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Author: supun.hettigoda@ifs.com

October 17, 2022 | 3 Mins Read

Lessons from a Run Last Week in Miami

October 17, 2022 | 3 Mins Read

Lessons from a Run Last Week in Miami

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By Sarah Nicastro, Creator, Future of Field Service

Last weekend, along with 1,500-plus others, I landed in Miami for IFS Unleashed in South Beach. My suitcase included workout gear for every day of the trip – clothing that once would have been packed with good intentions but returned home untouched. Since the beginning of this year, I’ve lost 35 pounds and have re-committed myself to daily movement, so the clothes were put to good use (Ok, maybe the morning after the beach parties I didn’t make it). 

I’ve shared before that I am a Peloton subscriber and enjoy the company’s instructors. They’ve recently teamed up with actor Ashton Kutcher, who is preparing or a marathon to benefit his charity, to create a series of runs based on his training. They recently had a session where Peloton instructor Adrian Mills (one of my personal favs) and Ashton were joined by psychologist and bestselling author Adam Grant to talk about why and how we as humans are motivated. On a rainy morning in Miami, I decided to take this run in the hotel gym and really enjoyed not only the workout but the discussion. 

Knowing not everyone in our audience is a fellow Peloton subscriber, I thought I would share some of the points from their discussion that stood out me:

  • There’s more than one kind of workaholic. In a discussion around work ethic and how they each perceive productivity, Adam shares that there are two types of workaholics – engaged and compulsive. Engaged workaholics work a lot because they genuinely enjoy what they do and want to do it, whereas compulsive workaholics work a lot because they feel pressure and a sense of obligation. I really appreciated this distinction because I realized I’m the engaged type and gave some more context to what that means. However, it also reminded me that while he pointed out that the engaged workaholic is a healthier type, it’s still important to maintain balance and set boundaries. 
  • Altruism is rarely just that. As the group explored what was behind Ashton’s frustration with himself for falling short of a goal, Adam questioned if he’s running the marathon solely for his foundation – or if there are some personal motivations woven in. In doing so, he made the point that altruism is rarely just altruism alone – and that it is OK to enjoy and even love the ways that you can change the world. This stood out to me as well, because it highlights one of the many “either/or” ways of thinking we often have – if it’s doing good, it won’t be enjoyable – and if it’s enjoyable, it isn’t doing good. It can be both! We can give of ourselves in ways that have a positive impact and that we enjoy. 
  • The basement holds up the house. This part of the discussion was all around building a strong foundation for yourself, in whatever ways work for you. This can be everything from rest to nutrition to movement to therapy to meditation to hobbies, and beyond. But the point is that everything we do builds upon our own foundation, so we must make sure that foundation is strong. I use this analogy a lot when discussion digital transformation, too, because often companies try to race to the flashier, more exciting layers without first putting in place that strong foundation – and it’s like building a house of cards. 

In our fast-paced world where burnout is a major challenge and how leaders must motivate teams is evolving, I thought these points were universally helpful to consider. If you do happen to use Peloton, I strongly urge you to look up this ride and take it – it’s a good one. 

As for IFS Unleashed, what a week! Stay tuned for this week’s podcast on Wednesday recapping the highlights for those who weren’t with us in person. 

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September 7, 2022 | 25 Mins Read

Are You an Emotionally Strong Leader?

September 7, 2022 | 25 Mins Read

Are You an Emotionally Strong Leader?

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Sarah welcomes to the podcast, Carolyn Stern, emotional intelligence and leadership development expert and author of the forthcoming book, The Emotionally Strong Leader: An Inside-Out Journey to Transformational Leadership. 

Sarah Nicastro: Welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today, we are going to be urging you to answer the questin, are you an emotionally strong leader? We're going to be talking about emotional intelligence and all sorts of related things. I'm excited to welcome to the podcast, Carolyn Stern. Carolyn is an emotional intelligence and leadership development expert and author of the forthcoming book, The Emotionally Strong Leader. She's developed self-coaching tools to help anyone grow their emotional intelligence and is going to talk with us a bit today about why that's important, and give you some tips on how to do so. So, Carolyn, welcome to the podcast.

Carolyn Stern: Thanks for having me, Sarah.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, absolutely! So before we dive in, tell our listeners a little bit more about yourself.

Carolyn Stern: So, as you said, I’m Carolyn Stern. A university professor, author, president and CEO of EI Experience, which is an emotional intelligence training company. We do a lot of emotional intelligence leadership development training for our clients. And now, soon to be author of The Emotionally Strong Leader: An Inside-Out Journey to Transformational Leadership, which comes out in September in Canada and October in the United States.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/3WLjTg4dxIU

Sarah Nicastro: Awesome. Excellent. All right, so we're going to talk about some of the specific points, but before we do that, I'm just curious how you got your start in emotional intelligence. Where does your interest lie? Why are you super passionate about this topic? Tell us a little bit more about that.

Carolyn Stern: Yeah. Well, I was a very emotional child, and I don't know if any of your listeners out there can relate to that, but that was always deemed a bad thing in my family. Emotional expression was considered ... "Young kids should be seen and not heard," and so I really stuffed my emotions down, and my emotions really created havoc in my life. But just because I'm an emotional person doesn't mean that I'm weak. And I think as I became a coach and trainer for executives, I was sick and tired of hearing that people felt that emotions were a bad thing and that showing them made them weak. And I just felt that if we demonstrate vulnerability or speak our truth, telling others what really is going on for us internally, externally, I didn't think it was such a bad thing. I felt that leaders needed to learn this skill.

Carolyn Stern: As a university professor and someone who used to teach high school, and I'm also trained in primary education, I know we're not teaching in schools. So really, what I have seen over the last 25 years as a university professor is we teach these young people IQ, to raise their IQ, but we're not giving them an emotional education to raise their EQ. And so what happens is, as leaders, it's now your responsibility to figure out how to deal with people's emotions in the workplace. I think the pandemic really shined a light on how emotional we can be.

Carolyn Stern: And there is no light switch, Sarah, when you get into the office to turn your emotions on or off. We're human and humans are full of emotions. The problem for me, as a child, I just didn't know the strategies on how to be bigger than my emotions. That's what the whole book's about. It's about teaching people to learn, to be bigger and stronger, and that's why the book is called The Emotionally Strong Leader. You can still be emotional like me and feel things very deeply, and you can also have the mental skills to be bigger and stronger than your emotions.

Sarah Nicastro: Now, I think there's a category of people that would kind of think those terms contradict each other. If you're emotional, you're not strong. If you're strong, you're not emotional. So why do we need to change our thinking related to that?

Carolyn Stern: Well, being stronger than your emotions is not really strong- arming your feelings or having a steely resolve not to feel, right? It's simply being able to understand, acknowledge and accept that we feel things. And our emotions are full of data, Sarah. Just like an ad agency takes consumer behavior as data to make good strategic choices on how to encourage us to buy their products and services, it's the same thing with our emotions. Our emotions are full of a lot of data and they can give us good strategies on how to behave and communicate better. But a lot of the times, because we were told and hoodwinked in all these years to think that emotions were bad, we just pushed those down rather than saying, "Hey, I'm frustrated. That must mean there's some unmet expectations here," right? 

Carolyn Stern: And that's what frustration tells us, is there's unmet expectations. So what's going on in my life that I'm having some unmet expectations? And then, if someone is not meeting my expectations, then I can calmly and rationally tell you, "Hey, Sarah. When you did this, I felt this, and what I'd like you to do in the future is this." We can have calm conversations if we can take the data our emotions provide. And one of the two questions I ask all of my clients, and they're really simple questions, what are you feeling in this moment? So, Sarah, what are you feeling right now in this moment?

Sarah Nicastro: Well, probably a little bit stressed because I have so much to do today.

Carolyn Stern: Okay. Perfect.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Carolyn Stern: And then the second question I always ask is what is that feeling telling you about you?

Sarah Nicastro: That I over-scheduled myself.

Carolyn Stern: There you go.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Carolyn Stern: And so, what does that tell you to do? That gives you some strategies on what to do.

Sarah Nicastro: Right.

Carolyn Stern: As simple as those two questions are, and we pepper them throughout the book, I ask reader to constantly be reflecting on how we're feeling. Here's the challenge. In the workplace, you take time for lunch. You might take time to stretch. But how often do we take time to pay attention to our feelings? And right now, above my desk, I have an emotions poster. That emotions poster reminds me to check in with how I'm feeling throughout the day, and then asking myself ... And just because that I'm an emotional intelligence expert, I want to be really clear.

Carolyn Stern: I haven't mastered this. I don't think any of us ever mastered it. But more times than not, I am bigger than my feelings and I'm making rational choices. But there are days that my feelings rule me and they're in the driver's seat, versus me being in the driver's seat. But by slowing down, figuring out not only what am I feeling, why am I feeling what I'm feeling and what can I do about it, how can I respond a respectful and professional manner, that's really what EI is all about. It's being intelligent about our emotions.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Now, you mentioned the impact of the pandemic. Do you think that there is an evolution at play here where this is changing at work? I mean to me, it feels like even if you have leaders who didn't grow up in a situation like you did, made to feel bad about their emotions, even where that hasn't been the case, there has always been a very strict delineation. "You should leave that outside of work." And I think that has changed and is changing. I really like the point you made about emotions as data. What are they telling you? But I also think it's becoming a strength of leaders, in terms of being able to connect in different ways. Would you agree with that?

Carolyn Stern: Absolutely. Emotional intelligence isn't new. I mean, Daniel Goleman had made it popular in 1995 and it has been around since the early 1990s. The need for it is so much more important and, in fact, the World Economic Forum said it's one of the top 10 skills needed for the future of jobs. What the pandemic has done has shined a light on the fact that we are human, and we feel things because our feelings erupted. This was one of the biggest disruptions in most people's lives, and we could no longer stuff them down and leave them at the door, especially since many of us were working from home. People got to see all of the things that were balancing inside. It's interesting as an emotional intelligence company. 

Carolyn Stern: I started EI Experience in 2017, and when clients would call me, or when I would have to reach out to them, I had to convince them of, "Here's what emotional intelligence training is and here's why it's needed." Now, we're busier than ever. Leaders are calling us saying, "Oh my gosh, we need this," because think about it. Having been a university professor, we're not teaching this in schools, and the Gen-Zs and the Millennials are going to make up 65% of the market of the labor force by 2025. These younger generations aren't made up of the same makeup as I am, who's a Gen-X. I can't expect the younger generation to know what I know because they don't have those skills. So for instance, Gen-Zs. They are lower at independence, lower at problem-solving and lower at stress tolerance than any generation before them. Why? Because they grew up with these things. They have helicopter parents. In fact, I was interviewed by the Vancouver Sun right back in 2020, just as the pandemic was happening, and I was the one person saying there was a silver lining about the pandemic, in my opinion.

Carolyn Stern: Yes, I'm not discrediting all the lost jobs and the lost lives and all of the horribleness that the pandemic brought. But what it did bring is it enforced our younger generation to become emotionally resilient. Because guess what? Google didn't know how to live through a pandemic, nor did their parents. These young people had to learn, "Hey, I'm no longer in a classroom. I'm now at home. I've got to figure out how to learn in my own setting. I have to figure out how to manage my own stress. I have to figure out how to rely on my own opinions." And in my opinion, it's been a gift because it really has taught them to have more grit, soldier through the challenging times and persevere.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I like the word you said, appetite, because I think you're right that emotional intelligence isn't a new concept. The information's been around. People are aware of it. I think there's been sort of an increasing acceptance of the value it plays in leadership. But the appetite for it, I think, is what has changed and is changing, so that makes sense.

Carolyn Stern: Absolutely.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. So let's talk a little bit about some of the insights that you cover in the book. So first, you talk about five distinct areas of emotional intelligence. Can you tell us a little bit about each of those?

Carolyn Stern: Yeah, so it's based on the EQI 2.0 model by Multi Health Systems, and it basically says EI is broken up into five different categories. Self-perception, how do you see yourself? This is made up of how confident you are, how self-assured you are. Are you fulfilled in your life? Do you achieve your goals? Do you set goals? Are you aware of your emotions and the triggers in any given moment? And are you aware of when you're being triggered? The second composite scale, or area, is called self-expression. This is your communication skills. How do you express yourself and relate to people? Things that you might want to ask is do you constructively express how you feel? Do you stand up for yourself? If not, why not? Do you care too much about what people think? 

Carolyn Stern: And just a little bit about me, my lowest competency, just full disclosure, is independence, and people are always surprised by that because I run my own company. I'm not married. I'm financially independent. However, I grew up with a very over-protective, bless her heart, over-bearing mother, and she didn't let me make decisions for myself. So now, as a grown-up and as a leader, I worry about my decisions. I question myself a lot. I need a lot of reassurance. My staff always tell me I pay them to reassure me, which is probably true. And I'm sharing a little bit about me to let you know that we all have an upbringing. We all came from this. So when I ask how confident you are, are you confident or are you not so confident, or are you in the middle? In the book, we first do self-perception, which I just went through. We then do self-expression, which is all about how you communicate.

Carolyn Stern: The third one is interpersonal. How do you relate to people? This is your social skills, so this is things about how do you make connections? Are you good at making mutually-satisfying connections? Are you able to put yourself in somebody else's shoes? Do you have empathy? Are you able to give back and be helpful? These are questions that we ask the reader in the book to kind of assess. "Am I high? Am I in the middle? Or am I low?" And then in the book, we talk about the dark side. You can be too much of something. Think about self-regard, for instance. How many people, Sarah, do you know, how many leaders do you know, that have too much self-regard and that they can be a narcissist and have an inability to admit mistake? All of these competencies or skills, EI skills, relate to you need to figure out where your baseline is.

Carolyn Stern: The fourth area is decision making, and this is all about how do we make decisions when emotions are involved. So for instance, are you aware of your emotional state when making a decision? Do you let your emotions cloud your objectivity? Or even, do you let your impulses tempt you? Or do you delay gratification? And then the last one is stress management, which is all about how well do you cope and handle stress, the uncertainty of the world, and change? Things like, "How well do you adapt?" Think back to the pandemic, Sarah. Do you feel like you've adapted well to the change and uncertainty? Do you think you would say yes to that?

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Yes. I mean, not without it taking a toll, but yeah.

Carolyn Stern: So, you've pivoted fairly well considering? Yeah. And then we ask things like, "How well do you cope with stress? Are you resilient during trying times? And also, do you remain hopeful about the future?" When we were listening, doom-scrolling, all the bad things happening, did you get suckered into that or do you have an optimistic outlook on life? Those are the five areas that we talk about in the book. We go into a deep dive and we get the reader to kind of really look at all 15 different skills because all of us have a different emotional makeup. And then the other piece that I just want to share quickly is sometimes, your areas of where you're high in and where you're low in can actually go against you. I'll give you an example. I told you I'm low in independence, but I'm really high in flexibility.

So as a leader, I flip-flop. I can't make stringent decisions. I tend to flip-flop my ideas. So when one employee asks me to do one thing, I say, "Okay, sure," and I get convinced to do that, and then another employee asks me to do another thing and I get convinced of that. And then the problem is because I worry about what people think, I want both employees to be happy. That's not a great combination, and that's the work I have to do. Sometimes, I have to be a little less flexible and say, "No, this is where I'm putting my foot down." And sometimes, I need to raise my independence and say, "I'm sorry you're upset with me, but here's my final decision." So that's my work, and in the book, what I get readers to do is really figure out what is their emotional work.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. It's really interesting. Now, I feel like I can guess the answer to this question, but I'm going to ask anyway, in case I'm wrong. Do you feel like there's one of those five areas that leaders typically struggle with most, or does it just depend completely on individual makeup?

Carolyn Stern: It really does depend on individual makeup. We all have genetic influence, right, and we all have environmental influences, but here's the good news. Anyone can learn and develop and enhance their EI skills in order to increase their leadership potential. Less and less leaders are actually not seeing a need for this because the problem is we tend to deal with all the disrespectful behaviors or unprofessional communications stemming from the emotional issues. And I think leaders are now realizing, "Wow, I got to get to the heart of the matter. Rather than just dealing, putting a bandaid on the inappropriate behaviors of this employee, I got to figure out why they're doing what they're doing." And a big part of the book is I actually talk about, "Learn your why. Why do?"

Carolyn Stern: Once I figured out that I had an overbearing mother and that that's why I didn't learn independence, rather than blaming her, because we talk a lot about in the book ... Rather than me pointing a finger and saying, "Mom, you're the problem," no. Three fingers point back at me. I just didn't learn those skills, so it's now my responsibility as a human to learn how to stand on my own two feet, how to be more self-directed how to not care so much about what people think, and it's not easy. The strategies we give in the book are quite simple, but it's not always easy.

Sarah Nicastro: Right, so on that point. In the book, you walk through these five areas and you dig into each of them, and then you talk about a variety of ways that people can foster their EI skills. Give us a couple examples of what that looks like.

Carolyn Stern: I'd say one of the big things that I think I have to teach leaders is, really, to do what I just told you to do, which is to do an emotional check-in, right? "How am I feeling?" But our emotional vocabulary is very small. There are thousands of emotions out there, but I would ask you, "Write down the ones that are on top of your mind." Probably, you could maybe write down five or 10, but there are thousands, and the nuances between. So for instance, I can feel happy. The level of intensity of happiness can go from elated to content. Which one am I? So really understanding the level of intensity of our emotions. Figuring out how I'm feeling, where that feeling comes from, what triggered that feeling, why I am the way I am. Then, I can be more conscious of my choices. 

Carolyn Stern: So one of the activities I give all my clients is to take a sheet of paper and split it down four ways. The first is, "Name the emotion," so put the emotion of what you're feeling. The second is, "Write down the trigger." What triggered that feeling? Now, I want you to create space. I want you to take a pause and say, "Okay, I have two ways," and I always get them to write it down. "What's a highly emotional intelligent response and a low EQ response? What would a high emotional intelligent response person do, and what would a low emotional intelligence response person do? And by creating space, they can say, "Okay. Well, here's something that I could do. I could talk to someone calmly or I could yell." Well, that's the response. The third column is response. The fourth column is impact. So if I have a calm conversation with you, what's the impact that that's going to leave? If I yell at you-

Sarah Nicastro: Right.

Carolyn Stern: What's the impact that's going to leave? That then gives them a roadmap of how to deal with those emotions. But they first have to figure out what triggered it, what are they feeling, and why? That's one of the big ones I get asked. The other one I think I get asked a lot about is empathy. Empathy is feeling with someone. Sympathy is feeling for someone. Really, there are three kinds of empathy. There is cognitive empathy, which is perspective taking. I can imagine what you are thinking and put myself into your thinking mind. There's perspective, empathy, which is, "I can feel your pain." And then compassionate empathy is, "I can feel your pain and I want to help." Now, some people who have low empathy, I have to teach them ways to become more empathetic. That might be to really listen to people, rather than just to hear them, to really listen to what they're saying.

Carolyn Stern: For people that have too much empathy, that get enmeshed in people's stuff and carry the emotional burdens on their shoulders, that's a different emotional intelligence strategy. That would be, "Set up some boundaries." So, when you're telling me your problem, Sarah, rather than me having your emotional problem be put on my shoulders, I can then say to you, "Okay. How are you feeling, Sarah? What can you do about it?" I can coach you through your problem. I can still have compassion for you, but I don't have to go home at night and solve your problems for you and carry the emotional weight on my shoulders. You can have compassion and boundaries at the same time as a leader. A lot of times I have leaders who either have no empathy and I have to teach them how to raise their empathy, or I have leaders that have too much empathy and they need to lower their empathy.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. One of the things I wanted to ask about, too, actually, is taking time to rest, the importance of that, and avoiding the word "but." So how do those factor in to fostering emotional intelligence?

Carolyn Stern: Well, taking time to rest and reflect, right? I am not good at this, I will be honest. In fact, I just wrote a blog about it. I just went on my first weekend vacation in five years. We grew up with this hustle culture, right? The more productive we are, the more successful we'll become, and I swallowed that pill and I believed in that. And by taking time to rest and really reflect, I think so much of this society ... We're on our phones all the time. We're looking at other people's ideas. The media's always amongst us. We're listening to other people's idea. How often do we spend time journaling? How often do we spend time just in our inner thoughts? I mean, science shows walking in nature calms our ruminating thoughts. So just spending time to rest and reflect will really calm your parasympathetic nervous system. In terms of the avoiding the word "but," "but" negates everything before it.

Carolyn Stern: So for instance, "I love you, but I'm moving out." Do you love me? So I teach people some communication methods and one of them is, "I love you and I'm moving out." Or even at work, if you want to use a work example, what happens when you're asked to do something, another task on your to-do list? Someone's making their objective as important as yours. You can say "Yes and" rather than "Yes but." So, "Yes I'm happy to take on that project, and the project you gave me, project B, will have to wait till Monday. Is that all right?" So rather than saying "Yes but," which negates everything before, you can say "Yes and," and negotiate. You can also say, "Yes, I'm so glad you thought of me, and right now I don't have the bandwidth." Now your boss might not be happy that you have set up a boundary and said, "I can't do it," but your boss will respect you for taking care, to be realistic of what you can accomplish and what you can't accomplish.

Sarah Nicastro: Right. Yeah. No, that makes sense. So how would you describe what leading with emotional intelligence looks like?

Carolyn Stern: Well, people with high EI just have more self-awareness. They're able to control their actions. They have more empathy for others. They like to build healthier relationships. They admit publicly when they make a mistake. They ask for input. They give specific praise, but also specific constructive feedback to their team so that they can grow. They know how to build good relationships. We still get stressed if we're highly emotionally intelligent, but they come from it with a growth mindset, seeing that every opportunity or challenges is an opportunity for them to grow. They articulate how they're feeling. They're open about how they're feeling. And here's what they're not. They're not stoic, which is what you described at the beginning of this podcast. They don't pretend to put on this fake persona, and people don't follow that, right? We can read through that when we know what people are feeling, but it's really they think they can share how they're feeling authentically so that people really want to follow them because they're relatable, not perfect. No one wants to follow perfection.

Carolyn Stern: And the other thing is they know how to set boundaries, especially when the lines are blurred between home and work. They're also able to use their emotions as data, as I said, to make really good, rational decisions. They're brave to share and to talk about, "Hey, I'm uncertain about what's going to happen," especially when emotions are heightened. And most importantly, they check in with their team. Here's the biggest thing that I get asked by executives. You do not need to be a therapist or a financial advisor or a lawyer for any one of your employees' problems. All you have to do is listen and coach them. Coach them means ... and we've developed a coaching with emotional intelligence model, but coaching others is really about asking them questions so that they figure out the answers, so you don't have to be the problem-solving hero, right?

Carolyn Stern: They also know how to adapt in changing times. They also know how to have a positive outlook, even when things look gloomy. So there's lots of things that an emotionally intelligent leader looks like and sounds like, but it's really, I think, about being brave and open about their own emotions, and that's why I wrote the book the way I wrote it. The book is an inside-out journey. You've got to figure out yourself first, your own emotional makeup first, before you can lead others. So once I knew that I lacked independence, guess what? I hired really independent people.

Carolyn Stern: Why? Because they become my competency advisors. They become my advisors in my company. When I'm struggling with what people are thinking about me, I can pick up the phone and call my competency advisor who's, by the way, my business development manager who's half my age. But I ask her for help because she's really strong in independence. So knowing your emotional makeup helps you know, "Who do I put on my team can help me be the best leader?" My second book, which I hope I will write, will all be about, "Now once you know yourself and how to lead, how do you lead others?"

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I think you mentioned authenticity and, to me, that seems like such an important part of this because I think the growth stems from that. And also, I think the perception of you as a leader and how your emotional intelligence connects, I think, has so much to do with authenticity. Are you doing the work, to your point, to figure yourself out and leverage that best to connect with others, or are you kind of faking it? I think people can see right through it.

Carolyn Stern: Absolutely, and think about it. How you feel affects how you perform. I think you just said earlier, you're stressed. If you carry that stress throughout the day, how good is your work going to be today?

Sarah Nicastro: Right.

Carolyn Stern: Now, again, we're not all going to have great days. I've had bad days, too. So how do I work through my stress? How do I first stop everything and go, "Okay, how can I calm myself down and be less stressed?" But the other thing is, you said it best, people are engaged at work if they feel connected to you and the team, appreciated for their efforts, and fulfilled in the job. Three questions I ask every employee, and I recommend your listeners ask all of their employees, is these three questions. What do you need to feel connected to me and the team? What do you need to feel appreciated for your efforts? And what do you need to feel fulfilled in your role? And then, shut up and listen because guess what? That's going to give you a roadmap on how to lead them.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Carolyn Stern: That's getting inside what works for them and fills their bucket so that you, as a leader, can give back to them in a way that will resonate with them.

Sarah Nicastro: Right.

Carolyn Stern: But every person is different. You might to feel connected to me. You might need to talk to me once a day. Another employee might need to talk to me once a week. To feel appreciated, you might want me to spend time with you. Another employee might just want a gift card. To feel fulfilled in your role, you might just want challenging assignments, whereas another employee wants to take a course. All of that is going to give you a lot of data on, "How do I keep people engaged and fulfilled and connected to me in the workplace?"

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. No, I think it's all really good input and it's all super interesting, too. I was just thinking as you were saying that. I think the art of listening cannot be overemphasized, first and foremost, but I was also thinking about how if you ask those questions, how many people are going to feel they can share openly, and how is that reflective on your leadership, right? It goes back to the point of people can be in leadership positions, but we're all human and people want to feel connected on a human level. So it goes back to kind of what we said earlier, which is there's more appetite for leaders to be more of themselves at work, instead of just that stoic reserve, robotic. "Okay. What do you need to feel fulfilled?"

Sarah Nicastro: I mean, depending on the tone in which that question's asked and/or the way that leader conducts themself, that's going to dictate what level of openness you get in the response. So it's just interesting how it's all tied together, right? Because are you modeling the type of self-awareness and openness and communication that you ultimately want your employees to feel comfortable bringing to you, so that you can get good data when you ask those questions, instead of having them feel they need to be closed off because you're closed off, or what have you?

Carolyn Stern: Well, it's interesting because when I was writing the book, I started writing a book on emotional intelligence and leading with emotional intelligence, and how to lead people and how to get them more engaged. And then halfway through the book, I've written half the book, I stopped because I said, "You know what? I've written the wrong book first." The first book needs to be how as you, as a leader, how can you learn what your emotional makeup is? How can you be brave to talk about your feelings so that no longer are others experiencing you as a leader solely through your outward behavior, but rather they're experiencing you on a deeper connection from underneath the surface.

Carolyn Stern: And exactly what you're saying, when that kind of genuine connection happens, others feel seen and heard. You feel cared for and valued. And in a work setting, that's what's going to affect dedication, engagement, and fulfillment. So I actually switched my entire book. I basically wrote a book and a half. But the half of the book, no one will see, not until the next book comes out. But this book is really about, "How do I look inwards first to figure out how my emotions have hurt or helped me in the workplace?" And then, let's get brave enough! You've got to model the way. Just like you said, you have to model the way first so that you are brave to talk about your feelings. And once you start talking about your feelings, you give others permission to do the same.

Sarah Nicastro: Right. Yeah.

Carolyn Stern: And at every meeting I have with my team, we always start with a one-word feeling check-in. So we always ask everyone what they're feeling, and if anyone ever says to me, "Hey, I'm feeling stressed or overwhelmed," I can have a side conversation offline with them to find out how I can support them. But that gives me a lot of data as to what's going on for them. It also lets them know that I care.

Sarah Nicastro: Right.

Carolyn Stern: When people feel cared for ... Think about the last time you felt cared for it in the office. You probably worked a lot harder. And that's our goal as a leader, right? We're trying to move people forward towards our vision, our direction. People won't do that unless they feel cared for, appreciated, and fulfilled.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. No, you're right. I love it. I think it's great. Okay so, Carolyn, any closing thoughts? And also let people know where they will be able to find the book.

Carolyn Stern: Well first of all, thank you so much for having me. It's been a great conversation. The book is available September 13th in Canada, online and in stores, and October 4th in the United States, online and in stores. It's called The Emotionally Strong Leader: An Inside-Out Journey to Transformational Leadership. I just hope if I could get leaders to just learn one thing, it would be stop being so afraid of your emotions. They're just feelings. Feelings are not facts. They're not always factual. They can be factual, but they're not always. But they're fleeting, and we feel thousands of them, hundreds of them, lots of them throughout a day or throughout a week or throughout a month.

Carolyn Stern: They're transient. They're incredibly personal. And it's hard to be an objective bystander from your own emotions, but that is the key to your success. As I said at the beginning, I'm a very emotional person. I feel things very deeply, and I'm strong. I've now learned the mental skills and strategies to be stronger and bigger and smarter than my feelings. So I am in the driver's seat of my feelings, rather than, now, my feelings being in the driver's seat of me.

Sarah Nicastro: That's awesome. Well, congrats on doing the work and writing the book, and thank you for being on. So everyone, be sure to check out Carolyn's book, and also visit us online for more content at futureoffieldservice.com. You can also find us on LinkedIn, as well as Twitter @TheFutureOfFS. The Future of Field Service podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thank you for listening.

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Key Themes from Field Service Hilton Head 2022

August 24, 2022 | 9 Mins Read

Key Themes from Field Service Hilton Head 2022

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Sarah shares what was top of mind among attendees at WBR’s Field Service Hilton Head event last week in South Carolina.

Sarah Nicastro: Welcome to the Future of Field Service Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. I'm back again this week for another solo episode, two weeks in a row. This week, actually last week by the time you'll be seeing or hearing this, I've been in Hilton Head for the WBR Field Service Hilton Head event. Today, I'm going to give you a little bit of a recap on what some of the biggest themes and discussion points were at the conference. If you aren't familiar, WBR has a series of field service events. There is a variety of them. You should do a little bit of research. Typically, there's an event in Palm Springs in the spring. There's this event somewhere on the East Coast in this timeframe.

Sarah Nicastro: There's a Europe event happening towards the end of the year. There's a Field Service Medical specific event. There's a Field Service Connect event. If you're in this space and you're looking for conferences to attend and learn some things, meet with some different folks, make some new connections, it's certainly worthwhile to take a look at. I'm sure many of you are already familiar. I've been coming to these events for quite a few years, and just wanted to share with you all a synopsis of some of the themes that were most prevalent at the event this week. I'm going to pick three things that I think came up again and again and again and seem to be the focus area of a lot of conversations this week.

Sarah Nicastro: The first is all around data. We know how incredibly important data is in today's service landscape. I think the reason that it's such a prominent part of the discussion is that it impacts so many different areas of the business. It impacts the customer journey. It impacts internal decision-making. It impacts the customer value proposition. It impacts workforce performance. It impacts so many different areas. I think we're at a point where everyone has recognized the criticality of not just data, but sophisticated data and real-time intelligence, but also the importance of what you're doing with that data. I think there was a point where just being able to collect and have the data was a point of competitive differentiation.

Sarah Nicastro: We're certainly past that point, right? We're at the point where it isn't about, can you get it? You should have it. It's about what are you doing with it? There was a number of different conversations this week about that. One was a gentleman named Len from Eppendorf, who was talking about the fact that data isn't something we should be using as an organization just to drive costs down, but also to drive revenue up, right? To think a little bit differently about what we're doing with the insights we're collecting and how they can impact the business. He also talked about the fact that, again, data itself doesn't do much, right? It's our ability to leverage it that is powerful.

Sarah Nicastro: You need to be able to take that data and tell stories with it. One of the things he mentioned that I thought was really interesting is that he has actually sent a data analyst or maybe more than one to a creative writing course to learn a bit more about storytelling. This is the idea that most people that are consuming data, whether that's your internal stakeholders or your customers, they can't, won't, or don't want to make sense of raw data. They want to know, what is the story? What is it telling me? They want you to digest, simplify and turn that into that valuable perspective. His point that he shared is that a lot of data analysts tend to be very technical.

Sarah Nicastro: They tend to be the people that can make sense more intuitively of raw data. Sometimes it's helpful to teach those people how to turn that into stories. I thought that was interesting. There was also a gentleman from Henny Penny who talked about... We talk a lot about connecting assets, but that isn't where the value comes from. The value comes from what you do with the insight from those assets to drive value. There was a session with source support and some others talking about knowledge management and knowledge capture and knowledge management, which is another really important point of collecting and leveraging data and making sure that you're retaining the insights of your valuable frontline workforce.

Sarah Nicastro: David Douglas of Scientific Games had a session on leveraging technician scorecards to drive performance. Using data to motivate the frontline workforce to meet specific KPIs, to continuously improve, et cetera. There's a number of elements to this part of the conversation. There's the infrastructure around collecting data and connecting assets. Some questions that were brought up this week were around the ownership of that data. If you're collecting data from customer locations, who owns that data and how do you handle that discussion? How do you ensure security of the data? Then once you sort out the infrastructure, there's the analysis and the storytelling aspect.

Sarah Nicastro: Of course, there's the move toward leveraging data to become more predictive and proactive. And then there's a whole separate conversation around the commercialization of data and how once you've put the infrastructure in place and once you have mastered the ability to turn data into knowledge, how do you then use that to grow revenue of your organization? A lot of conversation around data. The second key thing that came up that I wanted to share is around third party. There was a very cleverly named session called Ain't No Party Without a Third Party, which I thought was cute. In that session, Patrick Dell of Varian and Sal Accardo of ABB shared some of their thoughts around leveraging third party.

Sarah Nicastro: I think generally agreed that in the talent landscape that we have today, the reality is in some form or fashion, third party is just a necessity. I don't know that everyone would agree, but that did seem to be a common consensus here at the event. With that said, a lot of the conversation centered around if you're leveraging a third party workforce, how do you ultimately protect yourself against that workforce becoming a competition from taking customers from you? Part of that conversation was around you can't completely mitigate that risk, right? Part of it is just accepting that fact. But one of the points that was brought up is, if they can come in and beat us at this thing, what else can we do?

Sarah Nicastro: What other knowledge expertise do we have that they can't? Focusing then on what is your true competitive differentiation and how do you highlight that with your customer base, how do you ensure that you are protecting your knowledge in whatever area makes you unique. The other point that was brought up by Patrick that I really liked is he said our goal should be to make them as good as we are because the customer experience has to come first. He very honestly shared that 15 years ago, he wouldn't have said that because he didn't necessarily look at it that way. But I thought that was a very honest sharing on his part and a very mature viewpoint.

Sarah Nicastro: But that is the reality, right? Then we also had a conversation in a breakout session that I was part of with Ira of Okuma, and they have specifically a distributor network. He was talking a lot about how they use NPS scores and different customer outreach to make that relationship collaborative and to make sure that those distributors feel like partners and have that sense of a relationship. With use of third party, obviously part of it is how do you manage the knowledge sharing with those folks. And most importantly, I think, is around how you protect the brand experience for your customers when you are relying on service providers that are not your own employees to deliver that.

Sarah Nicastro: The final point that seemed to come up quite a bit was around best practices for field service management. More looking at, how do we make the most of the modern, sophisticated technology that exists today? I had a number of conversations with attendees on the side about the vendors that were at the event exhibiting and showcasing their solutions and who had popped up that was new, who had been around for a long time, who does what, et cetera. I think the reality is there are a lot of modern, sophisticated tools and a lot of that can become quite confusing for people that are looking for the best fit for their business.

Sarah Nicastro: There's certainly an argument to be made for organizations today that the more they can simplify their technology stack, the better off they are. Because when you're looking to protect the customer experience, the more systems you have in place that are sort of pieced together, the more failure points that introduces and the more complexity. On the flip side, you want to make sure that the more you fit into a single tool, you're not trading capability or value of anything else. Again, I've said this in a lot of our content, I think there is this tendency to jump to, we need to use AI because it's on the agenda and people are talking about it, without necessarily really even defining what that means.

Sarah Nicastro: Just kind of hearing it as a buzzword and knowing that or thinking that they need to be doing that. In reality, I think there needs to be a better definition of what that means and how it's purpose driven for any individual business. But as I've said many times before, when it comes to making the best use of today's technologies, the starting point is really making sure there's a strong foundation in place. I'll point back to a podcast that I did a while back with Eduardo Bonefont from Becton Dickinson. He talked a lot about them kind of taking a beat or pressing pause to reflect on what they had and what they needed.

Sarah Nicastro: Because before they added or built upon their existing infrastructure, they needed to solve some foundational problems in what was already in place, their employee engagement, et cetera. I think that's very important for companies to keep in mind. You can't just jump to what's next or what's new if you don't already have a strong level of foundational capability in place. If you do or when you do, that's when should start looking at, okay, we have mastered the basics. We have really good access to a universal source of real time information across the business. We have technicians that are efficiently and effectively utilized. We are able to provide them the information they need at their fingertips when they are on a customer site.

Sarah Nicastro: We keep good track of our inventory, those sorts of things. That's when you can start looking at how you can layer in more advanced tools. Then you can start looking at, okay, how do we leverage machine learning or artificial intelligence to move toward more predictive models or to automate more tasks? How can we maybe leverage augmented reality with our customer base or with our internal employees and teams? The reality is twofold and sometimes it's a bit of a catch 22, but there are incredibly cool and interesting technologies that are available and ready for use today. But the question companies need to ask themselves is, are they ready to make use of them?

Sarah Nicastro: If you can answer that question honestly, it just sets you up for better success, right? I think the goal... I've noticed also, the conversation has shifted to, how do we empower our frontline? It's less about how do we control them and more about how do we empower them. How do we equip them to give the customer experience and the brand perception that we want? I think that's a great place to be in the conversation. I think the frontline workforce deserves that viewpoint versus one of control. I think that's really exciting. Those are three of the big things that I took away from the conversations this week. Of course, you can always visit us at Future of Field Service to hear more and learn more.

Sarah Nicastro: If you wanted to take a look at any of the upcoming WBR Field Service events, the Field Service Europe event is in Amsterdam, November 30th and December 1st, and the Field Service Palm Springs event is, of course, in Palm Springs scheduled for April 25th through 27th of 2023. I would love to see you at either one. And in the meantime, you can stay up to date on the latest in field service right here with us at futureoffieldservice.com. You can also find us on LinkedIn, as well as Twitter @thefutureoffs. The Future of Field Service Podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. And as always, thank you for listening.

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A Woman Leader Shares Her Service Story

August 17, 2022 | 31 Mins Read

A Woman Leader Shares Her Service Story

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In a session from the Austin Live Tour, Sarah welcomes Sonya Roshek, VP Field Services at B+T Group for an open conversation about what it’s been like to work, progress, and lead in male-dominated industries. She discusses what she’s learned, what she wants others to understand, what has evolved and what still needs to evolve.

Sarah Nicastro: Welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today’s podcast is another session from our Austin Live Tour event. This one is featuring Sonya Roshek, who is the Vice President at B+T Group. Sonya has spent her entire career from her start in the military all the way through to her role at B+T. Being very often one of few if not the only female in male dominated industries and spaces. In this session at the Austin event, she shares some of her firsthand perspective. I think stories like Sonya and our collective willingness to listen to them and understand what women’s experiences are like, is very important when it comes to making changes and evolving in a way that ultimately will help us to get more women into field service. So, I hope you enjoy.

Sarah Nicastro: Alright. So Sonya has had a really interesting progression of being a woman in roles that you were probably not surrounded by many other women.

Sonya Roshek: Or none.

Sarah Nicastro: Or none. And so I can't remember who it was earlier. They asked about, "How do we get more women in service?" So, we're going to dig into that a bit. And I do think that, I said at the beginning of the day today, "I'm a big believer in the power of storytelling." I think one important thing for folks like yourselves to do is to hear stories of women that are in service and understand, "Okay, so what got them here? And what can we learn from that? What has happened that maybe they didn't leave because of, but could dissuade other women from being a part of the industry, et cetera?" So, we're going to dig into a bit of that. But before we do, tell everyone a little bit more about yourself, your role, what B+T does, and anything else you want to share? And I know it's post lunch guys, I get it. If we had cots, I would let you all take a quick 20 minute nap before we kicked off, but we don't. So if I see any snoring, I will call you out. So just be aware. Okay.

Sonya Roshek: So, I'll start with B+T. B+T Group started as an engineering company for telecommunications and then has moved more into, I call it complimentary services or construction. So, we do all of the construction for towers, on the towers, in the huts, fiber, small cells. There's lots of new small cells going in. So basically anything that makes your phone tick is kind of what we do. I was brought into to actually run the construction. And I think there's maybe one other woman that I know of, of my same grade or caliber, if you will, that works at T-Mobile that still works in construction. There's a lot of women that are in different positions, but they're more in administrative. There are very few that are actually on the construction side.

Sonya Roshek: I started my career, coming out of college and going into the army, which I still can't really figure out how I ended up that way, other than it was a good way to pay for college. So coming out of the army, I went into work for US West back in the old days in the central offices. And those were those big buildings that had those massive computers, essentially that would fill this entire room, to service basically a city like this. I'm not even sure how I got hired because as the job description said, it had all kinds of technical things on there. And I was a nuclear chemical and biological officer, I didn't know what that was. So, I think to your point, I remember getting hired and they're like, "Okay, you're going to start." And it was in Portland, Oregon. And I remember calling HR and I'm like, "Can you read me the job description?"

Sonya Roshek: I had no idea what I got hired for, and it turned out okay. But they were hiring people coming out of the military. They were hiring people of different diversity. And there was a huge age gap. Because that was back in the time where people would start a job and stay in the utilities or the telephone company for 30, 40 years. Matter of fact, there had been so many layoffs, my least senior person had more years of service than I had at age. So I think I was 24, 26 maybe. And they all had 28 years of service or more. So, not only was it a generational gap, but also quite a gender gap as well. In the central offices there was more women, but not a lot. And especially as you went outside into the field services, there was very few women. Matter of fact, you can count them on your hand.

Sonya Roshek: So, as I kind of progressed through that, I moved into, Alcatel-Lucent was, they hired me and I ended up doing the 2002 Olympics in Salt Lake City. Building the fiber optic rings there. And again, I think I had a 350 installers out in the field and might be five or six women at that point. And I actually remember having my supervisor in Idaho, he's like, "I don't want to hire women, they can't lift." I'm like, "Our job description says 50 pounds, go get a bag of dog food, put it in your office. They can pick it up, put it on their shoulder, you're hiring her." I mean, so just the discrimination and the mindset of, women can't do this. Not, "How can we engage women?" It was just, "Women can't do this." And so when I look at women in the workplace, I was talking to somebody in the back there and the reality is, it starts when we have children. We give girls a doll and we give boys a hammer and drills and a toolbox and let them go take things apart.

Sonya Roshek: We don't do that with girls. I mean, so why are we expecting girls to be in field services and be technical, because, we just don't train our girls to do that? I think it's getting better. Title IX helped a little bit. But even now dads don't want to see their girls dirty. And I think that's just a generational, I think it's a girls wear pink, boys wear blue. Why can't we just wear green and yellow? Or so I think that's where initially I think we need to start looking.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, no, that makes sense. So I think we've been at conferences together a few times. But what made me reach out to Sonya, because I've never interviewed you before. So this is happening in real time guys. But what made me reach out to you that I loved so much was, at the last Palm Springs event or maybe it was November, was it November or April?

Sonya Roshek: Palm Springs, April.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. So, you were on a panel, and I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus here. But this is just the realities of this topic. And it was about diversity and et cetera, and Maureen, and I love Maureen, but she, without realizing it. And I don't remember the specific question, but she was almost reinforcing some of the stereotypes in the way she was asking the questions to where I was kind of cringing. And you were the only person that was like, "Ah, actually I think no, and here's why." And I was like, "Okay, I love her." Because honestly, I mean, if anyone here knows Maureen, who's the event planner for that event, she's a fantastic human being. And that's the problem is a lot of this bias is unconscious. A lot of the stereotypes we have we don't even realize we have, and or are reinforcing. And I'll be really honest in saying, I have two boys and I'm not having any more kids.

Sarah Nicastro: And sometimes I get sad about the fact that I don't have an opportunity to raise a daughter in today's world. But I also realize that there's an equal opportunity for me to change this through my sons. And I recently had a big falling out with a family member who told my younger son to stop crying like a little girl, boys don't cry. And I was like, "Absolutely not. You can shut that down right now.” And he hasn’t talked to me since. But it's important for me as a mother to stand up to those things, because that's how that change happens. I don't want them thinking that they can't have emotions, or they love to wear pink and rainbow, like cool, I'm totally here for it. So, I absolutely agree with everything you've said.

Sarah Nicastro: And I think that you're right, that if we all really want to make a change in this topic, one of the things we need to do that has a longer term payoff is reflect how are we as individuals, even in our home lives and our family lives, reinforcing those stereotypes or those biases without realizing it. So because it is so baked in, especially like you said, this delineation of boy versus girl and what boys are allowed to do, say, where et cetera, and it starts with really reflecting on how we're living our lives and how that impacts what the next generation is growing up believing. I wanted to ask you, you mentioned that first role you applied to, excuse me, you had to then call them and ask them to redo back the job description, which I think is hilarious. But you also said you knew you didn't have all of the qualifications.

Sonya Roshek: I didn't have any of the qualifications.

Sarah Nicastro: Now, I want to ask you then how you had the confidence to apply anyway, because research shows that women won't apply for roles unless they meet almost a 100% of the qualifications listed for a job. Which is one of the issues we have with casting that wider net that Roy was speaking of. So, what made it different for you to just apply anyway?

Sonya Roshek: It was actually through a recruiting firm that did the young military officers. And so it was one of those places where you go and there's 30 or 50 different companies that are interviewing and it's like speed dating. You did seven interviews back to back, to back. So you didn't even know really what you were getting into. And then if they liked you, then they called you in for another secondary interview. So, I remember the recruiter though. I think you said character hiring for character. And the recruiter's like, "We're looking for somebody who's got the fire in the belly. I can't teach that. I can't change that. I can't create that. That fire in the belly of somebody that cares or that wants to go learn or understand things. We can't harvest that." So when they found somebody with fire in the belly they're like, "We want you." So, that matriculated a secondary interview where I think actually my boss at the time fell asleep in the interview. It was weird, but the long and the short of it is, he hired me and-

Sarah Nicastro: Also goes to show culture wasn't as important then.

Sonya Roshek: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: Because that would have been a red flag, right?

Sonya Roshek: Right, it was. And I mean, I didn't even know there was things called a central office and the mainframe computers. And I remember walking in there and it was so filthy. One of the technicians was training me, basically having me chase literally a piece of wire through the entire office. And I had a white sweater on and she goes, "Hmm, maybe we could get some cleaning around here." I'm like, "Hmm, evidently." So I think that, did I interview, or did I try to hire? At that point I was just coming out of the military, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I know I didn't want to be in the military anymore. Not that it wasn't a great experience.

Sonya Roshek: But to your point, the military was even more gender biased. I mean, you had, it was 10% women at that time. And as a woman you had to be not only the top 10% of the women, but you had to be better than about 70% of the men. So you had to perform better. You had to carry as much weight, otherwise you were just pushed aside. So, I mean, there was times where I literally, this big six foot guy he was like, "That radio is really heavy." I'm like, "Give it to me." And the cadre or the captains looked at me and he goes, "Hmm, you're going to be able to carry that?" "Yes, sir." Crying. You can't show fear. You can't show emotions. You had to buck up like the guys. And is that the best tactic? No. Is that how I survived? Yes.

Sarah Nicastro: Now, do you feel like the Sonya we see here today, so I can tell you have that fire in the belly, that's very clear. Do you feel you had that and that allowed you to succeed in the military? Or do you think the military shaped that?

Sonya Roshek: I think I had that. I mean, I think that's just innate to part of my personality, which I think goes to show that you can't train that. But I think that actually started with my dad. I mean, my dad would say, "Okay, come on, we're going to go do a chore today." I'm like, "Okay, are we going to go re-roof this house?" "We? Okay." I think I was 10. And it was an old, we called them the slums, but there was like seven layers of shingles on that. And we were ripping them up. And pretty soon I fell right through and my feet were dangling and my dad's like, "Well, got to get out of there." And I said, "Aren't you going to help me?" He goes, "Well, I'm going to fall through if I go over there and help you, get out."

Sonya Roshek: So, I mean, I think he shimmied the board over, but that just kind of goes to show that my dad was like, "You're coming with me. We're going to go retile." He didn't have in his brain ... Maybe I was the boy child that he wanted in the first time, because my older brother wasn't willing to go do that. So he didn't have in his brain a gender bias. And I remember even saying, or he used to say, he had the attaboy, he'd be, "Attaboy, girl, let's go." And to this day, I still think that's how the phrase should be said as, attaboy girl. And it just kind of stuck, so. But my dad was definitely part of that, "I'm not going to put a boundary on you. Let's see if you can go figure it out."

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Now, the fire in the belly, I would imagine is what kept you progressing through. So obviously you started in that initial role. You've worked in the field. So, tell us a little bit more about the trajectory?

Sonya Roshek: Coming out of the central office, and I think the other key that we don't do with women or that women and girls don't do is they don't put their hand up and say, "I'll do it. Let me try." I'd worked in the central office for about a year and a half and we were switching out the mechanical switches to a digital switch. And I'm like, "Well, I'll try it." They're like, "Well, you don't have 30 years of service. How are you going to figure this out?" I'm like, "Well, can I have this person and this person and this person and this person to build the team?" They're like, "Well, you're going to need a team, but what makes you think you can do this?" I'm like, "Did anybody else raise their hand?" So I think that's another piece that if you just try and you raise your hand, you're going to fail.

Sonya Roshek: There was a lot of things that we failed on, but giving yourself permission to fail and trying and standing back up is really a key. After that I went, got hired by the equipment manufacturer and ended up doing the services piece for the Salt Lake City Olympics, which included the fiber optic ring, the International Sports Broadcasting Center, they call them cows or cellular on wheels. And 9/11 hit during that time. And I remember getting a call from the VP and she says, "I need, how many cows can you send out to New York?" And I'm like, "None, it's four months before the Olympics. It takes about three to five years to build the network for an Olympics." And she said, "Well, you have them built, right?" I said, "Yeah, but if I send them out to New York, I'm never going to get them back." And about six months later, sorry. About six months later, I think I got it.

Sarah Nicastro: No, I just saw it fly behind you. I was hoping so.

Sonya Roshek: I know, here it is. Six months later I get a call. She actually moved me to Michigan, which was the most evil thing a person could do. And she came and had dinner with me and she goes, "I just had to meet the person that told me no in a national crisis." And I'm like, "Well, nobody would have cared four months later." She goes, "That's a good point. I didn't think about that. But she said, "That was probably the ballsiest thing I've ever had anybody do." And I think it was 28 maybe at that age. And she goes, "And did you just get out of school?" I mean, she literally couldn't-

Sarah Nicastro: Who are you?

Sonya Roshek: Yeah, that's kind of what it was. "I just had to meet you." And my boss was like, "Why is she wanting to meet you?" I'm like, "I don't know." But so after that I started into Michigan, went, did a tour in Israel doing system integration of their voice over IP switch and then came back Stateside and ended up doing a Greenfield build in Canada and microwave overlay. And now I'm running the, or rebuilding all the small cells and towers. So career wise, I think I've, I'm going to say stumbled through it. There wasn't like, "Okay, this is what I need to do next." It was, I remember being in Seattle when the first 3G network kind of came out and my boss said, "We're going to cut the staffing in two thirds." I'm like, "I think that's a terrible idea." And I gave him three different options. "Maybe we should come up with an interim term." And he's like, "Nope, we're going to cut it all off." I'm like, "Okay, you tell the customer that."

Sonya Roshek: And I remember sitting in that room and briefing the customer and every page of the PowerPoint, dead PowerPoint, went flawlessly until we got to resources. And he goes, "Well, we're going to cut by two thirds now that we're towards the end of the project." And I remember that customer, he was from AT&T, and he didn't hit the table. He's like, "Jim, every time you speak, you make me angry." And the whole table's like slid under. So we get out and he says, "Go ahead." I'm like, "Yeah, what, I told you so." I'm like, "You thought you were right. I'll let you stumble." So, I think having the courage to kind of stand up for what's right, not necessarily what the company needs or what you feel is right, but actually what is right for the end customer kind of I think definitely propelled me throughout my career.

Sarah Nicastro: I love that. So I want to give a shout out to Marnie Martin who is in the back of the room. So, in my former role, which I was in for, like I said, 11, 12 years, I was part of a culture that really disliked the same things about me that you're saying. Like speaking up, not because you want to be right, but for what's right. And having opinions and wanting to think differently or do things differently. And it was really frustrating and really soul sucking, and Marnie and I had known each other for a number of years because in that role, so I was a part of a publication. And so our advertisers were different technology providers in the field service space. And so I knew Marnie through one of her former roles. And so she reached out to me and that's how this all started. And it's been fantastic to have a mentor and a support that doesn't just appreciate that, but encourages it.

Sarah Nicastro: And I would say, the culture of the organization overall, in pockets, it is a little more challenging, but generally speaking,  is a world of difference in terms of a company that actually values diversity of thought and is willing to allow people to have a little bit more of a voice and et cetera. So, I think it's, when you all think about who are you bringing into the company and who's staying, who's thriving, who's leaving, you also need to reflect on, you can have the goal of diversity and even diversity in a specific category like women, but do you have the work life, the employee experience that supports that goal and kind of dig into is the reality matching up to what the vision is?

Sarah Nicastro: And I think it, I have a lot of respect for you, because I can just tell that grit of never knowing what backlash is going to come out of being the person that is not the yes, man. That is always willing to say-

Sonya Roshek: Or woman.

Sarah Nicastro: ... what someone doesn't want to hear. Yes, the yes, woman, it does take a lot. And I mean, I feel like I spent a lot of time battling, so anyway. Okay, so let's talk about, so you progressed all the way from the military into sort of your initial role all the way up to the VP level, all the while being typically one of you, if not the only woman. What have been some of the hardest parts of that? When have you felt the most challenged, or have you ever felt discouraged, or what have been the tough parts?

Sonya Roshek: I'm going to say this and probably regret it, but there is a lot of truth to the good old boys club and not being able to be part of the good old boys or them saying, "We're going to drop you off, because then we're going to go out." And of course do some sort of suspicious activity. Or they go play golf and they don't think that women can play golf. So, I think that that's been my biggest frustration is it's not that, there's nothing I can do about that. That is just the culture. The other piece I think is sitting in a boardroom and I'll say something and nobody even acknowledges that I said anything. And about five minutes later a gentleman will say the exact same words, "Oh, that's a great idea. Fantastic. I wonder where you came up with that one." It's shocking to me how often that happens, and-

Sarah Nicastro: Still.

Sonya Roshek: Still, still. I appreciate my boss now for the fact that he does listen and will say, "I disagree, or I like what you're saying, let's talk more about it. Or it's not quite what I'm looking for. How can we change it?" So, and he's an engineer, of course engineers are always right. And I actually had somebody ask me that when I was interviewing, they said, "How do you talk to engineers?" Like, "With my voice. Is there a certain way you're supposed to talk to them?" They're like, "Well, if you're not an engineer, how are you going to get your mission or your agenda across?" And I'm like, "I can read a set of drawings. I can look at them and tell them what's right and what's wrong." But it's still very frustrating to me that there is a believed credibility gap. So, I think that's by far my frustrating point of the locker room talk and the, it's getting better, but by far we've got a long way to go. Especially at the executive level.

Sarah Nicastro: And Sasha, I mean, you said this about your objectives for creating that at the executive level you have better parody, but then as you go down it becomes less so. And to your point, it is really hard to change that good old boys club type of vibe if those numbers are staying in the 80 and 90%, right? Which then gives the 10 or 20% of women in those roles an experience that they're probably not enjoying. So then it becomes almost like a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Do you have any thoughts on, I know you said you as an individual living it can't change it, but do you have any thoughts on how these folks in the room as leaders in their businesses can help make progress?

Sonya Roshek: I think-

Sarah Nicastro: Specifically, sorry. I was just going to say, specifically with like the good old boys club mentality and then the perceived competence?

Sonya Roshek: I think it's really just sitting down and asking for opinions. It's getting other women engaged, not putting limitations on them, not presumed limitations. It's, I think people don't even realize when they start having the locker room talk or the good old boy network, they don't, it's totally unawareness. And I'm not saying that we need to change all of our rhetoric into politically correct or any of that sort. I'm just saying, acknowledge that in fact you have that natural bias and people naturally will open a door for you. It's like, "Can I open a door for you?" So, I think it's just a consciousness and it's society has ingrained in us so much that women aren't capable or are not available or not willing to do things. And most women are willing to do that.

Sarah Nicastro: I think it's a really good point of having the conversations and listening. I mean, that's why I said the value of stories, which is why I'm thrilled to be here with you all today. I think there's so much benefit in hearing each other's perspectives. And to your point about being politically correct, I think none of us are perfect and none of us are going to do it right all the time. So I think with that, when you talk about diversity, equity and inclusion and what you can address and how, when you actually dig into what are the things working against us, like the good old boys club and this and that, the goal does not need to be perfection or political correctness. It just needs to be, I think it comes down a lot to intent and authenticity, like is the person trying to make the change doing so out of good intent and are they authentically caring?

Sarah Nicastro: Because I think people sense that so much. And I think there's experiences that can happen that aren't perfect. But if the intent is good, it's okay if it's not politically correct or perfection, it's just, there's good intent. We're learning together. We're making progress. I think one of the biggest challenges is this is another topic area where everyone says they have the intent. Everyone says they want to improve diversity, equity, inclusion, but there's a difference between the businesses that are just saying it and the ones that authentically have the desire to change it and the actions they're taking. So, it's just a totally different ball game. So I asked you about the challenges. Have there been any positives of being the only woman or one of few women in any of your career experiences?

Sonya Roshek: Yeah, first of all, I can go to any conferences, and everybody knows who I am, I don't know who they are. Roy, same one. It's like, "There's the one African American guy right there. I know who he is." So, I think that's a positive in some regards is they definitely know who I am. "Well, yeah, we introduced ourselves six times. Sorry." I think the other positive is I get to have those little micro changes and have some of that change within just individuals. I used to always get put on the diversity panel or the diversity, whatever. And it's like we do better just having a conversation around the water hole than actually trying to force people to sit and listen to a panel on diversity. That doesn't help any, it's really sit down and ask the question. What's your background? How did you get here? What do you like? What do you don't like? Because I think that brings not only the cohesiveness, but the inclusion and helps you understand where this person's coming from, versus, "Let's sit on a diversity panel and talk about women and men."

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. And I think it's, there's power in you being a strong enough woman to live some of these uncomfortable experiences and make those micro changes that will help other women. You know what I mean? I think about that a lot like myself. So, I get really frustrated with gender stereotypes, particularly as it relates to the dynamics of a marriage and motherhood. Because I, every time I'm traveling someone inevitably says, "Don't you miss your kids? Isn't it so hard?" And I'm like, "Yeah, but I also love what I do." And so there's that, like it's okay for me to have a career. But there are also times it's really hard for me personally.

Sarah Nicastro: And so I always try and remind myself that I can't want for a different perception of what motherhood or what parenthood looks like if I'm not actively taking part in creating that perception. So on the days where it does feel really shitty to be away from my kids for a long time or something and I'm kind of in my feelings, I will just remind myself that it's part of changing that perception. So yeah, I think it's interesting though how slow moving these changes are. So, how much or little do you feel things have evolved since you started your career?

Sonya Roshek: Honestly, very little, especially on the field services side. I think there's a whole lot more on maybe some more administrative, or retail, or that sort of thing. But I mean, we've talked about it before. It's like, "Oh, they have kids and they go take care of it." Well, when COVID happened, a lot of the mothers did go back and support their kids or do schooling. And why is that? Because women make 76 cents to the dollar. It's more cost effective for the woman to stay home than it is for the man. And I've even had an interview where a man literally said, "Well, I'm the man. I need to make this much money." Well, your qualifications don't say that.

Sonya Roshek: So, I think until we really stretch out and say, what is, and I've had to catch it in our own organization where it's like, we've brought in women to be project coordinators. And then we raised them through the ranks, but they're significantly below a construction manager, even though they're doing the construction manager's job or all the prep for the construction manager. So, why are we still putting them in a subordinate role? Why aren't we giving them that title and giving them the pay? And I mean, my poor HR gal, she knows that whenever I call she closes her door and takes me off of mute or off of speaker. She goes, "You are the reason why I stayed in business." I'm like, "You're welcome."

Sonya Roshek: But even having, I've had to change her mind of what to expect from women and leadership. And it's even interesting for her to have that change in dynamic where she's like, "I can't believe that we're still today in this time and we're still having these conversations." I mean, again, growing up I didn't have somebody that told me I couldn't, so I did. But I think we tell our girls, "You can't." Whether it's via words or actions.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. So, coming back to the question that got brought up earlier, what thoughts, I mean, let's do some brainstorming. How do we get more women into field service roles? Do you have any ideas?

Sonya Roshek: I talk about it. I mean, people ask me what I do and I talk about it. I brought more women into our industry than probably men, mostly because I talk with women and they're like, "Well, what do you do? How do you do it?" I'm like, "You want to do it? Let's give it a go, because it's not rocket science." So, I've brought in three women that climb towers. They actually didn't stay with our company, but moved to another company and they had an entire crew that's all women. Because it's a pretty intimate time where you're with that same four or five people for three or four weeks at a time staying in hotel rooms. And there's not porta potties out on the site. So, I mean you get pretty intimate and you have to kind of break those barriers. So I think it's just talking about it and giving people the opportunity.

Sonya Roshek: I have a young gal in Texas, and every day I talk to her I'm like, "Oh my gosh, that's me 30 years ago." I shake my head and I just throw more at her and see if she catches it. So I think it's really just encouraging those women in general and say, "Hey, do you want to try this?" I think when we think of leadership roles we think of men, we don't think of women. When we look for promotions, we think of men, we don't think of women. It's shocking to me when you are in those conversations and they do bring up a woman, they go, "She's kind of bitchy." "Well, you call it bitchy, I call it strong." You know, I think that-

Sarah Nicastro: And those are the type of unconscious biases that really exacerbate this problem. It's, I mean, it's so true. It's, at my old job I had a note in my file that I had poor emotional control, which wasn't true. I just was very, I had very strong opinions and I would voice them and they are, coming from a man that was fine. And coming from a woman, it was-

Sonya Roshek: Correct.

Sarah Nicastro: ... out of step. So it's, what are our expectations or our perceptions that we have that maybe we're not surfacing and examining? I do think you brought up a really good point. Other than just talking about it more and addressing what Roy pointed out, which is sort of like the marketing problem, I think leaders are in a position to help the change in terms of looking, proactively looking for people to become a part of it, women to become a part of it. I'm curious for those of you here, like Sasha spoke this morning right off the top about the metrics of male versus female in different categories of the business. Do you all know those by heart? Everyone? Yes? No?

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Because I think that's another good point. We change what we measure. So, does a company, or does an individual even care enough to know what those numbers are to work toward change? I think, the other thing, so I think Roy brought up a really good point when we get to travel. So if we talk specifically about field technicians, I think there's some potential depending on industry to get creative there. So maybe you can do a rotating schedule. Maybe you can do a four day work week. Maybe you can do, I don't know what, right? But again, I would urge each of you not to just stick with the historical and the assumption of, "Well, it is what it is and it can't change."

Sarah Nicastro: And I would also say like, I travel a lot. I mean, I'm not a field technician, but I travel a lot and my husband stays home with our kids. I mean, he works, but he doesn't travel, and I do. And so that isn't the norm, but it's also not necessarily a deal breaker if we're doing a good job of explaining the opportunity that exists in the profession, particularly as it relates to that path and the trajectory. So, I think those are some important things to think about. All right, so if you were to take your lessons learned and give that woman you said you see as yourself 30 years ago some advice based on your experience, what would it be?

Sonya Roshek: Don't let anybody tell you that you can't. I mean, she's living proof that, I mean, she started as a coordinator three years ago and she's now running a major program in north Texas. So, it's asking questions. It's, don't be afraid to say, "I want that job." When I interviewed, I just promoted her, but when I interviewed her I had never really, she was three or four levels below me. So, when I pulled up her resume I was actually shocked. She had her master's degree out of London, and I also had her personality profile and I was like, "Her degree didn't match her personality profile." And I'm like, "What? This doesn't make any sense?" And she goes, "Yeah, I hated that degree, did not fit." I'm like, "Okay, now it makes sense."

Sonya Roshek: But I think just, I mean, what I thought was going to be a 15 minute interview of, "You don't have enough experience. You don't have blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." All the reasons why I was going to dismiss her all of a sudden just turned. So listening and putting herself out there saying, "I think I can do this." And she has just blown me away every time. And it's interesting when you want something done detailed, a lot of times we give it to the women, because they're very detailed and they're very conscientious of what it is they need. I won't really give it to a guy because they'll go take a hammer and smash it. So, and again, that's my own biases, but I think is also real and we do that a lot where it's like, "Oh, I need my assistant." "Oh, okay. It's a woman." Rarely is an assistant a man. So, but I just, don't let anybody say you can't.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. If you had to give these folks one piece of advice on what they could or should do differently or in addition to what they're doing, what would it be?

Sonya Roshek: Understand and know your own biases, because even what comes out of my mouth sometimes I go, "Ooh, I shouldn't have said that. Or that's not what I'm thinking or that's not what I feel." But we're so ingrained with messages on TV or on Facebook or ads that it subconsciously just works in your head. So, I think you have to actively change the way we think.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. What are your current areas of focus at B+T?

Sonya Roshek: A couple years back we did, the industry as a whole had a huge safety problem. We had people falling off the towers left and right. And a lot of that was based on the fact that before you didn't have to tie off and now you have to tie off. Shocker, you don't fall. So, I had my safety guys coming into the office and yelling at me saying that people aren't climbing safe and we had hired literally into the industry hundreds of people and trying to train them and get them up. And the only thing we kept saying is, "Make sure you're tied off in two places." And sure enough, the guy was tied off in two places, but he was not tied off accurately. So we kind of retrained and said, "What do we got to do something different?"

Sonya Roshek: And the safety guys locked me in a room with all the directors and went through all these safety issues. And I was like, "Okay, I don't need a checklist. I don't need a PowerPoint, because they don't read and they will pencil up all your checklists. So we need something that's hands on, that's tactile that we can teach and learn." So we kind of came up with a, I called it safety-based skills training. That changed, about six months later we got the entire industry engaged and it's now a certification. So, and I think I'm the only female that's certified all the way up through foreman, but it is a tower of communications certification. It's ANSI certified and it's no different than the crane operators. They have to go through, after about six, eight months of training they actually go through a test, both written and practical, and have to pass that. That's now also getting written into the contracts with AT&T, Verizon, T-Mobile of having to have somebody certified on the job site.

Sonya Roshek: It's already in the last five years changed how incident rates, safety falls significantly. And I know it's cliche and I'm not probably the biggest safety person in the world, as I climbed on a ladder and used a chainsaw to cut down a fence. But I think that the reality is people go to work to provide for the family. They don't go to work to get hurt and become potentially life crippled. So to me that's kind of changed the passion and how I view what I expect out of people, whether it's they're limiting their hours to 60 hours a week so that they don't fall asleep driving, or don't cut themselves because they're not paying attention. So, really what I'm trying to do is change that culture so that it's not like a safety guy walking around saying, "I'm going to save your life." But more of, "I value your life. I value what you're doing and how do you do your job safely."

Sonya Roshek: So, and the other piece of that is just mentoring. I used to kind of be a knuckle-dragger and power my way through everything. And now I kind sit back and just ask questions, "And well, how come we're doing it that way? Why are we ordering it this way?" Instead of saying, "I know what the answer is." But letting them get there and doing a lot more mentoring. So both for women and men. I wouldn't have got through my career without some amazing men in my path that had gave me a chance. Sometimes I didn't let them, but I just told them I was going to do it. So, but I mean, safety is paramount. If you get hurt, your production goes down, everybody gets down.

Sarah Nicastro: That makes sense. 

Sarah Nicastro: Alright, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Sonya. I really admire her “fire in the belly,” as she refers to it, and her willingness to share so openly, So Sonya, thank you for that and thank you for tuning in. Be sure to visit us at futureoffieldservice.com for more. You can also find us on LinkedIn as well as Twitter @thefutureofFS. The future of field service podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thank you for listening. 

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