master that complexity in a way that says to them, here's how we can help you. Your goal is to reduce your CO2 or your environmental impact by X. Here's how we can help you. Your goal is to reduce your energy costs by Y. Here's how we can help you. So can you talk a little bit about, in some ways the commercial relationship, the shift from CapEx to OpEx, this idea of delivering outcomes instead of delivering things and services. What has that looked like with your customers as you have gotten closer to their needs and really worked toward creating value propositions that are outcomes based?

Ravichandra Kshirsagar: So to step back a bit, I would divide the conversation into two parts. So first understanding the customers, then understanding the outcomes. So let's focus on the first part, understanding our customers. So I would divide the whole customer discussion into two main streams. Number one is the segments. Segments means customer is part of the group with homogeneous type of needs that they have. So customers in healthcare, hotels, life sciences, data centers, airports, commercial real estate, all of them in that group would have similar type, similar needs. And you could share those needs across those customer groups called segments. And the second is the type of customer. Is he a global customer, a strategic customer who deploys the same offer across the globe or he builds across the globe? Is he a multi-country customer in specific geographies across countries they're building, or is he only present in a country and that's where he is there. And then you could have the last category, which is the diffused in that country. So just to simply simplify a bit the discussion.

The first thing, whenever you talk about outcomes or digitization, it's very important to understand your customer ecosystem, your customer landscape in those dimensions, having deep understanding of what segments do you serve and what type of customers in those segments you serve. Having those understanding and that understanding in a deeper sense helps you prioritize and focus very important in this type of discussion of outcome based services. So then you have customers who are in data centers, you have the top customer. Their needs are very similar. They want standardized architecture, they want two RSLA or two Rservice on site. They would be very open to remote services with some conditions attached around that. You have life sciences customers who are building vaccine production, medical devices, all of that. Their needs are very similar on environment management and type of services they're looking over there. Likewise for healthcare airports, so you can go on and on.

Then in that dimension, you have your top customers who are looking to innovate, who want those outcomes yesterday. They want to go very fast because they have committed to their investors, their employees, their markets. So in that you define your priority. Normally if you want to pilot a service and you want to go fast on outcome based services, you focus on that top of the pyramid. This is where you can pilot, you can co-innovate, you can partner and you can ensure that dollar that you invest to get a return. It's very important when you invest a dollar, you want more dollars coming out so that you can invest more in the technology, in the structure that you build.

So for me, that prioritization is key. When you go to outcome based model, which customer, which segments and what are we going to deliver over there? And then to your point, instead of creating ad hoc packages and going out there and pushing it in the market doesn't work very well. Not all customers are ready for the service of tomorrow. So that's number one. Then number two is outcomes. This also very important. Which outcomes are you going to deliver? If you say sustainability, what is the baseline? What is the level of commitment you can make? What is the commercial conditions are attached around that? Same for efficiency, same for comfort. You need to understand the parameters in which you and your company play. So there are companies out there, they would go and sign some contracts that would commit to the outcomes that we are going to deliver this and we'll go at it.

There are companies who do go other way around. Yeah, we can promise you, but we cannot commit. We can cannot sign the line. So we need to understand that as well. Where do you play in that? What is your strength in that outcomes based services? And then you need to stick to your strength and the financial parameters in which the financial framework in which you and your company work in. For me, that's the second point. Very important. And to educate our salespeople and our delivery people so that we really deliver what we commit to our customers. In this particular play of service, digitization, delivery, customer success is even more important than selling. Because what happens is you start with two or three sides. A customer with a portfolio of hundred, let's say a real estate customer, he says, I want to pilot on two buildings with you guys.

If you deliver over there, then we are going to go at 10, 20, 30, 50, 100. Delivering to commitment is so important. That's why you need to understand your customer landscape, what outcomes you will deliver. And then delivering them actually, that's where you feel like a winner. When you deliver that, you get this sense of satisfaction as a leader, as a team, as a company, that yes, we have done something that gives us legitimacy in this market. That gives you confidence that whatever we have built actually works, it actually delivers. That's why I said technologies exist. How do you make it more relevant, more available out there and accelerate the way it brings impact?

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. So I realize we're going to run out of time, so I want to try and get through a couple more things quickly, but one of the things you said I have to go back to, which is you said not all today's customers are ready for the services of tomorrow, which I think is a really good point in terms of prioritization. But my question for you, and we don't necessarily have to get into the details on this today, but I would love to talk about it more. My question is that triangle, you're working at the top then, the people that meet the criteria for really co-innovating with today, do you feel the work you're doing there ultimately will trickle down as more companies become ready for the service of tomorrow? Do you know what I'm saying?

Ravichandra Kshirsagar: Look, let me correct myself. I mean the type of offer, so if you go top of the pyramid, the type of offer technology would need is very different, could be different from the technology that you need at the bottom, the use customers, small sites across country. So we are bringing those offers to the market as well, and that's the place. So I think you need to understand with this offer and that technology, which part of customers, which part of the pyramid that you are working with. Then on the top of the pyramid, I think we have learned some lessons. We are in this digital journey for few years now. We have accelerated, we have learned our lessons, and what is important is we don't want to learn the same lessons in different countries, want to make sure we have learned the lesson and then we get ahead of it. We apply in a much more rigorous way when we are working with those customers. So here I think your question is on how do we co-innovate or partner with them and make sure that we are delivering on those outcomes, right?

Sarah Nicastro: No, I think you answered my question. It's just that today you have customers at different tiers of that pyramid that have different needs. I just tend to think that the most innovative things you're creating at the top of the pyramid over time will trickle down. I think that that's what happens with innovation is that over time the capabilities become easier to deliver. The people down here start to want what the people up here have, and so those value propositions evolve.

But okay, so what I want to talk about next is we're talking about all these changes in customer expectations and digital capabilities and what Schneider can offer. So that also then impacts how the company evolves in its own service transformation. And so how you internally adapt to providing these outcomes-based services. So we talked about, when we spoke for this podcast, we talked about three pillars of that and I'm hoping you can just briefly touch on each. So technology people and then the organization. So can you share a little bit just at a high level, the considerations for those three pillars in how they relate to being able to execute on the type of service offerings we've talked about today?

Ravichandra Kshirsagar: Yeah. So overall, our vision and ambition, Sarah, is to deliver 80% of our services in a digital manner by the end of 2025. It's a tall ask. However, we are on track to get there, and these are the three pillars that I mentioned to you. Technology, people, process, delivery model, those are the three me and my team we fully focus on. So starting with technology, one is on the offer side, second is on the deployment side. So on the offer side, what are the technologies that we have and what are the technologies we are incubating, the types of features that we are prioritizing to get to that remote digital service delivery model. So what that means is reducing more work on site and bring it into digital mode of delivery. So that's on the offer side. Also, advent of AI and bringing those AI based service delivery models, which I presented in Amsterdam as well, how we are piloting those and delivering value to our customers.

Second is deployment on deployment side, as I was mentioning more how do we accelerate modernization and digitization of our install base and enterprise customers out there. So that's a massive work that our teams are doing across the globe, working with our customers to accelerate that journey to show them the risks of staying on the legacy system and the value of moving towards the new modern systems, including digital delivery and bringing value to our customers to start first level of digital services with the offer that we deliver today, which is ecostructure for building, which connects directly into the cloud and starts the delivery of services.

The second part is people, when you accelerate your technology, your innovation, you need your people to understand the value of that technology and how it delivers outcomes to your customers and you want them to embrace that technology. So that means lot of support to your people, their competency, development and clarity on how they would deliver services in the new world. One of the things we did as a team is to reimagine the role of service technicians in 2025 and 2030. Reimagine the role of service technician and write it today as a job description and think about how we should be adopting that technology. The technology may exist today and may not exist. So this is the vision we need to give to our people. We need to build competencies to help them understand the new world, which is not only building management system, but cybersecurity, networking, working with data layer, network layer, that's the second part. And helping them to bring more impact to their customers. These guys are very close to their customers which is the best part of it. They would look even better if they use that technology.

And third part is about processes. The delivery model itself, it's not going to be the same. So we need to adapt ourselves. We need to help our customers adapt to that delivery model. How you go from tangible way of delivering service with a truck rule to intangible with digital. So something you are doing once a month, once a quarter, once a year, now you can do every instant of time with digital and that brings so much value. And it's important you define your processes, your delivery model with that, and you work with your customers as well, so they understand that. So those are the three in a nutshell that we have built and we are working with our customers to deploy that. I think that's going to be the next frontier, especially people part, how we accelerate that faster and people embrace technology even at a much faster pace.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, I agree. You probably saw me taking some notes, so I was writing down a couple of other topics that would be great to have you back on to talk in depth about. So digging into a couple of these specific areas because I think they're so super relevant. So be prepared for me to follow back up.

Ravichandra Kshirsagar: I'm very passionate about this topic. I love the topic, what I mentioned, sustainability, net-zero, and this does not apply only to Schneider. I think every company needs to find its purpose in this world and then define your focus and how you bring value to your customers. Customers are looking for, they want something where it makes them look good in their market with their customers, their people. So what can we do? So yeah, I'm happy to join whenever you want.

Sarah Nicastro: And I've been asked, especially when you talk about this evolution to remote service and the tangible versus intangible, that would be a great conversation to have because I think it's something people are really struggling to wrap their heads around. And I've been asked a few times, what does sustainability have to do with service? And I'm like, are you kidding? People have these guys and girls out in trucks showing up, literally going out, driving around, showing up, not having what they need to do the job, going back, going back again. There's an immense amount of waste. So even if the goal isn't to be able to go all remote, if you can just leverage remote to bring intelligence into only go when it's necessary and when you're prepared, there's a massive amount of opportunity. So it's really interesting.

Ravichandra Kshirsagar: No, just to add two data points there. One, you mentioned people traveling back and forth and mean going to site, just going around working doesn't mean you are delivering value. So I think re-imagining and stepping back on that to reimagine the new world of services, very important for every company. Second in our industry, 72% of the onboarded carbon is in the buildings that are already built. So for us, it's critical key, and I can tell you a lot of the companies out there, whatever you are building, there is a sustainability impact of it. Actually, I'm going through my own understanding of sustainability to go into that topic in a deeper way with a sustainability expert certification.

Sarah Nicastro: Oh, that's awesome.

Ravichandra Kshirsagar: Yeah, it's just to understand, you need to understand the topic deeper to really comment on it, whether it impacts your business or not. And chances are it does impact your business and the deeper you go the better you understand.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Okay. So two more questions. One is, when you think about, not how far you've come, which is fantastic, but where we're going next, when you think about this services of 2025 services of 2030 and beyond, what would you say is the biggest challenge that you expect to have to overcome to really get to where you want to be?

Ravichandra Kshirsagar: I think that's a great question. I would say there are three main challenges that we need to work on to really go faster on digitization of services and to the new world. Number one is people. I mentioned that service business is about people. It was about people, it is about people, and it will always be about people. And we need to really pay attention to our people and make sure we hold their hand and we bring them with us in that world. It's not about replacing people. There's so much work out there, there's so many outcomes we need to do, we need to do it with the same experts and even bring new generation of leaders into this industry. So it is about people to ensure that we address that challenge head on and in a very organized way.

Number two is about technology. Technology is about collaboration. So it's not just Schneider Electric or other company in this ecosystem. We are part of the ecosystem, and that means you need open technologies that operate across different systems, across vendors, across different protocols. We are able to build those open architectures that have independent data layers. So you have applications and outcomes that you deliver today, and you are ready to build applications that you would need tomorrow. Future proofing your technology, that's the key part. And ensuring that openness in your technology is very important. Everyone building their own technology is great, but if it doesn't operate with others, it's a challenge.

And the third one is adoption. Adoption, deployment. We need to move away from this legacy mindset. If it works, I don't need to replace it. It's not just about maintenance. Maintenance, it's a very interesting word. Maintenance means maintain the same performance, like the same line. Today, it's about outcomes. Performance means going up, improving, delivering more than what was asked. So if you stay on that old legacy mindset, you don't move to that world of outcomes, world of performance, and every building out there needs to perform to the best possible level. So here the facility managers, the people who are working with the engineers need to move to that new world and try newer technologies and deploy them at scale so that we deliver bigger outcomes on sustainability faster. I would say those three. People, technology, the open collaboration and adoption, moving away from legacy mindset.

Sarah Nicastro: They're all good points. Last question, Ravi, is as a service leader, you mentioned you've been at Schneider 12 years. 12 years has brought a lot of change, and you are responsible for a good scope of things. So in your experiences, what's the biggest lesson you've learned?

Ravichandra Kshirsagar: Yeah, the biggest lesson I've learned is listen to your customers and listen to your people. Listening to your customers is very important. And listening means active listening, understanding what they're doing with your technology, where they're deploying it, what type of outcomes they want to deliver. And then triangulating that across different customer groups. Maybe one customer will tell you something. Another one tells you something, the market tells you something else. And together that creates immense value if you are able to triangulate and analyze that information to create certain priority areas where you should be investing your energy as well as your resources. And second is about listening to your people. I think our people, especially the technicians in the field, the engineers, these guys have immense knowledge. They know their customers better than sometimes anyone. And I spend a lot of time in the field.

I spend time going to sites with our engineers, and those are the best journeys where they're telling you how the customer is using it. They'll even tell you something better than anyone has thought on the offer roadmap, I can tell you that it's amazing. So that's listening to your people is very important. I would add a third one, I think the lesson, this applies to all the leaders in every industry is executing, delivering on commitments, delivering on performance. Because when you deliver, then you get more investment in your business. In a group like ours or anywhere else, you need to ensure that performance is moving and you are able to attract investment to your business in the group. So those three things, I would say, customers, people and execution is a priority. Third one I did later, but yeah, it's always on my mind. Executing as well.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, well, like you said earlier, when you're talking about moving to outcomes, you are only as good as your execution. So it's a very important point. All good points, Ravi. Thank you so much for coming and sharing with me and our listeners. And as I said, I took some notes, so I'll look forward to having you back again in the near future. But appreciate your time and appreciate you coming on.

Ravichandra Kshirsagar: Thank you, Sarah. It was a pleasure to have this discussion. And yeah, I would be happy to join you whenever you want. Thank you.

Sarah Nicastro: I appreciate that. You can learn more by visiting us at futureoffieldservice.com. Please be sure to make sure you subscribe to the Future of Field Service Insider so you can stay up to date on all of the latest content. Also, check out the dates for the 2023 live tour. The Future of Field Service podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thank you for listening.

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Episode 200

What Leaders Need to Know About the Neuroscience of Change

“ telling your team what's known, it's just as important to say what's unknown … Ultimately, the first question that runs through anybody's mind is, "What does this change mean for me?" ”

Sarah welcomes Dr. Elizabeth Moran, former VP of Global Talent Development at ADP who now works as a consultant and executive coach and is passionate about helping teams and organizations successfully navigate and evolve through change using a neuro-transformational approach. She gives an inside look into her new book, Forward: Leading Your Team Through Change, and offers honest advice for change management success.

Sarah Nicastro: Welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today, we're going to have a very interesting conversation about the neuroscience of leading through change. If you've been following the podcast or our website content for long, you know that change management is one of the biggest topics we discussed because it is one of the biggest challenges that you all have. So, we're going to have a great conversation about that today. I am thrilled to be joined by Dr. Elizabeth Moran, who is formerly the Vice President of Global Talent Development at ADP. She's an experienced leader, consultant, and executive coach, passionate about helping teams and organizations successfully navigate through change with her organization, Elizabeth Moran Transformation.

Dr. Moran partners with Fortune 500 companies all the way to technology startups and works to support everything from large scale to small scale transformations. She holds a master's and doctoral degree in clinical psychology from the California Institute of Integral Studies, a PCC level coaching certification from the International Coaching Federation, and a certification as a neuro-transformational coach. Ooh. She's also the author of the upcoming release or maybe brand-new release, Forward: Leading Your Team Through Change. Oh, that was a mouthful. Thank you for bearing with me. Moran. Got it. And if it's okay, I'll switch to Elizabeth. Is that okay? Okay, perfect. Okay. Elizabeth, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. That was a lot to cover, but obviously, you came to my attention through your brand-new book, which is really exciting. But then in looking at your bio, you have a lot of experience with very relevant organizations, some of which I'm sure are listeners of the podcast.

So, that's very exciting. We're talking about change management today and how leaders tackle that, "What do we need to do to equip leaders to successfully manage change?" I think there was a time where change management as a topic was almost like a project. You have a project. If you understand the importance, you have a change management process with that project, and then you move on. Today, it feels a lot more like an ongoing necessity. What are your thoughts on that first?

Dr. Elizabeth Moran: I think you touched on two important things that people are noticing more and more about. One is that when you think about change management ... I say change leadership. I couldn't care less which you use. There's two pieces to that. You highlighted the one, which is super important, is being able to manage the project aspects of a change. But then there's managing the people aspects of the change. And so those are two different things. And oftentimes, people focus on the project aspects, rightly so, at the expense of, Well, are people getting it? Are we setting them up for success, including leaders?" And so when you think about that, that's important.

The second piece that you mentioned is it's constant ongoing change, not only multiple changes, but so many changes are years. They continue. They're rolling. And so leaders are faced with a change that changes and changes again. Actually, there's a quote in there from Ashley who is a service leader in the book, who was saying, "Yes, that's exactly what we're saying, 'Hey, thanks for this change, but just so you know, this change is going to be changing, and then we'll change it again.'" And we all laughed. But it was true.

Sarah Nicastro: That's exactly what I mean. When I started in this space, it was 15 years ago. Yes, there was change, but it was a more static landscape compared to where we are today. You know what I mean? And so if there was change, it was done, it was stable for a time, and then you moved on to something else. Today, the hits, they keep coming. Right? If it isn't one thing, it's another thing. It's this thing. And now, this thing we just changed is changing again. And then it's just that we live in a very real time, constant flow of information, constant flow of needing to react, et cetera. So, there's this, I think, increased intensity around it and also amplified need for leaders to really get a grasp on the people part of that change leadership.

So, the volume and the intensity has sped up. I think leaders are reacting in a variety of ways. Some maybe intuitively are better at it than others. Some are really struggling, but we need to make sure that we're equipping people to navigate this because it's not going away. That intensity is likely here to stay. Here's where I want to start, and then I want to get into some of the details. In your book, you are giving five simplified neuroscience concepts that every change leader can and should use to their advantage. Let's use that as a starting point, if you can talk us through those five concepts.

Dr. Elizabeth Moran: The first thing I tried to do with the book is to understand that everybody is overwhelmed. And so it was very important to me to provide something where it wasn't just, "Hey, here's the concept, one, two. Here are some things you can do, which is why I call it a playbook. So, here are some steps." And then number three, which to me was often missing, is, "Here are the words you can say. You have to have a difficult conversation with somebody that you think might be resisting. Here's how you approach that. Or when you announce a change or you're going to have to talk to your team, here are most likely the common tough questions you're going to get. And here are ways to answer it." First of all, even when I think about the neuroscience concept, they are five concepts with the caveat that, look, we are learning so much all the time, everything changes. But I tried to give a simple overview. And then, "So what? What does this mean for you?" I'm going to look at the book to make sure I capture all five. The first one was what we call the threat of uncertainty. And that ultimately is what the change leaders, themselves, are experiencing as much as people are.

Our brains hate uncertainty more than anything. And so the goal is, if we know this about ourselves, "How do leaders create ... " When I say certainty, I don't mean that that means that they know everything. But that means two things. One is when people are already in uncertainty, they think the next thing that is going to happen, in other words, what's in the unknown, is going to be bad. So, part of the leader's job is to know that we're already geared towards the negative. So, how do you help people course-correct back to neutral? And there's techniques to do that also for ourselves. That's super important. And then the other thing is when you think about telling your team what's known, it's just as important to say what's unknown because most people are thinking about ... Ultimately, the first question that runs through anybody's mind is, "What does this change mean for me?" And so that's why we talked about it's totally fine to say, "I don't know." And we'll get more into that later.

The second concept is negativity bias. That means we automatically have a brain that's tilted towards looking for that. We started with uncertainty. Now, we're automatically tilted to what's going to go wrong. That's just a way that we are always hardwired to protect ourselves. So, why it's so important to not only think about what could go wrong in a change and allow your people to talk about it. It's also important to basically think about, "Well, what could go right?" The third thing is switch-cost. And many times, I hear from service leaders ... Leaders in general, but service leaders, particularly if they have employees who've been around for a long time, is, "Oh, my gosh. The people, they don't want to change. It's so hard to get people to change." And so this gives leaders an understanding about why. I like to say there's a little geek in your brain that's calculating the cost-benefit analysis for you to make the effort to change. And so a lot of times, we like to stay in the ideation phase, "Ooh, that sounds great. That would be so cool." But actually, when it comes to doing the work ... And I give an example in the book of when I tried to learn a foreign language. Sounded like a great idea when I was living in Italy. My brain was like, "It's not happening."

Didn't matter how kind the Italian people were, wasn't going to happen. The switch-cost was too great. So, then I talk to leaders, "Well, how do you deal with this?" And one way you deal with it is helping people understand what they can get rewarded for. So, in this case, what we're looking for is not perfection in somebody doing a task or doing it the exact same way we've done. We're going to reward people trying something new. And that's a way you can counteract. Do you want to jump in?

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, I was just going to say one thing on that because sometimes, one of the challenges I hear is in that ideation phase ... Let's say digital transformation. We're adopting this new tool, and we're going to do this, so it will improve X, Y, or Z about your Mr. or Mrs. Frontline-Worker, role. "Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Sounds good. Sure, I'll consider that." But then adoption doesn't actually happen. So, there's this initial acceptance when the change management plan is initially rolled out. But then after the implementation of that tool, the leaders really struggle with its use. It's not being used at all. They're just defaulting to the former tool, or it's not being used in its intended manner. So, this switch-cost idea makes a lot of sense because that initial acceptance is sort of this, "Yeah, okay." And then there's this recognition of, "But I'm so comfortable doing this thing. I don't want to actually learn how to do this new thing." I was just kind of putting it in the-

Dr. Elizabeth Moran: Perfect.

Sarah Nicastro: ... context and thinking about how much sense it makes. Okay, sorry.

Dr. Elizabeth Moran: Yes, you're absolutely right. And some of that is needing time, but there are a couple of other things that leaders can do in that case. First of all, is making sure, "Is everybody clear, first of all, of what we're trying to do? Does everybody get it? Fine." The leader can think about and make room for, "Okay, as you adopt this new tool, what concerns you, or what excites you? Also, what might be gained, or what might be lost?" Giving people a chance to say, "I like doing this. I was an expert. I could do my job very easily. And now, depending on what some of those metrics are that people will be measured ... You have to make sure they're not being penalized for taking more time or having to learn a system. So, it's really looking at the whole reward mechanism.

And oftentimes, it's like, "Yeah." And it's the leader simply saying, "You're right, you're right." And just making some room for that, "It's hard to not be the expert anymore, and it is hard to take longer." So, a lot of times, the leaders has to just acknowledge, "Yeah, you're right." And there's not much more to do about that, again, except, "Hey, do you want to walk through this together? Should we try it and see what it's like?" And then giving the person more time and, as we said, trying to reward them and encourage them for struggling as opposed to being perfect.

Sarah Nicastro: Makes sense.

Dr. Elizabeth Moran: Humans, right? This is a thing. We're dealing with humans. Two other things, and they all kind of flow together. Number four is the analytic versus empathetic networks in our brain. This was a huge light bulb going off for me, and it gets to the heart of what you're talking about, the project versus the people aspects of the change. The analytic network is those groups of systems in our brains that are responsible for analyzing data, looking at timeframes, putting specific actions together, getting things done. It's planning. It's all of that stuff. Most organizations reward for analytic network activity a lot. The other part is the empathetic network in our brains. Two major functions here. One is it allows people to almost pull back out of the details and see the larger, broader picture, which is a lot where you can see patterns. It's where innovation comes from, the ability to pull out and think about doing things in new ways. The other thing is it enables us to be tuned into the verbal and non-verbal cues of people. The kicker is when one of those is active, it suppresses the other. And so hence, when we're very focused on a project in getting something done, we are not able to attend to the human side of change, which why the best leaders who do this really almost have to specifically imagine they're putting a different hat on, and they have different questions.

Even in groups when we were meeting, doing training around this, and we were having leaders, service leaders in particular, practice, we would assign, "Okay, your job in this conversation is simply to wear the people-hat. You put yourself in the role of people. What are you thinking and feeling?" And they felt permission to do that while everybody else was focused on getting it done. That's really critical. And then the fifth is optimism. And I hope this makes people feel good. For me, earlier in my career, I used to sort of roll my eyes at optimism or positivity because it just didn't seem serious. Now that I'm a complete nerd when it comes to brain science, it's, again, helped me so much appreciate that, again, we went back to ... Because our brains are tilted towards the negative, actually, some say we give three times more psychological weight to the negative than the positive. Again, you can understand our bodies are trying to keep us safe. But when it comes to constant news and things that make us feel very anxious, unless we specifically try to scan for the good, we are always going to fall behind.

In this case, practicing optimism would be getting your team together and imagining a positive future, imagining a positive outcome, really taking some time to think about what's happening, what could be really beneficial for clients even in the short run, if we're struggling. It also is taking time to celebrate that movement towards adoption. Even if it's like, "Oh my gosh, I did this. It was the complete failure" It's still, "Congratulations. What can we learn from that? I so appreciate you making the effort. It's wonderful. What can we learn from this?" And then it's also celebrating more of the traditional successes. I'll stop there.

Sarah Nicastro: That makes sense. I'm looking at our outline and thinking we don't have enough time because I have so many extra questions. But I was thinking when you were talking about the analytic versus the empathetic ... I'm sure part of it is putting on those different hats, but I have to assume also people are geared in one or the other. And so I think I was just thinking about ... Clearly, I would be on the empathetic side, but that's not for this conversation. But I think on the flip side, there's a lot of leaders who aren't, and that's tough. And knowing that the people part is tougher than the process part, then it kind of exacerbates the challenges. The other thing I was thinking about when you were talking about optimism is you're working toward whatever this that outcome is. But we tend to focus so much on the end goal that we don't look for those positives all along the way. I'm just thinking about ... Going back to ... The second point was around ... Remind me. The second point was around?

Dr. Elizabeth Moran: Negativity bias.

Sarah Nicastro: Yes. Or maybe it was when we were talking about the switch-cost. But you said that you might not change anything, but that person just wants to be acknowledged. And so this is where this gets really interesting to me. I have a degree in psychology. That's probably why. But I struggle so much in talking with people about this because I think so much of where we go wrong is in really simple details. Do you know what I mean? When you think about acknowledgement, that person that's frustrated with that feeling of failure because they went from a process they know they could do in their sleep to something brand new that feels so, so hard, the frustration there, leaders sense that or are made aware of that. And they react in a way that is either panic or force rather than just acceptance and acknowledgement. And maybe all that person needs is to feel heard and feel validated that, "Yeah, I know. It is hard because it's new, and that's okay, but we're still going to do this because of this why for you."

And the same thing with the optimism, yes, you have this end goal, but work backwards from there even in advance and think about, "What are the realistic milestones that you can look for to celebrate so that people don't get so disengaged, waiting to get to the finish line?" It makes good sense to me. All right. Let's go back to your point about ... Communication is obviously a really big part of this. There's this need to have, you said earlier, a clear message, "Why are we doing this?" And I think one of the things we've talked about before is also acknowledging as a leader that the why is different depending on what stakeholder you're talking to. The why for the CEO is different from the why to the frontline worker, et cetera. So, you need to have this clear message. But you mentioned also that it's okay to be clear about what you don't know. Let's talk a little bit about that and this idea of clarity, compassion, and then, "Communication doesn't mean you have to have all of the answers.”

Dr. Elizabeth Moran: We hope in organizations, but I still hear that it doesn't happen, that the organization is providing their leaders with some information, enough information that starts to answer some key question, "What's changing, why is it changing?" And maybe, "What happens if we don't change? What are the actions and results? What are we trying to get to? And then what are the benefits we're hoping to achieve?" Now, many organizations will have answers to some of that, but in a much more sort of big picture general sense. It's up then to the change leader to take that information and really be able to answer the questions for their people in a way that's relatable for them. If there's one piece of advice that all of this boils down to is take some time before you talk to your folks about a change and simply put yourself in their shoes, and say, "If I was in their shoes, what would I need? How is this announcement going to land? And what might I need to adopt? Even if I'm resistant at first, that's okay."

It's thinking about, first of all, just the overall consistent basics, "Do you have that?" And if you don't, go to your leaders and ask some of those questions. Then it is, "Okay, I'm going to communicate this to folks. But before I do, I'm going to take some time to anticipate tough questions or reactions they may have so I am not surprised." And then it is going to be okay. But it involves a mindset shift because ... I know I can go in a bazillion different directions because of the overlap, but I'm trying to stay focused. If you think about what your job is in the different stages, first, it's just to announce the change, make sure people get the technical details enough, and then they can ask questions, and then they can have their reactions. So, you have to get into a mindset that says, "My job as a change leader is not to have all the answers. My job as a change leader ... I know I'm successful, is I can actually unearth a ton of questions I can't answer yet because that tells me I'm giving my folks an opportunity to engage and to get involved. I'm also trusting their wisdom and their knowledge. They're on the front lines."

And the problem is a lot of leaders are exhausted. They already feel like they're going to hear people being like, "Oh, are you kidding me? Another change? What about this? And this one still isn't working." And that's fair. And then it's like, "Okay, let's map this out. Let's talk about that." And it's giving 20 minutes. Now, what I'd like to say to leaders is, "It's okay." For instance, as soon as you shift your mindset that resistance isn't a problem, resistance is normal, this is what people do, that's cool. But resistance isn't a permanent state. And then over time, it becomes a different conversation. But at first, my job is to understand, "Do people have enough information now?" And then it is to make sure I ask questions if I have an expectation. That is, "Do you understand what you need to do differently?" Which is the clarity priority. We can touch on those in a minute. The clarity priority bottom line is, "Is everybody clear on what they need to do differently on a day-to-day basis as a result of the change?" That's usually the part that's missing.

A change gets announced, there's not as much conversation or clarity around, "Okay, now, what is it like to actually implement this change? Do I need new training?" And almost making room for, "Look, this is how it looks now, but it's probably going to change as we start to roll it out." And setting that expectation upfront so people don't think, "Oh, now, you're changing again. That must mean it was a problem." No, this is normal. I'm going to dovetail into the communication priority. Clarity priorities, making sure people are ... Really, they understand what they have to do differently. Communication is two-way. It's not just telling. It's making room to ask. And that's why I hope the book is helpful because I do outline conversations and guides for a ton of tough questions, including, "Am I going to lose my job?" Which is a big one that freaks leaders out.

It is all about, "How do you become curious and not look at somebody's negative reaction as either a total roadblock to your trying to move ahead in your analytic network and get things done? And also, how do you welcome it as good data?" It's important for me to know this. And so as soon as I go into curiosity mindset, I'm not defensive. I don't have to convince anybody. And then it's compassion, is really where I like to start. As I said, you are able to understand that resistance is completely normal, that my job here is to really try to put myself in that person's shoes, which I've got to say service people are so good ... The most successful ones all the time. It's what causes a lot of their frustration.

As I said, they love their clients. They feel like they really want to support their clients. So, how do you end up really allowing ... Put yourself in your person's shoes, but then allow them to put themselves in their client's shoes, and talk to you about what this is going to be like from a client or user experience perspective. We're talking about a lot here, but I want to make sure we focus down on that most leaders right now, they are already change leaders. They're doing it. So, the goal is, "Let's figure out what you do that works?" And if you're coming up against some particular problems or challenges, I'm hoping this book can make it easy for you to try a couple of things differently to get that change adoption,

Sarah Nicastro: That makes sense. I think this idea of, "It's okay to say I don't know." Also goes back to authenticity, which builds trust. To me ... I'm probably more skeptical than some, but the worst thing someone could do if I ask a question and they don't know is to make something up because I will just smell the BS and just walk away, rolling my eyes. And that disconnect is what you want to be avoiding. You're better off just being honest and transparent, "I don't know, but let me find out. I don't know. I'll come back to you. I don't know. Let's whatever." So, it almost is part of the compassion piece for me of-

Dr. Elizabeth Moran: Totally.

Sarah Nicastro: ... "Don't let your ego make you feel the need to make things up. It's okay to not have all the answers. It's better to not have all the answers and figure them out together than to pretend you do if you don't." Now, you mentioned some of the tough questions. I want people to get the book and read the book. So, we don't need to go through all of the examples, but-

Dr. Elizabeth Moran: I'm happy to.

Sarah Nicastro: What is the advice on ... Obviously, you should anticipate that you will get some, but how do you navigate those tough questions or those moments of extreme resistance without taking it personally or losing focus, confidence, energy on where you're trying to get to?

Dr. Elizabeth Moran: I think the whole point is these conversations are hard. So, what I like to say is it's not that you're ever maybe going to feel great about having these conversations or that you're going to like them. It is, again, shifting a bit to be able to tolerate the discomfort. And most people that I have found, they build the skill over time. And then they start to have a couple of things, which is what's in the book. So, let's talk about that. The first thing is it's normal. As soon as you shift your mindset that somebody's reaction or tough question is not a barometer of my change leadership ability ... And it might not even be a barometer that they're resisting change or not. Resistance is simply concerns that haven't yet been addressed. So, if you can shift to that, that often helps again ... As I like to say, as soon as we trigger curiosity in ourselves, that oftentimes alone reduces our own anxiety. In the brain, there's a different emotion that's now in line in your amygdala, and it's not fear or anxiety. That's one.

Two is if I've taken some time in advance, given what I know, and prepared for some tough questions like, "Why do we need to do this when everything's going so well?" Or, "I'm already overwhelmed." Or, "Am I going to lose my job?" Or whatever. [inaudible 00:31:22] you take some time in advance, there are ways to handle that. What I like to say to leaders is across the board, the one tip that will really help is, "Stop thinking you have to give an answer right away." And again, we think about where I should be asking more and telling. If someone clearly is coming forward with a question that's very clear that they just have the wrong information, then yes, tell is like, "Hey, let me just make sure I'm clear." Oftentimes, it's simply playing back, which is what service people are trained to do with clients, "Let me play back. When I just want to deescalate conflict, let me play back what I hear you saying. Okay, great. Yes, boom."

If there's more of an emotion behind it, telling can start to get into a debate. That's what you're trying to avoid. First of all, as you know this, you can say something like, "Hey, that question makes sense. I think I understand why you're asking it, but I'd love to get some more information. Why is that coming up for you now? Or can you give me some more information?" That does two things. It enables the person to sometimes even get clearer on what it is, especially if there's emotion involved. And so it could be, "Hey, what are you concerned about? I think it's this, but tell me more." So, the leader is simply there, helping the person get to the bottom of stuff. But that does require in that moment, that the leader has already kind of come into it and said, "Okay, I'm going to take off my analytic network hat. I'm simply going to put on my empathetic network."

Now, you had said you are probably more geared towards having a preference. Me too. That said, when my brain is focused on a goal, I'm on a tight timeframe. I got another meeting coming up. I'm in my analytic network. And so I'm going to be much more likely to tell. So, part of it is being very clear in this conversation ... This may be a tough one. So, I'm going to have some notes. I'm going to have a couple of questions I can ask back, and then I'm going to make sure I take time. And if we're running out of time, I'm going to say, "Hey, let's continue this." But the whole point is can you ask a couple of questions first, let the person talk a minute and then say, "Huh, that's a great question. If I was in your shoes, I could understand why you're asking it. Here's what I know right now, and here's what, still, we don't know."

The other thing that's really tricky here, and this goes back to the neuroscience concept of uncertainty, oftentimes, it's hard for people when, again, change wasn't their idea. It's being foisted on them to feel okay about moving forward if they don't have all the answers, but leaders and frontline people. Oftentimes, it's important for the leader to say ... If they are not able to answer a question, be very clear about, again, "Great question. I can understand why you're asking it. We don't have an answer now. Is not having an answer preventing you from doing your job right now? And if it is, listen, that's good to know." But oftentimes, people just don't like not knowing, and they'll feel bad about it. They'll feel uncomfortable. And that's important for leaders to say, "Look, I totally get it. Your question makes perfect sense. Here's my commitment to get you an answer. But I think in the meantime, you'll still be able to do these things even if it's uncomfortable. Am I right about that?"

So, it's just always trusting your people that they're trying to do the best they can with the information and pausing for a minute, and just simply joining them. Doesn't mean agreeing. It just means, "I'm going to be present enough for you for these next 10 minutes just to make sure I'm getting what it is that is important to you.”

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, I think that distinction that acknowledging emotions does not mean agreeing with them is a good one because people want that acknowledgement. They want to feel heard. That doesn't mean you are agreeing, conceding. It's just a matter of allowing them to feel that way and feel heard, and then to your point, finding the solution. Okay. One of the things I want to talk about is change fatigue. We have had a whole lot of it over the last few years. I think service, we had a big push of digital transformation and technology change. We've had changes in, "What are customer expectations, and how do we shift service delivery or business models to meet those needs?" And then obviously, the last few years, that's all been compounded by changes as a result of the pandemic, et cetera. What are the thoughts on change fatigue and how it factors in both for leaders and for employees?

Dr. Elizabeth Moran: I think you said it beautifully. The question is, "What is it that will help both employees and leaders when it seems like there's no relief really coming?" And so part of that is, first of all, understanding that this idea ... Let me say this another way. As soon as you understand that our brains are automatically tilted to the negative, that's really important information. Once you understand that, you're able to stop and pause, and stop thinking that just because your brain is saying, "Oh my God, there's something wrong. There's something wrong." Doesn't make it true. And this is the most important thing. 100% of my clients are overwhelmed and exhausted. And so the first thing we have to do is help them understand, "You are in habit." Most people's brains are in the habit of anxiety, and it's exhausting because we are not built to constantly be in fight or flight. We also know ... Little more neuroscience research, that there's been research done about ... They put people in MRI machines. They flashed images. They were trying to understand, "Is there a difference between something lodging in what we call the unconscious brain, which is more of the inner brain versus the outer brain? And yes." What they discovered was people's amygdala could be lighting up and flashing, and reacting to stuff in the environment even though their conscious brain wasn't recognizing it.

So, the first thing for leaders to understand is you have to take care of yourself. And that may mean not giving yourself access to all this bad news. It's allowing time for quiet, and it's allowing time for reflection and honoring your state. That's one. Two, it's then saying, "I'm in the habit of bad news. I'm in the habit of telling myself the worst case scenario is going to happen. I'm in the habit of focused on fixing problems. I'm in the habit of catching people doing things wrong. I'm in the habit of criticizing myself." Once you see how tilted you are to the negative, then it's figuring out, "Are there one or two things I can do that bring me joy?"

And all good change leadership, which is basically good leadership, starts with you. So, start with yourself and say, "How am I feeling about this change? Does this exhaust me? Okay, I need to take a moment and honor myself, listen to my concerns." I have tips in the book for, "Hey, if this is your concern, here's a way to reframe it." It's not ignoring it. It's not acting like it doesn't exist. It's just searching for a more empowering, optimistic way forward. Again, it's so hard for people because we think the negative is more real or more true, and it's not. It's simply our scalps working over-time of all the things that could go wrong to try to protect us. So, it's developing a new habit. Once you do that, that even alone, to start to scan for the good, to see things that are going well. Even if it's a little thing, that builds energy and resilience. The other thing is people being really clear, and you can do this with yourself, and then with your people.

And again, I used to roll my eyes at this, but not anymore after both experiencing the magic and power as a leader of using this, is strengths. What that means is, "I am clear myself, as well as my people. We know the activities that we love doing, that energize us. Doesn't mean we're going to do them all the time. It's just, "We all know." They might be a little different, so we can leverage each other when there are things that drain me, somebody else might want. Now, that's different than a skill. For instance, I'm good at PowerPoint. Thank goodness, I can do it right. It's a skill. I don't love it, but I can do it. Versus Excel makes me want to poke my eye out. That drains me. So, how do I find people who love doing that? Let them do it. Part of this is honoring on your team, "Are people more often than not doing activities that they love, or are they doing activities they love, but the organization is making it so difficult for them?"

And then how do you as a leader focus on a couple of things and practice shared leadership with your team, which is saying, "Yes, let's figure out what are the obstacles right now that we're facing? What are the things we can fix or at least speed up? And what are the things that we can't do anything about right now. It's just where the technology is at. And so what can we do to make sure we all are taking care of ourselves?" And then it's celebrating success, as you said. It's a little thing. It's a little thing. And in the book, I have a framework called Great Job 2.0, which really is most people ... Because again, we're so focused on solving the problems. Again, we're paid to do that. That's great.

But Great Job 2.0 is simply like, "Hey, let's take 10 minutes and have a conversation about what went really well, what enabled your success. Here's where I saw you shine. Thank you so much. Well done, you. And what success do you want to preserve that we can take forward? Hey, can we do this in a team conversation so we can celebrate together? Who else helped you?" It's these little things that are like 20 minutes. It's, again, changing some habits, and then also really asking your team what they need, trusting the wisdom of your team so you as a leader, aren't working so hard.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, I think that there's so much of this that I think is really impactful. But the whole time you were talking about the fatigue, it just made me think of how very, very important it is to really believe in the need for and the power of that optimism because I think there's a lot of people that ... Like you said earlier, there's a point in your career where you would've rolled your eyes. I think a lot of people feel that way. But when you think about not only what you're saying about how the brain is wired, but the realities of the negativity that we have all experienced and are experiencing, there is a need to bring more of that to the table. Whether it's big things, little things, personal things, team things, I think that there is a real responsibility for leaders to take that seriously and to think about how to harness that power to offset not only change fatigue, but a lot of the realities that they're facing today. It doesn't erase at all. But if that's something you can do without spending a ton of money, without exerting all of your time, that can offset some of that. Why would you not? Right?

Dr. Elizabeth Moran: Exactly. It's usually just learning about it, is what you've said, because a lot of it is leaders taking a minute and just asking themselves first, "What's stopping me from doing this? Is it a knowledge thing? Do I know how to do it? I'm not really sure I buy it." And that matters. If you don't buy it, okay. But you don't buy it probably not because it's not true. You don't buy it because you don't know enough about it yet. I learned this ... Again, I was lucky being at ADP, and then we bought the Marcus Buckingham company. Marcus has been amazing in the work he's done with Gallup and the research. Really, the couple of key questions that are the things that he's focused in on, data, after data, after data of the most engaged teams are, one, "I get a chance to use my strengths every day at work." And two, "My teammates have my back." Is a big one. Another one is, "I'm clear, basically, what's expected of me."

We talk about all of those, compassion, clarity, and communication. And again, the leader doesn't have to all of a sudden ... I think in our mind, we go to black and white thinking, "I have to become a cheerleader, and oh my God." No, you do not. You simply just have to find your own authentic way of saying, "Well done." But the other thing that really gets in the way of this is people, themselves, feel weird acknowledging their strengths and what we know ... And you've probably seen this as well, when they've done the research, joy is one of the least trusted emotions at work. And again, it's like, "Wow, we have all been conditioned that we have to be miserable." And this is what's changing now. The external world used to be a lot more comfortable to go out there and get some feel-good. It's not as much like that anymore.

And so what's happening is many people now, I believe, are truly being directed inward, and we need to find these senses of joy, whether we get it from a partner, an activity, nature, a pet, just those moments of joy. Our brains need to spend at least 20 seconds in that feeling of feel-good, so it actually chemically makes a difference as opposed to the rampant anxiety that is nothing more than a thought or an emotion. It's not real, most of it.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I think too, the other kind of excuse that I could foresee leaders having is, "I'm just too busy. I'm too busy. Even if I say I get it, I'm too busy to make time to celebrate small wins because I'm focused on this big thing." And I think what we're talking about today is really the argument that it's too important not to. When you think about the intersection of how leaders are leading, and like you said, really every leader is a change leader, and then the issues that organizations have with retention and recruiting, and company culture, and employee experience and satisfaction, this is what a lot of it stems from. We can't just continually drive, drive, drive. People have to feel some sense of reward and connection to what they're doing, which comes from leadership. Super interesting.

Dr. Elizabeth Moran: Could I actually follow up on-

Sarah Nicastro: I think this is ... Yeah, go ahead.

Dr. Elizabeth Moran: I want to follow up on that because listen, I honor and fully believe ... And trust is wisdom. A leader saying, "I'm too busy." And so all I would say is, "I totally get it. I'm sure you are." There's no need to argue with that. If you're getting the results that you want with your current approach, that's great. If you're not sure and you really feel too busy, again, talk to your team. Ask your team, "Hey, I'm considering this, and I know we're all tired. I would love to hear from you all." So, leader doesn't have to do any more work. Maybe there's somebody on your team who's like, "Actually, I have a story of when this really helped me, and I'd love this." But it's making it safe for the team. And so again, it's simply saying, "Try and experiment." You don't have to, again, change who you are. You can do your, "I'm not sure I believe this. I'm reading this book. Do we want to talk about it and try it? Are we all rolling our eyes? And if we don't want to do it, then don't do it." [inaudible 00:49:18]. But that's what I say about shared leadership and, "Don't work so hard as a leader.”

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. Any final thoughts? I guess one final question I have would be, if you were to want to surface one major misconception you feel leaders have about how to handle change or navigate change, what would it be?

Dr. Elizabeth Moran: I think it is that resistance is a problem. I think in that one thing, simply shift to say, "These are just people with good brains. These are just being good humans, and how do I look at it? Oh, probably some really good information there." And now, I can become curious as opposed to being like, "Oh my God, there's that difficult person again." And they may be a difficult person. I'm not saying they're not. But if you can be like, "Oh, I trust you. You tell me. What do you think?" And just ask a couple questions, that really could change a lot.

Sarah Nicastro: And expecting it instead of having an unrealistic expectation that you won't get it, knowing it's normal. It's not a reflection, like you said earlier, of a failing. It's not personal. That makes sense. Okay. All right. This is the book. Tell everyone where they can find it. That was my Vanna White moment.

Dr. Elizabeth Moran: Well done. It's on Amazon. You can get it through IndieBound, Barnes and Noble, an audio book's coming soon. But that's where it is. And also, if people want more information, they can go to my website. I do this work because I'm a nerd. As I said, I love it. So, executive coaching, if leaders want some training, it's there too.

Sarah Nicastro: That's awesome. I love people that love what they do. It makes me very happy. Okay. Excellent. Elizabeth, thank you so much. I'll make sure the links for the book and for your website are in the podcast show notes. I really appreciate you coming. I could easily talk to you for another few hours. So, maybe-

Dr. Elizabeth Moran: Me too.

Sarah Nicastro: ... we'll be lucky enough to have you back sometime.

Dr. Elizabeth Moran: I would love that, Sarah. Thank you for the opportunity to connect with your listeners and you.

Sarah Nicastro: Absolutely. All right. You can learn more by visiting us at futureoffieldservice.com. I want to remind everyone that we recently launched the Future of Field Service Insider, which you can now subscribe to. That will make sure that every other week, you receive the latest content we have published directly to your inbox, along with some exclusives. We also recently announced the 2023 Future of Field Service live tour schedule. We will be visiting six countries this year. So, have a look at the website to see where we will be and sign up for the event nearest you. Ah, the Future of Field Service podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. And as always, thank you for listening.

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