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My Thoughts on Modern Leadership: Curiosity, Community and Change

Future of Field Service Nashville + IFS Connect Highlights

Save Us from Ourselves: Breaking Industry Echo Chambers

January 15, 2025 | 39 Mins Read

How and Why Service Leaders Need to Evolve in 2025

January 15, 2025 | 39 Mins Read

How and Why Service Leaders Need to Evolve in 2025

Episode 299

As we gear up for all the action 2025 is sure to bring our way, host Sara Nicastro welcomes Roy Dockery, once again, for an insightful and provocative episode of Unscripted. The Director of Field Service Research at TSIA brings new perspectives backed by recent experiences to the conversation, shining a light on the critical ways in which field service leaders need to adapt and change their leadership styles this year.

Tabling thought-provoking ideas, the two discuss the many shifts that need to take place, the first being that of a shift away from a culture of complaining with field service organizations. The conversation underscores the role of service leaders in fostering a positive workplace, emphasizing the necessity of being a “translation engine”, learning to speak the language of other departments, ensuring that their insights and challenges are understood and addressed at the executive level. They further unpack the importance of values like empathy, curiosity, proactiveness and collaboration, which can elevate the impact of field service leaders in the industry. They also consider the impact of AI and automation on the field service industry, discussing how leaders can remain relevant by focusing on strategic thinking and emotional intelligence rather than getting bogged down in tactical firefighting.

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Episode Transcript:

Roy - 00:00:00: I think in field service, we have to kill the culture of complaining. Yeah, like I just said, because we speak a different language, we tend to get frustrated that other people don't hear us. And then because we all speak the same language amongst our management team, our directors, our field service engineers, we complain that sales doesn't get it and HR doesn't get it and these people don't get it. So within your organization, you create a culture of complaining about the fact that the rest of the organization doesn't understand you. The rest of the organization doesn't, you know. And it creates a weird disconnect within the organization. It creates a lack of like horizontal transfer. So then field service engineers don't want to go work in engineering. They don't want to transfer to customer success and like spread that DNA to the rest of the organization.

Sarah - 00:00:55: Welcome to the UNSCRIPTED Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. At this point, today's guest probably doesn't need a huge introduction. Many of you know him from his multiple roles in the space or his LinkedIn. And he's also been a guest on the podcast a number of times before. So, Mr. Roy Dockery, welcome back to the podcast.

Roy - 00:01:30: Thank you, Sarah. And Happy New Year. It's 2025. We have been doing this for a long time now.

Sarah - 00:01:35: Yes, yes, yes. Now, former, well, former military, but we don't need to go back that far. Former service leader, author of The Art of Leading, also consultant and advisor. And you have, since your last appearance on the podcast, added a new role to your repertoire. So, you are also now the director of field service research at TSIA. So, tell everyone a little bit about getting into the world of research.

Roy - 00:02:06: Yeah. So it's not something that I thought I would be doing, right? I know you and I talked about this, right? I've done podcasts, I've done content creation, role books and consulting, but I always just enjoyed being a service leader, right? So thinking about progression of a career, it's like lead more people, lead bigger teams, keep kind of moving up vertically on a ladder. And so when I transitioned earlier this year, and like you said, just started doing some consulting, I traveled to Sweden with you, which was super fun. The food was amazing. I had to contend with all the Swifties that were running around.

Sarah - 00:02:34: Yes, yes, yes. But we didn't make it to the show, which is unfortunate.

Roy - 00:02:39: We did not. But going through that, going through that time period, right? Like I said, this was doing consulting, helping people with leadership. And I really like enjoyed being able to kind of like engage with companies at a larger level and being able to impact multiple organizations. And so I don't even know if I think I've shared this with you, but so I made a video on my, like you said, I make a lot of content on LinkedIn and I made a video about the fact that, I have a passion for field service. I love the industry. And I kind of want to evangelize the industry, right? Like I really want to share across generations, the jobs that are available, the things that people can do, the economic opportunity, the experience that people are looking for. And I posted that on all of my social medias, LinkedIn, TikTok, and everything else. And back when I worked in healthcare technology, I was a member of TSIA. And several people at TSIA still follow me on LinkedIn. And one of my former, my former account executive saw my video. And then he messaged me on LinkedIn that same day. It was like, what you just described, we're actually hiring for, right? Because I'm thinking like, okay, this is something I'll just do. I can consult and kind of keep doing content. And when he sent me the job description, it was like exactly what I had just described on LinkedIn or in my video. And so I was like, well, that's not what I thought I would do. Right. I was thinking about consulting, maybe going to run another service organization. So landing on, okay, I can be in a position where I call it the intersection, right? Like I'm TSIA. The intersection of technology and then the industry. So we've got all the partners that come to our events that come to our shows, but then we have all of our members that we provide support for across different segments of the technology industry. And when you want to evangelize, right, you want to be at a busy intersection so that the message gets relayed. So I made that decision, joined back in August of last year, and it's been fun, right? I always joke with my members when I'm on the phone and I'm like, that's great. Like we just talked about a lot of problems. Now you get to go work on them and I don't have to. Because for 14 years, I was the one in the seat that had to drive it. So it's really, it's almost like, and I think most people don't, like I do counseling and mentoring and things of that nature as well. But it's like counseling for me, right? It's like counseling other leaders and executives on the challenges they're going through, some of the foundational things that they can address. And being able to do that for small companies, medium companies, and large companies, I get to impact dozens of companies a week, thousands of people a week versus one organization, one vertical, or one team. And so that's where I am and been enjoying it. We had our conference in October, got our next one coming up in May. And so it's been fun to work with our members and keep working to try to grow that out and do what's needed for the field service practice so that we keep moving forward and that we're kind of staying ahead of the curve instead of always playing catch up.

Sarah - 00:05:27: Yeah, I like the description of the intersection. I don't feel dissimilar, right, in the roles that I've played in this space. And it's nice because to your point, the work that you've done as a service leader in the different businesses you've been a part of, you had a massive impact on those organizations, right? And of course, when you speak at conferences and you do what you do in terms of sharing your knowledge on LinkedIn, you have some ability to impact other organizations. But in the role you're in now, you're able to take not only what you've learned from, your past experiences and also blend that with TSIA's expertise to help a number of people. And that's what I've always been passionate about. When you start talking to a high volume of service leaders week after week, like you really get that true sense of how common the challenges are and how you can start making those connections in a way that the change that's needed can catch on and we can move the industry forward. So.

Roy - 00:06:30: Yeah. And I was talking to somebody yesterday and it's exactly what you said. The interesting thing is when you're the field service voice within your company, you're the only field service voice within your company. So you feel crazy. You feel like John the Baptist screaming in the wilderness, right? Like, cause no one else really speaks your language. You're at the bottom of the, of like the outcome. So like you're the sales and the engineering and the projects, everything lands on you. So it's almost like you're speaking a foreign language internal to your company. But then like, I get to hear the message from all of these people. And even when we have our event, that's why field service events are so, are so popular because you get to go and hear somebody speak your language. So it's fun for me because I speak that language, but I also spent enough time in a senior executive role that I can help them speak the other languages as well. I speak finance and engineering and software support and supply chain. So I can, whatever question you have, I can help you position it in a way where you can start getting the other organizations to see the needs of field service instead of just always kind of being at the outcome in, of the decision tree and start to leverage it, influence the rest of your organization as well.

Sarah - 00:07:40: Yeah. When we have done the future field service events, like you came to in Stockholm last year, and whenever we have the opportunity to bring that community together in person, I would say the most frequent feedback I've gotten is I feel so much less alone. And it's honestly my favorite thing, right? Because, you know, that takes an amount of time. Of pressure off, it lets you know that there's a community around you that is working toward the same objective, struggling with the same challenges. And when you're able to bring people together to share their experiences and build that collective knowledge, that's what it's all about. Okay, so today we're going to talk about, we're going to combine your, leadership, expertise and your service expertise into talking about three ways service leaders should evolve in 2025. So hit me with number one.

Roy - 00:08:42: All right. So the first one's going to make some people, we're going to lose some friends. I think in field service, we have to kill the culture of complaining. Yeah, like I just said, because we speak a different language, we tend to get frustrated that other people don't hear us. And then because we all speak the same language amongst our management team, our directors, our field service engineers, we complain that sales doesn't get it and HR doesn't get it and these people don't get it. So within your organization, you create a culture of complaining about the fact that the rest of the organization doesn't understand you. The rest of the organization doesn't, you know, and it creates a weird disconnect within the organization. It creates a lack of like horizontal transfers. So then field service engineers don't want to go work in engineering. They don't want to transfer to customer success and like spread that DNA to the rest of the organization. And I think I learned that probably seven or eight years into my career when you started hearing like your complaints that you think you're just venting. You start seeing it actually become a tangible part of your organizational culture, because when someone that you've never directly spoke to before brings the same complaint that you echoed back to you, you're like, oh, this is going further than I thought it was going. And so I think it's creating like a lack of interest. I think it leads to attrition because the thing is some and I ask this question all the time when people have high attrition, right? Like who's leaving? Are your senior technicians leaving or are your new technicians leaving? And it's normally the new technicians leaving. And the reason they're leaving is because the culture of complaining. Because the people who have been there for 25 years make $90,000 a year as a technician, and they're not going anywhere, right? Because they have expertise, they have domain knowledge. But when they constantly complain to the new people, that new person gets kind of embittered, and they're like, why do I want to be here, right? So everyone's losing their one- to two-year technicians because they're being poisoned by a culture of complaining that we all complain about our senior techs and the grumpy manager, but it actually comes from us as the leaders. And because we make it seem like no one understands us, no one speaks our language, what we should do as the leaders is we have to learn everyone else's language. We've got to be the Rosetta Stone, and then we've got to take the concerns of our organization and go effectively communicate it to those teams in their language so that our team feels heard, because that's going to create a culture where people want to stay. It's going to create a culture where you develop leaders that vertically move up, but it's also going to create a culture where your people move horizontally, and now you've got field service. I call it spreading field service DNA, right? Like when I worked at Swisslog, we wound up having field service people in engineering, in the warehouse, in sales, in customer success. And so they all speak my language. So now I have someone in customer success who understands me. I have someone in sales who understands me. But if you make it, it's us against the world, which a lot of times we do. You don't get that growth, and you create an environment where people tend to leave, especially if they're new. It doesn't feel healthy, and it doesn't feel productive.

Sarah - 00:11:54: I think that's a very good point. Leaning into the, probably in many instances, valid frustrations of not feeling understood. I'm going to focus my comment more on the senior leadership in service, right? Leaning into that, you're just further ostracizing yourself and the function from the business, right? And then all of those ripple effect things you talked about. I think though, the only thing I would add to what you said is you talked about speaking the languages of the other functions and understanding how to reframe some of the challenges into terms that they will understand. I think it's just important to also, especially if you're trying to minimize or eliminate a culture of complaining, to think about not only how you translate the challenges, but the opportunities. Because even when you are presenting opportunities, if you are presenting them in the language that the other functions of the business don't understand, it's just noise. They don't see the value in it, which then fuels that frustration, right? Because the service leader is saying, I'm telling you X. So also think about how you adopt that language both to resolve some of the challenges, but also to articulate the opportunities that we know service leaders see that are relevant for the business that maybe aren't getting through because they're not being spoken about in language those people care about.

Roy - 00:13:18: Yeah, and I completely agree. And especially when you talk about, and I know you deal a lot with customer engagement, right? Like, especially when you think about the customers, because we are the ones that hear most of the things, but we bring them in our field service language. So then sales is like, I don't know what that is. And engineering is like, so like take the customer complaint and I'm going to translate it into sales. And then I'm going to translate it into finance or because it is an opportunity, right? Where if we just relay the complaint, they're going to be like, I don't know what that means. Right? But what the complaint is an opportunity for you to close the gap, deliver a different service solution. But if we just relay the complaint, then people don't know what to do. And then, like you said, it fuels the frustration. It's like, no one's listening to the customer. It's like, no, they don't understand that language. Right? So you've got to put it in terms that they understand. Like when you're developing a product, you got to give the product team an MVP, right? What's the minimal viable product. Like what's the, that's what they need. Right? And so like when you learn to speak that way and understand, speak incentives, and sales and targets in revenue, when you're talking to the sales team, a complaint does not equal revenue unless that complaint is a product that could be sold that is revenue. So I completely agree on that side that you've got to reframe opportunities as well.

Sarah - 00:14:31: All right. What's number two? All right.

Roy - 00:14:32: And I know you touch on this a little bit in your 2025 predictions, right? But it's I think you called it storytelling. But I also want to say it kind of goes into what we were just talking about a little bit. But we've got to become we've got to be that translation engine. Right. So we have to learn and most field service organizations do not report directly into the CEO. So we're kind of outside of the C-suite table. But we have to learn how to speak C-suite. So we can't just go in and say, hey, our techs are doing X, Y and Z. And we can't speak the same way that we speak to our organizations downstream. We have to because we're at the end of the value chain in most of these situations. So we've got to know how to speak to everyone upstream from us, which is project management, pre-sales activities, legal contracts. Right. The product, the marketing, like we've got to understand all of that. And so we talked about that a little bit, but that's my major second one is like I call it field service should be a Rosetta Stone. So it doesn't matter what's going on. I should be able to take a problem to the CTO, the CFO, the CEO, the COO and be able to translate it to them in a way where they can take action for what I'm saying. And they don't have to go figure out, okay, what does that mean? How does that translate? Like, no, translate it for them and deliver it to them, because we have to realize that people don't- Everyone in field service probably agree. People don't fully understand what we do.

Sarah - 00:15:59: Right.

Roy - 00:15:59: So we get frustrated by that, but it's not their responsibility to understand what we do.

Sarah - 00:16:04: Mm-hmm.

Roy - 00:16:04: Right? We have to deliver what they sell. So we have to understand what's being given to us because we have to go deliver it to the customer. But like I said, kind of to the first one, instead of complaining about that, like spend time learning to speak that language. Like I remember I spent I used to spend a lot of time with our principal engineer.

Sarah - 00:16:23: Yeah.

Roy - 00:16:23: Because he had a lot of influence on our VP of engineering. So if I could get him to understand what I was saying, then I heard my thoughts through him come out of the VP of engineering.

Sarah - 00:16:35: Mm-hmm.

Roy - 00:16:36: And I was like, oh, like as long as if I can speak his language, he can get it to leadership because he speaks better engineer than I do.

Sarah - 00:16:44: Right.

Roy - 00:16:45: At least I can communicate with him on a software level or on a hardware level and work that way. And the same thing with our my sales colleagues and other people as well.

Sarah - 00:16:53: Mm-hmm.

Roy - 00:16:53: We have to learn how to do that if we want to take advantage of opportunities and also if we want to address some of those challenges that are in front of us.

Sarah - 00:17:01: Yeah. So I think if we take that point a step further, right? So like when you're talking about working with the engineering person, because that person's close to the VP of engineering almost can be your... Go between right and yeah in a way you're building inroads right like you're being smart about taking steps to get the message where it needs to go in a way that's going to make sense I think the other part, if we think about how what you're talking about applies differently in different organizations, right? Some companies are further along in sort of understanding the role and the value of the service function and leveraging it appropriately. Others are miles, miles, miles away. And hosts are somewhere in between, right? But for the service leader who is further away, feeling really on the outside, feeling really not understood, I would urge them to start by understanding, like really understanding the core objectives of the CEO. And if you're going to learn the language, right, start with figuring out. What you can share that can help with those. Because if you want to be successful getting someone's attention and you ultimately want to build a common language with them and have them listen to you more, you need to start by talking about what's important to them, right? And the thing that is incredible about service is how much it can play a role in... Not only all of the other functions of the business, but many of the strategic objectives that people in that C-suite don't necessarily correlate service to, right? So if it's diversifying revenue, right? Maybe you have ideas in your role about different offerings you could be providing that you're sitting back rolling your eyes because no one wants to listen to, right? But if you can go to someone and say, I know that diversification of revenue is very important to you. I have an idea for how we could help with that. You might get their attention, right? If your company is highly focused on sustainability, right? There's a lot of ways that people don't necessarily think about that service can play a role in. Not only the company's targets and changing things to help from that front, but also positioning it with customers, right? So I think it's speaking the language is right. But I would just say if you're really on the outside, take it a step further and start by speaking the language around things that are most important to them. And they might not be the same as what's most important to you. But like if you start with what's most important to them, you're ultimately going to get further along.

Roy - 00:19:55: Yeah. And like you said, when you're trying to help them, and I guess the other thing I'd say as well, and I completely agree with that, it's like a lot of times you're in a role, you're a VP or a senior VP, you think your title gives you influence and it doesn't. Relationship gives you influence. And like you said, when you're trying to build that relationship, talking to them and everybody will tell you in counseling or whatever else, right? Like what is important to that person? And like, and that's, so even when I talk about like speaking their language, I'm talking about exactly what you're talking about, right? It's going like, like when I went to the principal engineer, I'm like, what are you struggling with?

Sarah - 00:20:28: Right.

Roy - 00:20:28: And he was struggling with escalations that were coming down to him. But most of those started in the field with me. No one listened. And then it got out of hand and the customer got really pissed. And then it went from the CEO to his VP to him. So like what I started doing is like before I was escalating things to my counterpart, right? Or things are getting escalated to my boss. I just started telling my team, take it to the principal engineer. Like he wants to fix it as well.

Sarah - 00:20:53: Yeah.

Roy - 00:20:54: And he can actually fix it. He's the person who knows the code. He wrote it like his blood and his DNA is in those, are in those lines. And I think that's what it is. And it was funny because the weirdest compliment that I got when I left my healthcare technology company to shift is one of our sales executives. He told me, he said, Roy, you're the most sales friendly service executive I've ever met. And it was weirdly like uncomfortable to me because I always, you know, there's always a weird tension between service and sales, but I know that I always was intentional about making sure that my team knew like it's their job to sell. They have a sales target. They've got revenue. They didn't design the product. They didn't make the product. They didn't ship the product. Stop getting mad at the salesman. If something doesn't work or if the customer overbought or if the customer underbought, like that is just their job, they're doing their job. Right. And like, let us help them be successful. If anything, let's teach them more about the equipment. Let's teach them what problems these things solve. Let's go with them. Let's send some of our technical experts on our site visits. And because at the end of the day, they want to be successful. Because the first sale is good. All the recurring sales in the referrals is better. So they don't want the customer to be unhappy because then they don't have a referral.

Sarah - 00:22:03: Right.

Roy - 00:22:04: So like we have a common interest is you want your customer to be happy. And to your point, how can I help you make the customer happy? And that's from the estimate. During the pre-sales process, during the project, at the handover, what service they buy, how we treat them during warranty. And when we make sure the customer is taken care of, then when that health care director goes to another hospital, now they want your technology over there because they were taken care of. And that just developed a good relationship between us and sales. It still got tense, right? We argued about estimates and work, but we were ultimately, we had the same goal. We want the customer to be happy, right? So that they recommend more business. And that's what we just built a healthy relationship to do so. But we had to learn to speak their language and we had to teach them some of what we were saying because they were also talking to technical people, right? So when you're talking to the VP of operations, he doesn't speak sales either. So it's helpful for you to learn from us because we make you more effective at speaking with them. So ultimately, it winds up helping everybody out. But internally, it definitely improved that relationship.

Sarah - 00:23:11: Yeah, and I think what you just said, use that common interest to create the common language, right? Like... Honestly, I mean, if more companies did that, they would be markably more successful, right? We talk about all of these silos that exist, and the customer is the common interest across all of them. The problem is they're so deeply embedded in organizations through the different language, which is reinforced by different KPIs, which is exacerbated by different use of technology. You know what I mean? Like, if we just looked more at, I think the companies that are leading the way are using the customer experience as the common interest to start creating a playbook that everyone can kind of rally around.

Roy - 00:23:57: You said one thing that I think is really good, which is the silos are based on our metrics. Everybody's just trying to attack their goals. And we make conflicting and contradictory goals within a company. Yeah. Where if I 100% just focus on my metrics, I'd be screwing half of the rest of the company. So it creates a silo just around those. But when we're all driving customer experience or retention or growth, those are the things at the high level. And so when we all speak there, it helps because, yeah, we got to be good at our individual functions, but it can't be at the risk of causing pain in another part of the business.

Sarah - 00:24:34: Right. And I think understanding that, right? Like, I mean, the fact that persists, it infuriates me. Okay. Because, whoever is at the top of those companies, like, really should be thinking about how are we working at odds with one another. Right. But it happens everywhere. Right. But going back to your point, which is being the Rosetta Stone, the more you can look through a lens of empathy and understand that the person that runs the other department that you want to punch in the face isn't really an a-hole. They're just doing the job they've been incentivized to do. Right. So.

Roy - 00:25:11: Yeah.

Sarah - 00:25:12: It's like, I think when you get that sense of frustration, it can be, it feels very personal. Right. But if you can step back and see that. They're probably not a jerk. They're just incentivized differently and focused on doing their part, right? So it can, I think, diffuse some of the emotion that exacerbates that. Culture of complaining and like just putting yourself further and further away from creators.

Roy - 00:25:39: And you said a good word, which I know you read my book. I talk about that in my book, right? Like that's empathy, right? Like it's empathy for like, I know you have sales targets. So you might oversell.

Sarah - 00:25:48: What's the common ground, right?

Roy - 00:25:49: Over promise, right? Like, all right, I get it. So I see why you did that. You aren't, and I would always tell people, no one's trying to hurt us.

Sarah - 00:25:56: Right.

Roy - 00:25:57: No one's intentionally, maliciously trying to ruin your day. It might happen, but no one's doing it on purpose. And like, once you understand that, it lets you step back a bit and then try to understand, okay, why would they do that? And then, like you said, it's because they're incentivized to do it that way. Or sometimes they just don't know. They need training. They might be new, right? Like there could be changes in process. But I mean, I've been, you and I have been in this industry for a long time. 95% of the time, it has never been malicious, right? Like there was like some jerk that got fired somewhere that was just trying to ruin everybody's life. But for the most part, people are trying to do their job. We just have natural conflicts. And when we don't talk about them, it seems personal. But it's really not, right? They're just doing their job, right? But we get so focused on our lane. Sometimes we don't pay attention to where other people are trying to merge or where there are opportunities for us to work better together. So.

Sarah - 00:26:49: Yeah. Okay, what's number three?

Roy - 00:26:53: All right, last one and quick one. Field service is a reactive organization by nature. And so what I want to say is that our teams should be firefighters. Our teams should be reactive. We as the service leaders need to be forecasters and not storm chasers. Like let our team go run once the tornado touchdown. Like let them do that. Because the funny thing, and I know for me, it took me a long time because we enjoy that. A lot of us come from that. So we tend to lean more towards getting into the tactical, getting into the problem resolution. When we actually need to sit back and into what we're talking about, we need to look across the silos. You need to go forecast and say, hold on. Our sales department just got a 30% revenue increase target. Our product team just got told that they need to make three new widgets in the next two years and say, how does that affect us? How is that going to affect my headcount? How is that going to affect my employee training? Or we're already seeing the decline. We got a bunch of people retiring. Instead of waiting and then reactively saying, hey, HR, I need a bunch of people. Let's develop your own workforce strategy and say, I need some apprentices. I need entry-level positions. I need people to start coming in and shadowing my senior employees because I don't want to lose this knowledge. And I'm guilty of it as well. I did it my whole career. I used to get excited and I used to get bored. I actually was mad. At some point, I used to tell my employees, y'all have all the fun. Like, once they were able to handle the escalations, we spoke the same language. They knew how to work with cross-functional partners. I'm like, I'm just sitting up here doing strategic planning. It's boring. It's not as fun. You need to do that for your team. You need to be the person that's at the helm saying, okay, like you said, where's the CEO trying to go? Where's the organization trying to go? Let me make sure I'm focusing. The vast majority of my time, of forecasting how that's going to impact field service. Because no one else is going to do that.

Sarah - 00:28:58: Yeah.

Roy - 00:28:58: Right? And then you're going to land at year-three of the five-year plan. And now you got to go double the size of your field service organization in six months because the product is ready.

Sarah - 00:29:09: Yeah.

Roy - 00:29:09: Right? So I think we've got to be more intentional about pulling ourselves out of our natural inclination to be technical. I mean, to be tactical and technical and into the problems. And then we've actually got to look at the company as a problem and say, what is the field service solution to the company's problem, not the customer's problem. So let your team deal with the customer's problems. And then you look at what field service problems are going to become prevalent because of our technology, because the industry is changing, because of hiring changes, because of pricing constraints, because of material restrictions, because of the availability of company vehicles. Right? Or all of this other stuff that can impact your team. Because if not, we're just kind of like a victim of circumstances. And then it puts us in a situation where we're scrambling. It becomes more expensive. It's more deconstructive in that way. But yeah, but it's pulling us out of our natural habitat. Most of us who are service executive, or at least from my network and the people that you know, we love the problems. We love the customers. We love diving into it. It energizes us. We enjoy it. But we've got to shift to what are the future problems the company is going to have with field service. And then start working on ways to resolve that. And then trusting our teams, our directors, our managers, or our other VPs, if you're a senior VP, to take care of the customers every day. Right? I feel like 80% of your job should not be interacting with customers.

Sarah - 00:30:37: Yeah.

Roy - 00:30:37: That should be 20% of your job or less. 80% of your job should be leading your team so that they're effective. And then making sure that the field service organization is ready for wherever the organization is trying to go. Because that keeps you learning. It keeps you engaged. It keeps you jumping into those silos and going to spend time with the product team. Like, what the heck are you making? And what is that going to look like? Or working with finance? And what are our targets? And being able to plan that way. And so I think that's the other thing that we've got to do. And it's got to become a normal rhythm for us to test that. Right? And if we're drifting too much into the tactical, and if we're spending too much time troubleshooting and solving problems, we've got to pull ourselves up. Because while we're that deep down, something's being missed. That's the strategic level that we're going to have to respond to later. That's going to cause us a lot of pain and frustration.

Sarah - 00:31:26: So you know me well enough to know I would never weave AI into a conversation unless it was genuine, but... Here is what listening to you talk about that third point just made me think. A leader who is not putting ample time, effort, energy into being strategic and is not pushing themselves to get to a level of emotional intelligence that they can adeptly communicate across silos of the business.

Roy - 00:32:00: Yeah.

Sarah - 00:32:01: Those are the leaders that people think about when they think about AI replacing jobs. Because you're not doing, I mean, I'm just saying right now, like the big conversation around AI, is it going to take my job? How many jobs is it going to take? I just saw a statistic that came out this morning that said the World Economic Forum showed that 41%% of employers intend to downsize their workforce. Through AI automation, I think by 2030, right? So my point is the firefighting part is the part where technology and automation can help the most. I have never felt it can help entirely in field service. I never will, right? Like to me, that's just not feasible. But my point is, if you stay stuck in the tactical, if you stay complaining, if you stay unwilling or unable to understand and speak to the challenges across the organization and the company's strategic priorities, like you will very quickly work yourself out of a job because you're not then doing anything that is centered in the skill sets that are going to be most in demand in the next phases of the business.

Roy - 00:33:19: I completely agree. And one of the reasons, right? AI is good. And I mean, this is all going to get better, right? You got agentic AI and all this stuff that's coming on GenAI, but AI is good at answering questions based on unstructured and structured data now. What AI isn't good at is asking questions that no one's asking, right? So in that form, when I talk about like, when you pivot away from, like you understand this, you know what technically needs to be done. So what you're talking about being easily replaced is what a lot of us as executives have done is we have the knowledge of what points need to be connected to be successful. But you could also look at historical data and know the same thing. So you know exactly who to call to get the right answer. So does your phone records. So does the service ticket history. But like, it's all in your brain. So like, it's an easy neurological path that you can just, you can get there. So when, if all we're doing is coaching the team, if all we're doing is directing the players on the board, that's just like nobody can beat AI at chess right now. It's better than you, right? Because it's taking more things and more signals into consideration. But AI can't, can't go to the, right? Like can't go ask the questions to the finance department or the product team about something that doesn't exist yet. Right? The product isn't here. There's no data on the product. The product is a thought. It's an idea. It's an alpha. It's in beta. That's where you should be spending your time as a leader. Because to your point, if I'm in the present, AI is going to become better at making decisions on present information than you are. Right? So like, you've got to be in the future a bit in helping guide that navigation. And asking the right questions. Because to your point, until things that operate 10 fingers extremely precisely. At a very cheap cost, field service isn't going anywhere, right? Like you still need people to fix things and climb ladders and go under houses and climb. Like that's still a very expensive robot at this point. And we're not at that point in society. But yeah, just moving the pieces around on the chessboard and knowing tactically the best person to sit in here, the best person to sit in there, like AI can do that now. So we've got to be better at asking the questions about the things that don't exist yet, right? We've got to be more creative. We've got to be more future focused. But I agree. And like you said, and that's why we've seen a lot of kind of stale outs and a lot of organizational shifts within field service where a lot of VP roles are eliminated. A lot of things are being shuffled around because I think a lot of us were tactical for so long that the organizations didn't see us as like a future forward thinking asset, right? So when they do a reorg or they got to look at a cost structure, they're like, well, like the pieces can move themselves on the board, at this point, and that was always a question for me when I was an executive, like, does my team need me?

Sarah - 00:36:07: Right.

Roy - 00:36:08: Right. And if they don't need me, I should go because I'm not adding value, right? Like if they don't need to tell me to move around or what to do, if they've been taught, if they lead well, then I don't need to be here, right? And like you said, in both of my transitions, that's why I made my transition. My team didn't need me anymore. Like they were good. They were just as good at doing what I was doing as I was. So I'm like, let me go do something else and have an opportunity to do something forward thinking in advance, but.

Sarah - 00:36:34: I think what is even scarier than becoming irrelevant because you stay stuck in the tactical as a leader, right, is really, I mean, it comes down to like bringing the three points you made all together, which is having the good ideas about the future and the questions that would get you there. But being so frustrated that you do nothing more than bitch about it. Or being so unable to translate your ideas or your questions into the language of others.

Roy - 00:37:10: Yeah.

Sarah - 00:37:10: That like to me, that's a worse fate, right? Because I think a lot of going back to your advice, I think there's a fair amount of service leaders that are in that boat. They're not necessarily incapable or unwilling of being more strategic. They just feel like it's a dead end for them. You know what I mean? And it's because they need to do more of what you told them to do today.

Roy - 00:37:37: Yeah, and it's funny. I love the way that you structured it, right? Because like you said, one of the reasons we have a culture of complaining is because we haven't learned to speak the other languages. And like, because we can't speak the other languages, it's hard for us to help us articulate, right? Like you're on the Titanic and you can see the ice, but the people who are steering the ship are too far away from you. Like they can't hear you. So like you see the problem, but you can't get the message there quick enough or you can't articulate it in a way where they can take action. And then you watch the ship crash and you're like, I knew it was going to crash. So now you're complaining and it's like that situation reinforces it. So I think I do. I love the way you tied it together when I think it's all relevant. Like once you learn to articulate and if you're frustrated, you probably really got to check your own heart. And are you frustrated because people don't listen? Or are you frustrated that they don't understand you? Because if they don't understand you, which means they can't take any action, like you said, that's emotional intelligence. Slow down a bit and then try again, right? Like if I say something, and your reaction is completely different than what I would expect, I shouldn't assume that you're a jerk. I should assume you didn't understand me.

Sarah - 00:38:46: Right.

Roy - 00:38:47: Right. I know you travel internationally a lot. You got the world tour for Future of Field Service. But like when you're in a different country and you say something to somebody and they just give you that weird look, you look around like, yeah, I don't think they speak English. Right. You're not like, you don't get rude. Right. You're just like, oh, they don't understand me.

Sarah - 00:39:02: Right.

Roy - 00:39:03: Like we don't do that in when we think we all speak the same language. Right. Like you just assume that person is ignoring us or disregarding us. And like you said, that's emotional intelligence. And like I said before, assume it's not malicious. Assume the best of intentions. And if somebody doesn't get it, just find another way to say it. Right. That helps with the relationship and it minimizes the frustration. And you'll stop complaining when people hear you and when you see action being taken and your future ideas are being incorporated into strategic planning or what we're doing for the next year. Because when you sit in a room and you pour your heart out, about what you want for your team, and then you don't see any of it on the list of plans, then what, like you said, you stop talking. Well, they didn't take my advice last year. So like, well, I'm going to keep talking. I'm like, but then you're doing your team a disservice as well. So like if I, and you know, and you know the origin of my leadership style is love. If I genuinely love my employees, I'm going to keep advocating on their behalf, whether somebody takes action or not. It's my responsibility to keep speaking until somebody gets it.

Sarah - 00:40:05: Yeah.

Roy - 00:40:06: And if I have to change my language so that I can, you know, bring that stuff to you, then I just need to, I need to take the time out, pause, get over myself a bit and then go do it. But it's definitely connected. And I like the way you connected those together.

Sarah - 00:40:19: I'm going to make one more connection. You said at the beginning when you were talking about joining TSIA that you said that you started talking about how you're passionate about evangelizing field service. And it's interesting. It's like a if you know, you know thing, right? Like only people in it understand how it makes you passionate. And it's weird. I mean, I never saw myself having a career in this space. But I mean, I can't tell you how many people I met that feel the exact same way about it. And I just was thinking as you were saying that there are people in the situation you just described where you say something, they didn't get it. You jump to they don't care. Like, yeah, forget it. Right. Some people are in that situation because of ego. But I think a lot of people in service, it's because you're passionate. But you can't let your passion prevent you from making progress. I'm speaking from experience. My passion gets in my way a lot. And so to your point, like that passion is good, but it has to be channeled appropriately. And passion can very easily become a force that ostracizes you. Because when you feel like people aren't getting it, like you will step back or you will find a way around or you will whatever, right? And that passion is good, but channel that passion. Use the opportunity to learn how to speak different language to channel that passion in a way that will resonate with other people. Because then when you start to see their brains clicking and you start to make some progress, you're going to realize that in some cases at least it wasn't that they don't care or they weren't listening. It was just that they really didn't get where you're coming from.

Roy - 00:41:57: And one thing I love about what you said and you had a little alliteration there with your peas as well. But I think the other thing is that we assume we kind of prioritize our passion as well. Service in the outcomes and the people in the fields and the customers. I wasn't passionate about bill collection and none of us would have had a job if somebody wasn't passionate about making sure we got paid. So like when you get that escalation from the collections department, that's like, why hasn't this person paid this invoice? You're like, hey, calm down. It's not that serious. So it's like I think, like you said, while we're empathetic and we all have an understanding that we all have different passions, they're not deficient. They're just different. And sometimes they do compete. But there's nothing wrong with that. Right. Because competition also drives creativity and gets us to be better at what we're doing. But I think that and in service, we're service oriented people like that's why we're in there. So when we feel like other people aren't aren't leaning in to serve or to help because that's what we're passionate about. You think that there's something wrong with them. But I don't want an engineer to be service oriented. I want an engineer to be engineering and innovation and creation oriented. Right. Like that's what I need them to do. So it's like all of us together will work effectively. But we know one person should think that they're part of the mission or kind of their part of the body is more important than the other. So it's like you might be the hands. Right. But like somebody else is the mouth. You don't want the service organization doing all the marketing.

Sarah - 00:43:42: Mm-hmm.

Roy - 00:43:43: Like, you don't. So it's like, so I think that's the balance. But I absolutely agree that there's normally a conflict of passion.

Sarah - 00:43:50: Mm-hmm.

Roy - 00:43:51: But it's like, no, like, just you're passionate about something that they're not. So instead of just keep pouring out your opinion, like, kind of figure out what they're passionate about.

Sarah - 00:44:00: Right.

Roy - 00:44:00: And that'll also help you understand. Like, we talked about that Rosetta Stone. It helps you understand their language. And you have children, right? You love to travel. Like, you can, there are even personal things that you can find to connect people to that completely change the way that they're communicating.

Sarah - 00:44:14: Right.

Roy - 00:44:15: Right? And then, like, you can tap into some of those passions as well. But no, I think that was a great point.

Sarah - 00:44:19: Yeah, I was just thinking, like, how big of a part of empathy curiosity is. Like, just take a pause before you react and just think about being curious about where another person is coming from or what do they care about or, you know what I mean? Like. Yeah. It's a very important part of being able to build that skill. Well, we said we were going to do a short episode and we failed, but I think ultimately we succeeded. So thank you for coming back yet again to the pod and sharing your insights and your wisdom. Is there anything you have going on that you want to tell people about?

Roy - 00:44:58: Yeah, I mean, the one thing, like you said, you mentioned the book, and I think the last one was on a podcast in February. So I have heard a lot when it comes to leadership development. A lot of companies aren't, like they talk about it. There might be a speaker at a kickoff and then there's nothing really more. So I've actually been working with an organization to build like a learning module for leadership development with an organization called Tinker Time Labs. That's going to be based off of my book. So one thing people will start seeing me promote this year is an actual like learning module that you can pull into your LMS system. That'll walk people through like almost a year long program on leadership development that talks about empathy, that talks about authenticity and all the things that you and I shared. I know you wrote an article about the book as well. So because I'm trying to focus on, like you said, like broader impact and evangelism. I think the biggest way for me to help leaders is to try to help. Drive like a more effective leadership culture where people can participate, go through. There's like questions and scenarios and things that you can go through. And we pulled in like information and leadership tips from different sources as well. So that'll be largely outside of my primary role. What I'll be doing this year is kind of helping Tinker Time Lab push that out there. And then they'll be doing some facilitation and stuff with the book as well. So it's like, I got to write the book and then somebody else gets to go, gets to promote it and do it. But yeah, that'll be a learning module that companies can actually buy. And we'll just sell it based on company size. It won't be a subscription, like download it and then use it for the benefit. Because for me, and you know, I have a passion about people being effective leaders. So I don't even want to make like ongoing costs or limitations. So people will be able to download it. It'll be in your LMS and then you can use it for your leadership cohorts or your entire organization. So that's the main thing. People can follow me on LinkedIn. I share information there and on my other social media platforms. But that's it. Just follow me on LinkedIn. I normally share what I'm doing and we'll be doing some stuff to kind of impact businesses at a higher level in 2025. That sounds so weird. It's already 2025.

Sarah - 00:46:54: I know. You did miss one important plug, which is if you truly can't get enough of Roy and I, Roy has asked me here to be a guest on a state of service webinar. So TSIA's state of service webinar, looking at what happened in 2024, what's coming up in 2025, and that is taking place on January 22nd.

Roy - 00:47:21: Yeah, January 22nd at 2 PM.

Sarah - 00:47:23: Eastern. Yes.

Roy - 00:47:25: They can register on TSIA on the portal. And then even if they miss it, the webinars are normally available on our portal afterwards. If they can't watch it live, they just have to register for a portal account on TSIA. But you can register for the portal for free. And you can see other articles and stuff as well. So we've got survey insights on supply chain and logistics. There's going to be some insights coming out. We just finished the talent management survey in December. So that'll be getting released right before the webinar as well. But yeah, so they can set up a free account on the portal and then they'll see the webinars available. That webinar and for field service and there's other ones for customer success, education services, managed services, professional services and support services as well.

Sarah - 00:48:05: Very cool. All right. So check it out and join us on the 22nd. Roy Dockery, thank you so much for coming back. I appreciate you. You can find more of Roy and I's podcasts and all sorts of other things by visiting us at futureoffieldservice.com. The podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. And as always, thank you for listening.

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My 2025 Service (Non)Predictions

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My 2025 Service (Non)Predictions

Episode 298

While host Sarah Nicastro doesn’t believe anyone can truly predict the future, in this episode of the Unscripted Podcast, she shares what she expects 2025 will bring based on interactions with the Future of Field Service community and featuring insights from the Stand Out Service Trends report.

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Episode Transcript:

[00:00:00] Sarah: The reason that there are not any excuses not to is that the options for offering flexibility are enabled by today's technologies and just a bit of creativity, a bit of getting willing to move beyond the way that it's always worked and to reimagine a bit what service delivery could look like in a world where you are offering your employees some of that flexibility. So if we consider how the incorporation of more self service change what's possible, we start to see how coming up with different scenarios that can offer more flexibility to our workforce is feasible.

Welcome to the Unscripted podcast. I'm your host, Sara Nicastro. The day has come for my 2025 service predictions, or as I'm going to refer to them today, my non predictions. The reason I say that is every January, all different types of content creators, analysts, journalists, etcetera are asked to share or decide to share predictions for the coming year. I've always found this challenging because the reality is none of us can predict the future. No one knows what is around the corner, and so it's really hard to feel a sense of confidence or conviction in stating with certainty what is to come in the year ahead. That being said, it is something that I'm asked often. And while I don't necessarily feel any of us can predict the future, There are some different themes or trends that, in my opinion, we can expect to see in 2025 based on the conversations that I have on this podcast on a weekly basis, based on the interactions I have the opportunity to have with people within the future of field service community, the interactions that I have with different IFS customers who are on their journey to service transformation and service optimization. And, of course, last year, we had the 1st ever standout fifty leadership award and did a standout service trends report with those leaders in which we gathered some insights that I'll also reference today as I go through my non predictions.

So I have a few to share, and the first that I want to start with here is organizations will begin to offer the frontline workforce greater flexibility. Here's why I think this will happen. It has to. We know that flexibility and better work-life balance is incredibly important to today's talent, And this is an area where for a long time and for a lot of different reasons, service organizations have sort of dismissed it as simply not possible, and that has changed. So in the standout service trends report, 29% of respondents report that they already are allowing flexible schedules, remote work options, or other work-life balance initiatives as part of an employee engagement focus. Now if you didn't read the standout service trends report or haven't heard me talk through some of the findings on the podcast before, I do want to mention that the standout fifty was fifty leaders. They were nominated by peers and colleagues and folks within the industry based on the impact that they're making, but there's no way that we can say that necessarily a sample size of 50 is representative of the whole. Right? So in my mind, if these folks were folks that were nominated for their impact, we could deduce from that that they, as leaders, and possibly the organizations that they're a part of, are on the better side or further alongside of thinking and best practices when it comes to service. That may or may not be true, but my point here is saying that that's 29% of those 50 leaders, not of all of service by any means. But 29% of the standout service leaders who participated in that report are already offering some sort of flexibility, and I think that is tremendous. There really though is no excuse for others not to at this point. And that's why I think in 2025, we're going to see more and more of this. The reason that there are not any excuses not to is that the options for offering excuses not to is that the options for offering flexibility are enabled by today's technologies and just a bit of creativity, a bit of getting willing to move beyond the way that it's always worked and to reimagine a bit what service delivery could look like in a world where you are offering your employees some of that flexibility. So if we consider how the incorporation of more self-service and remote service change what's possible, we start to see how coming up with different scenarios that can offer more flexibility to our workforce is feasible. In the standout service trends report, 15% of respondents said that they have extensive self-service options in place and state that customers are responding well to those, and 52% currently have some self-service capabilities in place and are focused on expanding those. 33% of respondents have transitioned a significant portion of service delivery to be remote, and another 30% are in the midst of transitioning a portion of service delivery to be remote. So these and other changes give companies options for flexibility that would have been nearly impossible to achieve not too very long ago.

I do believe companies that seize this opportunity are on the cutting edge of looking at things differently and leveraging today's tools to reimagine what's possible for the frontline workforce will have a significant advantage in the talent war. Now this should go without saying, but organizations should be offering their workforce a lot more than just flexibility. That's certainly not the only thing that is important to talent. It isn't the only foundational pillar of employee engagement. This is simply an element that is desired by today's workforce that has long been dismissed as impossible in the service industry that is now entirely feasible. So that's why I think in 2025, we're going to see a lot more offering of flexibility, and it will be really interesting to see some of the different shapes that takes. That could be days that they work from home, that could be rotating schedules, it could be allowing them the opportunity to pick their start and end times for the day, etcetera. There's a number of different shapes that this can take and that's where getting creative and understanding what's important to your workforce, understanding the constrictions of how you deliver service to your customers today and what could change in that regard to make new things possible, all of those things come into play, but they deduce down to the ability to offer more flexibility to the workforce.

So that's number 1. Number 2, customer expectations will exploit service organization complacency. So it is incredibly challenging to keep pace with what customers want, but it is the name of the game. For a long time in this space, we've been talking about consumerization and the influence of how the experiences that we can receive in our personal lives bleed over to what we expect from companies that we do business with in all areas of our lives. And so I believe that many service organizations are soon going to face the consequence of sitting pretty or maintaining the status quo when they could have or should have been innovating.

One of the data points from the standout service trends report that drove this home for me is that respondents shared that when asked what's most important to customers, wanting peace of mind or guaranteed uptime slash performance was 2nd on the list. So it's the 2nd most important thing to the respondents' customer base. Yet only 26% of respondents are offering outcomes based services, and, perhaps more importantly, 26% still offer only reactive or transactional break-fix service. So that shows this divide between what's important to customers and where these organizations are in terms of evolving their service offerings to provide that peace of mind that we know is important. So what was once effective at setting service apart has, in many instances, become table stakes. We've talked a lot in the past about soft skills, prompt response, high degree of first-time fix. There are a number of companies who are still struggling to shore up those strengths, and those companies are falling behind the organizations who have shifted to modernizing their service value proposition along with modernizing service delivery itself. So I think that this is the way the pace at which customer expectations are evolving is really going to magnify the gap that exists between service organizations who have taken the initiative to be innovative, to keep on top of trends, to keep pace with change, to understand what's important to their customers, and to continue to evolve their operations and their offerings accordingly and those who have sort of just stayed complacent and maintained the status quo. This evolution in progress or foreshadowing of a reckoning, if you will, is also suggested by the wide range of KPIs that are used to measure service success today. When we asked respondents in the standout service trends report how they measure performance of their service teams. Some mentioned things like CSAT and NPS, but there were quite a few who still solely rely on metrics like productivity, efficiency, and utilization, which, don't get me wrong, are quite important, but when used in a vacuum, can be at odds with evolving an operation beyond that transactional service mentality. So the lesson here is that customer-centered innovation is essential, whether that means the development of new service offerings, an evolution of service delivery, incorporation of more sophisticated technology to allow things like greater personalization or more extensive information to your customers, or more than likely a combination of all of these things. And measuring the performance of your workforce based on the success factors of today's business, not yesteryear's, is a must. So I think this reckoning is something that we'll see quite a bit of in 2025.

Number 3, organizations will be forced to reconcile technology debt and invest in more modern service management. So when we think about what is possible in terms of customer-centric innovation or we think about what's possible in terms of really changing the employee value proposition, both things should contribute to companies' overall performance in a positive way. When we think about what's possible, so many of the areas of opportunity rely on technological innovation. And so the importance of a strong, scalable, sophisticated digital foundation in today's service landscape can't be overstated. However, in the standout service trends report, 20% of respondents said that their core service management platform is not ideal and are currently evaluating or implementing an alternative, and 59% more reported that their service management platform is capable, but not ideal for the future state of their operations. Only 15% reported that they have a fully functioning and future-ready service management system in place, and 50% stated that less than 10% of field service tasks are automated. This shows not only the opportunity, but the directive to modernize core systems in order to remain relevant, both to your customers and to your employees. The good news is, supporting why I think we'll see a lot of this investment in new core systems and replacement of legacy systems in 2025, is that respondents also indicated that for 2025, nearly half of respondents are set to bolster their technology investments. 35% expect a moderate increase in their technology budget, and 12% expect a significant increase. 47% remain expect their technology budget to remain flat, and 6% expect a nominal decrease. So the stage is set here based on the absolute imperative nature of having that capable, scalable solution in place that not only meets the really strong demand of today's business, but sets you up for success in the future.

It's so crucial to businesses to be successful, and it's the time has come to get rid of what's not working, to get rid of what can't meet the needs of where you need to go, and put in place the solutions that can. So building off of that, certainly, over the last few years, everyone's predictions have included AI in some way, shape, or form. And my next non prediction, if you will, is that I believe we will witness some major service-centered AI successes, but also the 1st major missteps. So the AI buzz that has had the industry in a stronghold over the last couple of years is warranted. It is. I've said before, I actually shared in my predictions last year that the buzz started as buzz and companies started taking action, and the intelligence the AI can bring to an organization is the next significant milestone in digital transformation or in the digital journey. There are so many opportunities, sometimes so many that it can be quite overwhelming, but it's something that we have to be very pragmatic about. So all of the buzz is something that the service trends report showed that the standout leaders also believe in.

62% of respondents are currently using AI in their operations, and they shared some examples such as chatbots, triage and tech support, service order summaries, document and data search, guided troubleshooting, optimized scheduling, generating service tickets from emails, and much more. Further, 47% state that AI is their next area of focus in terms of technology investment, and 76% believe advanced AI will be critical for remaining competitive in field service. That being said, the current and future use of AI is not without concern. The top 3 concerns that respondents shared are accuracy and bias with 33%, the need to master the basics first, 23%, and not having the data at the ready to support the use of AI, 19%. So personally, I think it's positive that leaders were very open and upfront about the concerns that they have because we will see more missteps by those who are just racing and rushing into expanding their AI use than we will those who do have some concerns and are doing their due diligence and making sure that they're being pragmatic in their approach. So here's what I think will happen in 2025. I anticipate that we'll see the buzz that has moved to action morph into some really compelling success stories. There are so many ways that AI in different forms can be incredibly useful to service organizations, and again, in a way that can really bring value to not only the business, but the customer experience and the employee experience.

If you want to take a deeper dive into some of the the different ways that AI will unfold in service in 2025, you should check out the predictions blog from my colleague, Mark Brewer, who is the vice president for service industry at IFS. You can find that at blog.ifs.com. But he explores in detail some of the cool ways that he believes AI will evolve in service this year. And, personally, I'm very excited to start to see at conferences and on the podcast, in discussions, some of these real-world success stories. And not just real-world success stories on a small scale, but starting to see real-world success stories from companies that are doing quite sophisticated things and driving real business value by doing so. But while I'm excited to see how companies put AI to work for their businesses, for their customers, for their employees, I also fully expect that we will inevitably really see some major missteps, ones that could be quite significant. If I were to get out my crystal ball, I would anticipate everything from failing to see AI as a tool that can augment the work of talented people and instead trying to replace them with technology to the detriment of the customer experience, or rushing into AI use that isn't rooted in real business case or supported by capable technology. There are some ways here that organizations can go really, really wrong if they aren't keeping in mind the ethical implications, the customer experience implications, and being really smart about how they take this incredibly valuable tool and put it to the best use for their organization. So I'm not concerned, to be clear, about the fail fast type of mistakes that are part of any innovative project, but more so the big kahuna, what were you thinking type missteps that come from believing that there's some sort of loophole away from the realities and limitations of the hard work that is involved in getting AI right. So be smart about tying your investment and evolution and the technology to real business cases, and be smart about the partners that you choose to work with and the way you communicate those changes to your workforce and to your customers.

And my final non prediction is more so a call to action, which is service leaders must get better at storytelling. At the Service Council Symposium last fall and in their own 2025 predictions, John Carroll of the Service Council spoke about the rising existential threat to service leaders. Essentially, the risk that exists for service not to have a spot in strategic decision-making at the company to have a for organizations to miss the full view of what service and the wealth of insights a service function has mean to the business and instead be dismissed or deprioritized. So this existential threat would be massively unfortunate to see unfold, and my hope is we don't see that happen at all. As we know, service is far more than a means to meeting customer needs. It's really a treasure trove of so, so much more. But to avoid this potential reality, service leaders have to become better storytellers. Many service leaders grew up from being technicians themselves, and not all have become comfortable or adept at articulating and influencing, but that is exactly what is needed. Service leaders need to use storytelling to translate the needs of and opportunities within the customer base to terminology that screams business value and shifts the perception of them and their teams from that of a necessary evil to a powerhouse of competitive differentiation and potential innovation. Deep diving into being sure you understand all the ways in which service is interconnected with your company's financial objectives, strategic vision, sustainability initiatives, and technological road map is a great start. But using storytelling to explain this interconnectedness in a language that will resonate with your company's C-level executives is a must. So let's work on that in 2025.

And those, my friends, are my 2025 nonpredictions. I would love to hear your thoughts on anything that I've shared here. I would also love to hear your thoughts on what you think 2025 will bring. So if you have any insight for me, please feel free to reach out through email or on LinkedIn. And next week, I look forward to our 3 hundredth episode. That's crazy and hard to believe. Until then, you can find more by visiting us at futureoffieldservice.com. The unscripted podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can find more at IFS.com.

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Top 10 of 2024 - Part Two

January 1, 2025 | 2 Mins Read

Top 10 of 2024 - Part Two

Episode 297

In the second half of this episode of the Unscripted Podcast, host Sarah Nicastro reflects on the top Unscripted podcast episodes of 2024, celebrating the inspiring guests, diverse topics, and invaluable insights shared throughout the year. Sarah delves into conversations on neurodiversity, authenticity in leadership, mental health awareness, and more with Tristan Lavender, Roy Dockery, Tim Spencer, Marco Hugo Guiterrez, and Rob Stephenson.

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Also, subscribe to our newsletter right here.

Episode Highlights:

[00:55] - Episode 292: Are You Overlooking the Importance and Impact of Neurodiversity at Work?: In this episode, Tristan Lavender dives into why neurodivergent individuals are vital to innovation and how companies can create environments where they thrive.
[03:36] - Episode 252: The Art of Leading: This episode is packed with insights on authentic leadership from Roy Dockery. Roy's perspective on authenticity stood out as he believes it's more than being genuine; it's about embracing your unique qualities, sharing your passions and vulnerabilities, and creating a ripple effect of respect and empowerment in your team.
[05:07] - Episode 282: Reflecting on a 35+ Year Career in Field Service: What’s Changed, What Hasn’t, and Where Are We Headed Next?: Drawing from his experience, Tim Spencer shares a powerful guiding principle: always look for the next problem to solve, not for innovation's sake, but to truly make things better.
[07:07] - Episode 265: Smashing Stigma Around Mental Health & Prioritizing Well-Being at Work: Inspired by his own journey, Rob Stephenson shared powerful insights on fostering psychological safety, reducing stigma, and truly listening to employees to understand their needs.

[09:37] - Episode 247: Tetra Pak’s Proven Ways of Supporting Field Force: Marco Hugo Guiterrez shared proven strategies for supporting field force well-being, highlighting the importance of flexibility in work modalities, such as offering remote support roles or back-office rotations to accommodate personal needs.

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Top 10 of 2024 - Part One

December 18, 2024 | 17 Mins Read

Top 10 of 2024 - Part One

Episode 296

In this episode of the Unscripted Podcast, host Sarah Nicastro reflects on the top Unscripted podcast episodes of 2024, celebrating the inspiring guests, diverse topics, and invaluable insights shared throughout the year. From the challenges of servitization and the power of diversity in field service to leveraging AR and AI for modernization, Sarah highlights key lessons and favorite quotes from thought leaders like Dr. Kawal Kapoor, Daniel Trabel, Stuart Thompson, Dot Mynahan, and Teresa Carneiro.

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Episode Highlights:

Sarah: I just wanna start by saying a huge thank you to each and every one of the guests that we have had join us for an episode of the podcast in 2024. We've had a wide range of topics, different parts of the world represented, a lot of different perspectives, and we're really proud of that. So we will work hard to continue to provide that, but it isn't possible without the willingness of our guests to come and share not only their time, but their opinions and their journeys and their lessons learned and so forth. So big thank you to everyone that has joined for an episode this year, not only the 10 that I'm going to go through. We are quickly coming up on our 100th episode of this podcast, which blows my mind.

Welcome to the Unscripted podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. We have somehow found ourselves yet again at the end of another year and it is time for the top 10 podcasts of 2024. I'm gonna do this in 2 parts because I wanna talk a little bit about each of these episodes and share some other things as we go along. So part 1 is what you're hearing today. Part 2 will run on January 1st. So I just want to start by saying a huge thank you to each and every one of the guests that we have had join us for an episode of the podcast in 2024. We've had a wide range of topics, different parts of the world represented, a lot of different perspectives, and we're really proud of that. So we will work hard to continue to provide that, but it isn't possible without the willingness of our guests to come and share not only their time, but their opinions and their journeys and their lessons learned and so forth. So big thank you to everyone that has joined for an episode this year, not only the 10 that I'm going to go through. We are quickly coming up on our 3 100th episode of this podcast, which blows my mind, but is very exciting, and have some fun plans for that. That'll happen in January. Stay tuned for that. And thank you for being here and taking part in this journey.

As you can imagine, coming up on 300 episodes in a lot of aspects, the podcast is a well-oiled machine at this point. I always appreciate when I do interviews, guests often say, this was really easy. This was really enjoyable. This was a lot of fun. So I work hard to minimize the ask of their time and to make it an enjoyable process. But that being said, even though we've been doing this for a while, we are always open to feedback from our community. So if you have feedback on what we could be doing better, what you would like to see, please reach out anytime. And along that line, if you have a story or views, opinions that you would like to share, please reach out as well, and we can see if we can make that happen.

So with that said, I'm gonna go ahead and dive into the first half of our top ten of 2024. I also wanna point out that I randomized the order of these. So we're not necessarily doing a countdown. These are just the top 10, not in any particular order. But the first one I'm going to speak about is episode 266, which is innovating advanced services and delivering on servitization. This episode was with doctor Kawall Kapoor, who is the research manager at the Advanced Services Group out of Aston Business School. Also, the coauthor of a book released this year and a a playbook that came alongside with it titled Servatization Strategy, Delivering Customer Centric Outcomes Through Business Model Innovation. So, Kawal, being part of the Advanced Services Group, some of you who are longtime listeners are probably familiar with that organization. We've had a number of their team on the podcast to talk about different themes and trends related to servertization, professor Tim Baines and plenty of others. And I really appreciate the work that they do around advanced services because Powell's piece of that is managing the research that they do. But they also have a very hands on component of what they do with businesses who are incubating and working through their advanced services ideas and journeys. So they have a good balance of understanding the trends via research, but also understanding the real-world implications of trying to advance services in today's landscape. I'm gonna share for each of these episodes my favorite quote, why that was my favorite quote, and then if there's any other things that come to mind. So my favorite quote from this episode, Kawall says, "what tends to happen is you'll see a disconnect between how a firm is describing its servitized offerings and how it would truly resonate with a customer. The key is customers are more interested in why a service matters, not just how it works. So if you hear firms saying, we offer condition monitoring or we offer digital services, it's technical to a customer. That's not to say they don't understand. They obviously do understand their function, their business, but it's not really clear what it is from that conditioning monitoring or from those digital service that will provide them benefit. And we've always said that that servitization is about putting customers first. So if you think of it this way, you wouldn't buy a product unless it made your life easier." So Kawall point here is that one of the barriers to success when we think about advanced services, outcomes-based services, servitization is companies struggling to articulate the value proposition in a way that resonates with the customers. So for companies to really recognize the value of the full potential of advanced services, we have to not only be able to take that customer-centric view, but to adopt a more customer-centric language. And this is something that talking it through, it sounds very simple, but in reality, it's a sticking point that a lot of companies struggle with. So this was a good conversation about that and other things. You can check out that episode. Again, it is episode 266. And, uh, if you wanna check out the work that Kawall and the rest of the Advanced Services Group team do on Advanced Services, their website is advanced services group dotco.uk.

Alright. Next episode on today's list is episode 257. The title of that is Equity is Everyone's Responsibility. This episode is with Daniel Trebel, who is the director of field service EMEA at Thermo Fisher Scientific. So in this episode, Daniel shares the success that Thermo has had in bringing specifically more women into field service roles and why he feels that organizations ignoring the need to improve diversity overall of field teams are set up to fail. So my favorite quote from Daniel from this episode is, I think it's important to really take a step back from the problem and start asking how the solution should look and how to get to that point. It's important that you really map the situation and try things out. Maybe you're disruptive and you take a risk, but when you don't change it, you will fail from the very beginning. Companies who don't do this will fail because they can't unleash the power of people and they can't unleash the power of diversity, which is necessary to be successful. We are dealing in a situation where when we talk about STEM, there's only a handful of people who can cover open positions and everyone is keen to get someone from somewhere. But if there is no someone, then there is no somewhere. We need to open up the talent pool. And if you don't do that and you're not thinking of changing your plans and your strategy in the long run, I think those companies will fail. That's my clear statement here. So Daniel has a very good point, which is, historically, many field service organizations have hired based on, uh, previous experience. And there's a couple of layers to what we discuss in this episode. The first is that experience is becoming extinct, ultimately. We can't keep relying on previous experience to find the talent that we need in our businesses. That challenge is actually what prompted Thermo to do what they did that Daniel shares in this episode. However, they also realized that not only is there an opportunity to expand the talent pool if you start opening up yourself to more diverse candidates, but there's also value itself in having diverse teams, diversity of thought. So in this episode, Daniel talks about not just the premise of why this is important. It's a premise that I think just about every service organization today understands. Everyone will talk about the challenges to find higher and routine good talent. What is less common is a example with as much detail as Daniel shares of exactly how a company has overcome this challenge. So he talks through many specifics of how Thermo really got more creative than ever before in reflecting on job descriptions, changing hiring criteria, creating new roles, managing change around doing all of this, and also ensuring that diversity was represented at all levels of the business, not just these entry-level field service roles. So there's a lot of great specifics in this episode if you find yourself within an organization that recognizes this problem, but isn't necessarily getting creative about finding solutions. So again, that one is episode 257.

Next on the list is episode 264. This one is ABB's use of augmented reality and artificial intelligence to modernize field service and transform the customer experience. This is with Stuart Thompson, who is the president of the electrification service division at ABB. So what we're really looking at here is how does an organization with nearly 3,000 field engineers across 50 countries respond to customers that are demanding more in an industry with less and less workforce capability to go and serve. So when we think about the premise of the last podcast, Daniel's podcast, we're talking about the need to evolve our talent strategies. In this episode with Stuart from ABB, we're talking about the role technology also plays in minimizing that need and helping the workforce that you do have work smarter. So my favorite quote from Stewart says, if you think about your field engineering work, it's hard work. There's a lot of travel. There's a lot of heavy equipment that you're lifting out in the field. Some of the best field engineers we have are nearing retirement, and so travel becomes more difficult. But the knowledge is there, and for them to be able to impart and share that knowledge with 20 people in a day instead of 1 when they're traveling to a site is far more attractive. As the tools have become more intuitive, you can talk instead of type. If I look at a 64 year old field engineer, being able to just have a conversation and talk like we do, and the computer or device in the background takes care of everything else, it becomes a lot more natural for them. From a customer's viewpoint as well, we can offer different levels of service support. I can have a level 4 technician expert from the factory online with you in minutes, or you can wait a week, I can have them at your site so that customers are taking on that decision. Depending on their sense of urgency, yes, they would love to have a person at the site, but if they're losing $1,000,000 an hour with oil barrels not rolling off the production line, they're very happy to have someone online guiding them as well. Stewart's really talking about 2 different aspects of these types of tools here. One is the way that these tools can help change how your teams work in really significant ways. And he speaks specifically in this example of how that can help organizations take some of their very experienced, very knowledgeable talent that may not want to be out in the field on a day-to-day basis any longer and make really good use of that talent in a way that is comfortable for them. He also, on the other hand, is talking about how to create acceptance from a customer perspective in making changes to your service delivery model. So he talks about really putting the decision in their hands in the sense of stating what the options are and allowing them to choose, and doing so in a way that allows them to determine what the level of urgency is and, therefore, what the appropriate service is. Within this quote, he's talking about these 2 different things. Across this entire episode, he's sharing a very pragmatic approach to adopting modern technologies that I see a lot of companies struggling with. There, we talk through not only what's worked, but some of the challenges that ABB has overcome in bringing these technologies more prominently to its workforce and to its customer base. So the other point that Stuart makes that I think is really important is he talks about how with the introduction of AI supporting field engineers to help them with reporting and admin work, ABB has saved between 2 to 3 hours a week of reporting and admin time. So I believe that's yeah. It's 2 to 3 hours a week per technician, which he says in the episode equates to $30,000,000 a year. But he also points out that they took the opportunity to look at this from the perspective of work, life balance as well as company benefit and to take a balanced approach of monetizing those savings, but also giving some of that time back to the engineer to have an extra hour off, to have an hour for training, etcetera. And I think that mindset is so important in this overall conversation. This episode, in my opinion, is a must listen for anyone who is working through how to incorporate, better incorporate, further incorporate AR, AI, or any other sophisticated tools and automation processes because Stewart shares a lot of tactics for how they've overcome some of the challenges to get to the point they have that I think could be really helpful for others to hear. Again, that one is episode 264.

Next up, episode 256, a look back at 32 years as a woman in service. This episode is with Dot Minahan. When we recorded this, she had recently retired from Otis Elevator after more than 32 years and is now the senior director of safety and workforce development for the National Elevator Industry Incorporated. So Dot talks about how more than 33 years ago, she answered a newspaper ad to be a temporary service clerk at Otis Elevator and ultimately worked her way to being the executive director of field operations for the Americas. So she talks through some of what that journey looked like for her and a lot of the lessons she learned along the way. I think there's so much power in storytelling and and hearing about people's experiences, and there's different aspects to this. There's spending more than 32 years with 1 company and and kind of working through the ranks. And Dot also talks in this episode about some of the value of thinking of career progression as not only a ladder, but a lattice. So she talks about how sometimes making more of a lateral move can bring a lot of value. Obviously, being a woman in a very male-dominated space from 33 years ago to today is really interesting. And quite frankly, she accomplished a lot of really cool things in her time with the company. My favorite quote from Dot in this episode was when I asked her what accomplishment she was proudest of in her time with Otis. And she says, the biggest achievement I have was starting forward, which was the employee resource group for women in field operations. We started that in North America with a group of 12 women. It expanded to over 500 women internationally and really has made a difference in the careers and career ladders, not only for women in field operations and the offices, but even in the field. Because we talked a lot about career ladders and there are career ladders even within the field organization, I'm proud to see a lot of women getting the opportunities that they deserve. It's been an incredible organizational structure to have that employee resource group that Otis supported as well as they did. That's probably my number one achievement. I like this because it underpins a couple of important points. One is the impact that 1 person with a strong passion for something can ignite. So Dot had this idea to start forward, and it started with 12 people in North America and has grown to over 500 people globally. And as she points out, it's impacted the careers of many of those hundreds of women, and that's amazing. It also underpins the power of women supporting women. And don't get me wrong, men need to support women as well as allies, but when you take the time, as Dot did, within her own career to pour back into some of the younger talent around you, to do mentoring, to create something like she did with Forward, it is a really powerful thing. Also underpins, as I mentioned, the importance of storytelling and also community and the tangible effect that groups like this have within and beyond their companies. Really great accomplishment and really cool conversation with Dot to hear about some of her experiences over her career at Otis. Dot also, later in the year, took part as a judge in our standout 50 leadership awards and is featured discussing that a bit in episode 293, which is also worth a listen. Again, Dott's episode on her journey is episode 256.

Last, but certainly not least for today, is episode 274, inside the mind of the new talent you're seeking. This is with Teresa Carneiro, who is a field service engineer at Stem Cell Technologies. Teresa is based in Germany, and I had the great fortune to meet her this June, I believe it was, at our Future of Field Service live event in Cologne. So coincidentally, Daniel Trebel from Thermo Fisher, who we talked about earlier in our conversation, was speaking at this event about some of the work that Thermo has done to attract more women into its field service operations. And so, coincidentally, Teresa was in the audience, which was just wonderful because she was able to bring, uh, first hand perspective to the topic, and it was interesting to see the reaction to her. So once she spoke up and said who she was and what her role was, every break we had, the service leaders in the room were trying to pick her brain, I think probably also giving her job offers and all sorts of things. So it was really serendipitous that she joined us, and I asked her to come on the podcast and share some of her insights about what drew her to field service, what does she enjoy about the field service engineer role, how does she feel about being a woman in field service, how does she envision her career evolving, all sorts of different things like that. And so in sharing some of her journey, she really gives invaluable insight for the service organizations that are looking to improve and evolve their hiring practices. So there's actually 2 quotes from Teresa that I want to share. I could not pick between the 2, so I'm gonna read them both. The first is, I think it's very curious because ever since I joined the industry, I have heard all sorts of companies saying how hard it is to get young talent on their teams. I must say that having very recently searched for a job, I felt exactly the opposite. I felt that I was always behind because I didn't have any previous experience in the industry. And even when you come across some entry-level jobs, they often ask for years of experience. It can be a bit discouraging to find that most job ads require some years of experience, and especially for this type of role because I feel that this type of job, you need a lot of training regardless of your previous experience because of how specific it is. I truly believe that recently graduated students can bring a lot to the table. We are used to learning so many different things in such a short time frame. So she's really giving that firsthand perspective of, at least in the region that she was job seeking, which is in Germany, that most organizations are still requiring experience even for entry level positions, which, again, is really going to limit the talent pool that you can address. The other quote I wanted to share says, I would just like to quickly point out that these questions and the question was around, how does she see her career evolving and changing over time, particularly with the amount of travel and and things of that nature. So she says, I would just like to quickly point out that these questions about balancing this type of job with parenthood are often framed as exclusively a woman's problem, such as how do you see yourself managing this lifestyle when you become a mom. And, of course, you did not frame it that way nor did you assume that I do want to have children, which is also not an assumption that should be made for every woman. But this balance is not just a woman's problem. This might be a concern for anyone who wants to start a family and knows how much time we spend away from home in this type of job. So companies should tackle this problem and get creative having everyone in mind and not just women. I really respect this point, and I think it's refreshing to hear her perspective. And she also shared with me a bit her partner's perspective on this, and to think about how we're framing things, what some of our unconscious bias may be, what the value of flexibility and getting creative about these roles can mean for everyone. And for families, regardless of which parent is benefiting from looking at things differently. So I think that some of the points Teresa makes in this episode really make me wonder how many organizations are still missing the boat on great talent because they're not willing to do things differently. They are acknowledging the problem, but they're not changing. They're not getting creative about the solutions. And I think that seeing the potential in someone like Teresa and knowing that so many organizations are missing out on that because they're trying to just do what they've always done even though it's not working any longer, it really makes you think. And I think her perspective on what that journey was like, what young talent wants, what their viewpoints are on some of the things that, uh, us who are generations older are making assumptions on, etcetera, is just so, so helpful to listen to and understand. So I would say for anyone listening who really wants a peek inside the mind of an intelligent, young, driven field technician that, in my opinion, any organization would want to hire, definitely go back and listen to what Teresa had to say. And again, that is episode 274.

So those are the first 5 of the top 10 podcasts of 2024. As I mentioned, we will be sharing, uh, part 2 on January 1st, so please come back and have a listen to that. In the meantime, you can find more content by visiting the home of unscripted at future of field service .com. As always, the podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. Thank you for listening.

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The Service Leadership Trifecta

December 11, 2024 | 3 Mins Read

The Service Leadership Trifecta

Episode 295

In this episode of the Unscripted podcast, host Sarah Nicastro welcomes Ryan Snellings, Founder and Coach at The Jobless Leader, who formerly held a variety of service and operations leadership roles at companies like Fresenius Kabi, Luminex Corporation, and Agena, to discuss three areas of focus for leaders who want to excel in service today.

Ryan brings over 25 years of experience in service and operations leadership within the medical device industry. Having held significant roles at companies such as Fresenius Kabi, Luminex Corporation, and Agena, he has cultivated a deep understanding of the intricacies of service leadership. Ryan's recent transition to coaching reflects his commitment to empowering others to lead without formal titles, emphasizing the importance of self-awareness, personal development, and empathy in leadership.

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Episode Highlights:

[03:51] - Growth, Ownership, and Empathy: Self-awareness, career ownership, and empathy form the trifecta of effective leadership. Start with daily self-reflection, just 10 minutes at the end of each day, to evaluate your conversations, decisions, and productivity. Manage your career proactively, as no one else will advocate for your growth like you can. Lastly, lead with empathy. Consistent one-on-ones and open feedback build trust and understanding, reminding us that despite all the goals and technology, success is ultimately about people.
[16:00] - Turning Wins Into Opportunities: Feeling uncomfortable about showcasing your achievements is natural, but managing up is crucial for career growth. Regularly share wins during one-on-ones, connecting them to team and organizational success. This not only builds trust but also ensures your efforts don't get overlooked. Remember, celebrating wins as they happen creates a culture of recognition and momentum.
[24:41] - Lead Smarter: To lead effectively, focus on three key practices: First, ensure alignment by clearly communicating your priorities and the team's goals across all levels, so everyone knows their role in achieving them. Second, prioritize genuine and timely recognition. Acknowledge individual contributions when they happen, and go beyond generic gestures by creating meaningful moments, like celebrating top performers in ways that involve their families. Finally, time-block everything, from strategic tasks to personal self-reflection, to make sure what matters most gets done and becomes a habit.
[39:59] - Building Trust Through Authentic Leadership: Corporate leaders face an uphill battle in building trust when actions contradict words, like proclaiming "we're a family" while executing mass layoffs or demanding more from employees without fair compensation. Authenticity and transparency are the real game-changers. Employees can handle tough decisions if they're communicated honestly and without corporate jargon. Cut the fluff and be real. That's how you keep people on your side.

Quotes:

“Self-reflection was a big part of me and I wish I would have learned it at the very beginning of my career.”
“You really have to lean on the side of empathy because when you have that many people, someone's gonna have something going on in their personal life or professional life, and you need to be able to identify those things.”
“To me, there's just nothing better than to lead people and help them get where they want to go.”

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Best Practices of Stand Out Service Leaders

December 4, 2024 | 2 Mins Read

Best Practices of Stand Out Service Leaders

Episode 294

In this episode of Unscripted, Sarah Nicastro, the creator of Future of Field Service and VP of Customer Engagement at IFS, reflects on the Stand Out Service Trends Report, sharing actionable insights from some of the most innovative leaders in the service industry. Drawing on her extensive expertise and years of observing the evolution of field service, Sarah explores best practices in hiring, employee engagement, change management, and technology prioritization.

Sarah's career began unexpectedly in the world of field service after earning her bachelor’s degree in psychology and an MBA, with plans to enter the nonprofit sector. Her fascination with the innovation and complexity of field service sparked a passion that has driven her work ever since. Based in Erie, PA, Sarah balances her professional life with time spent at Lake Erie hunting for beach glass, Peloton workouts, and indulging in her love of hip-hop and ice cream.

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Episode Highlights:

[06:20] - Hiring for Success: Nearly 50% of standout leaders have updated job descriptions in the last six months, signaling a shift in how they approach talent acquisition. Thirty-three percent now prioritize hiring for skills and capacity to learn rather than requiring prior experience, while 19% have implemented apprenticeship programs to nurture new talent. These modern practices reflect a commitment to building diverse, future-ready teams that adapt to evolving industry needs.
[08:44] - Enhancing Employee Engagement: Leaders know that engaged employees drive retention and customer satisfaction. Sixty-seven percent conduct frequent one-on-one reviews and 61% have formal recognition programs to reward excellence. Continuous training programs (59%) and flexible work arrangements (29%) further boost morale. These efforts foster a culture where employees feel valued and empowered, fueling overall performance.
[14:05] - Embracing Change Management: 42% of leaders surveyed have embedded change management into their company culture, focusing on continuous improvement. They engage employees in developing solutions and see change as a competitive strength. Open communication, leadership buy-in, and a relentless focus on execution help these organizations thrive in a constantly shifting landscape.
[16:33] - Technology with Purpose: Technology adoption is a priority, with 47% planning AI investments in areas like predictive maintenance and troubleshooting by 2025. Leaders emphasize matching tech to business challenges while addressing concerns like accuracy, data security, and readiness. By balancing opportunity with caution, they ensure technology enhances, not disrupts, operations and customer experiences.

Quotes:

“We know that if we continue to look for talent based on previous experience, it just simply doesn't exist. We need to modernize the approach, which often means that the organizations hiring have more work to do to get people ready to go out into the field on their own and be comfortable and successful performing those duties.” - Sarah Nicastro
“Performance reviews, recognition programs, and professional development are key areas that drive employee engagement and retention.” - Sarah Nicastro
“The goal isn’t just introducing new technology; it’s understanding what your business challenges are and how technology can address them.” - Sarah Nicastro

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The Impact and Importance of Strong Service Leadership

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The Impact and Importance of Strong Service Leadership

Episode 293

In this episode of the Unscripted podcast, host Sarah Nicastro welcomes Dot Mynahan, who currently serves as the Senior Director of Safety and Workforce for the National Elevator Industry and formerly spent more than 30 years with Otis Elevator, and John Carroll, CEO of the Service Council. This session was recorded live at IFS Unleashed after announcing the Future of Field Service Stand Out 50 Leadership Awards, for which Dot and John served as judges. Dot, John, and Sarah discuss why recognizing strong service leaders is so important.

Dot began her journey at Otis Elevator as a temporary service clerk. Over time, she progressed through various roles, including field management trainee, maintenance supervisor, branch manager, general manager, regional field operations manager, senior regional field operations manager, and Director of Field Operations for Latin America. Dot's passion lies in coaching and guiding fellow employees, enabling them to excel at Otis. She co-founded and co-led FORWARD, an innovative global Employee Resource Group aimed at recruiting, retaining, and mentoring women within Otis field operations.

John is a seasoned CEO with vast experience in the research industry, who specializes in services, customer experience, sales, business development, and customer satisfaction. As an entrepreneurial leader in marketing and business development, John has a proven track record of driving revenue growth, expanding market share, and increasing business value. In 2009, John founded the Service Council with a vision to create a platform for sharing and refining innovative strategies among service-centric businesses.

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Episode Highlights:

Dot - 00:00:00:

The cool thing about service revenue is it helps smooth out the cyclical nature of the peaks and valleys, right? So it can really kind of provide a steady income stream through good times and bad, right? Because you still need to keep everything running. So it provides a steady income stream. And then depending on your service contracts and how you structure them, it's also aftermarket opportunity, break-fix opportunity, right? So you can boost your revenue stream that way.

Sarah - 00:00:36:

Hello, welcome to the UNSCRIPTED Podcast, where you'll find discussions on what matters most in service, leadership, and business transformation. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Let's jump in. Welcome to the UNSCRIPTED Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. We are here today at IFS Unleashed, the Future of Field Service booth. We just took the time to announce the first ever Future of Field Service Standout 50 leaders. And I am here at the Future of Field Service booth with Dot Mynahan, who currently serves as the Senior Director for Safety and Workforce for the National Elevator Industry. And formerly spent more than 30 years with Otis Elevator, as well as John Carroll, CEO of Community Platform Service Council. We just finished announcing the standout 50, and we're going to talk a bit about the importance of recognizing service leadership. Okay, so Dot and John both served along with myself and Professor Tim Baines of The Advanced Services Group as judges for the standout 50. Tim couldn't be here with us at the event, but Dot and John were able to join me in handing out trophies and acknowledging the leaders on stage. So thank you both for your participation in this initiative and for being here at the event with us. We really appreciate that. If you both want to say hello, I don't know if there's anything you want to share about yourselves that doesn't fit into just your titles. I know you're both much more than your work titles, but say hello.

Dot - 00:02:10:

Hi, everyone. I think your intro was great. I think if anything, I have a passion for workforce development that I'm really excited to pursue in this new chapter of my life where the work that I did with Otis for workforce development was very, I was very passionate about. And now I'm working for the trade industry and hopefully having a bigger impact across the nation. So it's exciting.

Sarah - 00:02:34:

Wonderful. John?

John - 00:02:36:

Hello. As my LinkedIn profile says, I'm a father first. I have four little ones at home. My daughter just got called up to varsity for soccer.

Sarah - 00:02:43:

I was going to say not so little anymore.

John - 00:02:45:

Well, yeah, 60 years old, all the way down to eight. So father first, that's really important to me. But beyond that, I'm just really passionate about finding the next story that can help another service leader. And one of my big passion projects outside of all the corporate profit opportunities that service represents and everything else is this notion that service can be a function of humanity. And doing good for the world and improving the humanity that's in the world. So that's a big passion project for me. So thank you for the invitation to be a judge and for coming here this week. Kudos, IFS. It's been a great event.

Sarah - 00:03:16:

Thanks for being here. So we talked a bit as we announced the standout 50 about why it's so important to do so. This isn't just about, Future of Field Service or the IFS brand or the service counselor or any individual. It's really about acknowledging the hard work these individuals are doing, the teams that are behind them, but also what service represents. So we did speak about that a bit on stage, and then we've had some impromptu and more formal roundtable discussions since where we've, you know, expanded on some of those points that I want to sort of come back to in this podcast discussion, starting with just getting both of your thoughts to sort of set the stage on why it's so important to recognize service leaders. So let's start there.

John - 00:04:02:

All right. So I think service has long been considered a necessary evil in many organizations, right? You go back several decades, especially in manufacturing-centric industries, it's been an afterthought. And I think we've saw this community kind of evolve its mindset from this cost center orientation to the profit center orientation, and the whole opportunity to derive profits from field service and service, more broadly speaking, has been a common theme in fred. And I think that the impact that service is having on an organization's overall health is well document that, right? You look at some of the major brands that we care and know and love, BMW on new car ships, 10 to 12% profit margin. On aftermarket parts, somewhere in the 60 to 65%. You look at companies like Kawasaki, right? They sometimes operate at a razor-thin product margin, but their health and wellness of their company is derived from the aftermarket full sales support. And so I think the criticality of service to the corporate agenda should be common and ubiquitous, but there's some cultural barriers in terms of achieving that. So I think it's great to be able to recognize some of those standout leaders that have achieved that corporate shift in culture. And for that, it's special to me to do that type of thing.

Dot - 00:05:16:

Yeah. I think the cool thing about service revenue is it helps smooth out the cyclical nature of the peaks and valleys, right? So it can really kind of provide a steady income stream through good times and bad, right? Because you still need to keep everything running, so it provides a study income stream and then depending on your service contracts and how you structure them, it's also aftermarket opportunity, break-fix opportunity, right? So you can boost your revenue stream that way. So I just feel like that Wall Street kind of tends to look at top-line growth. And sometimes on the service side of the business, we might be too focused on that regular revenue stream. And what we have to be looking at is how do we leverage service to grow that top-line growth, right? And I'll never forget it. We had an intern working for us, an MBA student, who said that sales was the sexy side of the business. And I was like... Well, I kind of feel that way about service. Like this is like we have the relationships with the customers. We can leverage those relationships. They trust us. We build trust. And a lot of sales can be driven from trust if you're delivering on the service that you need to deliver to the customer.

Sarah - 00:06:31:

Right.

John - 00:06:32:

Well, in one of our State of 50 recipients is Ged Cranny from- It's the most appropriate time for me to drop this direct. Well, in one of our State of 50 recipients is Ged Cranny from Konica Minolta who said, "Sales is from the wallet or the pocket and service is from the art". And I thought that was really a really great comment. Great one.

Sarah - 00:06:51:

Absolutely. I said this on stage, but service excellence. Is often when service is done seamlessly, invisibly, even... Predictively, right? So not even getting to the point where you have a failure that you need to go and fix, right? And I think that contributes to it being sometimes intangible, invisible to organizations. Just to kind of build upon what you both said, part of the purpose of this initiative is not only to recognize the leadership of these individuals and the team work of those behind them are doing, but also to elevate the prominence of service with leadership across the business and to help them understand that it is not only critically important, but it can be a powerful engine for innovation and growth. Right? So that being said, if we think about the leaders themselves, what are your thoughts on in today's landscape? What characteristics make a service leader stand out?

John - 00:08:02:

Well, I think we kind of talked about this in the opening commentary, why we're recognizing standout 50, which is their ability to culturally ship the organization in the direction of service to recognize. I think that's one big part of it, right? The recognition and then the cascading of that culture across the organization, that's a big critical part. The other is this notion that we're in this world of automation and technology and digital transformations dominated the agenda from the last five plus years now, right? And so you're seeing this battle between a human led approach versus a digital first approach. And I think those service leaders that are doing a really, really fantastic job are finding the parallels between those. That it's not one or the other, it's both, right? That you can find the intersection point and have those two things work in harmony rather than against each other. So that was one, that was another criteria. And then the other is that they just embrace a bottom up approach, that they listen. They involve their frontline in the innovation and the transformation, all the goodness that's happening at the organization. They're doing ride-alongs, they're doing listening posts and councils and things to gather feedback from the frontline to the leadership so that they can make changes that can impact the organization moving forward. That's some of the things that stand out to me.

Dot - 00:09:13:

And I think that the value of that technician and the relationship with the customer, the trust value with the customer and that engagement, that respect and how you treat them is just so critical because, and I think also if you're a leader who values your technicians and they know you're listening and they know you're acting upon their recommendations and weeding them into how you're attacking to upper management and how you're guiding the organization down paths, that just pays dividends, right? And so now when you have to try something, you want to try a new product or you want to pilot an idea. You can say like, hey, I'm looking for like five people to try this new process or this new technology or this new app that I found. Who's willing to try it for me? You're going to have hands raised if you're that kind of standout leader. People are going to want to help you figure things out. And the fact that you're coming to them and saying who wants to help is huge.

Sarah - 00:10:20:

Yeah.

Dot - 00:10:20:

Right. And so it just and that just success builds upon success. Right. Once you have that vibe going and the energy going in the right direction, there's just no stopping you as a team.

Sarah - 00:10:31:

Yeah. I would just add, I think these leaders have to be masters in prioritization. Between putting time, effort, energy into their teams because those teams are serving the customers, knowing what matters to the customers and what that means to the business. But also, as we talked about, evangelizing the role of service within the business, figuring out when and where to innovate, how to meet the demands of today's business, while also thinking ahead. There's all of these different things. And then continuous learning. I think these leaders are very willing to self-reflect and not become not only complacent, but just beholden to anyone's style or approach, right? They're constantly willing to listen and learn and evolve. And, you know, that benefits them, but it also benefits their teams and their companies and their customers. So you both come at this from a bit of a different angle. So Dot... You spent 30 plus years leading service yourself. And I'm just wondering if you can share a time that you felt. Well-recognized or acknowledged for your leadership and that impact it had on you.

Dot - 00:11:51:

When I first became a branch manager, so I'm going way back. So I had been a supervisor and I've gone to school at night, got my MBA, became a manager. And I can remember going to my first regional review with the regional manager and him saying, thank you for your leadership. The results are outstanding. And I'm like, the results are the team's results. Right. And he was like, no. The results are your results. And I was like, no, the results are the team's results. But it takes a leader who's willing to enable and empower the team to get those results. So I still don't feel like I wanted that recognition. And I don't know that I ever will. I just wanted it to be known that team that was part of my group. Had that capability all along.

Sarah - 00:12:44:

Yeah.

Dot - 00:12:44:

Right? And then what happens is they get a ton of confidence. And where something used to be a roadblock, they're like, oh, no, we can work around that. We can come over it, under it. I'm like, it's just a roadblock. There's other ways to do this. Let's figure it out. And it was just amazing to see the confidence grow. And I think more than life changing for me, it was life changing for them because they all realized how much more they were capable of doing.

Sarah - 00:13:17:

Now, you mentioned that you feel, you know, when that person said sales is the sexy side of the business and you said, no, services. A lot of times, though, there is this conversation about the fact that the salespeople are constantly acknowledged and rewarded and amplified throughout the organization. And that's not always true in service. So. That's one of the reasons we did this initiative. And while I'm absolutely honored to acknowledge these 50 leaders right now, I'm also wondering, God, if you can think about from your perspective through levels of the service organization. What could companies consider about how to ensure that their... Paying attention to who's standing out in their organization. Acknowledging that hard work?

Dot - 00:14:06:

So I think there's, depending on the size of the organization, there's leadership development programs, right, where you get tapped on the shoulder, you're given opportunities. Maybe you have roundtable discussions and you invite service leaders, like people who are doing a nice job with their teams, have the CO have a roundtable, invite those people to that opportunity. But the other thing is just to even get that acknowledgement of a job well done. One thing that always like stood out to me is in the height of COVID, right at the very beginning, we had some people who just went above and beyond, like amazingly above and beyond. And we didn't know how to acknowledge that. And I talked to the president of the company and said, could you write a thank you now? Could you write a thank you letter just to thank them for what they've done? And he's like, well, I'll write it if you co-sign it with me, right? Because we did it together. And, so we did. So we wrote a thank you letter to those key people who had just gone above and beyond where normally we would have given a gift card or an extra high award or some other award. It was a letter, that had the most impact. And you know what they did with that? They put it on the refrigerator for their kids to sing. And they said, look at what I got today.

Sarah - 00:15:19:

Yeah.

Dot - 00:15:20:

It was huge. It was so meaningful. And it didn't cost us anything.

Sarah - 00:15:24:

Yes. And it's such a good reminder of the impact. Those things have. It doesn't have to be costly. It doesn't have to be some extravagant thing. That reminded me, I was just having a conversation a week or two ago with a leader. A senior leader in an organization. And he gave the example of because of his level, he gets a lot of like company swag, or he'll get tickets to a game or this or that. And he said, I'm going to point like... I have plenty of t-shirts and hats and this and that. So what I do every time is pick someone on my team that I want to acknowledge something they've done. I write them a note. I send them the tickets or the whatever it is and let them know like, I wanted to share this with you because I appreciate X, Y, and Z. And I thought like, that's a really nice thing to do rather than just letting it pile up somewhere, like share it with someone who isn't getting those things. And again, it's not costing anything. It's just taking five minutes to do it and has a big impact.

John - 00:16:25:

I love these examples. One of the things that I hear commonly from service leaders is the element of surprise that they witness when they just out of the blue call one of their service team members. Right. So just calling them up and saying, hi, and how's your day? And plugging in and having a willingness to listen and get involved. So there's just an element of being open and accessible that I think can be really a part of recognition. And then we've seen some other cool things with recognition programs like CurLED programs, Schneider Electric being a great example. They have this service superhero award where every month they do a $3,000 spot bonus nominated by a peer. I think there's the compensation reward and then there's just the element of openness and being considerate of listening and being involved.

Sarah - 00:17:09:

I was thinking, too, I mean, not to name names because I know plenty of amazing leaders, but I was thinking about Gyner Ozgul, who at the time was with Smart Care and he was the president. And we had some really open, honest discussions during the pandemic about how hard it was. For them as a business, for their technicians, for him as a leader. And one of the things he was doing during that time is he would pick a different technician. I don't know if it was every night or whatever, and FaceTime them and just spend five or 10 minutes saying, how are you? Are you okay? How's your family? Because his thinking was, if I can do nothing else right now, I can let them know I care. And I mean, those personal things are really what matters the most. So, John, in the work you do at the Service Council. You interact as well with a lot of amazing service leaders. You've seen a lot of shifts in the industry and all of that. What have you noticed over the last few years in terms of characteristics, approach? What stands out to you?

John - 00:18:11:

According to our research, service leaders' mindset has shifted year over year in a pathway that might make a lot of sense as you think about the things that we were encountering in markets, right? So around the pandemic timeframe, it was very business continuity oriented, very cost oriented. That was the theme of 2020, 2019, 2020. And then as we emerged from that, the immediate turn was sports revenue, right? So they started to think, okay, how can we monetize predictive and proactive capabilities? How can we move down this outcome-based methodology and become servitized and servitization? So there was this whole focus on monetization of services and revenue generation. And that makes a lot of sense. But behind that, we saw them retreat a little bit and get this customer preservation mindset. So they wanted to preserve the customer relationship that was legacy, that wasn't monetized. So predictive and proactive, easily attainable from an operational execution standpoint. In terms of monetization, a little bit trickier. So they retreated to their legacy customers and had this preservation mindset. And that was last year. And this year, we've seen them turn to both a customer mindset, but also an innovation mindset. So there's a combination of growth around innovating with the customer. And so things like hyper-personalization, things like monetization. So it's just interesting to see as we see the mindset shift year over year. You see what happens next year.

Sarah - 00:19:36:

Yeah.

John - 00:19:36:

About to launch the service.

Sarah - 00:19:37:

Okay. We'll stay tuned. So when we were accepting nominations for the standout 50, we asked that the people nominating speak to how the leaders they were nominating stand out in their innovative approaches, their authenticity, and their execution of service strategies. So those were sort of the three categories we were looking for input around. I want to ask you both, and Dot, we're going to start with you this time. In your opinion, which of those three is most important and why?

Dot - 00:20:09:

I think authenticity, because you want to work for an authentic leader. You want to work with somebody who has steady and strong morals, who isn't a different person in front of senior leadership than they are with you, and who treats everybody equally with respect from senior leadership to the service technician. Doesn't matter where you are in the organization, you're equally respected. And somebody who's an authentic leader, who's true to themselves and true to their people, I think is the most valuable leader that you can have. And one thing that I think an authentic leader does is admit when they don't know something and not have any issues with that whatsoever. So there's that humility factor, just like, I'm not afraid to say I don't know that answer. And hopefully you have a strong enough team that you built that somebody on your team knows the answer or you know where to go to get that.

Sarah - 00:21:01:

Or you can figure it out together.

Dot - 00:21:02:

You can figure it out together. But it just, I want to work for an authentic person. I don't want to work for somebody who's not going to be honest with me and tell me exactly where I stand. So I think that it's a huge benefit to have that. And I think all of the nominees, when you read across their nominations, all came across as truly authentic leaders, which was, it was fun to read the nominations just for that.

John - 00:21:27:

Yeah. I wasn't going to say all that just to surprise you. Because it's so important. It was a close second, but I would lean on innovation. And I think one of the things, it speaks to both the mindset shift of the service leader, as I just outlined, but it also speaks to something that I've been looking at, which is with all this automation, institution of guided workflows, how can we script service delivery and automate it and subordinate human-led tasks versus digital-led tasks? Are we taking the fun out of service, right? It's like, because like one of the things we talk about with our voice of the field service engineer survey every year, we get several thousand responses from technicians and we ask them, what do you like about the job? And what do you dislike about the job? They don't like paperwork and admin. They don't like time spent finding information. Time spent finding information, superseded paperwork and admin for the first time this year. But on the things they like, they want to collaborate with their team. They want to solve problems and fix things. That's inherent to their nature. So with all this automation and scripting and guided and digital automation and everything that's happening, are we losing that innovation for it? And so innovation would be my answer.

Sarah - 00:22:32:

Yeah, very good. I would agree with that. If you were asking me my opinion, but only because I think it's, I think authenticity supersedes a leader's ability to execute or a leader's ability to motivate innovation. So I think they're all important. But if I were picking, that's why I would pick that one. I think also you mentioned honesty. And I just think about like the inefficiency in not being open and transparent is just astounding. So. All right. Any closing thoughts from either of you on the initiative, leadership characteristics, any of the side conversations we've had today, like anything else that you would note about?

Dot - 00:23:13:

I think that for the people that we spoke about today, that we've honored today with this award, they're incredibly willing to share not only with their team, but with each other, with other industries. And this event is something that really opened your eyes to what's possible from other industries. And then you can take those ideas and you can then say like, oh, I can, I can steal that idea or borrow that idea from that company. And with a little tweaking, I can make it work for me. And so I just feel like the. Level of openness with the candidates that we awarded the prize to today. Amazing how willing they are to share their successes and then listen to the other person's concerns and maybe start brainstorming possible solutions. So it's just been, it's been fun. I mean, I've loved it. Thank you so much for inviting me to do this.

Sarah - 00:24:09:

I think that's a good point. And it made me think of something you both said, which is. Dot, when you defended that position and said, no, service is sexy. And then, John, you mentioned the people centricity, the human centricity, service being the heart. There is something incredibly special about service and the community that surrounds it. And that willingness to share knowledge and help lift one another up. And it is really special. I mean, it's why I've been doing what I've been doing for, a long time. And John, probably similar for you. And I think that's why you led service for so long and said, no, like this is the best part of the business. So I think part of this going back to like the prominence and the recognition, not of individuals, but of the importance of it comes back to figuring out how do we articulate and how do we illustrate what's so special about it to the rest of the business to make sure that we're not underplaying its importance and its potential. Yeah. So any closing thoughts from you, John?

John - 00:25:19:

I love what you guys have done here this week is amazing. Kudos to the whole IFS team on the overall event, but the standout 50 is just so important, right? To recognize service for all its importance and goodness. I love it. And the reason why I love it is because I think that service actually has an existential threat, to be honest. I actually argued that. And my opening thoughts at another event, our own earlier in September, and that is with all this automation, with all the focus on profit, with the challenges with respect to labor shortages and capacity planning issues that service leaders are facing, are we losing progress in terms of the service leader finding its way to the board? Because what I'm seeing is more prominently chief customer officer, very prominent amongst the corporate agenda, right? And when you look at the Fortune 100 companies, only 7% have a V-level plus service leader, did that research prior to my keynote, that means that there's a lot of progress still needed to be made. And so, I do think we're making progress, I argued all the reason why we should be making progress and we all agree, but I think that, there's a challenge I do and so, it excites me because it allows us to continue to do this work.

Sarah - 00:26:27:

Yeah. And I was going to say, I mean, let's all continue doing the work we're doing because we all love the community. We love what it represents. And so there's the idea of small actions with great love have a major impact. Right. So we each keep doing our part. Respect and appreciate you both so much. I want to give another massive congratulations to each of the standout 50 and their amazing teams behind that. Again, I'm thrilled to have the opportunity to honor those people, but also to collaborate with Dot, John and Tim and to each do our part in elevating the awareness of such an important function. So thank you both for being here.

Dot - 00:27:06:

Thank you, Sarah.

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Are You Overlooking the Importance and Impact of Neurodiversity at Work?

Episode 292

In this episode of the Unscripted podcast, host Sarah Nicastro welcomes Tristan Lavender, Neurodiversity Speaker, Founder and Chair of the Philips Neurodiversity Network (Employee Resource Group), Senior Content Strategist, Writer, and Editor at Philips Communications Center of Excellence, for an open and honest conversation about navigating work life with a neurodivergence and why/how companies could benefit from giving this area of diversity more thought and action.

As a neurodiversity advocate and educator, Tristan combines personal experience with over 15 years of expertise as a communicator in leading global companies like Philips, where he founded the Philips Neurodiversity Network, a global Employee Resource Group (ERG) with over 1000 members, committed to creating an environment where every mind can thrive. Tristan's mission is to build a world where every mind is empowered to succeed by educating individuals and organizations on the transformative potential of neurodiversity.

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Episode Highlights:

Tristan - 00:00:00:

In these 16 years that I didn't show with anyone that I was autistic, none of my managers knew per se. They may have suspected that I was autistic, but there's no way of knowing for sure. And it's also something that you can't really ask as a manager, like, hey, I suspect that you're autistic. Is that the case? That's not something you can ask as a manager. So the best you could do, I think, in general, and there are a lot of nuances to this, but in general, I would say focus on what people need. So I think that starts with onboarding, but also just in your day-to-day interactions, what can you do as a manager to empower that person to be at their best in their daily work?

Sarah - 00:00:46:

Hello, welcome to the UNSCRIPTED podcast, where you'll find discussions on what matters most in service, leadership, and business transformation. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Let's jump in. Welcome to the Unscripted podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Very excited for today's guest and the topic that we're going to be talking about. We're going to be talking about the question I think every leader should be asking themselves, which is, are you overlooking the importance and impact of neurodiversity at work? So I'm thrilled to have with us today, Tristan Lavender, who is a neurodiversity speaker. He is also the founder and chair of the Philips Neurodiversity Network, which is an employee resource group. And he is a senior content strategist, writer, and editor for the Philips Communication Center of Excellence. So Tristan, welcome to the UNSCRIPTED podcast.

Tristan - 00:01:43:

Thank you, Sarah, for having me on.

Sarah - 00:01:44:

I'm very excited for today's chat. It's been in the works for a bit. We've been exchanging messages and comparing busy calendars. And here we finally are. So I found you on LinkedIn and started following you there. And I deeply admire the insight that your content provides and also the courage and effort that it takes to speak publicly about your journey and the things that you are trying to bring light to. So that's why I'm so, so happy to have you here. So your passion from around neurodiversity and bringing awareness to this comes from your own personal experience. And I'm sure there's plenty of listeners that don't know you yet and are meeting you for the first time. So if you could just start with anything you're comfortable sharing about your own story, your own journey, and how that brought you to the work that you do.

Tristan - 00:02:38:

I'm happy to. So growing up, if we go back in time, I always felt different from other kids, but I never really understood why. So I always had a hard time interacting with other kids, even in the playground. I was always the shy kid and I often used to hide behind trees when other kids were just having a good time. But I never really understood why I had such a hard time just being like other kids. And especially later in adolescence, that really led to a lot of mental health challenges, even depression and anxiety, because I just wanted to connect with others. I wanted to be like everyone else, but I was just not quite able to connect with others. And it actually took me until the age of 23 before I discovered why I'd always been struggling, because that's when I was diagnosed with autism.

Sarah - 00:03:29:

Mm-hmm.

Tristan - 00:03:30:

And that came as a huge shock for me at the time, to be honest, because that's something that I'd never considered before. Ironically, I just graduated in psychology and I started studying the subject, but it had just never occurred to me that I could be on the autism spectrum.

Sarah - 00:03:47:

Not to interrupt, but I also, my undergrad is in psychology and I remember very early in my studies, a professor saying, if you are here because you want to figure yourself out, that's not the right reason to be here.

Tristan - 00:03:59:

Nope.

Sarah - 00:04:01:

Even when you're studying different things, you're not doing so through the lens of reflecting on yourself necessarily, and you really maybe shouldn't be. So I don't think it was a miss. It was just, yes, but I understand the shock. Okay, so.

Tristan - 00:04:16:

Exactly. So things start, the pieces of the puzzle start falling into place when I received my diagnosis. But at the same time, it is something that I also had a very hard time processing because the more I started reading about autism, the more I was confronted with what I lack as a person. Like everything I read about autism was about deficits. So for that reason, it was a huge struggle for me. And I was always quite ashamed to share with others that I'm on the autism spectrum because I was just worried what other people may think of me, especially also in a professional context. So for that reason, it actually took me more than 16 years before I finally felt comfortable sharing this with another human being at work for the very first time in my life, 16 years after the initial diagnosis. So I think that journey shows you what a struggle it can be for autistic or neurodivergent people more broadly to come to terms with who they are and then also feel comfortable sharing that aspect of their identity with others.

Sarah - 00:05:17:

Yeah, and that can be very lonely, right? That 16 years is there's a big part of yourself that you're either hiding or you're not sure how to share. And that you spoke about when you were younger, the ties to mental health, feeling that you can't be yourself or you have to hide certain things that can cause things like depression to come up because it's very isolating.

Tristan - 00:05:40:

It's also tiring. And I think maybe a lot of people in the audience will also be able to relate to this in their own ways that in a professional context, we're, of course, always adapting in a sense to what's expected of us in a certain professional role. But especially for those who are under a divergence, that pressure to adapt, to conform, to be like others tends to be even stronger, which also just is very exhausting. It takes a lot of energy to constantly trying to be someone you're not in order to fit in.

Sarah - 00:06:11:

Right.

Tristan - 00:06:12:

That also just took a lot of energy from me all those years.

Sarah - 00:06:15:

Yeah. So, we talked before we started recording that I would likely start asking questions that we didn't talk about beforehand. So two things that we haven't spoke about that I'm curious about is when you were 23 and you got that diagnosis and you were processing all of that initially, what were you doing work-wise at the time? Like what environment were you working in?

Tristan - 00:06:40:

Yeah, so I just finished university, as I mentioned, and I was still, to be honest, not sure what my career would look like. So I was in a bit of a transition period. I took on an internship as a journalist initially because I'd always loved writing. So that's something that I considered as a career. But I wasn't quite sure yet at the time. And I will also say, in all honesty, that I really hit my low point around that time in terms of mental health at one point. I even wondered if I'd be able to have a career in the first place because I was even struggling just with my day-to-day life.

Sarah - 00:07:15:

Yeah.

Tristan - 00:07:15:

Which is hard to imagine in hindsight, but that's a shine. It was really a huge burn.

Sarah - 00:07:20:

Well, and that's one of the reasons I asked, I'll ask the second question before I comment, which is the 16 years that it took between learning that about yourself or not really learning it about yourself, being able to put a label to what you had felt, right? So having a diagnosis between then and 16 years later, getting to the point of sharing that for the first time. And I guess maybe we'll get into this in our outline, but I'm curious how much of that was... Your work, your internal work, and processing that, getting more comfortable with what this means in your life, and building the confidence to be able to share that versus 16 years of what I would like to imagine as is progress of living in a world that is more accepting of differences?

Tristan - 00:08:17:

I think it's a combination of both. I think the biggest change in mindset for me has been that, as I just described, when I initially got the diagnosis, I just viewed autism through the lens of deficits. But what I've learned to appreciate over the years is that being artistic also comes with certain strengths. And these strengths are unique to each individual. But throughout my career, and I've been lucky to have had a career, I also learned that there are specific qualities, such as being highly detail-oriented, being very focused in my work, that can actually help me add a lot of value also in collaboration with others. So I've learned to view autism in a more positive light. Even though it still comes with its challenges and struggles, which I don't want to downplay in any way. So I think part of it was the mindset, but I do recognize there were also what you shared about times are changing. I think in general, there's a wider societal acceptance of mental health challenges more broadly. And I think in our diversity, even though- So exactly the same as mental health is also one of the topics that is, I think, now... Yeah, more becoming a topic of conversation, also fueled by younger generations, I think, who feel more comfortable talking about it. So that has definitely also helped to make me feel more comfortable being open about being autistic with others as well.

Sarah - 00:09:42:

Yeah, and I think I had that thought pop into my mind, like... It's hard for me not to want to put myself in the minds of what you were going through at 23 and in the 16 years until you were able to feel comfortable sharing. And there's no way for us to cover all of that. And that's not what we're here to do. But without talking about years and specific timeframes, I would guess that a large part of it was your work. Because I think we're still, this topic is still not. As widely discussed or open as it needs to be. And that's why we're having this conversation today. So if we start working back in timeframes, it's less and less so, right? And so that's just a testament to your personal perseverance. But also, I love what you said about... So I've shared here before, but not everyone listens to every podcast. I have ADHD, which I did not learn until I was in my late 30s, actually. I also have CPTSD from childhood trauma, which brings about a number of different things. And... So there's elements of what you're saying of feeling different that I can identify with and also having to compensate for those things in a professional setting, feeling like if you're not going to be understood, you have to figure out how to do all of that work inside yourself to keep pace with what is expected. But I also love the point you made about the shift in perspective. And I think an element of acceptance, right? I think you can get into a space of why am I this way? This is hard, this is lonely, etc. Those things that you probably dealt with a lot when you went through that really hard period, and I'm sure at times since. But I love your point about not focusing on the deficiencies or the negatives or the why, but instead, figuring out how to shift your focus to what are the superpowers, right? And so for you, you mentioned being very detail-oriented, having an ability to really focus. But I also just want to say it's the work you're doing to bring light to this and to take what is a personal journey that can be very hard to articulate and putting words to it in a way that helps a lot of other people understand. And that... Is something that should make 23-year-old you very proud and is having a huge impact on the world. So that is a superpower as well.

Tristan - 00:12:14:

Yeah, thank you for that. If I can add to that, I also feel it really has a responsibility to now be more open about this topic, knowing that I'm also now in a relatively privileged position in the sense I work for a big company. I've been lucky to have a career. And I know that many autistic people are unemployed. I mean, that is just a hard fact. So I think there's also a sense of privilege, which then also comes with the feeling of responsibility. I think those who are in a position to speak up about this can hopefully also help. Ultimately break down barriers for others who are still struggling today. That is what I see as my personal mission.

Sarah - 00:12:54:

Yes, and that's why I thank you to everyone that's listening and to you, Tristan, for indulging me in a bit of a personal setup. But it's also why I... From a personal perspective, wanted to have you here. Because if I have any platform that's reaching any number of people that I can help bring light to topics that I think need that attention, I also feel an obligation to do that. So... Okay. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for letting me share a bit. And let's now shift gears to the part of the conversation that is about not the personal recognition of those strengths or superpowers, but the reason it's important for businesses to understand that different neuro divergencies. Aren't just a set of potential deficiencies in the workplace. They're also a set of strengths. So can you just talk about in the work you do, the speaking you do, your public experience, your interaction with other folks, what does neurodiversity mean for businesses? And what do we need to create awareness about there from the perspective of how do leaders and companies need to be thinking about why it's important to understand this better and be more accommodating?

Tristan - 00:14:13:

That's a great question, and that's something that I'm now working daily on in my role as a leader of our neurodiversity and resource group at Philips. I think it all starts with the understanding that we are all different. No two brains are the same, as I like to say, because there can be this perception that neurodiversity is a topic that is only relevant to a specific group of people. So people like me who are autistic or people like you who have ADHD. Well, in fact, neurodiversity is a much broader concept, which recognizes that we're all wired differently and that we all have our own unique strengths and challenges at work. But it is also true, as we discussed before, that neurodivergent people, people like you and me, who have brains that are wired differently from the majority, we have often more pronounced strengths or superpowers, as you call them yourself. But also certain challenges that we may face because we differ from the majority and the environments in which we operate are often designed for the majority. So that may create barriers for us also in the workplace. So I think it is important for employers to also take that balanced perspective and recognize that neurodivergent people can add a lot of value to your organization precisely because they think differently and because they bring unique strengths that others may not be able to offer. But the other side of that is that you then, as an employer, as a business, also need to create the environment. That is able to adapt to what these individuals need in order to bring their best selves to work. So for me, it's all about taking that balanced perspective. And what we also say at Philips, we are an innovation company. Innovation is very important to us. And that is always what we also use as a frame as an employee resource group when we talk about neurodiversity. In order to innovate as a company, you need people who think differently. You need different perspectives in a team, you need that healthy friction. So neurodiversity is also, I think, really essential for any team and for any organization. I think it will also become more important as we now have the rise of AI. Like it's relatively easy to automate standard thinking.

Sarah - 00:16:27:

Yeah.

Tristan - 00:16:28:

So we're going to need more of the new and original thinking. I think a lot of neurodivergent people can't bring that strength to work. So I think it's only going to be more important that employers embrace this.

Sarah - 00:16:41:

Yeah, I love that perspective. And I think it ties back to, we've had a number of conversations on this podcast about diversity in different... Areas. And our audience specifically, when we talk about the frontline workforce, it's very male-dominated, not incredibly diverse, and companies are wanting to work on that. And when we bring it back to the value of diversity, it always comes back to diversity of thought. It's not about meeting quotas or this or that. It's about bringing in all of these different benefits that gives a company in its interaction with its customers, in its ability to innovate and bring new ideas to light, etc. And so this is just another area of that conversation that I think is maybe, just based on what I've experienced, less evolved or mature than some of the other focuses on diversity. And so, but the benefit to an organization is very much the same as what we would talk about in creating diversity in a number of other ways. So I want to go through a couple of different points here and try and just dig into some specifics that I hope might be able to help folks. I guess the first would be if someone who's listening is working in an organization where the term neurodiversity is not in any of the materials, it's not discussed, it's not part of the culture, where do you start in ensuring that the topic becomes one that the organization knows is important, but also can start discussing a bit more openly?

Tristan - 00:18:24:

Yeah, that's a great question. And if I go back in time to the moment that I started our employee resource group at Philips, roughly two years ago, now together with a group of colleagues, we were also at that stage, I think, as an organization where I could literally not find the term neurodiversity anywhere, like on our company intranet or in any way. So we also really had to start from scratch. I think what has been extremely powerful for us as an employee research group, so what I would also like to offer as a suggestion to the audience, is that one way of making this topic really relatable for people is by initially focusing on sharing personal stories, like you and I are doing in this podcast conversation as well. Because it can be a bit of an abstract. When people start reading, start listening to personal stories, they will often find that they can actually relate to some of the struggles that others may be going through, even if they don't necessarily have the same label.

Sarah - 00:19:23:

Sure.

Tristan - 00:19:23:

So just to give you a concrete example, as an autistic person, I really struggle with noise sensitivity. That is something that, for example, an introverted colleague may just as well be able to relate to for other reasons, because a lot of introverted people also prefer more quiet environments. So I think as soon as you start openly sharing these stories, then that can help people relate, can help bring the topic to life in very human and relatable ways. And I think that is especially powerful if it comes from people in leadership positions. So that has also been a focus for us with the resource group from the start. How can we get people in senior positions to share their stories? Because that is what can create the psychological safety for others in your organization to start feeling more comfortable speaking about this topic as well. I think we really need these role models in senior leadership positions to make it easier for others to start talking about this as well. That is so important because I shared in my personal story that it took me 16 years to get to the point where I felt comfortable sharing my story. There's also plenty of research which shows that my story is definitely not an exception. So there was a study conducted by Birkbeck University of London last year, for example, which showed that 65% of neurodivergent individuals and organizations do not feel comfortable sharing their neurodivergence with their manager or their co-workers because they're afraid of it. What may happen, they're afraid of stigma, of discrimination, often from their own co-workers, from their managers. So I think that shows the importance of starting migrating that psychological safety and sharing personal stories is one great way to start doing that.

Sarah - 00:21:13:

Absolutely. Yeah, I'm a big believer in the power of storytelling. And somebody has to be brave enough to start, right? But it's hard if it's not happening. Once you can see these examples that are relatable, and to your point, we've had similar conversations with... When I think about some of the conversations we've had about improving diversity around bringing more women into certain roles or into certain things, it's the same example of when you have a CEO who is a father who says, hey, I have to leave early today to go pick my kids up from school. It's a very powerful example. It means a lot, right? So those things do have an impact and are very important. I also wanted to ask you about hiring. So you mentioned that, unfortunately, there's a number of neurodivergent folks that are not employed. And I'm sure that we have to think about the fact that. This is all a continuum, right? And so there's not only, and I think that's one of the things that makes neurodiversity challenging because it's... It can be hard to really feel like you're getting your arms around it because you're talking about what could be a whole bunch of different diagnoses. But we're also saying, just like you said, it's not really about the diagnosis. It's about what it means to the individual. So just like the example you shared about noise sensitivity, noise sensitivity could be a factor for people that have a number of different diagnoses. And so it can be, I think, hard to like pin down in that way. And there may be people who do struggle to the point that having a career like you or I do is not an option, right? But then there's a whole lot of people who... It could be a great option if... They saw it as one, and if the workplace understood some of the things we're talking about. So when it comes to... Job postings and recruiting and interviewing. I know this also could be its own conversation and we don't have time to get into everything I'm sure you could share, but just anything high level for people to reflect on in our hiring practices inclusive. Are we leaving people out because we're not being aware of these things?

Tristan - 00:23:42:

Yeah, this is a great question because I think what we just discussed was about how do we break the stigma, how to get the conversation going, and how do we create awareness for the topic. But I think even though that is important for a step, it's not enough. Ultimately, it's also about building skills, building competencies. And hiring practices, I think, are an important area with that. So maybe just to give you a personal example to start answering your question. When I was younger, I applied for a role. This was in my early twenties. This was even before my diagnosis, so I wasn't even aware that I was autistic yet. I didn't make a lot of eye contacts with the recruiter in this conversation. That is something that a lot of autistic people struggle with. I still struggle with that today. Maintaining eye contact with another person is tiring for me. I've trained myself to do it when it's needed, but it doesn't come natural to me. So what happened in that job interview is that I was ultimately rejected. And one of the reasons that the recruiter gave afterwards was the lack of eye contact. And I think this is, I'm giving you this as a practical example, because even though there were other valid reasons why I may not have been the best fit for that job. I think this is an example of where a narrative version person may be judged or evaluated on a behavioral aspect that is not necessarily relevant to the job. But because there can be this unconscious expectation or bias that... If someone doesn't make eye contact in a conversation, they may be less trustworthy or less capable. That can easily lead to a candidate being rejected. So I'm giving you this as an example because we're also addressing it at this practical level, for example, at Philips, where ERG has also been hosting sessions for our recruiters, where we bring up these examples to make our recruiters more aware, of type of situation that I just mentioned.

Sarah - 00:25:42:

Yeah.

Tristan - 00:25:44:

Second example could be that a lot of neurodivergent people may experience heightened anxiety in a job interview, often because it has been such a huge struggle for them to get a job, or they may have had negative or even traumatic experiences in different aspects of their lives. So the job interview may even be a bigger deal for them than for others. And as an autistic person, for example, I naturally already struggle to respond on the spot to questions. Add that anxiety of a job interview on top of that, and that might really hamper me in my performance during a job interview. So here, for example, a very practical suggestion that we often offer, and that you also see more and more organizations now applying their hiring practices, is that they share interview questions in advance, because that allows an order of people and other candidates to come better prepared, and also to lessen the anxiety, because you take away that anxiety of, okay, what questions are they going to ask me? How do I respond in the moment? So that's another practical example, I think, where you can really change your process to lower the barrier for many neurodivergent people.

Sarah - 00:27:02:

Yeah, no, that's a really good example. And I want to also talk about being more inclusive in hiring is one thing for folks to consider. And again, there's a lot of other input and advice out there that we could get into on that topic specifically.

Tristan - 00:27:19:

No, I've had these questions to surface. So these are just two practical examples.

Sarah - 00:27:22:

Right, right, right, right.

Tristan - 00:27:23:

Many more considerations.

Sarah - 00:27:24:

Yeah, and maybe you'd be willing to come back at some point and we could talk in more detail about some of these areas. But, you know, this is the first time we're talking about this topic here. So I did want to kind of go through some of the high points, if you will. And so that doesn't lend itself to a lot of depth on everyone or we would be here for a few hours. But so what I'm also curious about are your thoughts on. Really what comes after, right? So there's a lot of different areas to this too that we could talk about just in terms of overall company culture and things like that. But I think what I really want to focus on is the relationship with a... Manager or leader and what leaders need to be thinking about or considering in their approach and their styles and what adaptations or accommodations might be helpful if they want to be more considerate and inclusive of neurodiverse teams? What are your thoughts on that?

Tristan - 00:28:28:

Yeah, I think that's another very important question because indeed you can have a very neuro-inclusive hiring process, but if you then end up working with a manager who doesn't really know how to navigate your brain and your working style, then that could still lead to a very poor working experience, for both.

Sarah - 00:28:47:

Yeah.

Tristan - 00:28:48:

So I think you already touched on an important point earlier by saying that it's not necessarily about the label or the diagnosis. It's about what people need. I think that is a really critical point because... Again, if I take myself as an example, not because I like talking about myself, but just to make it really tangible for people. In these 16 years that I didn't share with anyone that I was autistic, none of my managers knew per se. They may have suspected that I was autistic, but there's no way of knowing for sure. And it's also something that you can't really ask as a manager, like, hey, I suspect that you're autistic. Is that the case? That's not something you can ask as a manager. So the best you could do, I think, in general. And there are a lot of nuances to this, but in general, I would say focus on what people need. So I think that starts with onboarding, but also just in your day-to-day interactions. What can you do as a manager to empower that person to be at their best in their daily work? To make that a bit less abstract. What, for example, has really helped me in my career with the managers that I've had is that... I mentioned earlier that I'm not very good at responding on the spot often, especially when I'm in large groups. I really experience anxiety. Anxiety my mind needs more time to process information. So what- My current manager, for example, also does really well, is that she, always, where possible, share us. Information with me ahead of meetings, workshops, so that I can prepare at my own pace, in my own space, at my own time. That is so helpful for me. And yeah, that is an adaptation, if you will, that doesn't cost her a lot of additional time and energy. And it also ends up benefiting my colleagues who are not autistic, because in general, yeah, it's good meeting practice anyway to share an agenda rather than three weeks, that's essential. But she does really make that mindful effort also to help me in that way, which has been really helpful. But the fact that I'm autistic is not necessarily super relevant there. It's more the need, hey, I need information in advance. Do you really think things should come prepared? Someone's introverted may benefit from that as well.

Sarah - 00:31:14:

Sure.

Tristan - 00:31:16:

So just as one example of, I think, how focusing on needs can be really helpful in creating the conditions where someone can bring their strengths to work. But then also being mindful, I think, that people, neurodivergent people, may have certain areas that don't come naturally to them, where they're never going to be able to excel. And where if you expect them to be like others, that comes at a real cost. Just to give you one example, as an autistic person, I may be really tired at the end of a team day because the constant social interaction is just really draining for me. So... If I'm then expected to attend a four-hour team dinner as well, I may not be able to function the next day. I may literally need another day to recover before they can work for me again. So then also having the understanding from a manager and the flexibility to say like, hey, you're very welcome to join team dinner, but if you want to go home... Please go home because that is just who you are. That is, you need that recovery time to be at your best the next day. And that is fine.

Sarah - 00:32:25:

Or perhaps, I don't know your thoughts on this, but another option could be, depending on the environment that you're working in or what the role is, we really feel that... This team bonding is important. So would you attend and take tomorrow to recharge, right? I mean, exactly.

Tristan - 00:32:45:

So there's no fixed recipe, but it's having that open conversation.

Sarah - 00:32:49:

Yeah, and it goes back to making people feel comfortable to articulate what it is they need without fear of repercussion, whether that's discrimination or it's just being perceived in a certain way or it's not being protected to the group. The manager getting to that dinner and saying, someone saying, well, where's Tristan? He didn't want to come. Right. Instead of responding that way, being able to advocate for you in those situations in a way that helps the team understand. Right. And again, where you are in your career today and because of your effort to speak out. People know this about you now, right? Like people in Phillips, like you lead the resource group. But when we think about people who are maybe on day one of after that 16 year pause of not knowing how to say something and in a role that people don't know this, but you need leaders who can not only understand, but support and advocate for you in a way that isn't sharing too much, but like that you need people that understand and can support you not only directly, but in the team setting as well.

Tristan - 00:34:04:

Absolutely, yes.

Sarah - 00:34:05:

Yeah.

Tristan - 00:34:05:

I think the notion of viewing this also through a team lens is also important. If I can give one more practical example that we discussed in a leadership session yesterday at Phillips also is, do we keep cameras on or off during a virtual meeting? This is something that audience members also want to be able to relate to from their experience. Different people, they're also different needs and preferences. Because some people may find it tiring to be on camera all day long if they have back-to-back virtual meetings. So they may prefer to switch off their camera at a certain point, but then there may be others who really rely on the visual and the emotional cues that are visible and they may really struggle to follow a conversation or stay engaged when they do not see another person. So I think it's also worth discussing in a team context, what are each person's needs and preferences? How can we meet each other halfway where needed? And having that shared understanding is I think also really critical where managers also have an important role to play in facilitating these conversations, inviting people to share what they need to be at their best. That is, I think, also pretty critical.

Sarah - 00:35:10:

Yeah, I've never said this out loud, but I always have camera on because with ADHD, for me, if I don't, I will start multitasking and I won't be fully engaged. I won't fully listen, actively listen and retain what's said. And I know that about myself, but that's my own thing. To your point, it's about understanding each individual's needs and also figuring out where do we need to come to the middle for the benefit of one person or a couple people can't always be the one making concessions, right? In a team setting, the leader needs to be able to balance the needs of everyone. There was a video that I came across quite a while ago, and I believe it was on TikTok, and I have since deleted TikTok, and I'm not using that anymore. And I wish I could find it because it was a leader speaking about their approach to onboarding new employees. And I think there was six or so questions that they asked as they brought a new member onto their team. They were so good, but they were essentially about understanding these individual needs and preferences in a way that set the stage from the very beginning about how that leader... Could best serve them and accommodate them. It was so good. I'm going to maybe see if I can find it or something similar just to give... Because we talk about this in a lot of other contexts, too, but that one-on-one relationship with your leader is incredibly important, particularly when the organization you're a part of might not be where you would like it to be on this topic, right? So oftentimes... That positive change or that acceptance or that feeling of being accepted and belonging can start with that relationship. And ultimately, I believe those relationships can model what needs to be done by other leaders and across the business. But for leaders that want to understand this better and understand their employees better and be more accommodating, there are some really specific actions that you can take that aren't... Too much extra work that can make a tremendous difference.

Tristan - 00:37:32:

Exactly. And I know that the topic can sometimes also come with anxiety. We just understand that, from people leaders, from managers because what if I get it wrong? Especially because being neurodivergent is in many cases a medical condition, so that can also come with privacy considerations. So what if I get it wrong? But that would also encourage maybe leaders who are listening just to not be fearful of getting it wrong. And as long as you're just open, curious, willing to engage in that conversation with the person, they can also educate you on certain things that may be new to you. And you can figure things out together just in open, trusted dialogue.

Sarah - 00:38:12:

So the other thing I wanted to talk about is the work that you're doing with the Phillips Neurodiversity Network. So the employee resource group. So you founded that group, lead that group. I know we talked about the fact that it has over a thousand members and this development of community around, you know. I don't want to just say topics like this. For some people, it might be a topic. It might be something they want to understand better. They want to provide allyship around. And for some people, it's more than a topic. It's their lives, right? So can you just share a bit about your journey creating that group and the impact that building something like that can have on the employees and on the company?

Tristan - 00:38:57:

Yeah, this could be a whole conversation in itself, so I'll try to keep it short. I think in a nutshell, our purpose has always been twofold. So on the one hand, as I mentioned, when I started this together with colleagues, the topic was to never publicly discuss at all in the company. So we wanted to start by creating a safe space, a community where people can come together to start exchanging experiences, to start feeling more comfortable, to be open about their differences, whether that is because people are neurodivergent or because they may have a neurodivergent family member or relative, or they just simply want to be better allies. So we opened that up to everyone. So creating that community was a big focus, but then a second pillar of our approach has always been that we also really want to amplify the voice of our community to help inform your inclusive policies and practices. So just to give you a very practical example of that. Like in any large organization, neurodivergent people may struggle with certain aspects of office design because, for example, they may not be able to concentrate easily because of the noise or because of light sensitivity. So what we're also doing with our community is channeling that feedback on behalf of our communities, for example, colleagues in real estate or senior leaders who are able to influence office design so that we can also really make changes to the work environment that can ultimately benefit neurodivergent colleagues and often end up benefiting everyone as well. Really driving that change in the organization beyond just having the community has always been a second ambition of us as well. And I think that has worked out really well. I mean, we still have a long way to go, but I think we now have a community where people feel more comfortable having these conversations, and at least with each other, maybe not always yet with their managers, but at least with each other. And I just see a lot of interest from senior leaders, from line managers who want to learn more about this topic or really embracing that to work in collaboration with them to ultimately create these more welcoming and inclusive environments.

Sarah - 00:41:08:

Yeah. I mean, it's incredible just that it's grown to have so many people involved and to think about the impact that's having on them as individuals to feel, you know, that sense of inclusivity and acceptance that thinking back to your early feelings around this, you would have only hoped would exist, right? So that's great. But also to your point, using that as a source of education and information and to prompt action within the business of here's what this means, here's what this means people need, here's how acting upon this can help, employees be more productive, more comfortable, more satisfied in their roles. It's phenomenal work. I also wanted to ask just quickly about the work you do speaking. So we didn't talk about that or have that on the outline, but you have your quote day job at Philips on the content side. You have this role leading and running the employee resource group, but you also do public speaking on this topic as well. How did that sort of come to bear? I have to imagine it's really pushing yourself out of your comfort zone.

Tristan - 00:42:27:

Here's the funny thing, though. I really enjoy public speaking, which people often don't expect.

Sarah - 00:42:32:

Okay.

Tristan - 00:42:33:

Because it's not something that people typically associate with someone who's autistic. And I'm also very introverted. But there's this beautiful quote. And I think it is from Nietzsche, but I'm not sure. But it is sort of in the spirit of if you're clear on your why, then you will find the how. You'll make the how work. And I think that has really been my mindset in recent years. I have a very... I feel a very strong sense of purpose. And as I said earlier, I also have a sense of responsibility towards our community because of my relatively privileged position. Any way in which I can help ultimately have that positive impact on our community is something that I've been very keen to explore and embrace in the past few years. And public speaking, I think it's also a wonderful platform to reach the wider audience beyond setups, but also to learn from people's questions and their struggles and we're all figuring this out together. So I think it is also very valuable and something that I really enjoy.

Sarah - 00:43:36:

Yeah, I mean, again, it's a great way for you to get a sense of what does this look like in other companies or for other groups of employees. But then you're also able to share your personal journey, but the work you're doing with the Neurodiversity Network as a way to inspire other companies to take more action. And ultimately, this is what is helping make the experience for today's 23-year-old recently diagnosed neurodivergent. Young adult not have to maybe feel the same depths of struggle as you did. So, okay, I want to ask you a two-part question. On the outline, it was just one, but I want to change it to two, if that's okay. So the question was listed as, what's one myth or misperception around this topic that you'd like to quell? And if you're comfortable with it, because you're openly sharing, I'd like to ask that question. As I wrote it, I was thinking about neurodiversity as a topic. So that would be one, but... If you're comfortable with it, I also would like you to speak from your experience around someone who is openly has autism. So from both of those perspectives, I think it could be helpful to hear your thoughts.

Tristan - 00:44:59:

Yeah, I think a huge misconception around autism, but any kind of neurodivergence, is that once you know a label of the person, which is not all the case. Because when people hear autism, and this is human, I mean, I'm guilty of this myself as well when I hear a certain label. But when people hear autism, they may have a certain mental image of that picture with certain traits. And that may not accurately reflect every autistic individual because every autistic individual is unique. So that's also the disclaimer that I want to add to everything that I share. What I shared is my story. But another autistic person will have their own strengths, their own challenges. Some of the misconceptions that you see around autism specifically are, for example, that autistic people don't have empathy. That we're just these cold, logical creatures. And I understand where that stereotype comes from because a lot of autistic people, including myself, may struggle to express emotion in the moment. But that's not because we're not feeling emotion. That's because we struggle to express it in the moment. There may be simply also just a delay in the expression of the emotion. It may only hit me two days later what I really feel about something.

Sarah - 00:46:18:

Yeah.

Tristan - 00:46:19:

So there are a lot of complexities there that may create the impression that someone doesn't feel anything or lacks empathy, but that is actually often. Not at all the case. A lot of autistic people are actually hypersensitive also to other people's emotions. I could give you many more examples, but I think the takeaway is don't rely on the label. Just view every individual, including neurodivergent individuals, as unique human beings. Also because they're not just autistic or ADHD or dyslexic. There are so many other elements to their identity that also make who they are. And that's something for another day. But neurodiversity intersects with gender, race. There's so many different aspects. So you cannot really simplify it and say, okay, this is a typical autistic person. This is a typical person with ADHD. We're all very different.

Sarah - 00:47:16:

Yeah. It's interesting when you were saying that, I was just thinking my older son, he's nine years old. He was diagnosed with type one diabetes when he was three. And I learned, well, I mean, so much through that process. But it was said to me very early on that it's better to say he has type one diabetes than he is diabetic because it isn't who he is. It's a part of who he is, right? And again, that gets into terminology and distinction that matters to some people and not others. And going back to your point about like individuals fearing they get it wrong and therefore avoiding the topic, I would never want to say that. But I do think it's important to remember you don't know what you don't know. And everyone is a lot of characteristics and traits and things and no one label could ever accurately define a human being. So yeah, very good. So I just wanted to also ask, you have done a lot of work yourself. You also do public speaking and are able to interact with different organizations that way. Other than the example you have created yourself with Philips and the Neurodiversity Network, are there any other great examples that come to mind of good work that companies or organizations are doing around this topic that people could check out if they want to learn more?

Tristan - 00:48:41:

It's a great question. I'm not going to mention any specific companies. I do speak with a lot of my peers also at other companies, and maybe it's helpful if I sort of highlight what I see as a success factor across organizations that I speak with, and which I also recognize from my own experience at Philips, which is that I think ultimately for neurodiversity to really become embedded as part of an organizational culture, you need to have close collaboration between, on the one hand, an employee resource group, which can be a strong driving force, and I've seen that at Philips as well, but that always needs to happen in collaboration with HR and with senior leadership, because there's also a risk that, and I try to remind myself of this every day as well, that ultimately it shouldn't entirely rest on the shoulders of the ERG to become a more neurointensive organization. So you want your work to become embedded ultimately in the organization, in the culture, in the policies and practices. And for that, you need to work in collaboration with HR. You need to work in collaboration and leadership. That is very much also the mindset that we bring to our work at Philips. And that is, I think, also what I see really as a success factor in what I'm hearing from my peers at other companies, that collaboration is so essential. So that's what I just want to offer as one.

Sarah - 00:50:08:

I think that's a very good point. And I think in other areas of diversity as well, we have to remember the onus cannot be on the diverse group to do all of the education, to drive all of the change. It's not fair. But also to your point, you're only ultimately going to gain traction when it's embedded into the organization and it's a shared mission. So that's a really good point. So I want to make sure, and we can link your LinkedIn profile in the show notes, because as I mentioned in the introduction, you do a phenomenal job of sharing about so many different aspects of this topic on your page. And I've learned a lot. I know others could as well. I just also wanted to ask, other than folks having the opportunity to learn more from the writing that you're doing, are there any other resources that you would point people to who are listening to this and thinking, I need to educate myself better or I want to hear other people's stories? Are there any thought leaders, if you will, or educational resources that you would recommend?

Tristan - 00:51:16:

Yes, absolutely. So I'm from a pre-TikTok generation. So I'm not as well-versed in that domain. I focus most of my social media efforts on LinkedIn. I'm really an avid book reader, and there are two books that I would offer as reading recommendations. One is by Ed Thompson, which is called A Hidden Force, which I think offers a fantastic introduction to neurodiversity as a concept, but also from a work-related perspective. So I think it offers a great introduction to the topic, really covers on a lot of the topics that we also covered in this conversation, including hiring, onboarding, leadership, et cetera. So that's one. And the other book that I really enjoy is The Canary Code by Ludmila Praslova. You already mentioned also her name when we had a chat before we started the interview. What I also really like about her perspective is that she brings in the intersectionality elements of neurodiversity not existing in isolation, but intersectionality gender, with race, with cultural background, et cetera. And I think she does a great job of also highlighting that in a very personal way by highlighting personal stories from people from many different walks of life. So these will be two books that I would recommend as a starting point. There are many more, but these are the two that I would recommend to start with.

Sarah - 00:52:33:

I appreciate that. And I will link those as well. We did chat about Ludmila before we started recording, and I think I found her through following you. And I mentioned to you and failed to say in the introduction, she wrote an article not too long ago for Forbes about sort of some of the do's and don'ts around terminology around this. And again, she says in the conclusion of that article, it is important to remember that everyone makes missteps. Everyone can get it wrong at times, and that's okay. The expectation doesn't need to be perfection. But also for someone who is new to this topic or wants to understand better, it is a helpful article. So I will also share that as well. And Tristan, just want to say thank you so much for spending some time with me and our audience today and for sharing your journey and the work you've done to bring more awareness to this topic.

Tristan - 00:53:26:

Thank you so much, Sarah. I hope it was helpful. And the work continues.

Sarah - 00:53:30:

Absolutely. Yes, I will continue following and everyone else should as well. So thank you. You can find more by visiting the home of the UNSCRIPTED podcast at futureoffieldservice.com. The podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thank you for listening.

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Proximus Shares Its Facets of Field Service Excellence

Episode 291

In a session recorded live at IFS Unleashed, Steven Van Eyck, Center of Excellence Lead for Field Service at Proximus, joins Sarah Nicastro to discuss how to define “excellence” in the arena of field service today and what Proximus is focused on in creating it.

Steven is leading a Center of Excellence that caters to the Field Service Management activities for Proximus' Customer Operations Business Unit. The Center serves as the primary link between the operational field teams, the Proximus IT department, and IFS. Steven joined Proximus in 2003 as a Developer.

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Episode Highlights:

Steven - 00:00:00: I think there are three elements in that. The most obvious one being delivering the best possible service at the right time, at the right value for your customer. Second element for me is trying to find that sweet spot between customer's expectation and operational cost. And the third one, I think, is having a really agile model to keep up with all those changes that are happening in that industry, which is fast moving, rapidly changing, constantly evolving.

Sarah - 00:00:41: All right. So welcome to the UNSCRIPTED Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro, and we are here at Future of Field Service Live at IFS Unleashed in Orlando. I'm excited to be here today with Steven Van Eyck, Center of Excellence Lead for Field Service at Proximus. And we're going to be talking about the facets of field service excellence at Proximus. So, Steven, welcome to the podcast.

Steven - 00:01:21: Thank you. Good to be here.

Sarah - 00:01:23: Thanks for hanging out with me for a bit while you're in Orlando. So we're going to talk through a number of things today related to this topic, how we define what field service excellence is, the different areas we need to examine when we are working towards field service excellence and much more. But before we get into that, can you just tell everyone a little bit more about yourself, your role, what the company does and anything else you want to share?

Steven - 00:01:50: Okay. So I'm Steven, I'm 44, from Belgium. Been with Proximus for only four years now, which is quite a while. I have two kids, I hope. Love sports, love field service, obviously. Otherwise I wouldn't be in that branch. For those of you that don't know Proximus, Proximus is a Belgian telecommunication company. We do about everything that Telco is doing for B2B, B2C, B2B2X. We build our network, mobile and fix. We deliver services to the customer, on-site remote services. And my role in all of this is trying to understand how we should be doing field service, how we want to be doing field service, how we are actually doing field service, and how our tooling, our systems, our technology should best support those field service activities in a nutshell.

Sarah - 00:02:49: In a nutshell. In a nutshell. All right. So we're talking about field service excellence. Let's start with a really important question, which is how do you define that?

Steven - 00:02:59: Okay. Well, I think there's three elements in that. The most obvious one being delivering the best possible service at the right time, at the right value for your customer. Second element for me is trying to find that sweet spot between customer's expectation and operational cost. And the third one, I think, is having a really agile model to keep up with all those changes that are happening in that industry, which is fast moving, rapidly changing, constantly evolving. I would see those three elements really as a field service excellence or excellence.

Sarah - 00:03:41: Yeah. Okay. So with... Those three things in mind, how does Proxmos determine What focus is needed at any given time to attain and maintain excellence in those areas?

Steven - 00:03:56: Okay. So obviously what we have is our strategic goals, where we want to go to, what we want to achieve. We have our objectives, we have our vision, we have our targets, if you will. And these kind of define the overall strategy, what we want to focus on. At the same time, we know what our customers are expecting from us. And in that combination is trying to identify the short and midterm actions that we need to do in order to achieve excellence. It's a continuous conversation. I think this is not real. This is everybody's kind of day and hoping to find the things we need to improve on the short and the midterm.

Sarah - 00:04:36: So bonus question. Short and midterm. What about long term?

Steven - 00:04:41: Yeah. Long term, we have about a five-year target that we always know. Long term is always about... Where do you want to go to as a company? What do you want to achieve? For us, for example, one of our objectives is to become or having to have the best network, obviously the fastest network in Belgium, both fixed and mobile. And from there, we have like a clear strategy that we want to connect every household in Belgium to the fiber network. This means constructing a network, making sure it's deployed, making sure we have the necessary resources to build that network, to connect all those houses, to convince customers to move from the old network to the fiber network, and dealing also with challenges like... Competition, we see our competition also building networks in the same areas, which is not always that optimal. If you think about it, if you have multiple networks in the same area, you're basically overbuilding. So it's also trying to find strategies that allow us to have the best network in place for Belgium without spending a fortune in building that.

Sarah - 00:06:01: Yeah.

Steven - 00:06:02: All whilst, making sure that we have our operations under control because we cannot just focus on building that one network. We have our current assets also that we need to maintain and our current customers that we need to maintain. So that long term, yes. And at the same time, making sure our existing, our business continuity is there in place.

Sarah - 00:06:23: Yeah. Is it, would it be fair for me to, I guess, summarize in thinking that within the center of excellence, to me, it would make sense that your focus would be short and midterm? Because you're working to ensure that excellence and that focus on the strategy versus really looking to what's next. Like you're going where the company is going next once that's incorporated into that up to five-year timeline.

Steven - 00:06:53: Yeah.

Sarah - 00:06:53: Does that make sense what I'm saying?

Steven - 00:06:55: It does. And maybe... I think kind of explain what my team is doing.

Sarah - 00:07:01: Yeah.

Steven - 00:07:01: What our role is in the company. I already told you that we are trying to understand how we should be doing field service, how we are actually doing. But what I didn't say is where are we positioned in the organization? We are kind of a team between the actual operational teams doing the actual work on the field. Between our internal project teams, our delivery teams, and also kind of, if you will, the outside world. What we are always trying to do is to best support those stakeholders, if I may call them like that. The operational teams will also come to me with their short-term day-to-day challenges. They will say, we want to be better at this kind of activity. And they will look to me to say, how can you help me solve this problem? But at the same time, We have so many projects ongoing that are on the mid-long term that often will... Change or improve or simplify our business processes. Without always having the knowledge of what will this mean or how will this create collateral damage maybe somewhere else. And this is where we are as kind of advisors.

Sarah - 00:08:22: Yeah.

Steven - 00:08:22: And say, be careful because if you touch this part of the process, you will hit something else over there. And when we finally have found the process we want to change or want to implement, it's making sure we get those things implemented and that it's my team interacting with the IT teams to make the necessary changes to the systems if necessary and making sure our operational teams have what they know to do their job.

Sarah - 00:08:48: Yeah.

Steven - 00:08:49: So we are really in between those.

Sarah - 00:08:52: Yeah. And this position you're in between the business and IT, right? This is sort of like... A long history relationship between the two, who owns the power, who makes the decisions, who knows best what the company needs, et cetera, et cetera. So I can understand the value of having a function like the Center of Excellence that... Sits in between those and is responsible for... Not only in some ways mediating, but also really determining what is the best, considering everyone's needs. And like you said, the context of what's going on in the rest of the business. So. What would you say in your situation, you're kind of serving as the function to be that bridge? In a lot of organizations, they're trying to figure out what that relationship should look like between the two functions. And I guess... Whichever model you're using, like, do you have thoughts or advice on what makes that working relationship a more positive one? Or what are the big challenges to avoid to kind of eliminate that friction that I think... You hear about and has existed for a long time.

Steven - 00:10:04: I sometimes joke to my teams and my internal stakeholders saying that we are always between a rock and a hard place. Because to the operational teams, we are often too theoretic. Because we approach the problem from a process theoretical point of view, but we are not actually operational people. So they will say, what do you really know about field service, right? And linked to that challenge, we will sometimes be presented with a solution rather than a requirement. Or a problem state. Operational teams will come to me and say, this is my problem. This is what I want as a solution.

Sarah - 00:10:42: Yeah.

Steven - 00:10:43: So the first thing. We will always try to do. Is to understand the underlying need. So we won't give. Directly into that solution proposal, we will always ask, why do you want this? What is your underlying requirement? What do you really want to solve? What is actually your problem? So we can have that conversation and try to flush out the actual business requirement. From there, we can take it to a potential solution. We were talking before about the complexity in all of this. And we also are facing that complexity where we always want the solution for every type of scenario. We hardly ever want to say no to anything. This means that... In terms of finding standard solutions or generic solutions, it's often a challenge because not everything fits with one generic approach. You always will get exceptions or you always will get variations or deviations on your ideal process. To serve that one particular case that only happens from every now and then. So this is one challenge I'm constantly facing that discussion with our operational teams. Always trying to find the best way of solving a problem without necessarily going to a new solution. And towards the IT teams, it's kind of the same. We are helping our business teams trying to figure out solutions to their needs without necessarily going to new stuff or new developments or customizations, if I can use that word. I have a lot of discussions also with my IT colleagues, trying to find the best way to solve or to turn the requirements around into workable solutions. And we need to be there always to inject that business context and explain to them why we need to do certain ways. And then to take that solution back to our operational. So we always kind of like in between these two worlds. And it is interesting and challenging at the same time.

Sarah - 00:12:56: Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like a top spot to be in sometimes.

Steven - 00:13:00: I would say it's an interesting spot to be in.

Sarah - 00:13:02: Yeah.

Steven - 00:13:02: A very dynamic spot to be in.

Sarah - 00:13:04: Yeah.

Steven - 00:13:04: It's challenging and interesting. The skills, I think, that you need to be in that position is not only hard skills that you need, you also need decent soft skills to be able to deal with that ambiguity, to flush out that conversation. And also often... Go into dialogue and say, often for the first time, no to the initial proposal and really engage in that conversation. So dealing with ambiguity is really a must in our case.

Sarah - 00:13:33: But I think to your point, one of the things you said that I took note of is seeking first to understand, right? So I think when you do that, it earns you the right then to push back, right? If you, I think... Being in the position you're in, you would have a much harder time if you weren't genuinely looking to understand the root need first, and then saying maybe no to the initial suggestion. Even if you already know that initial suggestion is not ultimately what's going to work. That idea of just shutting someone down before hearing them out and fully understanding what it is that they need. I mean, that is a very important communication skill, right, in this whole thing. So you mentioned. That obviously technology plays a huge role in this. Ongoing continuum of field service excellence, right? But you also mentioned understanding in each given situation if there really is a need or a requirement for something new or if there is an existing solution that can be leveraged in some way to solve that problem or meet that need. How do you determine that? And then I would also imagine that at any given time, there's different priorities, different needs, different issues at play. So how do you prioritize? The investment.

Steven - 00:14:59: Time is always the number one challenge, especially when you're dealing with the operational teams. They want the solution right here, right now. They don't want to wait for next month or next three months. They want something now. So I think if you have the possibility to leverage something existing, you should. They will always be happy. It might also be that the early suggestion is a good one and it can just rapidly go to an implementation. So that's the thing. Like if there is nothing that can be leveraged to fulfill the request that we have to go to something new, the prioritization aspect is really important because there will always be more requests than there are resources to fulfill those requests. So what works for me is really to understand the company's priorities. Where do we want to land in the end?

Sarah - 00:15:53: Right.

Steven - 00:15:54: And if I can relate that request to one of those objectives or key priority, it will give me more possibility to go and find a sponsor or somebody with resources to fulfill that need.

Sarah - 00:16:08: Yeah. And that's also understanding those priorities then is also where the long-term in addition to the short-term and the mid-term comes into play, right? Because you want to be able to keep that in mind.

Steven - 00:16:17: Exactly. And what I find very positive about Proximus is that We have a very transparent way of communicating those objectives and those key results to actually all the employees. Every three months, there is a big info session that's done to make sure that everybody is kind of aligned to what we are hoping to achieve in five years from now, in one year from now, three months from now. So we can use that in our day-to-day sessions. It is a good tool to have. It's not always... The answer my internal stakeholder is hoping to get, especially when there is a note coming from the guys.

Sarah - 00:16:57: I have to give you credit because you remembered the second question and you just went right into it. So it was great. So we talked a little bit about the technology piece. I want to talk about process optimization. Yeah. Right. And how that factors into the quest for field service excellence. Yeah. So how do you look at that? How often do you look at that? How do you determine maybe when someone's coming to you with a problem? Okay, well. Is this problem because we need a new system or is it because the process is no longer effective for the way the business has changed, et cetera?

Steven - 00:17:33: My point of view and point of view shared by many of my colleagues, but not all, I have to be transparent in that, is that process documentation is... Important. I would say even very important. And as Proxmos, we are sometimes very tool oriented. We have a problem, we need a solution, it's a tool and that will get the problem solved. And for every scenario, there is some solution we can put in place. What we have seen as a result of that is that we have a standard process and a lot of deviations and variations on that standard process. Which is understandable if you have a broad business and a fast moving business, you get those. But it's equally important to have those on file. So you can always find ways to simplify and to go to that standardization of processes. Too many deviations and too many variations is ultimately not good, but there's great complexity in your overall company. So we are putting in quite some time. Documenting the processes. It helps to understand how we are supposed to be doing field service in my case. We can leverage also technology like process mining to actually see how it is really happening.

Sarah - 00:19:00: Right.

Steven - 00:19:01: To from there flush out the deviations and the variations.

Sarah - 00:19:04: Mm-hmm.

Steven - 00:19:05: And this will allow us to start building actions to... Those deviations out and move more to standardization.

Sarah - 00:19:13: Yeah.

Steven - 00:19:13: So it's really important to have that. It creates a knowledge base also that we can use in a lot of projects.

Sarah - 00:19:21: Yeah.

Steven - 00:19:22: Knowledge is often in the heads of people. Not everybody is always available to help a project. So having those informations on record, on file really helps to... Deal with a lot of stuff at the same time.

Sarah - 00:19:38: Yeah. I think it's interesting thinking about process optimization, like to question ourselves on how often are we reflecting on that? And is it often enough given the dynamic landscape of service that we are in today, right? Because I think historically, let's just say excellence, which is always going to be subjective to some degree, right? It was... A pretty consistent formula in service, right? So even if you weren't necessarily hitting the target and achieving it, for the most part, knew what needed to be done and you could kind of pinpoint what needed to change to get there. I think today with changing customer expectations, the rapidly evolving pace and increasing sophistication in technology, the ability within technology to be more agile in how you change what service delivery looks like or what the customer value proposition is or any number of things, right? I just think it's something we need to be thinking about in terms of. Making sure that we're doing that reflection process enough, often enough to make sure that we're not trying to hold ourselves to a process that was optimized and standardized three years ago. And in three years time, I mean, a lot has changed, right? Part of this reminds me, the conversation that was on the podcast last week was with, or maybe the week before, a gentleman, Ben Williams from 3D Systems. And when we were talking to kind of come up with his podcast topic. We landed on this theme of being brilliant on the basics. Okay. So the theme in and of itself, easy to understand. You're talking about like. Building foundational strengths. What got really interesting in our conversation, though, was the distinction for him and my reflection of that in our conversation of the difference between being brilliant on the basics versus mastering the basics, because we were basically talking about how in service today, mastery is probably a outdated term because things are changing too fast to master a basic. There's categories of basics that you know you need to be brilliant on, and that's his point, whether it's customer communication or strategic alignment or process optimization. But this idea and something you said at the beginning of going back to continuous. Reflection, continuous analysis, continuous improvement, because The targets are constantly shifting. So it's an interesting, interesting world we're living in today. Absolutely. So we talked a little bit, Steven, about the importance of applying a lens of simplification, both on the process and on the technology side. Can you talk a bit about that?

Steven - 00:22:36: Yeah. I think. Not only as Proxmox as a company in general, we kind of like to over-complexify certain situations. And we want to kind of say yes to every situation. Just create complexity. And if you drag that along with you, get a bunch of stuff that you have in your organization, in your processes, in your IT system that are very complicated. Maintaining that is costly, especially when you're moving from one big system to another, that transformation, dragging all that complexity with you, that ultimately becomes really a burden. So I think getting that simplification into your culture is an interesting thing because it will allow you to finally get rid of some of that legacy complexity that you have been pulling along with you for some time. I'm sure everybody can think of many use cases that you say, yeah, we have built this because maybe one day, exceptionally, we might need this because this and that. But how often is it that you actually need it and how? Big of a problem would it be if you were to met with that situation with a more standard or simple approach?

Sarah - 00:23:56: Yeah.

Steven - 00:23:57: And often just by asking yourself that question, is there a simpler way to approach this? You might finally introduce some optimization level simplification in your business.

Sarah - 00:24:09: Yeah.

Steven - 00:24:10: And it's the same for business processes. And also the same for IT implementations of them. Sometimes we implement things, too complicated, putting pieces of the logic in multiple systems and then linking that together through integrations, which ultimately works, but then when you scale up, you see that, okay, performance-wise, you're not meeting the standards.

Sarah - 00:24:35: Yeah.

Steven - 00:24:36: So you have to revisit that anyway. And often it's because during that engineering process, We often don't ask ourselves, can we do this in a simpler, straightforward way?

Sarah - 00:24:48: Right. Yeah, I love that point. And I'm thinking like. In the what's next world that we're living in, people are very focused on adding. Not thinking about, okay, so maybe we do need to add something here, a tool, what have you, but Also, what could we maybe take away? What could we maybe remove? In this process, right? And I think, you know, from a technology standpoint, you get to a point where you've compiled so much stuff, it can be a nightmare. I think though, also from a process standpoint, this is where sometimes people get stuck because it's working, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's... The best way or the best way for where the business is going versus where the business has been, right? So I really like this idea of... You know, not only thinking about what's next and what more do we need to do, but also where are we and what could we eliminate? What could we remove? How could we streamline this? This also gets incredibly important when you think about the customer journey, right? Because once you start to put yourself in the minds of the customer and think about if we're adding this and adding that, are we creating friction points or potential friction points? Or are we making things easier for everyone involved? So I think that's a really good lens to think through. So we've talked about the fact that in a lot of ways, excellence is certainly a moving target. You're continuously looking at what needs to change, where do we need to optimize, where do we need to add, et cetera, where do we need to streamline? What? Are you doing in terms of managing all of that change?

Steven - 00:26:30: Trying to find-

Sarah - 00:26:32: Trying to survive.

Steven - 00:26:33: Trying to survive. That's for sure. Trying to survive. Now the challenge is time.

Sarah - 00:26:37: Yeah.

Steven - 00:26:38: Because you have all these objectives, everything you want to do. There just isn't enough time to do everything. So you really have to pick your battles time to time. What I'm trying to tell my team also is always to keep that in the back of your minds. If you see opportunities to simplify, just go for it. And always ask that question. In every interaction you have, always ask that question. Can we do it simpler? Can we do it easier? And the more early you top the question, the higher I think the chances are that you will get it clean and lean first time, right?

Sarah - 00:27:13: Yeah.

Steven - 00:27:14: And that's sometimes where I think the agile way of working is sometimes working against us because with agile, it's like getting stuff out quickly. Try fast, fail fast.

Sarah - 00:27:25: Yeah.

Steven - 00:27:25: But you don't spend enough time, in my opinion, on thinking about the next run. Or there is no time. You just want to get it out very quickly. And sometimes you end up... Putting quick and dirty solution in production that is there to stay for a long, long time. Because we doing that, there is often no time or no resources to make it better. We often have the discussion with the IT teams also have a huge backlog of technical depth that they just can't work through because there is always, like you say, the next thing, the next thing, the next thing. So. That's what I'm trying to achieve.

Sarah - 00:28:04: Yeah.

Steven - 00:28:04: No, always easy, but If I need to take a priority point, It's It would be that.

Sarah - 00:28:12: Yeah.

Steven - 00:28:13: Making sure we get the simplification dialogue as going as soon as possible, as early as possible.

Sarah - 00:28:18: Yeah. I think there's two things that you've said in this session that I think are very relevant to this point. And maybe I'm stating the obvious. I mean, I've probably been guilty of that as much as asking two questions at once, but I do so because I think there are points that are worth reflecting on, right? There's two things you've said that I think... Have an incredible impact on an organization's appetite for change. One is you are seeking to understand. So just keeping that lens in mind of you're not just pushing change or orders to people, you are taking the time to listen. Doesn't mean you're going to give them the answer they want to hear. It doesn't necessarily change the outcome. What it does, though, is make them feel respected and appreciated and that they have a voice. And I think in change management, that's crucial. The second thing you stated is that Proximus is very transparent. And I think, again, more of a communication aspect, but When you're in a... Landscape of continuous and rapid change. Just cutting the BS and just being honest with people, being direct with people, explaining the why, listening to feedback, but also just not... Painting pictures, not telling stories, just being real, I think also helps a lot. So those are two things that you've mentioned that I think probably play a big role in the organization's ability to... Put up with that continuous change. Because it's a lot for everyone. So. You talked a little bit, when we think about looking ahead to the future, right? You talked about the pressure of time, right? And this sort of, there's never enough time. You can't get to everything you need to get to. That's a reality for everyone. But how do you figure out how to take the step back? To be intentional in the decisions you're making and not just buckle under the pressure of just race, race, race, and get caught in only the short term, not the midterm and the long term.

Steven - 00:30:32: Now, well, it kind of links back to that story about objectives and key results and having that few, unfortunately you won't win them all. Sometimes you have to just make the hard choice and say, okay, I don't really have an alternative now, so I will let this one slide. It's nicking. The right decision at the right time, it's not always easy because there's so many things that are coming in, as you say. For me, the North Star keeps on being those objectives of those key results, as always is a good anchor point for me.

Sarah - 00:31:05: Yeah, I guess that works in an organization where the objectives are not only short-sighted.

Steven - 00:31:10: They're not only short-sighted.

Sarah - 00:31:12: And I say that because there are leaders that are in situations where maybe that framing wouldn't work as well because there isn't enough mid and long-term thinking at the levels that are setting the objectives. And then that can become a challenge as well. But as long as you feel like the objectives are well-balanced. Then you're right. That gives you sort of the way to look at things and make sure, okay, I could rush into this decision, but am I sacrificing this or this in doing so?

Steven - 00:31:43: What I'm always trying to tell my team also to develop as a skill is the ability to sometimes let go. Because in general, I'm tracking about 50, 60 initiatives that have an impact on the domain. I'm kind of responsible for the skill service domain. And it will be impossible for my team to be involved in every single one of them. They will not all go at the same time, but even 10, 15 initiatives at the same time, you'll be able to manage. So having that ability to sometimes say, okay, I'm going to let this one slide and I'll pick it up in a later phase is a very good skill to have. Because you can't control them all.

Sarah - 00:32:24: Yeah. I struggle with that.

Steven - 00:32:26: Yeah.

Sarah - 00:32:26: Yeah.

Steven - 00:32:27: I struggle with that as well.

Sarah - 00:32:28: Like, I like to think like, no, no, I can do it all. Trust me.

Steven - 00:32:31: I won't be involved at all.

Sarah - 00:32:33: Ged's smiling because he knows.

Steven - 00:32:34: Exactly.

Sarah - 00:32:35: Yeah.

Steven - 00:32:35: It's a skill I always need to develop myself.

Sarah - 00:32:37: But you're absolutely right. Yeah.

Steven - 00:32:38: The ability to let it go, let it slide and say, I will pick it up when I have time in some near future or not.

Sarah - 00:32:46: You'll pick it up when it is the most important thing to pick up. If it is the most important thing to pick up. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Any other thoughts or advice on this quest of continuous improvement to achieving field service excellence?

Steven - 00:33:02: Well, I think having the organization in place to make sure your documentation is as up to date as possible will really help you to scale up if needed and to always have something you can go back to if you don't have directly the answer. That's one. I think very interesting today to have as an ability or a capability is measuring the implementation of your processes, how healthy are your processes, and with today's capabilities you have, I think all that you need from a technological perspective to use the data in your organization to measure how healthy your processes are working. And this is a very good tool to have as a team such as mine, which is basically an advisory team, to factualize some of the incoming requests or concerns. Yeah. And this is a good thing to have because often what I have seen is that sometimes the problem is not as bad as it appears to be.

Sarah - 00:34:05: Right.

Steven - 00:34:05: And it can allow you to sometimes quickly send back a request just by factualizing the incoming concern. So if you have that possibility to invest in this measuring, process mining, factualization of your theory, that's really a good thing to have.

Sarah - 00:34:25: Yeah, that makes sense. And I appreciate you coming and sharing with us today and joining us live at IFS Unleashed. So it was a pleasure.

Steven - 00:34:35: Thank you.

Sarah - 00:34:35: Thank you for being here.

Steven - 00:34:36: Thank you very much.

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