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September 11, 2024 | 31 Mins Read

Reflecting on a 35+ Year Career in Field Service: What’s Changed, What Hasn’t, and Where Are We Headed Next?

September 11, 2024 | 31 Mins Read

Reflecting on a 35+ Year Career in Field Service: What’s Changed, What Hasn’t, and Where Are We Headed Next?

Episode 282

In this episode of the Unscripted Podcast, host Sarah Nicastro welcomes Tim Spencer, VP for North American Operations at Interblock Gaming, to reflect on what’s changed (or not) related to leadership, technology, talent, and customer-centricity over his 35+ year career.

Tim has a wealth of experience from his roles at BUNN, Scientific Games, WMS Gaming, and as an Independent Consultant. He specializes in field and customer services, manufacturing and printing operations, sales management, and executive leadership.

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Episode Highlights:

Tim - 00:00:00: So I would say never stop learning and drawing. And then part of that learning and drawing, look for ways to innovate and then iterate. Another one that I would share, I think, is always share and grow other people. Share what you know and grow others. You can't keep it all in. It's not fair, not the right thing to do. And as we learn through our journey of life, it's up to us to help others learn and grow. So find ways to mentor and help other people be successful and grow in their lives and careers.

Sarah - 00:00:38: Welcome to the UNSCRIPTED podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today, I'm excited to welcome a friend to take a look back at a 35-plus-year career in field service. Tim Spencer is here, and we're going to talk about what has changed in his career, what hasn't, where things are headed, and a bunch of other great things. So, if you don't know Tim, Tim Spencer is currently the vice president of North American operations at Interblock Gaming. Before Interblock, he was with BUNN, Scientific Games, WMS Gaming, ACCO Brands, and Taylor. I don't know if I missed anything. If I did, you can fill everyone in. Tim and I have known each other for a number of years, and we share the same wedding anniversary. So, Tim and his wife and my husband and I were married not on the same day and year, but the same day. And coincidentally, that day often falls during the service councils annual symposium. So, Tim and I have spent an anniversary or two together instead of with our spouses when we were attending that conference. Anyway, Tim, thank you for being here. Really excited for our conversation today.

Tim - 00:02:07: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. You're kind with a 35-year career thing. It's a big plus on that 35-year.

Sarah - 00:02:14: So before we get into it all, what would you want to tell everyone about yourself?

Tim - 00:02:19: You did a great job of the introduction. You know, I started my career as what they call a manufacturing management trainee back in the day. And the objective was to just learn everything you could about manufacturing operations company. It was fun. I got to spend time in every function. Some not really very practical, but every single function of the operations. With the end goal of getting to a manufacturing leadership executive role, which I accomplished, I got to be a plant manager, and then I'm the manager of many plants. And then I had kind of the career-altering opportunity to manage kind of the business unit as a general manager. Within that business unit was a service organization. And that was my first taste of what service looks like and feels like. And I liked it. My dad was in sales all his career. I thought, man, I'm not doing that.

Sarah - 00:03:11: And he asked?

Tim - 00:03:12: No. Sounded terrible, right? To be scrounging for-

Sarah - 00:03:15: Permission.

Tim - 00:03:15: Permission and hitting codes and objectives. And as it turns out, we all end up doing that anyway. But I did enjoy the interaction with customers and the opportunity to learn about their problems and try and solve, I think that's correct. That's what I really enjoyed and kind of the back half of my career is, as we say, almost our service executive. So. it's been a fun ride and moved all over the country, spent a little time in Canada. My wife and I are on our 14th move. And it's been fun. It's been an adventure. Enjoying every minute of it.

Sarah - 00:03:44: Well, that's good that you've enjoyed every minute of it. And I think a lot of that has to do with mindset. So you took that general manager role and it had a service component. And looking back on that time, what would you say the world of service looked like then? So what I want to kind of get to are what strikes you as the biggest differences between your first introduction to the service world and today? And what are some of the constants?

Tim - 00:04:17: Good question, you know, it's interesting the most obvious one is technology you know, you always, you think about your grandparents and you go man, I wonder what changes they saw in technology over time. Well, I'm now one of those grandparents. And I can think back on a time when there was no cell phones, you're lucky if you had a pager, that was the coolest technology of the time. I was cool to finally get a pager where my babysitter could now call me, if there's a problem. I remember getting my first pc, the thing was giant, it was you know this big this took up the entire desk, and that was in 1996. I got my first pc that fit on my desk, I can remember the first handheld device, you and I shared some fun with that, back in 2005.

Sarah - 00:04:58: I'm glad you, um, remember the year. So for anyone listening that is newer to me, than my background in this space. Before I ran future field service and hosted this podcast, I was the editor-in-chief of a print publication. Which was no known as field technologies, but actually even before that, known as Integrated Solutions Magazine. And way back, we did a story on the introduction of those handheld devices into your organization. So sorry to to cut you off there, but people wondered what the heck are we talking about, I did have a life in print magazines, before this one.

Tim - 00:05:37: Back when print was all there was, right?

Sarah - 00:05:39: Yeah.

Tim - 00:05:40: You know, at the time, that was the cool thing. In fact, it made a really cool magazine article to talk about this innovative launch of a handheld device that had big real estate on the screen and where you could use it, touch technology in the field for your technicians. You know, it was recognized by Gartner Group and Aberdeen and Verizon all gave us awards for that particular innovation. Now you think, that was nothing compared to where technology is today. So that's certainly one of the biggest changes is, you know, this technology has really evolved. I can remember going to trade show events in our service space and all you would see is, you know, there'd be a lot of people like FedEx and UPS. Toshiba would be there with their hardened laptop devices. Verizon would be there. But no software providers. And now you can't find a hardware provider at these kinds of events. And they're all software providers. It's kind of as an indicator, I think, of where we are and where we're headed. Which is solutions for our space that help us work faster, smarter, easier. It's not hardening a device that we already had. It's changing the world by virtue of some software innovation or tool that makes our lives different. I think that's one of the biggest things. Some of the things that never change, I think, are kind of the way you do business. For example, one of the keys to success, customers and service base is communication. Always has been. Always will be. We won't ever change. I found that in my career that every challenge I ever had with a customer was resolved one of two ways. Either by better-understanding expectations or by better communicating. Or both. Sometimes. So if I learned what they expected and they learned what I could deliver, we aligned those expectations. Generally, we had a good relationship. If the relationship came off the rails, it was because we didn't spend the time to do that. So that's something that's forever been, I think, a secret sauce for service and has it changed.

Sarah - 00:07:38: And that relationship is absolutely paramount to what service has become, as well. Because if I can kind of just reflect on, you know, one of the biggest changes I've witnessed in my time covering this space is the shift in perception of service of companies. From an afterthought, a necessary evil, a cost center, to a potential profit center, a differentiator, part of the brand experience. And it's because of that relationship and recognizing what all that relationship can mean. And I think those relationships are what build loyalty. But also what's always interesting to me is how much shortcomings or reality or turbulence those relationships can withstand when they're solid. Right? Meaning failures or failures, or parts that you can't get, or whatever it is that is going to happen because things happen. When you've done a good job at that communication piece and you have that relationship to fall back on, it doesn't have nearly the impact as if you're treating your customers in that transactional manner, and you're not focusing on that element. So I really like that point. I think it's, like you said, it hasn't changed. It will never change. And I'm sure we'll talk about this a bit. But all of this talk of AI, I say great. To the extent it can help ease the burden of service and other professionals and allow them to do their jobs more effectively, then I'm all for it. But it's not going to replace those people. Like it's a people business. People do business with people, not robots. So relationships and communication are constant. Okay. Any other observations?

Tim - 00:09:28: And just on the communication piece, you know, the key there really is just timeliness and candor. Again, I've never had a customer, well, rarely had a customer who said, I hate the bad news you're giving me. Usually what they say is, why didn't you tell me sooner? Maybe could have reacted. We could have worked something out. We could have done something differently. Timely and honest communication, I think, is key. You mentioned something, too, that's not constant, that has changed, and that is the evolution of the role of service in companies, right? So I mentioned that I kind of cut my teeth in the manufacturing side of the business. You know, product companies for a long time made all their money on the product, skinny margins, gave away the service. And most companies now have figured out that the inverse is actually the key to success, right? Maybe even give away their razor in order to sell the razor blades. The margin opportunities in service, the opportunity to really continue with a revenue model that's repetitive, that's on the service side. So that's something that's changed a lot over the many, many years that I've been slugging away at it.

Sarah - 00:10:33: Any others that come to mind?

Tim - 00:10:35: Yeah, a lot of things have changed and stayed the same. You know, you and I talked a little bit before this, and one of the things you asked me about was leadership styles. Mm-hmm. And what you want to go there next. But I thought about this a lot, and I thought, you know what? I don't think leadership styles have changed or evolved. I thought, and I thought, and I thought, and then finally I said, well, maybe they have.

Sarah - 00:10:57: Okay. Actually. So tell me what you think.

Tim - 00:10:59: Yeah, so the things that haven't changed relative to how we got a lead, I think, are things like fairness and equity, honesty. And one I'll throw out there that many people might not agree with, but I really love, which is inclusiveness. I've never been the smartest guy in the room. I've never been the expert, but I know where to find those people, tap into their experience and knowledge, and have them be a part of the solution. Not only do I get a better solution, but I get a team that's excited to participate. So I think that leadership style never changes. What I came to think about that might be a change is the ability to kind of adapt your style from what it used to be a long time ago to what I think it ought to be now. Let me give you a couple examples. So I think it used to be, back in my early years, a very command and control kind of leadership. I remember my first executive encounter. I was a supervisor at a plant. I'm a global executive manufacturing visitor at a plant. And he said, I don't get ulcers. I give them. Wow. Okay. That's aggressive. And throughout kind of the early years of my career, I had a lot of leaders like that, right, that would say, you know, you're not mean enough. You're not tough enough. You're not kicking butts. You know, I even had one leader who told me, he says, you know, I'm going to be the happiest guy if I ever hear that Tim Spencer is walking down the halls of the office and kicking rear ends and taking names. I told him that. I said, well, that's not going to happen.

Sarah - 00:12:30: You should be waiting a long time.

Tim - 00:12:32: Because that's never been my style. And I think that finally that style has found its home, I think, in our current environment, employment environment, our work environment, our leadership environment. It's okay to have a little bit softer, gentler approach to leadership. It doesn't mean that you aren't still tough, that you don't follow guidelines, metrics, and principles to hold people accountable. But it does mean that you can. You can still find joy in the process. You can have some camaraderie and good spirit and mentorship and, you know, an approach to leadership that understands and appreciates that your people have lives. I've had a lot of leaders in the past who've said, you know, on a Friday, I need this Monday morning at 7 o'clock. And, you know, people work all weekend. It's like a way to get whatever it is to another desk at 7 o'clock , and they don't look at it until Tuesday. If we think about our employees' environment, we can adapt and change ourselves to make it a much better, sweeter work environment for them. And a place that they'll want to come back to the next day and a place they'll want to maybe work harder for. There's some recognition of the fact that they have lives. They don't need to work every weekend necessarily. You know, when they have to, they'll be willing to if we don't put unnecessary and unreasonable demands on them.

Sarah - 00:13:49: Okay, so I have a few reflections. So first of all, I love that you thought about your initial response to that prompt and thought, nothing's changed, what's she talking about? And then kind of reflected a bit. So I think after hearing everything you just said, and I was listening intently, I think your approach hasn't changed. Because you were always leading in a way where you're humble. You just said, I've never been the smartest person in the room. I'm not the expert. I am able to bring talented people together to achieve an end. There are a lot of leaders that don't have that attitude. They fancy themselves being the smartest person or the person in charge or in control, right? And just the empathy and the appreciation. The appreciation for humanity and the fact that everyone is a human being, whether you are the CEO of the company or on the janitorial staff, and everyone's life matters and everyone has lives that matter, and you have an appreciation for that. So what I see is more people taking that approach and less and less and less people of the old school, they won't give me an ulcer, I'll give them an ulcer mentality. I think it's a very, it has nothing to do with age, because you're evidence of the fact that you've held the same beliefs your entire career, right? You didn't just land here in the last five years and say, you know what? It's not that, but it is very much, I think, a dying mentality. Now, I think there's a number of factors, though, that I kind of want to touch on a bit. One is, I think, to some degree, it is who you are. To some degree, people just have personalities, they have traits, they have experiences that shape them. Some people are more apt to want to find the good in people and want to work well as a team, and others are more apt to be ego-driven and things like that, right? I do think that organizationally, particularly in service, oftentimes you have leaders that are rewarded for strong, individual contribution that are promoted and promoted and promoted. And I think while that isn't inherently bad, we have not reflected as much as we need to on whether or not they are actually capable of and interested in being leaders rather than just being managers or supervisors. The other thing, though, is I think there is an element of change that has been prompted by, I think, the way the role has evolved. So in a landscape where service is a cost center, it's an afterthought. It doesn't mean that I don't think leaders should be people-centric or focus on the humanity, but it was more of a command-and-control environment, right? It was, here's what you need to do. You need to do it efficiently. This is how you do it, period. Now we're in an environment, and we can talk next about new talent and bringing new talent into the space. We're in an environment where we want people to have more of a sense of ownership and be more empowered to kind of bring themselves to work and build those relationships, et cetera, et cetera. And you're not going to get that type of talent with a command and control style because it doesn't mesh well, right? Like you're not going to have someone come in who's creative and innovative and maybe some of the newer things people are looking for and then be micromanaged by someone, and stay around, right? That being said, I think this also, and one of the ways that I want to compliment you, and one of the things I want to point out to people is looking through this list here that I wrote of the companies that you've worked for, I don't know them all well, but I am going to guess that they are all quite balance sheet driven, and all companies are to some extent. I'm just saying, in the manufacturing space particularly, a lot are more so, right? When you get into like, well, we should treat people the way Google treat people, and I don't even know if that's a relevant example today, but you know where I'm getting at. There's these more innovative, newer startup type mentality companies where like the culture's new and everything's people-centric. Those are not the companies you've come from, but you have still found a way to strike a balance between, you know, meeting the objectives of the organization and creating an employee experience that honors people and their talents and their skills and what they want out of their careers and have allowed them to find some joy in the work that they're doing. That is no small feat, but I think people should hear that and they should understand that one, both things are possible. And two, even if we have leaders listening who are in organizations that they feel don't get it, meaning they're not focused on the way that creating a better employee experience will ultimately drive better outcomes, even if not in the next days, you can still be successful at achieving that balance. So I just wanted to point that out. I do think that there is a growing understanding among companies of that correlation, which is part of this movement. I think that like, they're very interconnected. Company cultures are improving both because the talent is demanding they do, but also because there's a better understanding that, well, geez, maybe if we just treat people well, they will do the work we want them to do, right? And that's allowing leaders to be under less pressure to where they don't have to take the same command and control approach. They can take the more empathetic approach and think about how to build teams that, you know, complement each other and work well together, et cetera, et cetera. But to me, this is one of the most interesting shifts that I've witnessed. And I think it's interesting to hear your perspective because I think largely your initial response came from the fact that you yourself, have had the same beliefs and the same mentality the whole way through. But I think there's a lot going on around that, that is evolving in a positive way.

Tim - 00:20:38: Yeah, no, I think you're right. In today's environment, things have flipped completely the opposite, right? So early in my career, tons of workers, very few jobs. Now it's tons of jobs, very few workers. And you're forced to behave a little bit differently. But even back in the time when it was easier to find workers, you still wanted to create an environment where they wanted to come to work. I'm reminded of one of the first roles I had in bona fide field service. It was we were looking at lives that our field service technicians were living. And, you know, it was a lot of road time, a lot of time in the band, a lot of fast food. In our case, a lot of hotel time, too. A lot of time away from family, very isolated. And we start thinking about, well, what can I change there? And one of the things that caused us to change was one of our technicians passed away. I mean, on the job, in a hotel, and we didn't even know where he was. And so we started to look for ways to just improve their health, if nothing else. And their overall safety. And that was back in a time when, you know, we didn't have to. But it was the right thing. Try and help them just have a better, healthier lifestyle. So we published kind of the health thought of the month, you know, to get them thinking about their health a little bit better. We sent them some things that they could do in their hotel room to exercise. Sent them some better eating ideas. Put GPS devices in the vehicles, not because we wanted to track their every move, but because we wanted to know where they were in case something happened. So we could send the rescues. But today, now I have more of a need to do the right thing. In fact, then it was the right thing. Now you need to do the right thing in order to attract the workers that you need. And if you're not thinking creatively about ways to make their work-life balance better or to appeal to whatever it is that floats their boat, someone else who's more innovative is going to get the talent. You're either going to not get enough people or you'll get the less talented. So I think innovation relative to our approach to work, our approach to our people, our approach to hiring and retention, innovation is the key. You've got to be thoughtful. You've got to think outside the box. You've got to be smarter than the other guy who's recruiting the same people. And it doesn't mean you have to do all the things that Google used to be famous for. I don't know if they still do all that stuff or not, but free meals all over the place, laundry services, and bring your dog to work or whatever. You don't have to do all that stuff, but you've got to be thoughtful about what does the employee need in their current environment and what can I do as a company leader to try and help solve for that need. The other thing that has been a bit of a realization for me, too, is the worker looks different physically, right? So back in the day, most technical service people were very blue-collar-y, mostly men. Generally, a worker with tools, mechanically oriented. You know, there's a look and a style. But the worker today looks completely different. They can be of any gender or type, any size or shape, any background. And you need to accommodate for that as well in your workforce and understand that today's worker, who's going to be really, really good, might look different than your expectations years ago.

Sarah - 00:23:45: Yeah, and probably has to, really, you know, because if you're just trying to meet the expectations of years ago, you know, there are less and less of those people around, right, that have the experience everyone was looking for, etc. Now, Tim, I do want to go back to the technology piece for a moment, okay, because, you know, we just talked about your leadership style and how maybe you were ahead of the trend in that realm. Now, I think a lot of times people might have the assumption that an older leader is not going to be innovative when it comes to keeping pace with technological change, making sure they understand the latest innovations, etc. That's something that, you know, I've heard you talk many times at conferences about and something that you've done a really good job at. So, you know, we heard you talk about your first pager, mobile phone, PC. But you didn't stop there. You just kept it moving and have kept it moving all the way along. And I know that in many of the organizations you've been with, you know, you've really not only transformed but continually transformed the operations with the use of technology. Can you just talk a little bit about what your mindset is around that? Because the tendency to resist change is human nature. We all know this. It takes intention to set that aside. And to think, okay, but what does this mean? How can we use it? And then not grow complacent in the next phase and the next phase. So, what has your mindset been around the technology piece? And do you have any advice for folks on how you've put a workflow around continual innovation when it comes to technology?

Tim - 00:25:37: I used to tell young managers that there's a difference between a manager and a leader. A manager, at least in a lousy definition of manager, a manager manages the process and doesn't change anything. They just manage the process and manage the process, manage the process, day in, day out. A leader looks for ways to change the process. And I always encourage them to be more leaders than managers. What I tried to do in my career was to always just be thinking, okay, this feels pretty good, but what am I missing? And what's next? And where's the next opportunity to change something? Because not changing is... Backward movement in life. If you're not looking to change something. You're staying put is the same as moving backwards. I didn't ever want to stay put or move backwards. So I tried to find something, always, that needed a fix. I never implemented any technology in any of my roles just for the sake of technology. I did it because I wanted to solve a business problem. I had an issue. I had to solve it. And I looked to others and experts and technology to try to figure it out. And then go grab whatever that solution was and try and implement it in my business to make it better. Then you could then innovate either on that, innovate and innovate and innovate or iterate, and or find the next business problem and go find a solution to that. And so just always being on the hunt, I guess, for the next problem to solve. Not being complacent, saying, I don't have any problems because that's stupid. I mean, everyone's got a business problem somewhere. And if they don't think they do, they have it.

Sarah - 00:27:09: They definitely do.

Tim - 00:27:11: They do and they have value.

Sarah - 00:27:12: Right.

Tim - 00:27:13: They're going to discover it eventually, or their customer will.

Sarah - 00:27:15: Yeah.

Tim - 00:27:16: Sometimes innovation can be, you know, the technology can be sexy all by itself, but and impress customers and win business. I only ever approached it from a problem-solving perspective. And then, you know, so then you might say, well, okay, I have a problem. How do I find experts to help me? So what I try to do is always be reaching out to peers wherever I could find them. I did something really crazy one time. My first time I was in the gaming industry, I reached out to every one of my competitors in my role. So service leader in each of my competitors and said, hey, I'm the service leader over here. I want to introduce myself. Are you interested at all? And check. A few of them said, oh, no way. We're competitors. We can't do that. A few of them said, yeah, that might be it. And we shared appropriate ideas with each other. Not anything that would screw up our competition with each other, but industry stuff, service stuff. And that was kind of the start for me of engaging with peers to say, here's what I'm experiencing. What are you experiencing? Do you see any cool tools? Any new innovation? And then more and more, there were other opportunities to engage with industry people, you know, at conferences or whatever. But that's how it started for me. I think as a leader, if you're not... Finding a way to reach out to other people and learn and grow by association you're missing the boat you're doing yourselves and your customers and your employees of the service if you're not finding ways to tap into the ideas and thinking of others and that's where not only ideas but connections to some of this innovative technology comes from too. They may say, I'm not using this but I heard so and so use them.

Sarah - 00:28:54: Right.

Tim - 00:28:54: Such as had great results or where.

Sarah - 00:28:57: Yeah, there's so much power in knowledge sharing. And, you know, to your point, when you reached out to those folks, you weren't sharing the blueprint for success with your competitors. It's just sharing enough that it can spark an idea or a thought that can lead to that next iteration of change and that next step forward. That's, I mean, what I've built my career off of. So I'm a firm believer in the power of that. And I was smiling because I picked up on you saying, I looked for what needed fixed next. And to me, that was very telling, even before you clarified that you were looking for the next challenge, not for the next cool thing. All too often, we see companies, you know, chase the technology and invest and invest and invest, but they're not doing the digging to figure out if they're applying it to, the biggest challenges or any challenges, right? And so I think that mentality is really important, because there's a whole lot these tools can do, especially today. I mean, it's incredible, but they all should only be used rooted in, you know, what is going to serve the business well, what challenges are your employees facing, what needs your customers have, not what's cool, what's trending, right?

Tim - 00:30:18: That's a great example, actually, of that. So think of, and I've got no criticisms of these folks, but think of your Uber experience. As a customer, do you really need to know where his little car is on the map? Or do you just need to know that he's going to be there at 2:05. You just need to know he's going to be there at

Sarah - 00:30:36: Right.

Tim - 00:30:37: And so sometimes we overshoot the target. I think the best way, if you can't find a problem on your own to go solve and figure out how to use some technology to solve the problem, go ask your customer. Say, what do you need from me in order for your business to be successful? Do you need all this cool route? You just need to know that I'm going to be there at 2:05, and have me tell you that and let you know if I'm going to be five minutes late.

Sarah - 00:31:01: Yeah.

Tim - 00:31:02: So our customers can inform where we should go hunt if we, back to what you said, have the relationships in order to be able to ask them those questions.

Sarah - 00:31:10: For sure.

Tim - 00:31:11: When I was very young in my career, I was still stuck in manufacturing. President of our company said, you know, as a manufacturing leader, you need to understand the customer. We're going to stick in sales for two years, go over to Houston, Texas, be a sales leader, and then come back into manufacturing when you've learned and understood the sales process. And I go, oh man. So first sales call ever, I go to the customer and the customer says, oh boy, another new guy. What are you going to do for me? I said, well, I don't know. What do you need? And he said, you know what? No salesperson's ever asked me that. No one's ever asked me what I needed. They always said, here's what I'm selling. And that was something I've incorporated in the whole rest of my life since then, is to ask my customers, what do you need? What do you need me to do? How can I help you grow your business? How can I change to help you be better? And that fuels then the search for the technology solution or whatever, or process change or whatever.

Sarah - 00:32:06: Yeah. And it's amazing that that's the first time they'd heard that question. But okay. So before we wrap up the technology piece, we just talked about not chasing the cool, shiny thing. But I do have to ask, I was just at Field Service East a few weeks ago, and I think every session was AI, AI, AI, AI. How do you feel about that?

Tim - 00:32:28: I don't know if everyone will agree with how I feel about it, but I'll tell you my thoughts.

Sarah - 00:32:32: Okay.

Tim - 00:32:32: So I think that as service leaders, we don't have to worry about AI. And here's why I think we don't. I think all the solution providers are going to worry about AI, so I don't have to. I think the day will come that it's going to be so ubiquitous, that it's going to be buried and hidden and part of the solution in every solution we ever touch. And it'll just be in there. I don't know, I can't think of a good example, but it'll just be part of the solution. I guess an operating system is part of a computer, right? Nobody, it might be an Apple fan or a Windows fan, but nobody really cares once you've bought it how it all works. It's just in there and it makes it work. I think AI is going to be the same way. I think the innovators and technology solution providers and all those people are going to innovate in such a way that it just becomes a part of their solution, part of our lives. And as practitioners of the business, we don't really have to worry about it unless what we build and sell needs an AI feature to our customers. But as users of the technology, I think this is going to get incorporated and I have to worry about it. That may be a really stupid view, but that's my view.

Sarah - 00:33:42: I don't disagree that that is where we'll head. I think it's interesting, you know, we've talked a little bit about some of the evolution that we've both seen, right? So I think about, you know, I don't want to name names because if they are still around and I'm saying they're irrelevant, then that would not be nice. But, you know, we talked about a lot of the big handhelds, right? And I did magazine articles on that technology and I knew the vendors and, you know, the human beings that work at those companies. But, you know, when the iPhone came out and the iPad, I mean, they were largely displaced because it became very difficult to argue the need for that level of durability unless you were in some specific industries. But then, you know, as the software evolution started, it initially was a lot of point-specific solutions that companies would have to piece together to create a overall service management solution that met its needs. Until those software providers started to make those offerings more sophisticated, where then you could get what you needed in that platform. And I think that right now, because this focus on AI and particularly Gen AI is new, you know, you have people coming to market with, we have this AI solution, we have this AI solution, we have this AI solution. But, I mean, bolting things together has its own risk and cost, et cetera. I think that, to the degree the core systems vendors that whatever company works with are innovating around AI, then I agree with your mentality that you're a lot better off getting up to speed on what does the innovation within your core solution providers look like? What's the roadmap? When's it coming? What are the use cases? And going back to your point, figuring out if there are gaps that it doesn't fill, because chances are it will. So I get that. And I think that... The biggest value in AI is to increase the level of intelligence in a lot of the digital transformation and automation companies have already put in place, right? It's really just amping it up versus starting over. Okay, Tim, so if you were to share your top three lessons learned that you think, I'm going to say either an up-and-coming service leader could benefit from hearing or someone who maybe isn't new to the space but is very beholden to the status quo, because that also can be a real thing. What lessons, what advice would you share?

Tim - 00:36:24: I think the first thing I would say is you can never stop learning and growing. So no matter where you are in your career, you might think, well, you know, this is my last job. It's the sunset of my career. I'm going to retire in X number of years. This is it for me. That's still not the time when you can stop.

Sarah - 00:36:41: And then you might come back.

Tim - 00:36:42: Yes.

Sarah - 00:36:43: And so, you can't assume it's ever really over, you know.

Tim - 00:36:49: Like somebody we know who retired.

Sarah - 00:36:50: Right, right.

Tim - 00:36:51: Yeah, that would be really great. But, yeah, I think that's key, right? And I met a fellow the other day. He showed up for a job interview. And I thought, well, this is an interesting guy. You know, you can't ask how old they are, but clearly he was in his mid-70s. Brilliant man. And had a master's degree, had two master's degrees and a PhD. And then retired for a while. But had still been studying things and came to the interview with all this information of his recent studies, queries and things. So clearly a very hungry learner. I thought, this is cool. And there was value that he can bring to me by virtue of the fact that he had continued learning and growing, even though he'd been out of pocket for a while. So I would say never stop learning and growing. And then as part of that learning and growing, look for ways to innovate and then iterate. Another one that I would share, I think, is just always share and grow other people. Share what you know and grow others. You can't keep it all in. It's not fair. Not the right thing to do. And as we learn to our journey of life, it's up to us to help others learn and grow in their journey. So find ways to mentor and help other people be successful and grow in their lives and careers. That's what I love about sometimes we get to rub shoulders in industry events. Sometimes you meet people who are very early in their career and are hungry for information and knowledge, and I'm happy to share it. So I think always share and grow others because it'll circle back. It's a forward kind of thing, particularly if you're someone crazy like me and you go retire and then go somewhere else. You might now find people who want to come where you are, who have been part of that learning, growing, and sharing experience before and want to be a part of it again. And the world's a small place. The industry is a small place. Those people might circle back. And then the last one that I would share is, you know, you and I talked about it a little bit, but I'm convinced after 35-plus years, more like 40-plus years, that a kind leader can and will prosper. And so don't think that you can't be a kind and caring leader. Don't think that you have to be the, you know, the guy that's kicking rear ends down the hallway. I know a good friend who wrote a book and is now retired. His book is called Joyous Leadership. And I think there's two messages there. One is that we need to find joy in our leadership. Other people need to find joy in our leadership, and have it not be a burden to work for us. And there's ways to do that and still accomplish the mission of the job, right? So that would be my two cents, is that I wish that some of the people 40 years ago who were telling me that my leadership style wasn't going to work were here now and I could say, aha, it worked okay.

Sarah - 00:39:38: Look. Yeah, absolutely. They're all very wise words. And I am deeply, deeply honored to have been able to have you on and have this conversation.

Tim - 00:39:50: Thank you, Sarah, for what you do for the industry to help promote these kinds of thoughts and be a thought provoker.

Sarah - 00:39:57: Yes, it's a pleasure, honestly. It's my way of continuing to learn and get different perspectives, which, you know, makes it a joy for me. But I think there's, you know, so much for others to gain from these conversations. And just how you said, you know, back before there were so many opportunities for engagement at events and things like that, how much you got out of just talking to your peers. You know, I mean, there's a lot of value in it. There's the commiseration and the sense of community and realizing, and I hear this every event we do in person, I have someone say, I didn't realize I wasn't so alone in the challenges that we have. And I always feel like that's the best feedback because people do get caught in their day-to-day and you can question, you know, are we doing something wrong? Are we behind? Are we this? You know, and then when you come together, you kind of get that relief of, okay, no, no one has it all figured out. We're all in it together and we're doing just fine. And I think that's, it's great. Well, thank you very, very much for coming on. I really appreciate the time.

Tim - 00:41:04: You bet. My pleasure.

Sarah - 00:41:05: You can find more by visiting the home of the UNSCRIPTED podcast at futureoffieldserviceref.ifs.com. The podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thank you for listening.

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Canon’s 5-Pillar Service Strategy

Episode 281

In this episode of the Unscripted Podcast, host Sarah Nicastro welcomes Andy Schneider, European Vice President of Services and Support at Canon EMEA, to share the company’s five-pillar service strategy and why the relevance of service is near and dear to his heart.

In his role, Andy's key focus is on driving growth and excellence in Canon's Digital Printing & Solutions unit by optimizing service delivery and leading cross-functional teams to consistently deliver outstanding results. Before that, Andy held senior roles at companies such as Spigraph, DICOM, Kofax, and more.

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Also, subscribe to our newsletter right here.

Episode Highlights:

[36:01] - The fourth pillar is the relevance of service, which is more than just fixing problems; it's a core driver of business success and customer loyalty. Showcasing the dynamic, high-tech nature of modern service roles offers Canon the possibility to attract top talent and inspire the next generation. As service evolves, it demands creativity, people skills, and the same level of engagement found in sales and marketing.

[07:29] - Canon's strategy is built on five key pillars, with a strong focus on solution growth. At the core, it's about shifting from transactional sales to true partnerships with customers. Instead of just selling products, Canon aims to transform its customers' businesses by aligning with their evolving needs, offering tailored support, and delivering real value. The goal is to move beyond short-term costs and focus on long-term business benefits.

[20:00] - Graphic arts is a key growth segment for Canon's production business, offering print service providers diverse applications with advanced technology. Transitioning from traditional analog to digital printing allows these businesses to enjoy lower maintenance costs, greater creative versatility, shorter and more personalized print runs, and faster production speeds. However, to fully capitalize on these benefits, Canon must invest in workforce skills, tools, and smart technologies that support this high-demand, competitive market.

[27:45] - Operational excellence is all about using the right technology, people, and skills to enhance both the customer experience and cost efficiency. By investing in remote solution tools and customer self-service options, Canon can solve issues faster and more effectively, often without needing an on-site visit. The company is also upskilling its field service engineers for remote support roles, which require new capabilities and tools, all aimed at delivering seamless and modernized customer service.

[32:17] - Sustainability is at the heart of Canon's philosophy, driving efforts to minimize environmental impact across the entire lifecycle of the company's products. From pioneering recycling solutions since the '90s to offering reconditioned devices, Canon is committed to responsible manufacturing and operational excellence. Canon also supports its customers in reducing their environmental footprint with eco-conscious print solutions, energy-efficient designs, and data-driven guidance to promote sustainable practices.

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Episode 280

In this episode of the Unscripted Podcast, host Sarah Nicastro welcomes Joe Molesky, SVP at Sodexo for a conversation about why leadership is so important in service today when it comes to attracting quality talent and creating an effective culture, how his own approach has evolved over his career, and the role mindfulness plays in his leadership today.

As a leader known for his expertise in enterprise transformation, Joe is committed to driving improvement across all areas of business. His focus lies on executing strategies that create significant value for customers. Joe's goal is to design actionable plans, build inclusive teams, optimize operations, and foster a high-performance culture centered on delivering exceptional customer value.

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Also, subscribe to our newsletter right here.

The Show Notes

Joe - 00:00:00:

The inflection point for me was seeing a really high-functioning team that I built, put them under undue stress, and actually did not achieve the results I would have expected. That's where I really had to think about it. And it goes to that the ways of working have changed. People's expectations have changed. People are more aware of themselves, right? They're more aware of how they fit into the world than we ever have. And you don't see the culture of I need to mimic leadership. You see more of a culture of people that have superpowers that want to apply those but still maintain their sense of individuality, not put on the suit, not put on the badge and become a different person for 10 hours a day. Having the respect for this is the person, these are their superpowers, that's been a big part of the change.

Sarah - 00:00:54:

Welcome to the Unscripted Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today we are going to be talking about why the future of field service depends so significantly on leadership. I'm excited to welcome to the podcast today Joe Molesky, who is the SVP at Sodexo. Joe, welcome to the podcast.

Joe - 00:01:30:

Hey, thank you for having me today. Appreciate it.

Sarah - 00:01:32:

Thanks for being here. So before we get into the topic of the day, tell everyone a little bit about yourself, anything you want to share about your background, your current role, and maybe some context on Sodexo as well.

Joe - 00:01:44:

No, just starting out with my personal background, I'm based out of the Minneapolis area. I was born and raised on the Iron Range of northern Minnesota, which I think is pretty significant. I have a family there that's very blue-collar, hardworking group of people. Luckily, I got that from my family up there. And it also exposed me early in my life even to the challenges between leadership and frontline employees, listening to the conversation that holidays, etc. The debate between leadership and union employees that were going on. And I was found it interesting. So those roots are very important to me and they still are to this day. After I left the Iron Range, I went to college, went out to Washington State for a while back to Minnesota. Fast forward to today. I'm the proud dad of a 16-year-old daughter, amazing child. And it's cool watching her grow up and getting to be a father in that way. So she's hitting her junior year. We did our first college visit recently. Which was fun to see. So on the professional side, I would say I won the job lottery right out of college and I got to work at a company called. Coldspring Granite at the time, and it's now Coldspring USA in central Minnesota. And my first role was a continuous improvement specialist. Where I was leading teams of five to 12 people two or three times a month on both business process improvements, Six Sigma, you name it, literally hundreds of projects that the reason I say I won the job lottery is I got to hone my skills around quickly getting to understand people and moving a team in a direction towards a set of goals really quickly. By 25, I was a plant manager. And a few years later, I cut my teeth in service, which we're talking about today, while at Tennant Company and working for a great mentor still to this day in Terry Diaferio. And he really taught me a lot about field service and the differences that needed to be understood there. Currently, my role at Sodexo is Senior Vice President of Operations for Corporate Services on the FM side. Most folks, when they think of Sodexo, think of soup. And that's because that's how Sodexo was founded in the late 60s in Paris, France, was on what I would call the first workplace experience innovation, which was bringing food forward to the workplace. In my role, we lead FM, so facilities management, which includes everything from painting to operating boilers. We deliver 216 distinct services to our customers in the field. And so while we do have food, a large portion of Sodexo is related to FM, both in North America and globally.

Sarah - 00:04:28:

Very good. And how long have you been with Sodexo?

Joe - 00:04:31:

I've been with Sodexo now just going on a year, just showed up a year. And it's been interesting to learn, as you know, Sodexo is a very big organization. And the different layers, understanding our leadership team and where they're going, and then translating that down into my organization and setting our path has been the first call, the first 90 days at a lot of companies, we'll call it the first nine months at Sodexo, just because it is a big business to get to understand.

Sarah - 00:04:57:

So when we were chatting about this topic, you described to me that your leadership style used to be heads down, horns up, and that that has changed significantly. So first of all, can you kind of explain what you mean by heads down, horns up? And then, you know, compare that to where you are today and some of the reasons that you knew you needed to evolve your approach.

Joe - 00:05:25:

So the head down, horns up. It's one of my, I've been using that description for years. And it actually started in my time at Coldspring where I was a CI specialist and would go out with teams and truly time after time get really good results. I even received the nickname at one point of Bulldog. And so my approach was celebrated. And it was an approach of there was no mindfulness to the team, no mindfulness to the current environment. It was, here's the productivity target, we were asked to reach. Here's the quality target. We're going to go get it. And we don't care what happens around us, the impact around us. And when I realized I needed to change, and when I actually started affecting change, were two different periods in time. There was a engineer at Coldspring that I worked with that came up to me one day and said, you really need to think about your approach. Literally his words. And I said, what do you mean? He said, when you go back for your 60 or 90 day reviews of your projects, a lot of them are backsliding. I said, yeah. And he said, it's based on your approach. And he gave me some coaching. His name was Tom Howler. I took that on, but didn't really start to actualize that for probably another 10 years. And so where I really started was in my time at a tenant company where we had a very intense transformation underway. And that translated into how I work every day. And personally, I saw a need to change. And then I saw it within my team as well. I didn't realize it, but I was living on the edge of burnout every single day of my career for years. And I was translating that to my team. I didn't have a sense of mindfulness. I didn't honestly really care where my team was at. All I cared about was hitting a result. Where I started to see the big need to change is when I... Started seeing turnover, really high-performing people struggling that were on my team, I saw a need to change. Where I really got into that is, and I'll talk more about her as we go, about five years ago, I started working with a coach in the mindfulness and meditative space really to develop myself personally. And that created a whole new view of the world for me and understanding myself first, and then being able to understand and empathize more with where my team is at. And so my leadership style has evolved to what I call mindful intensity. There's still, the intensity is still there, it still needs to be there, but it's more about when, where, and how you apply that intensity than having that switched on, being able to use your different emotions, your different levels of intensity at the right moment in time for the right purpose and the right person.

Sarah - 00:08:10:

So I have a couple questions about what you just shared. So you said Tom is the gentleman who gave you that feedback, right? And what was his role?

Joe - 00:08:19:

He was an engineer.

Sarah - 00:08:21:

So first, good on Tom for speaking up because often one of the side effects of a bulldog approach is silence. People don't want to tangle. And obviously, there's a lot of ripple effects that can come from that. So good for Tom for being brave enough to bring you that feedback. So I have two questions about it. One is, what was your initial reaction internally?

Joe - 00:08:52:

My initial reaction was one of surprise where the way he described me as kind of the head down, horns up approach. He gave me more details that people see you as arrogant and dismissive. And I saw myself as confident and driven. And I'm like, well, I see this in my one side and then I hear Tom over here. But then I took his feedback on the results and kind of went, okay, this is making sense. I can see how that could be the perspective. But at first I was taken aback. I just thought I was confident and off as pure arrogance.

Sarah - 00:09:25:

And so it's interesting that, and I guess credit to you for that reaction of surprise versus dismissiveness versus ego versus power trip or any number of things that you might expect from someone who has that approach. But also, I think it's interesting that what really got your attention was the tie back to the performance metrics. And I think it's an important point to underpin for people because, again, when we start talking about the impact of leadership and how we treat people and the culture we're creating and the employee experience, there are still groups of people that see all of that as soft. And so just the real evidence of tying it back to performance, you know, it wasn't him coming to you and saying, now, I'm not saying you didn't consider this over time, right? But it wasn't him saying, like, here's how you're making people feel that got your attention. It was, here's how your approach is perceived and here's how it's affecting performance, right? So it's just an anecdotal proof point that these things aren't soft. There is evidence upon evidence upon evidence that treating people well will improve performance more so than that bulldog mentality or approach. So my next question then is, you mentioned there was about 10 years before you took that feedback that you didn't dismiss. You know, you really took in and considered, but actually put action behind it. So why so long?

Joe - 00:11:07:

Yeah, I would say there was hints of it before then. It really came back in, again, to your point, as a matter of just realizing as my team size grew, my impact grew in an organization and it spread wider and wider, I understood slowly at the time the importance of each and every action and every word as a leader that gets said. So as I started to realize that, and some credit to Terry Diaferio, who was my leader at the time, he would remind me of that constantly. So having him, who was a different type of leader than what I was working with when I was at Coldspring, and not to say either was good or bad, but one of the things we talked about in the past together is the changing evolution, the evolutionary dynamic of senior leadership. And my experience very early on was sitting around a table as the youngest guy in the room, and it was the loudest voice one, not always the best idea. And so that's what I thought it looked like until I was given something. Different to learn from in Terry, where he was still very intense, but yet he brought a different element forward, showed me where I had opportunities to grow. And I was able to draw on those comments from the past and start to put them into play. And really, like I mentioned earlier, the inflection point for me was seeing a really high-functioning team that I built, put them under undue stress, and actually did not achieve the results I would have expected. That's where I really had to think about it. And it goes to that, you know, the ways of working have changed. People's expectations have changed. People are more aware of themselves, right? They're more aware of how they fit into the world than we ever have. And it's not, you don't see the culture of, I need to mimic leadership. You see more of a culture of people that have superpowers that want to apply those, but still maintain their sense of individuality, not put on the suit, not put on the badge, and become a different person for 10 hours a day, having the respect for this is the person, these are their superpowers. That's been a big part of the change.

Sarah - 00:13:13:

So you touched on two important points that, again, I just want to kind of emphasize. One is, and I'm trying to think of how to articulate this, but the way that culture trickles down and out, right? And so this is something that I think particularly when we think about field service and the industries that a lot of the folks that come on or listen to this podcast are in, industries that have a lot of legacy, right? That also brings with it a lot of kind of old school culture and old school thinking. And to your point, it isn't about the people are bad or the intentions are bad or any of that. Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but it's about the effectiveness isn't there, right? But I think one of the challenges for leaders today is considering how they surround themselves with environment, that are aligned with the approach they feel works because I talked to a good amount of people who are really more modern in their thinking, but surrounded by people who aren't. And that can be very, very challenging. It doesn't mean you can't affect change positively by any means, but I think, you know, there are more limits and more challenges that you encounter when you're not in an overall company culture that is sort of aligned towards some of the same core beliefs, right? The other thing I think is really interesting is, you know, you mentioned what's modeled. Okay. And I think that is true, also evolving, but historically true, both in the environment you were in, but also just sort of like characteristically how men are taught to be strong, right? Like you mentioned that when Tom said that to you, you said, well, wow, he's using these words. I thought it was this. And I just think, you know, we don't have time to even get into this whole discussion, but I think it's very interesting to consider then, you know, we talk often about how women can be perceived in the workplace and how when a man strongly verbalizes an opinion, he's seen as strong. And when a woman does it, she's seen as other things, right? But I think it is also interesting to think about the flip side of that sort of conditioning of if you want to be a strong leader, historically, it looks like X, Y, and Z. And how do we, you know, not only embody a new approach, but shift that narrative to be one that is more aligned to what works with the modern workforce and the workforce of the future?

Joe - 00:16:04:

Yeah, I agree. And I think as we talked about prior, the challenge is amplified in field service, right? I have the luxury of having a career that's in a lot of different industries, different work environments from four walls of manufacturing to quarries to remote sites to field service. And it creates a bigger challenge. And as you talked about, the historical reference that we have has been slower to change in field service, in my opinion, than it has in, say, a manufacturing environment or a retail environment or even in B2C, certainly, that we would consider field services. Think SafeLight, Autoblast, right?

Sarah - 00:16:46:

Sure.

Joe - 00:16:46:

It's a unique industry that way. And we have, as you mentioned, a lot of folks that have come up through the businesses over time are in leadership positions that are still working off of references that are relatively dated. And so, as we talked about, it's been slower and it's been a bigger challenge. And it creates a culture where, especially in field service, we continue to see our best service providers becoming our leaders. And quite often, we're not preparing them along the way for that transition. And to make it even more difficult in field service, right? If you're in manufacturing and there's 20 other supervisors and 800 people in the building. You have examples every day of what good looks like from how they interact with their team, how they talk about KPIs, how they draw results. And you have bad examples that you want to avoid. When you're in a field service environment, you're on your own. So, if your senior leader is simply pushing a P&L at you and saying, your P&L defines your performance for the year, that's it. That's really old school. And that's still happening at some of the biggest brands we know today, not helping us move the leadership. Our team done that spectrum down, developing to that new leadership style. It's actually reinforcing and perpetuating kind of the path. In some cases, some will see that as micromanagement when we're talking just about the MBOs are managing by the P&L, but I think that's been the end result that we have to start to convert Trump.

Sarah - 00:18:18:

Yeah, so there's this idea of micromanagement, I think. And how would you contrast that then with this P&L-centric management?

Joe - 00:18:28:

Yeah, so as I was thinking about this topic, you think about the end-of-pipe metrics, T&L performance, things like that that have been historical in field services. You've got the traditional structure where there might be a regional manager with other field managers within there. And if we have one set of things we're focused on only and we pound those on a daily basis, it can create bad decision-making, right? It's very narrow in focus and can create some bad decisions. Whereas you start to span out, like I mentioned, the opposite is something that I'm even more concerned about, which is an utter lack of management, right? Where I've seen in the field service industry, we put our technicians out in the field. We put KPIs out there. We send them out to do work. And as long as those KPIs look okay, we're hands-off. We only focus where something doesn't look right. And the risk with that is we don't know. We may not know how those results were achieved. You don't dig into it and understand it. So that lack of management or that lack of oversight in the field can be just as detrimental as micromanagement. And finding that right way of working, that right balance between allowing the freedom of the team to take advantage of their superpowers and strength with just enough organization and structure, we're all moving along together. And I think

Sarah - 00:19:53:

Maybe oversight reinforces the idea of micromanagement in some ways, but it's more so engagement, staying engaged. What are they encountering? I had a gentleman from Tetra Pak on a couple of months ago, and we talked about a whole initiative that they had that started in Europe to understand better just kind of like the mindset of their technicians. And he talked about a survey they did, but I really loved some of the questions that they asked because it wasn't as formulaic as some that you might think. You know, they actually asked, like, what makes you feel proud in your role? When do you feel most supported? When do you feel not supported? Like things where it's this idea of understanding both what are the teams feeling fulfilled by in their roles and how can you amplify those? And then also where do the challenges lie and how can you remove some of those barriers? Right. So it's kind of oversight to me feels maybe even too transactional for like the mentality we're talking about. It's more engagement and like this concept of some of the things we're going to talk about and understanding and building relationships with your team and considering their strengths and all of those types of things.

Joe - 00:21:12:

Yeah, there's symptoms of the past still when we talk about micromanagement. But you think back a few of years. You'd have a guy show up to install something at your home. And before he left, he would give you his personal cell phone number and say, if there's any issues, call me. Why was he doing that or why was she doing that? Because from a micromanagement perspective, that KPI was only used in a negative way. It wasn't from an engagement perspective to say, geez, we had an issue with an install. Where did it break down? It was a technician avoiding getting a ding in their KPI. So they're having a negative conversation, it sounds like a simple shift but to shift to it's okay to have an install not go great as long as we can go back and understand what happened and engage that technician rather than dumping the technician it's a mind shift there but you still have to get over the hurdle of people are still used to a lot of people are still used to those KPIs from a micromanagement perspective being used to bludgeon yeah then to understand where the business is letting the technician down where they weren't able to be successful a big shift that is still underway that i think is again been a little bit slower to take hold in our world of field services than other sectors

Sarah - 00:22:28:

Absolutely. And the way you just said that is perfect. Where is the business letting the technicians down? It's shared responsibility, not blame. And you're absolutely right that particularly technicians that have been around a while, they are very well programmed to be more fear-based and to expect that mentality. So let's talk a little bit about the importance in leadership today to recognize and understand the different strengths you have in your team, or teams, and then position your team members to succeed.

Joe - 00:23:04:

Yeah, the huge part, I talked about it a bit at the field service conference a while back, and recognizing talent and where your team is at is vitally important. And I'll go back again, that really starts with understanding yourself and whatever that takes. There's tools and there's programs for that, everything from the well-known disk to the strength finder to a number of different ones that I've got here. We can share later, but really it starts with understanding ourselves, understanding what our strengths, where our weak spots are, right? And there's a tool I use at the very beginning, whenever I'm bringing in a new leader or when I'm joining an organization that I would recommend people use called new leader assimilation. It's very basic, very easy to execute, but it gives you a leg up on helping your team understand you as well. And I'll give you an example. Like with myself, I understand that I can, I love highly engaging in conversation backed in data and facts, but I can become frustrated if it's a conversation that drones on based on opinion rather than data and facts. I'll share that with my team when I first meet them. This is something I know about myself. You should know about me. Once you have a strong understanding of yourself and you're building a team, if we take it from that angle, you have to be able to quickly assess and understand the team you have and the pieces that you also need. And that is beyond the technical, right? When you get to a certain point in your career, the technical elements stream out on the resume. It's really what makes the difference is what you mentioned earlier is the formerly labeled soft, what separate especially leadership or leaders from the high-performing leaders from the low-performing leaders. So when I get with my team, like I said, understanding myself and then getting a really good, strong understanding of them and what their superpowers are. There's an example I like to give. When I assembled a team in my past, I had been accused of assembling strange-looking teams. That tend to perform highly. But I knew I had a Jason that was highly technical. And if I had a harebrained idea, I needed to run it by Jason because he was going to fill in all the gaps. If we had a new initiative or strategy rolling out that we needed to be communicated, well, I had John. John was the best communicator on my team. He led the charge there. So from understanding yourself, understanding the strengths of your team, and then putting them in those positions to take advantage of those strengths is vital. And understanding and really getting the team to understand that where they're going to succeed best is being their true self. Not trying to be me, not trying to be Tim, not trying to be Becky or anybody else, but really getting people comfortable with being their genuine self, focusing on their team, understanding their team, putting them in the right position to create better than expected results. There's other elements that I think are important within that. From coaching, right? I sat in a session at Sodexo the other day, and we were talking about how often one-on-ones are happening, everywhere from weekly to every six months, right? Well, how do you apply the really basic tools, really basic understanding to strength assessments, all those things, your personal observations to put people in a successful spot?

Sarah - 00:26:29:

I think as you're describing this, I'm kind of thinking in my mind, one of the initial objections I can imagine people would service is that's too time-consuming. Which I think is interesting because, you know, when we think about, and obviously this is a broad generalization of all of field service, right, and which is a lot of different industries. But generally speaking, we've witnessed a shift of service as a cost center where it was very transactional success, very formulaic, which I think is where this, you know, ability to drive through KPIs came from, or at least when it worked, right? Because it was something breaks, it needs fixed, it needs fixed fast, it needs fixed well, and if we can do that, we're winning, right? To service as a profit center. Service as a potential competitive disadvantage. Service as often a new revenue stream, et cetera, et cetera. It's not formulaic anymore, right? There isn't just an easy recipe for success, and therefore, people become the critical asset. And understanding then how you position these various strengths to create something truly compelling and to give your customers whatever it is that they want, that they can't easily get elsewhere. You can't do that managing by P&L, to your point. It becomes like, yes, it's time-consuming, but what's the alternative? You know, the alternative is being disrupted. The alternative is, you know, becoming competitively obsolete. So I just think it's really interesting how a lot of the skills or evolution of skills that we're talking about is also rooted in the evolution of service and its role within the business. Does that make sense?

Joe - 00:28:24:

Yeah. It does. And I think we're going to start to get to a topic that's really near and dear to me when we talk about how we start to make that shift that you're talking about, right? I'll share a brief example I've shared in the past that will maybe get us going down that path. And really, I'll underline it under the guise of mindful leadership and give a quick example of what less than mindful leadership looks like, and then we can dive into it. The story is about my uncle when he worked for U.S. Steel and the steel mines. He was a millwright and he would make parts for the large equipment at the steel mine. And in short, he offered a suggestion for an improvement that would reduce downtime on a belt line. And his supervisor basically told him, I pay you to work with your hands, take your work order, go do your work, get it done. Fast forward to today, right? So in that world, not being mindful of that individual strength, not being in mindful of that individual, my uncle's superpowers and ignoring those versus what you just talked about is where we move forward today. And in this world where we're not just a cost center, our service technicians are the face of our companies and our brands. They deliver a service. They deliver it in a way that creates a lasting impression based on our brand. If a leader... Is a micromanager only dealing with problems, running hot all day, carrying all kinds of baggage through the day. What type of experience is that employee going to have? And then what type of experience is that employee going to translate onto our valued customers or client? So having that mindful leader approach can ensure that, especially in field service, where that person with the uniform showing up at our business or at somebody's home is the lasting memory of Sodexo or name the service company even more important than it has ever been as we go down this continuum. So I think there's a lot we can chat about in that space. And when it comes to making that shift to what I refer to as mindful leadership rather than micromanagement P&L leadership.

Sarah - 00:30:34:

So how would you describe the ideal balance of leadership between sort of the technical skill and tactical approach versus the kind of mindset and ethos?

Joe - 00:30:46:

I think definitely have to be solid in the first element, right? We have to understand our business. We need to know what levers cause what reaction down the line, right? If we're trying to drive for efficiency, quality, customer experience, you have to be flawless in the things, the technical aspects. The further we get from the field through our career and are trying to influence our culture back down, that ratio needs to continue to grow less on the technical side and more on that mindful leadership communication side and what we're saying, how we're saying it, when we're saying it, who we're saying it to. I think that there's a kind of a sliding scale, right? The closer you are to the field, the more technically sound you have to be, but then call it 20 or 30% focus on your people, understanding them and your customers, but then just continue to slide that as you move up the organization. Because you're going to have experts like on my team. I have sourcing experts. I have technical experts. I've got quality experts, safety experts. If they're all set up right, they're going to build a great plan based on what we've communicated. And so I beat them, focusing more on how do we shift culture in the organization while their leaders are focused more on technical. So I know that's not perfectly clear, but it is a sliding scale kind of depending on where you're at within that service organization.

Sarah - 00:32:10:

Yeah, that makes sense. Now, what are some of the facets or traits or practices that you feel are most important in leadership today?

Joe - 00:32:20:

I think being genuine. People are really smart. People are really empathetic. If you're not, you're genuine self, you're already down. You've watched it happen. You try to be something you're not. People will sniff you out immediately and you'll lose credibility. It's okay that people may not like you as long as you're being your true self. You're not going to have everybody that's going to be on your side at all times and you have to be okay with that too. A huge part is truth telling. I always emphasize the importance of transparency and honest feedback. Truth-telling in terms of, especially as, again, you grow up in the organization. The last thing you want to do is be less than transparent. Truth-telling isn't always fun either. You're going to have to tell somebody something they don't want to hear either up the chain or down. But I think it's vitally important that we're transparent and tell the truth, unveiled truth at all times. I think as leaders, another key element is being adept at coaching and not just using coaching as a word blindly, but truly dedicating time to becoming a good coach, a good question asker, a good listener, a good developer, it's a vital skill. And then I throw in things that I think are, these are a little bit newer to the party, but I think they're important. An ability to be paper mindful, saying, be meditative, be mindful, allows you to be your true self, allows you to be focused and genuine. So even the practice of setting intentions, being willing to set intentions for a day or even for a meeting, right? I was just coaching a former employee prior to meeting with you. I've got a much more stressful conversation coming up. So how do I? As a leader, how do I look for somebody who can adapt and adjust? Mindfulness practices of simply taking a deep breath and resetting your energy and your intention towards the next meeting. That's a great way to be like. I even brought a resource with one of the books I use. You can see it's kind of tabbed up. It's called Move to Greatness, where if you need to be in a driver energy, organizer energy, collaborator, visionary, there's even physical movements you can do to help get yourself to that right space. So, like I said, if you go down the list, genuineness, truth-telling, true coaching ability, and mindful leadership are, if those things exist and the technical piece is there, it can do great things.

Sarah - 00:34:43:

So I want to come back to two things quickly. One is the idea of telling the truth up, okay? Because I think truth-telling, very important no matter what, right? Being honest, being transparent, being open, I think is very important. But I think it's probably more likely people struggle with doing that up versus down. To the point I said toward the beginning about the feedback Tom gave you, right? I mean, again, he was telling the truth up because he felt it was important to be transparent and honest, but that's something that it can be tough for a lot of people to do. So what advice do you have on truth-telling up?

Joe - 00:35:23:

Starting first is understanding who you're going to be speaking to and what is their view of the situation, being mindful of that, attempting to remove as much of the emotion from your observation that you're about to share, being fact-based, and being really confident in what you're going to share, especially if it's contradictory to what your leadership team believed to be the case. So the leadership team believed the product is ready to roll out in the field. Quick example, you do your analysis and it absolutely is not. How do you craft your message to your senior leadership team in a way that exposes the truth and says this product is going to cost 2x in annual maintenance than what we had in our pro forma? How do you pass that message in a way where it can be received? And also then act it on and resource to help solve the problem. Understanding your audience and understanding the data and facts. And then lastly, offering alternative paths. Way too often new leaders come into an organization and they're really good at explaining the problem, but they're not good at offering alternative solutions or they haven't been empowered to offer alternative solutions historically. So I always encourage my leaders, come with your problems and come with alternative solutions. And at the same time, when you're, like you said, that truth-telling conversation, that may not be what your leader was expecting to hear that day.

Sarah - 00:36:50:

Good advice. My other question is, at what point and how did you first get into the mindfulness and meditation stuff?

Joe - 00:37:01:

I think I mentioned earlier, maybe about five years ago. And it started on a personal journey, but then developed into the professional side. I started working with my coach. Her name is Jill Summers. Anybody listening and want to look her up, I know she has a couple of available slots for clients right now. But I started working with her on a personal journey, like I mentioned, trying to understand myself better about five years ago. And as I went down through that journey with her, I started making these connections to the workplace. And so I would say in the workplace, it started about three years ago, four years ago. And even you jump forward to today, beyond just how I lead personally, mindfulness has made its way into my teenage world. Sometimes we'll do a breathing exercise. Sometimes we'll be mindful and just, we have an hour meeting. I'll tell, ask everybody who's been at their desk all day. Everybody raises their hand. A mindful gesture is turn off your cameras, go outside for a walk for 10 minutes and come back a little bit of self-care to get you out of your seat.

Sarah - 00:38:02:

So we've been talking a bit about the evolution of your leadership journey and style. How often do you think leaders need to be reflecting on and, as necessary, reimagining or recreating their leadership style?

Joe - 00:38:17:

It's a continuous journey. I don't think there's an end point. There are certain milestones where you're definitely going to have to assess your leadership style, right? Joining a new organization, building a new team, moving to a different element of the organization. Even the most mindful leader, that leadership style may not be appropriate for the time and place that they find themselves in. So I think reassessing continually and making micro-adjustments is the best approach, but also assessing at those big milestone moments, new strategies, new leaders, and just assessing how your style is meshing. Worst-case scenario, if you're just not getting the result. You've got to really look at your leadership style and see where you're missing.

Sarah - 00:39:00:

So you showed us the book and you talked a little bit about how you transition from sort of event to event or pieces of the day. Anything else on how you channel the right energy to bring to your team or to whatever it is that you are responsible for throughout the day?

Joe - 00:39:21:

If you go through the day, it's actually a bigger practice. It starts every day with a similar pattern in the morning. The things that I do to prep for the day, you already mentioned it. It's the things that you do between moments in time and setting yourself up to the next one. I think also vitally important, as we haven't discussed, is having what we all like to refer to as time to focus and stop going meeting to meeting and be mindful of what was in that last meeting. What do I need to follow up on? Who do I need to check in with? And then I also make it a habit to do that at the end of each day, at the end of each week, at the end of each month to continually reflect and then look forward to see what are those challenges coming at me in the next week, month, quarter, or year. So you can start to put your energy in line with that rather than waiting for it to be on your doorstep. I also, when you get into the really micro stuff, Sarah, when people go on vacation, make them go on vacation. Don't call them, don't email them. Just simple little stuff like that that set us up for success so people can truly disconnect, re-energize, and come back to work. It's even little stuff like that where we forget about that quite often.

Sarah - 00:40:36:

Yeah, and I mean, it's not that little, really. It's really, really important. What leadership resources, inspiration, information, et cetera, do you find most valuable? Anything you would share for people to check out that they might not be familiar with or might not think to use, that sort of thing.

Joe - 00:40:57:

So this is going to sound a little silly to start with, but anytime you interact with a service person in your daily life, ask them questions. I had a safe flight due to Red Shield recently. Both technicians were amazing in their pre-trip call, in their follow-up at the end. And I just asked them, how do you know where you're going next? What do you like about your job? How do you know you're having a good day? So learn from them. Other tools to use are ones we know, but maybe haven't used on a daily basis, is something like a disk assessment. They've done so much with disk where now I can go into a meeting at a big company like Sodexo. I can pull up another employee's disk profile, put them side by side, and see what I need to think about mentally to prepare for if I'm going to be going into a meeting with a high C and I'm a high R. I can be mindful of who I'm meeting with. So I'm not just applying Joe to the situation, but I'm being mindful of who I'm sitting across from and how they might receive information. I love reading, and I always encourage people to read books. I'll always have one in my bag. You saw the one on moving to greatness. There's a ton of books around that. The new one I'm reading, I can't recommend it yet, but I can say I'm reading it, is The Conscious Professional by Jessica Hartung. I am a huge proponent of coaches, and that's why I have one in more than one space of my life. So folks like Joe Summers, my coach, who I'm happy to connect anybody to, I highly advise having a professional coach. Either continuously or at certain periods of time. One that's a little bit different that I've found to be a great source of inspiration, no matter how interesting it might be, is actually a masterclass. I downloaded that masterclass. If you haven't heard of it, check it out. But it's everything from business and strategy to how to make a great cup of coffee. But seeing these different folks, different leaders, from Oprah to different political figures, different business leaders, talking about their success. It's been a really cool way to grab eight and ten-minute clips of information to try to draw some inspiration out of. So I thought I'd throw that one in there, even though it's a little bit off the grid. But masterclass has been kind of a cool, creative way for me to think a little bit different recently.

Sarah - 00:43:12:

I like that. I mean, all good things. And I like what you said. The idea of these conversations in this podcast, you know, isn't that anyone needs to try and replicate anyone else's approach or success, but just that you can get some fresh perspective, get some different ideas or inspiration and understand a bit better what others are thinking and doing. And I think there's a lot to gain from that, doing it through things like this, but also masterclass, reading or whatever those ways are that you can sort of broaden your perspective and reflect on what's working well for others.

Joe - 00:43:51:

Yeah. And the last thing I encourage people is to be open about if you are on that journey, like my current team at Sodexo, I shared with them my mindfulness journey and meditative work. Surprisingly, within 10 minutes of that meeting, almost half of my team sent me individual notes, say, hey, guess what, I do that, too. God, I'm a runner. I'm a lifter.

Sarah - 00:44:24:

Yeah.

Joe - 00:44:24:

I do this. It's okay to talk about that, now find, I found. Anyway. Here's a lot more people are. I'll take things to the pandemic or what, but, when you do start to talk about it, you will be surprised how many people are either willing to discuss it or practicing some of those same techniques on their own or are very open to doing those things at work, right? Like, I'll work with my team on, breathing exercises, if we're going to have a challenging meeting, we'll start and do two or three minutes of a box breath before we get started to center everybody in and bring them back in, so.

Sarah - 00:44:54:

Yeah.

Joe - 00:44:54:

It's vitally be willing to talk about it.

Sarah - 00:44:56:

And it's a case study in you being genuine. And we talked about how important that is. So yeah, that's wonderful. Well, Joe, thank you so much for coming on and sharing sort of your trajectory thus far and some of what you've learned, some of what's working for you today. I really appreciate it and would love to continue the conversation at some point in the future.

Joe - 00:45:18:

Absolutely. Thank you for the opportunity and good luck on future episodes.

Sarah - 00:45:22:

Thank you so much. You can learn more by visiting the home of the UNSCRIPTED podcast at futureoffieldserviceref.ifs.com. There is all sorts of information there on everything from leadership and the talent approach to digital transformation and service transformation and much, much more. So check it out. The UNSCRIPTED podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thank you for listening.

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Episode 279

In this episode of the Unscripted Podcast, host Sarah Nicastro shares a synopsis of attending Field Service East in Orlando on August 13th, 2024. She discusses the importance of customer centricity and the role of technology in improving employee and customer experiences.

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The Show Notes

Sarah - 00:00:00:

I think it's an important reminder for service leaders to keep in mind that as you look to what the impact of AI can be or how it can expand within your business, you also need to be keeping an eye on everything else. And that includes other technologies, but it also includes things like leadership and culture and engagement and, you know, soft skills and customer sentiment.

Hello, welcome to the UNSCRIPTED podcast, where you'll find discussions on what matters most in service, leadership, and business transformation. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Let's jump in.

I am flying solo today to do a brief recap or summary for you all of the Field Service East event, which took place August 13th through the 15th in sunny Orlando. So, I will start this by saying I was only at the event for day one. So I was speaking on day one. I attended the majority of the sessions on day one and did as much networking and interacting and talking with people as humanly possible in one day, but I did have to depart on day two. So this won't be a comprehensive recap because I wasn't at the event for the entire thing. But I actually had the opportunity to kick off the first day of the event with a keynote session where I spoke about, so the theme for the day was talking about customer centricity. And I wanted to reinforce the connection between the importance of employee experience and customer experience. So I think, you know, that's a connection that I hope everyone understands well at this point, but I think we're at various phases of organizations taking that understanding and actually operating from a place of understanding that and aligning actions to that understanding. So what I spoke about is not only that connection, but from a technology standpoint, how we need to really evolve our thinking from technology being, seen as something that can, you know, drive productivity, drive efficiency for organizations and broaden that to also consider the ways in which it can be leveraged to improve the employee experience. So this is not to say, of course, that, you know, managing costs, maximizing efficiency, or improving productivity are not important. It's simply to say that companies that are leading, I think, are doing so by considering not only the ways that technology investments can benefit the business, but also how leveraging technology to improve the employee experience can also benefit the business while benefiting those employees. So I gave some examples, in which I summarized an article that we can link in the show notes, but that was my session, and enjoyed kicking off the day. I actually really like going first, because you get it out of the way, the hard work is done, and then, you know, you can just enjoy from there. So I had the opportunity to introduce some of the speakers throughout the morning and also moderate a panel discussion, which I'll speak about momentarily. But after I spoke, Greg Ratcliff, who is the chief innovation officer at Vertiv, did a keynote on essentially the importance of data. What I really liked, so he got up, are you guys ready to nerd out? Which, you know, isn't really my thing, but it was great. But what he talked about was this evolution from paper-based service to essentially digital paper to data-driven service. And I think it's really interesting because, you know, I've said this before, you know, the term digital transformation is just so broad and can be very confusing in some ways, right? Because, transformation to me gives the connotation of transforming from one thing to the next thing, right? But really we're talking about a digital journey. And I think the initial wave or waves of transformation that a lot of service organizations did digitally was really just to replace paper-based processes with digital paper-based processes, right? We weren't significantly leveraging data. We weren't really optimizing. We weren't layering in, you know, remote capabilities and AI and really adding intelligence to that process. And today, all of those things are not only possible but happening, which significantly increases complexity and also opportunity, which is exciting. So Greg did a great session on some of those things and what that looks like at Vertiv and how they're thinking about it, what they're working toward, et cetera. So, then there were a couple of other sessions, one from Aquant, one from ServiceMax. I had the opportunity to host a panel discussion with Greg, who I mentioned from Vertiv, Craig Bruns from Crown Equipment, and Logan Lewis from EnterBridge. And the panel discussion was on essentially build versus buy. And to be completely honest with you all, when I got the information that that was the topic, I was kind of surprised because, I don't know, to me, and I understand I have bias here, but to me, I think there's very few arguments today to build. And we actually talked about this in the panel discussion. And I think Greg made the point that even within the last five years, the field service management solutions that are available have become so much more sophisticated, sophisticated and accessible that, you know, there would be, it would be hard to defend the idea of not leveraging something that, you know, that much work, effort, time, resource, et cetera, has been put into. Now that we talked about, you know, obviously some of the advantages of building, which is mostly control. But I think, you know, by and large, we're just at a point where, for a company to have the volume of knowledge and resource that it takes to do that well is pretty rare. So it was an interesting conversation nonetheless. And we talked about some things that, you know, really were applicable no matter what. So, you know, building business case and ensuring adoption and things like that. It was an interesting chat. Craig from Crown also had a session of his own on that day and talked about their initiative of leave no tech behind. And so what they're doing from a technology perspective to make sure that their technicians are well enabled in the field to make sure that they have access to everything they need to have access to from history to knowledge to support and all of the different pieces of technology in place, throughout the service journey to make sure that those technicians are properly equipped and enabled. So I also had an interesting conversation about the idea of both the benefits and potential debt of legacy. So talking about how when a company has had continued success or sustainable success for years and years and years and has, a reputable brand and has a very well-defined customer base and customer experience, you know, to what point does that sort of exacerbate or breed status quo, like embracing the status quo versus when and where and how do you select the points of opportunity for innovation or change? And I think it's a really interesting question. I think, you know, we talk about that quite a bit from the perspective of companies who are ‘servitizing’ the business or companies who want to introduce as a service offerings, because that's sort of a fundamental shift in how those companies are operating. This conversation was less in should we fundamentally change how we do business, more in do you miss the boat if you get very stuck in, well, what's working is working really, well, and don't look to external inspiration or other industries and how they're innovating. Like, is there potential to be disrupted if you aren't more actively seeking areas to innovate? I don't have the answer. I think certainly, you know, the idea of just leaning into the status quo and just avoiding change because what's working has been working and is working well. I don't think it's the right path. You know, I think companies like, well, I mean, we won't name names, but, you know, there are companies that have been significantly disrupted that aren't even around anymore that I think would agree. You know, you want to be looking toward the future and what's next and what's around you and what's happening and what could happen. But, you know, when you have customers that are very happy with the current ecosystem, you know, that does present a challenge of making sure that you dedicate the time and energy to that. And also that you continue to honor the legacy business that's working well while you also look for those areas of opportunity. I don't think any of you would be surprised to hear that AI came up in every session, and I would expect that, of course. You know, it's, again, something that is holding potential to add a lot of intelligence into companies, digital journeys and to really bring a new wave of capability. But I had an interesting chat with someone and the way he worded it is, I understand that AI is something we need to be thinking about, but it isn't everything. And I think that person was frustrated that, you know, it was so front and center that it seemed like there was maybe not enough space to be talking about some of the other things. And I think it's an important reminder for all of us. You know, I think, it's an important reminder for service leaders to keep in mind that as you look to what the impact of AI can be or how it can expand within your business, you also need to be keeping an eye on everything else. And that includes other technologies, but it also includes things like leadership and culture and engagement and, you know, soft skills and customer sentiment and, you know, all sorts of things. And I think, you know, when it comes to the event organizers in this space and the technology providers, you know, it's also important to keep perspective on the fact that while AI is uniquely positioned to really change a lot in terms of how intelligently and how automated and how, you know, modern operations can become, there are still a lot of other factors in play within these businesses from a technology standpoint and far beyond that these folks are needing help with, that they're seeking knowledge on, that they are wanting to interact with resources and with one another on. And so I think this idea of, yes, AI is definitely something that we need to be talking about and thinking about and learning about and discovering. And we need to continue thinking about and learning about and sharing about all of the other things that are on the minds of service leaders today and into the future. So those were my tidbits from the event. It was unfortunate that I wasn't able to catch more of the content that was being presented. However, I did talk to a few folks there and plan to reach out to some others who were sharing insights on other topics to see if they would be willing to come here on the podcast and share some of those insights with you as well. So stay tuned, and hopefully we'll have more for you soon.

You can take a look at the article that I wrote summarizing my keynote at futureoffieldserviceref.ifs.com and you can find a bunch of other things there as well. If you enjoy the UNSCRIPTED podcast, I hope you'll take an opportunity to rate or leave us a review on Apple or Spotify. The podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. And as always, thank you for listening.

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Episode 278

In a session from Future of Field Service Live in Cologne, Germany, host Sarah Nicastro welcomes back Daniel Trabel, Director of Field Service EMEA at Thermo Fisher Scientific, to discuss how critical a company’s talent strategy is to service today and why it demands creativity and a willingness to break free of the status quo to be successful.

Daniel is a passionate and visionary leader with a strong track record in clinical diagnostics, life sciences, medical devices, and biotechnology. Before joining Thermo Fisher Scientific, he was a Service Manager at Waters Corporation in Germany South, served as a Service Engineer at Cochlear, and held various key positions at Bio-Rad Laboratories.

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The Show Notes

Daniel - 00:00:00: I think what is also beneficial and probably is not seen as the first thing, typically the traditional engineers, they go to the instrument and fix the instrument and they think they're the smart and the master engineer. But there is more. I'm always trying to say that to my teams that you don't need to fix the instrument, you need to fix the customer. But around the instrument, there's a lot of more things. So you need to have this conversation with the customer. You need to make sure that at the end, the customer is happy and I think there is a part of soft skills that women have more than men.

Sarah - 00:00:38:

Hello, welcome to the Unscripted Podcast, where you'll find discussions on what matters most in service, leadership, and business transformation. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Let's jump in. I'm going to welcome my friend Daniel from Thermo Fisher Scientific to join us. We can sit.

Daniel - 00:00:55:

Yep.

Sarah - 00:00:55:

And so the topic of talent already came up in both sessions this morning. I knew it would. It's one of the most common challenges and most discussed topics. And so Daniel and I are going to talk about modernizing the field service talent approach to drive greater diversity and greater impact. So before we get into it, tell everyone a little bit more about yourself, your background, your role, anything you would like to share.

Daniel - 00:01:28:

Yeah. Hello, my name is Daniel Trebel. I'm part of Thermo Fisher Scientific, leading the field service organization in EMEA for the division instruments and enterprise services. My background, I started as an engineer a couple of years ago at electronics, and then I went over biomedical engineering into management because I figured out I was not the best engineer. I'm just joking, but I wasn't willing to work on my weaknesses this is not the end. I went into management roles and then five years within Thermo Fisher Scientific. For those who don't know the company, Thermo Fisher is the market leader in medical equipment and laboratory equipment things. So basically, we say we deliver to our customers everything for the lab, except the lab. So basically, a one-stop shop, 120,000 people worldwide, 44 billion of revenue. So it's a relatively big company.

Sarah - 00:02:18:

Pretty small company.

Daniel - 00:02:19:

Yeah, pretty small. Yeah. I'm living here not too far away, three hours drive in Hanover. I have twin girls, so that's also why this topic is so important for me, because at the end, I don't want to have them just pretty. They also should like to be strong and empowered personalities. And that's why I'm also pretty, let's say, enthusiastic about that topic we are speaking about today. Thermo Fisher®, in principle, the service organization, we have a division, a service division in the company. It's not the only service organization. There are some other divisions where service is embedded in the division and currently, we have the biggest growth rates in the company. Exactly to your point, we are over-pacing the instrument business massively, double digit every year. And that's also part of the strip for the next couple of years. And that's why it's so important to speak about this topic today.

Sarah - 00:03:07:

Yeah. So just out of curiosity, that consolidation of service into one division, I'm sure is partially to fully leverage the opportunity that service represents. But is it also, as I mentioned this morning, eliminating any silos from the customer journey? So making sure that the approach is holistic.

Daniel - 00:03:26:

Yeah, indeed. As a customer, you could have instruments from one division, could have instruments from another division, and always need to call different phone numbers. You have a different process behind, and it's so complex even for us to understand the company. So how can we ask our customers to understand how we work? So that's why we want to harmonize this. And at the end, also to look into synergies to find a better way to have the same tools, to have the same processes, and at the end, also the same seamless customer experience.

Sarah - 00:03:52:

Yeah. I did a podcast a while back with a gentleman from Dell, and someone told me that this analogy wouldn't translate in Europe, but I found that it has. So we'll see what you all think. So at Dell, the process that he has led is pretty much what you're talking about. So to consolidate the service function, but also to break down any silos that existed. Because as I mentioned earlier, what they were finding is that they would have a specific function that was really strong, another that was weak, another that was in between. And the overall customer experience was lacking despite them excelling in certain areas. So they really wanted to, like you said, bring that harmony. And the way the analogy he used is we need to focus on winning rings, not trophies. Because at least in American sports, if you have like a most valuable player of a game, they get a big trophy. They're winning because they were the most important player in the game where if you have a team that wins a championship, so the Super Bowl, that's football. I wasn't saying that to you. I was actually saying it to myself because I'm reminding myself. Or the World Series, baseball. When a team wins those, they all get a ring. So his idea is we need to be thinking about service as one big team. We need to be approaching it as one big team. And we need to be celebrating wins when we've won across the board, not when one function or one player has done an outstanding job. And I really like that analogy. Has nothing to do with our session, but here we are. Okay. So we talked this morning in both sessions, talent came up. But I want to get your take on what has changed and therefore what needs to change in organizations' approaches. And we're going to get into some of the specifics of what you've done, but just what's driving this? What do we need to respond to?

Daniel - 00:05:47:

Yeah, I think there's a couple of things changed. The 63 BC point, that's definitely something which also applies to service and to the talent market, because it looks like the attrition rate went up during or after COVID. People, because of the situation, they're all vulnerable situation at home, the private life. And they think about, I mean, there are struggle with many things. And then sometimes this is a catalyst later at the end to make a decision to change the job. And that is a problem for every organization. And that on top of the change of the generation, of generations that has a complete different motivators, different expectations from a job versus an aging population, especially in service. And let's say that the risk of losing all the experience into retirement, that all makes this so critical and complex to, let's say, drive into the future. And ensure that you have a stable and solid and working well population in your service organization.

Sarah - 00:06:37:

Yeah. Okay. So there's that talent dynamic. Now, what I also want to talk about before we get into what you've done is the need or really a significant opportunity to increase diversity in how would you describe the benefit of diversity and its importance?

Daniel - 00:06:55:

Yeah, I think there are studies that diverse teams have a higher throughput. They are more innovative because they don't think all the same. And I think Einstein said that already ages ago, that an evening where everybody has the same meaning is a lost evening. And that applies also to a setup of a team. I did that already in the past, tried to bring different personalities together just to have this exchange, this discussion culture. And I think you also need to have that in your service teams because you look and approach a problem from different angles and if you don't do that, you probably don't come to the solution quick enough. And this, in my eyes, is a big benefit.

Sarah - 00:07:29:

Yeah. I'm going to generalize for a moment, but there's a couple of things that I see as common related to what we just talked about. When it comes to the talent landscape, I see a lot of companies who exert a lot of energy complaining about it and not necessarily doing anything differently to address it. I don't know if that's because they don't know what to do and they feel stuck or if it's because they hope if they wait or complain long enough, it will somehow fix itself. And then from a diversity perspective, there's a good amount of organizations that I think know diversity is important. So they make sure that they're saying the right things and telling the right story related to their efforts, but they don't necessarily believe in it. And so they're either not achieving real results, or they may be hitting targets that have been set for them related to diversity, but not focusing at all on actual inclusion and leveraging the benefits of having that diverse mindset, skill set, approach, etc. So you've taken both of those challenges, looked at the opportunity within them, and use that to really get creative and do some things differently to yield some very positive results. So can you give everyone kind of an overview of what that's looked like. And then we'll dig into some of those specific points.

Daniel - 00:08:54:

Yeah. So, I mean, at the end, first of all, we identified we have a problem. And I'm not the only one. I'm sure almost everybody here can echo. So we thought we need to make something different. We need to find a way to attract a pool of candidates which are not our typical part of the service team. And it turned out relatively quickly that the silence is around female in service. And there is also a big opportunity because there is many women which are not thinking about service or probably not understand what service is about. And the other side of the metal, maybe fear that they are in an environment where they are male-dominated or the requirements are so high that they can't match it. And the difference between women and men is men tend to apply on everything which at least gives you 50% of the requirements confirmation. While women typically look if they meet it 100% or they can even give something more before they apply to a position. And that's because of it's little small things but makes a difference. So that was the initial thought on that. And we really tried to understand, okay, how we can start the process of attract women. And we figured out relatively quickly that it starts with the job ad. The job ad typically was designed for, we searched for field service engineer. So pretty already male-dominated the words. And all the requirements we want to see. 20 years of experience, blah, blah, blah, all this stuff. So it's something which doesn't apply for, I would say, 80% of the people you hire at the end. But it really shrinks your possible pool of talents and applicants significantly from the very beginning. So we thought of how we change this one into a more, I would say, low level, but also more open in terms of the language. So that was the point we started with.

Sarah - 00:10:37:

Can I just ask, who has reviewed and updated those job postings within the last 6 to 12 months or more recently? It's interesting when you start really reflecting on, again, goes back to storytelling in a way. Like, we know what all of this means. We know why we're using particular language or why we're pulling out particular skills. But if someone who doesn't know our industry, our company, that could potentially be a good fit, we're reading this, what would they think? Would they identify with any of this? Would they see themselves as a potential candidate? It's important to really start asking some of those questions and really digging into that and thinking, right? Because then that brings you to what we're going to talk about next, which is, okay, so we have all of these requirements, which are real, which have just been in this job posting for 15 years that maybe aren't even needed, but we've just kept them there because they've been there. And how could we start thinking about recreating, redefining things in a way that we can have some of this change? So you started with reflecting on the requirements, the wording, and thinking as a group. There was different folks involved in that process, really reflecting on how would this be perceived? Who are we maybe leaving out before we even have... That's the point is, before you've even had an opportunity to assess whether you think they could add value to the organization. If they're reading it and dismiss it, you don't even have an opportunity to determine if they could be a fit. So as you were doing that, and as you were looking at the wording and what you might need to change to attract a broader pool of candidates, how did that lead you then to also think about how you needed to redefine the roles internally to create what you felt would be a job posting that had a broader reach?

Daniel - 00:12:27:

Yeah, so first of all, go back to the initial part. The team we put together to identify the changes of the job ads was basically people from the field management, but also TA, HR, and also we tried to put some women into this conversation. And then we identified an external tool. That's a really

Sarah - 00:12:44:

good idea. Straight to the source. Yeah, what do you think? Yeah. Good, smart.

Daniel - 00:12:49:

So that was smart, yeah. And we identified an external tool which allowed us to create a score based on buzzwords, based on male or female-dominated words. We were able to tailor the job ad and then we implemented this also in our REC approval system. So the system now doesn't allow you to post a position if you don't match a score of at least 90 points. This is a company strategy now. So that means we are not able to post something when we are not meet the strategy and the things behind in terms of the way of thinking while posting this. I think that is a big change and that allowed us really to align with a strategy on all levels without having a conversation about that. Because you need to, otherwise you will not get the position approved. And then secondly...

Sarah - 00:13:35:

Sorry, can I interrupt one more time? Maybe not the last time, but once again. I want to just emphasize that point because there's a gentleman that's been on the podcast a number of times. His name is Roy Dockery. He's been at some different field service organizations and he's written a book on service leadership. But he has spoke at a lot of events about this topic. And I think he had a lot of really good advice before the industry was really ready to listen, if that makes sense. But the point you're bringing up about having this be a cross-functional process from the beginning is important. Because one of the challenges that he met early on was within the service leadership team, they defined the challenge. They needed to sort of change. But they didn't really loop in HR and recruiting. And even though. I think they even updated the job posting at one point. But the teams still weren't accepting a broader reach of candidates. They were turning away people that they would have wanted to interview, etc. Sometimes you can work against yourself if you're not looking at it from the perspective of not just the service leadership, but HR, recruiters, etc. To make sure everyone understands what the talent challenge is, what you need to do differently, and what steps you're going to take in each function to get a different result otherwise, you might have great objectives, but someone's out of the loop that is a really important piece of the puzzle. That's all.

Daniel - 00:14:56:

Yeah.

Sarah - 00:14:56:

Okay. From there.

Daniel - 00:14:57:

From there. So then it was about the role because, I mean, I mentioned Generation Z, but also the flexibility. Women as well as the young people are expecting from a job to be at home, I don't know, every evening in a field service organization. A normal job typically is difficult, especially when you deal with a big area to serve on. We reviewed our job profiles and identified opportunities in high-dense areas where we have a high-dense installed base. And we decided to go a route where we develop so-called pod areas for preventive maintenance, installation, qualification services only to reduce the travel ratio significantly and also lower the requirements because repair activities are out of scope for the new hires. And that gave two benefits. One benefit for sure, we can open up for a broader number of people to apply for. But secondly, also, we freed up more capacity for the existing engineers to focus on corrective maintenance. We also opened up for new roles for women, which is a very important part of the job. It's a very important part of the job. And it's also an important part of the job at the company. And it's also an important part of the job at the company. And it's also an important part of the job at the company. And just an example for Germany, because we're here, we opened up six roles, six of those new roles, and at the end we filled four with women. That's something I didn't, I didn't expect in that time.

Sarah - 00:16:12:

Yeah. So I want to go back to a couple points to make sure we don't go too quickly through them. What I want to point out is I said a lot of companies are spending a lot of energy complaining about the talent challenges, but not making impactful change to address it. This is an example of looking at what you had been doing, identifying the areas where it was falling short of the goal, which is to fill these roles and fill these roles with more diverse candidates. Understanding how the way that it had always been done was falling short based on what the current objectives are and making change. You didn't sit there and say, well, but we've always done it this way, but we have this qualification for repairs and what should we do about that? You got creative, came together, said, what if we did this? What if we did this? You eliminated a barrier to entry by separating the preventative maintenance from the repair work because there's different skills that are required certification for the repairs. So that's a really important point because are there things preventing you from bringing in talent without experience or without certain qualifications that is good talent that you could train and have be a valuable part of your organization? And is there a way to remove that barrier? The other thing is, this gets tricky because I'm a woman, I'm a mom, and I'm really passionate about being a woman and a mom and having a career. However, I would also say we have to be really careful of making, too broad of generalizations when it comes to women, right? And I'm not saying you did this. I think actually it's very smart because you are right that if a woman chooses to have a family, the likelihood that woman will want to be a technician traveling is not impossible, but it's certainly less. Some women, I was interviewed at an event last year and I think the guy that was interviewing me got really angry. It was live because he said, we were talking about this topic though, like, specifically women in service. And he said, well, we need more women because we just need more nurturers. And I was like, not all women are nurturers. Not all women are mothers like, we can't just drop women into a specific category of... Anyway, do you understand where I'm coming from? So I think as we go through this process, we have to be careful to not misrepresent. We have a woman with us today who is a field engineer who does travel. And if you don't mind me sharing, we had a chat at lunch and you were saying, I wonder what it will be like when I may have a family in the future. However, right now, you enjoy the travel piece. So the other thing is, by separating these roles, and you also mentioned it isn't just women, you could have just people that want more flexibility. And so you're opening up this option that exists for women or anyone who doesn't want to travel, who wants to have that more flexible environment. And also, as you have success, like you have bringing more women into the organization, even if it's initially in that role, you then have the ability to potentially have them come into field engineer roles that are traveling, if that's something that would be compelling. But again, storytelling, it comes back to being able to create these different narratives that people can see and learn from and identify with, and then look to open that up to whomever could potentially fit. So I love what you've done, though. You've eliminated the barrier to entry with the certification by creating this new role. You've given the option of a lot more flexibility, which obviously led to you being able to bring four out of six roles were filled by women.

Daniel - 00:19:50:

And it's an option, by the way. So we still have other positions people can apply, everybody can apply for. We also have women in those positions. So it's just an option.

Sarah - 00:19:58:

It's not like you're saying this is women only, or this is the only option that a woman can apply for. But you're being smart about identifying what are real barriers, removing them so that you can open yourself up to that broader talent pool. So you had that initial success. Now, what I want to talk about next is this was just in the initial setting that you first tried this. You brought in four out of six in those new roles were women, and they very quickly started advancing. So can you talk a little bit about that?

Daniel - 00:20:32:

Yeah, so at the beginning, for sure, there was some fears and some uncertainty also in the existing team because people had the feeling that, okay, if they don't serve the PMs anymore, they need to travel more. But at the end, it was basically leveled. So there was no big change for the existing team. And we also, by the way, we had one or two guys who went away from a normal field service world into such role. And by that, it was male, by the way, because they decided to reduce their travel to spend more time with the family. So that's also the other side of the metal. And it's positive that we offered that for them as well to ensure that we keep them in the organization. That's important to retain the team. So we had a couple of, let's say, concerns in the beginning. And it was also difficult in the beginning to get these positions on the same level in terms of are they seen as a full engineer or are they seen as a second-level engineer? So in terms of, let's say, low level. And it turned out after a while, because of their day-to-day activities only on those specific activities, that they became pretty, pretty fast subject matter experts. Now they are seen as the experts for their specific activities. And they are mentors for engineers which are going into other roles. And they train those people just after a year or two years of learning curve. And that's something which is quite interesting as well, because typically we have an onboarding time and a time to productivity about two years. So it takes pretty, pretty long to get to that point. And with that, we were able to even shortcut this time frame because we really reiterate the same activities again and again and again. I mean, it's a psychological thing. After seven times, you have it in your mind, so you will not get it out anymore. So that's part of the benefits as well.

Sarah - 00:22:05:

Okay, so you had folks come into those roles that became trainers. You had folks, I think, advance into leadership roles, correct? So I bring this up because I think it's important for us to think about a couple of things. One, if we're focused on diversity for the right reasons, is it represented at different levels of the organization? If we're focusing on diversity just to broaden the pool of frontline workers we can bring in as candidates, we're focusing on it for the wrong reasons, right? We need to be giving attention to where that stands across different areas of the business, different levels of the business. And the other thing is, part of the reality of today's talent landscape is people want opportunity to advance. They want to see how they can grow their career with your organization. So as you bring these people in, you need to be thinking about, okay, what are the opportunities, right? How we want to retain the talent as a business, not in the role that they came into the organization in. So making sure that you're looking for ways to understand those folks' unique skills and then map them to different needs within the organization. The other thing I wanted you to share about is you were able with the introduction of the preventative maintenance role to eliminate that certification for repair. But then you also were able to offer that internally if people want to get that certification once they've come into that initial role and then go into a repair role.

Daniel - 00:23:32:

Yeah, and that's not the only puzzle. So we also have a competency framework, which is some kind of, let's say, guideline for everybody to see, okay, what I need to do to go for the next step. And this is for the technical path, but it's also for the leadership path. We have a couple of those people who applied for internal roles for full field service activities, and they got the roles because they are super smart, super trained already. And it would be nonsense not to let them grow in the positions. And it's a proven track record now. Also, secondly, because you mentioned that, as an example, Germany is now led by a woman, the whole service organization in Germany. She started as an engineer a couple of years ago in Switzerland, went to a supervisor role and led the second-level team and now is taking care of the biggest service organization we have in Europe. Same goes for Spain. So we also here have a woman. She started in the customer care organization, moved over to field service, and then now is leading the field service organization in Spain. So there is opportunities, and we are not yet there where I would like to see. I'm not going for parity. That's something I don't want to look for because it's not a target you should set. But we need to increase our mindset. We need to change our mindset in terms of how we evolve the whole organization. I think now we have 13, 14% of women in the organization still is too low and would like to see more. But yeah, it's something which is a path and we're not yet there. And I mentioned is a vision. You need to think about the vision and not about the barriers and the problems. But you need to have some kind of sprint activities in between. And then you go for the next and the next and the next. So it's the salami tactic we spoke about. I think that's exactly the way we need to follow.

Sarah - 00:25:01:

Yeah. And I like the point you brought up about not striving for parity necessarily, because you don't want to set these arbitrary goals. And I think that is one of the traps, at least in the US, DEI gets a ton of heat right now, because it's just seen as sort of a checkbox exercise, etc. On the flip side, a lot of people say what you measure gets the attention. You could debate that however way you want. But I think the important thing is, the intent is diversity for the benefit it brings, not just because it's important, or just because we don't want to be perceived as not being diverse. And so when you're coming at it from that perspective, because you really believe how it can benefit the business, that is the important piece. I'm curious, you kind of mentioned the challenges with some of the existing engineers who were like, we don't want to travel more or being concerned about how that would impact them. I'm also wondering if you can speak to how did you prepare as a leadership team to make sure that the experience of those, that first wave of new candidates coming in, you certainly wouldn't want to bring them in, have them be treated poorly, because it's a big change or not feel included and then leave, right? So how did you prepare for that?

Daniel - 00:26:16:

Yeah, so the whole strategy was aligned with the whole management team. So really narrowed down to the line managers, the individual line managers. And then it's super important to have this one-on-one conversation, have this exchange between the teams. And typically when you change something in your team, you have the four phases starting with a storming phase. That's relatively normal, especially when you add something which was never there before. And in those cases is something completely new or is just a male team and then a woman comes in. But interestingly, because of the alignment upfront and everybody was following the same strategy, it was relatively quick that the people adapted and they also realized, okay, there is a couple of more things they bring in, which we probably don't know. But just to let you know, we have servicing instruments, which are pretty application focused as well. And many of our new hire women came from former customer positions. They have a lot of experience on the application side, which they brought in to the team. And so they extended the pool of skills in the team and they helped the colleagues to learn something about the application. And that at the end really, let's say, changed a little bit of thinking. It's not because she's here because she's a woman and it's invoked to have no woman in service. But really brings a benefit to the whole team and also helps me to do my work better.

Sarah - 00:27:29:

Yeah. But if I remember from our chat, you were also prepared. Like. You talked about some of the what-ifs, right? Like you were prepared as a team to not tolerate any nonsense if it came about. Because that's part of it is you have to be, everyone has to be on board. Everyone has to be willing to address behaviors that could come up that are not good for that new environment.

Daniel - 00:27:52:

I mean, we have an ethics program. Everybody needs to be trained on a regular basis on that. And it's part of the company culture. We have women BRGs. So it's really a strategy, it's a corporate strategy. It was probably not so applied for service because of the, let's say, traditional approach, but it's part of our DNA, I would say.

Sarah - 00:28:10:

Yeah, and I think also having the line managers of the new individuals, whomever they are, make sure that they're fostering that good one-on-one relationship and asking, how are you feeling about things? What challenges are you having? What's going well? What's not going so well? To try and encourage them to be comfortable being open about anything that might be coming up. Because there can be issues. I've talked to so many women in service who have shared crazy stories. But there can be issues within the organization. There can also be issues that come up in customer interactions, right? Which can get a little bit trickier in some instances. But you have to be willing, whoever the employee is, to protect them, to act on their behalf, etc.

Daniel - 00:28:48:

Yeah, I have a story from the lady. She's now leading Germany. I think one of her first activities on the customer side, she went in with a toolbox and the customer was staring at her. Are you the engineer? Is that your toolbox? Yeah. It was like amazing. Yeah, it was. Wow. Okay, it's a woman who was not expecting that at all. Well, other way around. I mean, if you have more traditional customers, sometimes still they have a bit of a barrier to accept that there is not a normal standard engineer coming. And the expectation is probably different. But if they make a good job at the end, I think they prove that also there is a way of change. You need to change your mindset also from a customer perspective.

Sarah - 00:29:24:

Yeah. Our podcast that is out this week is with a woman named Marianne Corey, who was most recently the president of a company called CoolSys, but she was with Johnson Controls for I think 28 years before that. And I was thinking of you because we talked about there's a balance of being resilient, having a tough skin, not being too sensitive from the woman's perspective. Like you're going to encounter things, right? And you can't necessarily fight every fight or be too offended by every little thing. But at the same time, you have to not just tolerate BS and just accept that's the way it is or it's the good old boys club or I don't want to speak up because I don't want to frustrate people. It was an interesting conversation to have with another woman because she was saying there is that balancing act between you can't just complain about every last thing, but you also have to pick things that you feel you need to stand up for.

Daniel - 00:30:23:

Can I add something?

Sarah - 00:30:24:

Yeah.

Daniel - 00:30:24:

I think what is also beneficial and probably is not seen as the first thing, typically the traditional engineers, they go to the instruments and fix the instrument and they think they are the smart and the master engineer. But there is more. I'm always trying to say that to my teams that you don't need to fix the instrument, you need to fix the customer. But around the instrument, there's a lot of more things. So you need to have this conversation with the customer. You need to make sure that at the end, the customer is happy and think there is a part of soft skillset that women have more than men to understand the needs of the customer because of this supporting and serving mentality. And also about because of the probably a little bit thin brain things and so on is they understand and they adapt and react in smarter way to bring down customers when it comes to an escalation. I think that is definitely also helping.

Sarah - 00:31:12:

Yeah. Here's what I want to want to really ask is what are your thoughts, thoughts about and advice for the businesses who are unwilling to get creative in the way that Thermo Fisher did to really make these changes, to not just reflect and say, oh, this talent challenge is horrible, but to really dig in and accept the reality, identify the problems. Find the solutions and put measures in place to really evolve and modernize the approach.

Daniel - 00:31:46:

Yeah, I think at the end, it's change. Everybody speaks about change. No one wants to, let's say, attack the change and no one wants to be part of the change. It's a human behavior, I would say. But if you don't do this, you will fall behind. Because at the end, if your workforce gets smaller and smaller, service is the glue. Service is not, let's say, part of the sales process. It's not just after sales. It's also pre-sales. It's also sales itself because it's a product. And we see the growth rates. And as I said, I'm sure Thermo Fisher is not the only company where service is outpacing instrument sales. So there is a specific need of having these people in service organizations. And you can't only look into AI. I mean, there's definitely something which might help us. And we probably don't know yet what AI will deliver us in 10 years from now. But you need to rely on people. It's a people business. And if you don't change and you don't go that route and you open your mind and you accept that you have to do this and then you act on that, you will fail. That's relatively easy to say.

Sarah - 00:32:43:

So you had this initial success, which you shared, and you've made a lot of progress since. You mentioned you're not really where you would like to see the organization, but you're continuing to work toward it. What is next in that evolution?

Daniel - 00:32:55:

Yeah, so one of the things we want to change is we want to find a possibility to combine the remote roles with the field roles. We have a digital remote team, which is almost 100% doing digital remote solutions with augmented reality, with AI support now as well. We just implemented a chatbot here with knowledge base functionality. But not having this dedicated, but having this combined with field activities gives two opportunities. One is to ensure that we keep the knowledge level because they are exposed to the instruments live in the lab or at other customer sites. While on the other hand, it gives the opportunity for the field team to decide, I go out of the field for maybe one week or two to align on the expectations in terms of work-life balance and flexibility. So that's something we are targeting now as a second step.

Sarah - 00:33:42:

Yeah, good. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

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Schneider Electric’s Digital Journey: Avoiding Common Woes and Amplifying Wins, Today and Into the Future

Episode 277

In this episode of the Unscripted podcast, host Sarah Nicastro welcomes Alban Cambournac, VP of Consulting and Digital Services at Schneider Electric, to discuss the company’s digital journey and how it is taking its lessons learned and best practices and helping its customers achieve success as well. Alban shares his lessons learned in a global career, Schneider’s being named the most sustainable company of 2024 by TIME magazine, and what he thinks of all of the AI buzz.

With over 25 years of experience in digital power, buildings, and energy management, Alban is an experienced leader at Schneider Electric, driving growth and innovation. He leverages his strong background in product marketing, strategy, and engineering to lead the US Consulting and Digital Services team, delivering value-added solutions through connected services. Alban holds an MSEE from SUPELEC and an EMBA from Vanderbilt University.

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Also, subscribe to our newsletter right here.

The Show Notes

Alban - 00:00:00:

I think Schneider Electric has always been a pioneer in the adoption of digital technologies in the domain of energy management and industrial automation. We're very focused in our strategy and applications areas. So really our future is actually focused on the adoption of these technologies and making sure that these are making an impact for every business and every people around the world, right? To make the most of the energy, our energy, to make the most of our resources.

Sarah - 00:00:35:

Hello, welcome to the UNSCRIPTED Podcast, where you'll find discussions on what matters most in service, leadership, and business transformation. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Let's jump in. Welcome to the UNSCRIPTED Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today, we're going to be taking an inside look into Schneider Electric's digital journey, talking about how to avoid common woes, amplify wins, and what that journey looks like, not only today, but into the future. I'm excited to welcome to the podcast today, Alban Cambournac, who is the Vice President of Consulting and Digital Services at Schneider. And notably, Schneider was just named this year by Time Magazine, the world's most sustainable company of 2024, which is an incredible acknowledgment. So welcome to the podcast, Alban, and thank you for being here.

Alban - 00:01:30:

Thank you for having me, Sarah. Hello to every listener.

Sarah - 00:01:33:

Yeah, and some of them may be familiar with you. You do your fair share of speaking at different industry events, and I've personally always enjoyed your sessions and looking forward to our chat today. So before we get into everything we have to cover, just tell everyone a little bit more about yourself and anything you'd like to share about your role, about Schneider, etc.

Alban - 00:01:55:

Yes, thank you so much. To get started, where is home for me? Home is in Nashville, Tennessee. Actually, I'm in our Nashville hub office. So I've lived in Nashville for about 25 years with my wife and my two sons who are now grown up and in college now. And I've worked with Schneider Electric for 25 years. I lead the consulting and digital services business. I was very, very fortunate 25 years ago when I moved to the U.S., to join a very fast-growing business focused on the digital transformation of electrical systems. And this is where my digital journey started. And I had a career both on the engineering side, but also on the global business development side with an opportunity really to travel all over the world and do business in over 50 countries. So really very, very interesting career. And on a more personal basis, I'm passionate about, a little bit some of the extreme sports a little bit, but I do quite a bit of skiing, scuba diving, started kite surfing.

Sarah - 00:02:51:

That's really fun. Yeah. The kite surfing part, I don't know. I don't know about that. I don't know. Now, I was going to say, we can see in your background that you're in Nashville, but you don't have that traditional Nashville twang. So can you just sort of talk a little bit about, I know you said you've been there 25 years, but where did your journey begin and how did you land in Nashville and end up calling that home?

Alban - 00:03:13:

Yes, yes, for sure. And this is my typical opening in keynotes that I do is I talk about the fact that I don't have that Nashville twang. Yeah, so my wife and I are actual first-generation immigrants to the U.S. we're from France originally. My hometown, for those who know a little bit about France, is Lyon. And I went to college in the Paris region. And my background, original background, is electrical engineering. The interesting story here was we were looking to move to China, actually, with my wife. And the Schneider Electric called me back and said there was a great opportunity for me in Nashville, Tennessee. And not knowing where Nashville, was on the map, we actually said, hey, this sounds like a great opportunity. And 25 years later, here we are. We never looked back and are very happy.

Sarah - 00:03:54:

That's wonderful. China, Nashville, a little different, but I'm glad that you're happy with where you ended up and have enjoyed making a home there. I've been to Nashville myself. It's a great city, but also a beautiful part of the country. When you think about doing a lot of the outdoor activities that you said you like to do, there's some great options nature-wise within a bit of a road trip from where you are. So that's really nice as well.

Alban - 00:04:18:

Absolutely.

Sarah - 00:04:19:

Done. Okay. So you mentioned that you've had the opportunity in your career to work through a lot of different countries. So you've been in a global role for about a decade. And so I'm wondering if you can just share any notable observations, I guess, one on how do you feel like having the opportunity to be in a global role has impacted you in your career and in your life? And then two, are there any observations when it comes to digitalization on commonalities, major differences? What comes to mind when you think about the global ecosystem?

Alban - 00:04:56:

Yeah, perfect. And it's a great question. And actually, I did not mention, but I spent four years in India. Very fortunate to be there with my family. And at the time, I had a chance to manage the whole Asia Pacific business development and spend actually the time in China that we wanted to spend among other countries. So this was great. One of the key benefits and understanding that I got from this experience is really an understanding of cross-cultural communications and then also how to collaborate in very diverse teams. And this is useful, of course, when you manage global businesses and global teams, but also just here in the U.S., we always work with very diverse teams. I like your question on commonalities, because what you hear often, and I hear it from business leaders or from marketers, is they think that there's like U.S., has unique needs that nobody else in the world has or China has unique needs that nobody else in the world has. And while this is true in some respect, the fact is that there are underlying common requirements that we see from the market, that we see from our customers that are pretty much global. And one of those is really around the trends around digitization that you're mentioning or sustainability as well. And the need for having reliable resilience type of business operations. All these are really common kind of themes. And you can pull a lot from these commonalities.

Sarah - 00:06:21:

Yeah, I love that because we talk a lot on this podcast about, I think we have far more in common than we do differences. Yes, there are those unique layers that are from region to region or industry to industry, but there are these common set of not only challenges, but objectives. And I just think as human beings, we have more in common than we do our differences. And I think it's really cool that you've had the opportunity throughout your career at Schneider to work in all of those different places because you learn so much. And I also think I mentioned to you when we were prepping to do this podcast together that I've had quite a few folks from Schneider on the podcast. Many of them have really good tenure with the company. And I always say that to me is evidence. Anytime someone has been... In a business today for 10, 15 plus years, it's indicative of an organization that is giving people the opportunity to grow and evolve and innovate within the business instead of feeling like they need to go somewhere else to do that. So I love that you've had those opportunities in your role. Okay. When we think about the digital landscape today, can you just start by talking a little bit about your view of what are the biggest opportunities?

Alban - 00:07:41:

Yeah, at Schneider Electric, we see two major trends around the world. And it's the need for electrification on one side and the need for digitization on the other side. And this is to help overcome some of the world's biggest challenges today around climate change, around energy transitions, where people, but also and especially businesses, need way more energy than they needed before. And there's also a global equilibrium shift that we've seen since COVID with really the need to simplify supply chains, have more local and regional kind of presence. And so these are really areas of key opportunities with the underlying also need to accelerate decarbonization. You see all these pledges for front end zero. And you mentioned the Time magazine like ranking as well. So these are very important. And we see this cross segments in the market. It's infrastructure, it's data centers, it's commercial buildings, even residentials. They're all experiencing the same disruption that is brought up by the need for more energy, but also for cleaner energy and more reliable energy. If I use one example, it's in where we see most of this is in the data center world, where the need for capacity that is linked to the explosion of generative AI and so forth is really leading to a big expansion in this area. Also, you can find in the news several. And we're building plants very close to this trend to make sure that we are building the right level of modular prefabricated type of infrastructure to help sustain this type of energy transition and doing this in a very standard way and also in a very digital way. So these require quite a bit of disruptive methods, if you were to be able to handle the uptime of these data centers, but also make them more energy efficient.

Sarah - 00:09:36:

I'm just thinking about when it comes to the customer perspective, what are some of the expectations that they have of Schneider as a digital business?

Alban - 00:09:48:

Yes, it's both in terms of being able to deliver, of course, on time these technologies, but it's also ensuring that we have a very strong foundation for cybersecurity, for data security. These are always top of mind when it comes to those expectations.

Sarah - 00:10:07:

It's interesting how within Schneider, there's this intersection of some of these major trends and themes, right? So we talked about the sustainability piece and the time recognition. We talked about electrification. We're talking about digitalization. And then obviously our focus is service as well. And there's a huge aspect of that really interesting and exciting time to be a part of the business. That being said, it's never just about the excitement or the opportunity, right? There's always hurdles and challenges that come along with modernizing the business, keeping pace with customer needs and with external situations and really having that culture of continual innovation. Can you talk a little bit about some of the challenges or hurdles and how you and the business are working through those?

Alban - 00:10:59:

Yeah, I think one of the biggest hurdles around digitization is having all the layers of a business organization, understand the importance of this digital transformation, not only at their core business process, because typically we see the first adoption of digital and AI is going to be around their core business process. But it's also looking at it from their building infrastructure or their plant infrastructure and looking at the needs here for digitization and giving the impact that they are looking for also from a sustainability standpoint. Some of these hurdles come often from a lack of information. So that's one thing that we work a lot on is on the thought leadership, of course, but it's also one to one with our customers around these conversations and then also addressing concerns about cybersecurity and data security.

Sarah - 00:11:52:

Yeah, that's probably a piece that at least in some of the events that we've attended together or that sort of thing, it isn't maybe talked about as much as it needs to be. Is that concern of in this digital world, if you want to be able to leverage the technologies that exist to provide uptime or to add value to the customer experience, it requires that connectivity and there can be some valid concerns in that regard. So how are you at Schneider kind of working through those concerns with your customers to put them at ease and to make sure that you can progress forward?

Alban - 00:12:30:

Yeah, and a lot of it sometimes is to draw parallels with their current business processes and what is the environment of cybersecurity and data security for their standard business processes. Everybody in their HR function, for example, is using some kind of a connected and online tool. And it's really showing, drawing those parallels and showing that pretty much from a building infrastructure basis, we're pretty much using the same type of technologies and approaches to cybersecurity and data security. This goes a long way in terms of addressing these concerns.

Sarah - 00:13:03:

Okay, that makes sense. Yes, it's a different application within their business, but it isn't necessarily a different world than what they're used to entirely.

Alban - 00:13:12:

Exactly.

Sarah - 00:13:13:

Okay. Now, what about the other thing that I want to talk a little bit about is the need we have as the digital transformation continues or becomes more and more refined or more and more intelligent to upskill employees to be able to navigate that world, embrace digital, and even the need for maybe different roles than we've had in the business before, that sort of thing. So when you think about that gap that can exist between how fast the digital world is moving and then how we need to keep up as businesses from a talent perspective, how do we keep pace with that? And what are some of the changes that you think companies need to consider?

Alban - 00:13:55:

Yeah, and this is a topic, we call it the digital gap. This is a topic I feel very passionate about. And because unfortunately, we really see that actually all generations, it's not a generational aspect, but all generations to some extent struggle with the digital transformation and the evolutions there. And sometimes it really starts with very simple challenges with efficiently using software applications or new technologies and new software technologies. It reminds me of very early on in my career, I was a software engineer and I read a book which was called The Inmates Are Running the Asylum by Alan Cooper. And it's a very interesting book kind of explaining why people are struggling so much with using software or using new technologies, because in the end, the people who have been designing those have not thought too much of the users they're looking at, right? And not everybody is an expert. There's a definite digital gap. And it comes also by sometimes having a lack of access to learning or even sometimes the motivation to learn about these critical new skills, be it digital, be it AI, be it cybersecurity. So one thing we do at Schneider Electric, for example, we're very fortunate to have excellent learning platforms that we use, both internal and external learning platforms, and where we put really programs towards digital upskilling. And now not only about... And all topics are digital, right? And we cover cybersecurity. Of course, we cover all the type of AI and other types of key, also ethical conducts. It's very important in this environment. So we have a full digital citizenship program and we call it Digital Boost. And we're really looking at what is our baseline of competencies here and what is the digital gap and then getting... And our goal is to get over 90% of all our employees worldwide to really undergo this digital upskilling. And this is actually something that we report on Schneider sustainability impact. So it's available externally as well. And it's part of that program to have the digital upskilling. So there's a real motivation and excitement that goes with this and is an example on how to address this digital gap.

Sarah - 00:16:07:

I was just thinking as you were explaining some of the things that program covers, there's, depending on the role within the business you're talking about, there's areas where an employee is really going to need to learn to use a new tool, right? They're going to need to have a fundamental change to how they perform their role. But then there are these other topics that they might not need to be personally firsthand involvement in, but they need to have an acumen about. So cybersecurity, you might have, if we just think about a field service engineer, they might not be directly involved in anything related to how Schneider puts its cybersecurity practices in place and all of that. But if they're on site and a customer says, but what are you doing from a cybersecurity perspective? And they just say, I mean, that's not going to give the impression you want to give of having at least that baseline knowledge and that acumen to be able to understand. The concepts and understand the approach, even if it is outside of their core role. So I think that whole idea of providing actual upskilling in skill where it's needed, but also providing context and knowledge beyond that person's role is really important to help them understand that bigger picture and to help them engage appropriately with customers as well.

Alban - 00:17:30:

And for us, it's an essential knowledge for everybody in the company. And it includes our field service people. It also includes our executives, right? We call it essentials training. Everybody goes through this every year with a very big focus around this topic.

Sarah - 00:17:47:

Yeah. Now, are there any roles that you see on the rise that as the business evolves throughout its digital journey, are there new roles that are becoming more prominent or that you're thinking about how the business will need to hire for those things, etc.?

Alban - 00:18:04:

The more we have roles at the intersection of the business application, but also a very strong understanding of the IT environment. And it's able to bring these two elements together is an area that we're looking for. Connectivity, cybersecurity on one side, and then also data analytics and AI on the other side. These are some of the two critical type of roles that for our digital connected services, we're really looking to strengthen.

Sarah - 00:18:34:

Yeah, you didn't necessarily say it this way, but just to sort of paraphrase, you made mention of the fact that digital transformation is not just an IT initiative. It's a business initiative, right? And so to your point, we have to bring those worlds together in a way that everyone can get on the same page and find the path to what's most valuable, etc. So that makes sense. Okay, so when you think of the big wins at Schneider, so stories of connected customers that you feel the company has executed very well, what stands out from those stories in terms of is there a common through line or is there a common approach? Like what helps take all of these things we're talking about conceptually and make it a success in reality?

Alban - 00:19:28:

Yes, at Schneider Electric and in our business, we manage millions of assets worldwide with connected customers in the U.S. and in the rest of the world. There's a few common elements to winning and to having a great relationship. And first, it comes from really having a known sponsor in our customer organization who's really getting it and is able to transmit this vision and is helping the digital transformation at our customer company. The second one, and we mentioned it, is really having both the business contact and business relationship, but also the buy-in and working very closely with the IT department. So that both on the business side and the IT side, we have a strong understanding of what is the vision, what are we trying to achieve. And when you have this recipe of sponsorship and then putting at the same table the business and the IT, then you are able to... Overcome those hurdles that we talked about. And now you are able to really have some very, very nice stories. And for us, it's all about ensuring reliability and resilience of an infrastructure. And so we have plenty of success stories there where we have remote engineers, remote agents looking and identifying changes in the patterns and behaviors of, for example, an electrical system. And it's able to quickly contact the facility and the customer and say, hey, we have noticed a change. And we're able to dispatch, for example, our field service representatives before it becomes an issue. And an issue can be a power outage, which causes big business impact and lost revenue. But it can be worse and it can some situations can lead to fire and all this, with much bigger consequences there. So really, we have plenty of stories from these assets that we manage around the world of being able to really anticipate and then predict some type of behaviors and address these concerns.

Sarah - 00:21:27:

Yeah, yeah. No, that's great. And I think understanding what that recipe looks like for success in any business is really important to being able to not only replicate it, but recreate it as circumstances change in the technology that is accessible or what the customer needs are, etc. When we hear stories of digital gone wrong, I've heard plenty of these at some of the events we've both been at. Do you feel like there are any common missteps or mistakes that companies are making today with the approach they're taking to digital transformation?

Alban - 00:22:06:

Yeah, you can pretty much take the opposite of the win characteristic I just mentioned. And things go wrong typically when there's a lack of understanding and a lack of adoption of those digital technologies, taking too much of a weight attitude, which can have some consequences, and also the lack of planning around IT and cybersecurity. So that's where things can go wrong a little bit. And I think one story I had mentioned in one of my keynotes was the story we have of working with a facility manager in Mexico and introducing these technologies to be able to do continuous type of thermal monitoring, for example, where you monitor the temperature of equipment or electrical infrastructure. And unfortunately, that site didn't adopt the technology fast enough. And there was a big event, right, where with power outages and major business revenue loss and all this, and really this resulted, I mean, just the business, the power outage and not having the revenue, but also it cost a job to this facility manager and for not having adopted and having the technology in place to be able to prevent this type of things from happening, that's areas where taking a wait and see type of attitude can be problematic versus the success stories we talked about earlier.

Sarah - 00:23:22:

Yeah. No, it's interesting the idea of, I totally agree with you, the wait and see approach can be detrimental. At the same time, the other thing I see companies do is they want to race so quickly to get to the most sophisticated use cases of the technology without getting some of the fundamentals in place. And that can be problematic as well. And I think a lot of that stems from the point you brought up, which is, are the stakeholders aligned? Is everyone on the same page about what the digital journey needs to look like and how the company is going to achieve those objectives? Because if we're looking at it as just an IT initiative, it's going to fail. We have to be thinking about it as that overall view.

Alban - 00:24:06:

Can we see, if I can complement what you're saying, we really work on our relationship with our customers to really be those trusted partners, right? And we go over this setting up these foundations to be able to have success in the adoption of these technologies.

Sarah - 00:24:22:

Yeah, for sure. Now, one of the areas I think companies are either racing ahead to or rolling their eyes at is AI. It's coming up everywhere, headlines, podcasts, events, a lot of hype. I'm curious your perspective on the topic of AI and is it worthy of all the buzz? Is it overhyped in any way? What is your take?

Alban - 00:24:45:

Yeah, and as anybody, I'm sure, you know, I'm spending a lot of time these days learning more about AI and also like using it on a daily basis pretty much. It's an interesting question. I would draw maybe a parallel and maybe I'm going to date myself here, but to the internet, right? End of the 1990s, you had a foundation, a technical foundation, right, of the emergence of the Internet and all this. And a lot of hype around all the applications that you could have on this. And there were a lot of startup companies and all this and a few ended up thriving and then but many ended up not continuing. And I think it's sort of the same thing with AI, right? You have a baseline of technology and the disruption that this technology is bringing to the market. And then on top of that very sound foundation that is here to stay, of course, you have a lot of different experiments of different startups applying AI to different areas. And then figuring out what is going to work and what is not going to work. So I think we're going to see a little bit of this, but it's a revolution. It's a foundational technological that change that just like the Internet is going to be the basis for every transactions in the future.

Sarah - 00:25:57:

Yeah, no, that makes sense. I agree. So when you think about what the next five years might hold, what do you envision for Schneider's digital journey?

Alban - 00:26:07:

This has been really some of the great experiences that I've had, like joining Schneider Electric 25 years ago. And I think Schneider Electric has always been a pioneer in the adoption of digital technologies in the domain of energy management and industrial automation. We're very focused in our strategy and applications areas. So really, our future is actually focused on the adoption of these technologies and making sure that these are making an impact for every business and every people around the world. To make the most of the energy, our energy, to make the most of our resources. That's what we're very excited about. And that's why I'm very excited about to work at Schneider Electric and with our customers to really leverage digital AI applied to energy management, applied to industrial automation and improving sustainability and efficiency overall.

Sarah - 00:26:59:

And you have that TIME magazine recognition that you have to uphold and continue to defend. So that's important work to do, though. And you can feel good about coming to work every day and making an impact.

Alban - 00:27:11:

A lot of it comes from doing this inside Schneider Electric and applying these principles of sustainability inside Schneider Electric, but also helping our customers and helping the societies apply the same things that we're also applying internally. So it's kind of this combination of things that makes Schneider Electric pretty unique.

Sarah - 00:27:31:

Yeah, yeah. 25 years with the company, and we talked about some of the different roles that you've held, a lot of the different places that you've had the opportunity to work. What would you say is the biggest lesson you've learned over your career thus far?

Alban - 00:27:48:

Yeah, and actually our conversation around the adoption, right, of digital technology and the wait and see. I think one of my biggest carolists and maybe a summarize in a quote I always use from Michael Jordan. He says, some people want it to happen. Some people wish it would happen. And then others make it happen. You always want to be on the side of those who make it happen and building a reputation for service excellence while forking the talk. So that's really has been the focus of my career is to really understand what people wish or want to happen. And then really applying myself and my teams and my businesses to making these strategies and visions happen. Now, I have also a more personal example is my wife and I have learned to leverage the power of two. So we've led parallel careers our entire life. Together, we've accumulated like 50 years of professional career. And so we have supported each other through the ups and downs of having two, ever challenging roles and also building a family. So that's another aspect of more personal of the career lessons.

Sarah - 00:28:51:

The power of two. I like that. Yeah. As someone who is still in the thick of it, and my kids are almost eight and nine right now. So it's we're still doing all of that. And you definitely need that support. It makes a huge difference.

Alban - 00:29:03:

Absolutely.

Sarah - 00:29:05:

Alban, thank you so much for coming on and sharing. I really like the Michael Jordan quote, and I think it is really important today to walk the talk, like you said. There's always going to be challenges and hurdles, but the companies that use those as excuses, consciously or subconsciously, to stand still, are very, very quickly falling critically behind. So there's ever more reason to take action, like you said, and work through the challenges and figure it out. So I love that perspective and appreciate you coming on and sharing.

Alban - 00:29:39:

No, and really appreciate our conversation. And thanks again for having me. And I really love your podcast. So congratulations on running a very, very successful podcast.

Sarah - 00:29:49:

Thank you so much. I appreciate it. And it was a pleasure. You can find more by visiting the home of the UNSCRIPTED podcast at www.futureoffieldserviceref.ifs.com. The podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thank you for listening.

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Episode Highlights:

[04:04] - Before adopting a new technology, the biggest pain points for Electrolux were inefficiencies and lack of visibility in field operations. Jelle and his team planned technician schedules but couldn't track progress or respond to cancellations effectively, leading to wasted time and frustrated staff. By implementing the IFS service management solution, they connected their systems, improved resource planning, and minimized travel time, allowing technicians to focus on their strengths.
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[28:13] - Maximizing resource utilization offers exciting potential through creative solutions like online training platforms and stock-taking tools. By encouraging technicians to use idle time for short refresher courses or inventory checks, businesses can enhance efficiency and productivity. Exploring and sharing best practices with other companies can reveal even more opportunities to optimize and make the most of every resource.

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Full Show Notes

Sarah: Hello, welcome to the UNSCRIPTED Podcast, where you'll find discussions on what matters most in service, leadership, and business transformation. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Let's jump in. So before we get into it, I know we did our brief introductions, but tell everyone a little bit more about yourself, the business, whatever you want to share.

Clinten: Just easy to understand. I'm Clinten. I'm South African, and it's not a Dutch surname, it's an Afrikaans surname. So born in South Africa, grew up educated. Straight after school, I thought the best career for me would be in accounting. So I started accounting and then found out it's pretty boring and then started looking and then obviously entering the service industry. Worked in various industries from auto glass right through to building glass applications, architectural, then in aerospace, where I worked for quite a number of years in aerospace and defense industry. And back in 2016, moving up to Germany, where I currently reside with my family and now working for TOMRA. Joined TOMRA Recycling just a little bit two years ago. Very exciting industry to be in. TOMRA is a Norwegian company, provide different types of applications. It's on a collection side, for the ones of you that live in Germany or Netherlands, when you take your fund back to the shopping centers, those machines are coming from our collection division. We are on the recycling side. We actually provide sensor-based NIR technology type equipment that waste management companies use to sort different types of plastics, paper, which is quite trendy at the moment, especially from sustainability point of view. But also a very fast-growing type of industry that we see, especially due to regulate changes and sustainability is a major priority for a lot of corporations at the current moment.

Sarah: Okay. Just to frame our conversation for today, we spoke this morning about the move to outcomes-based service. You and I talked about the concept of aftermarket as an afterthought. That tends to be true in a lot of organizations where they still use that terminology of aftermarket service. A lot of times, aftermarket and afterthought can be synonyms. And for TOMRA, where are you at in that journey? And how are you thinking about, as a business, how are you viewing and thinking about service?

Clinten: Maybe I'll go back. I think a lot of us know in the 90s, they actually said, there's no place for field service going forward. Just due to the fact that people will manufacture stuff, they'll throw it away, buy a new one, manufacture, throw away. Guess what? It's actually been completely the opposite. And I think that's what's making it exciting. Although a lot of companies are still stuck in that traditional way of thinking. The mindset is still traditional, the culture is still set up in such a way that it's not really driving that change. We're still looking at processes that are still designed for just call Mr. Or Mrs. Fix-It, I'll go fix it, and everything goes well. When I joined TOMRA, because of the growth of the industry, I remember my EVP said to me during the, because I asked him, where do you want me to focus on first? And the first focus was catching up because the market was growing so fast. It was selling so many units and service took too long to actually transform. When I started, the first thing I started doing was looking at our organization and looking at how do we actually get a compelling vision and mission that we can design within the organization that looks sexy, that looks accommodating, that we can bring service more to the forefront. I got my team together. Some of my team members are here today as well. Got the team together and we started hammering it out. What does a mission look like? What does our customers want? What does the organization want? How do we embed everything within our DNA? Like, how do we do this? And this is why we started then with our mission, which is really a good tool for you to use as well internally and driving that mindset change of it's not aftermarket, afterthought. Service should be on the forefront of driving everything because we are involved in every facet of a business, although we are very complex. So if you speak to a CEO or CFO, they don't want to understand because it's too complex. So how do we actually change that mindset of making it a little bit more in bite-size? Not be too detailed or in the weeds, daily weeds, but really taking that back to your organization and then sharing that and also sharing the good news of what service really means.

Sarah: Yeah. And I think part of that complexity that people don't necessarily want to understand is that it's intangible. It's a lot easier to understand the products, the line items. It's a lot harder to understand the intangible value of service and everything that can represent. When you came in and you started trying to set the strategic vision, what were the biggest hurdles you faced when it comes to the legacy mentality or culture?

Clinten: Changing that mindset, I think, was in some cases a culture shock for different parts of the organization. What is really nice about service, and I think you all can resonate very well on that, is the fact that we are quite resilient and we're quite adaptable to change. Service is the easy one to convince. The most more difficult is that's upper-level management, your sales teams, your operation teams, your R&D teams, because there comes the tricky part. And you're 100% right. It is a complex organization. But if I look at 2019 BC, before Corona, companies didn't really think of service in such a way as a real revenue driver and as the unique selling point for your products. And when COVID happened, actually, companies then started switching around. And I know one of the companies before this total service revenue was only 30% of their total annual revenue. When COVID hit, it became 55% of annual revenue. Suddenly, the CEO started now understanding what service means and why service is very important, especially for a sustainable business platform. And I think this is really the tricky point. For me, it was more of how do we design that strategy? How do we break it down, you said, in smaller pieces that is understandable for the organization? Because if you come up with a big area, you are going to lose your audience. This is where we looked at, this is our strategy that we want to achieve over five years. And I'll get to my 10-year aspirations. And how did we break that down to come into what is our strategic priorities for this year? Small five, maximum five strategic priorities, which each of my direct report owns. And I have cross-functional support to drive that. And through that, we actually have a win situation. And we tick the box. Great. This is now in. We fixed the baseline in certain areas. Now we can grow and develop. Next year, we get together. We start doing the next strategic for that next second year to build further. And I think this is really important. Don't be too far. Otherwise, you lose the audience.

Sarah: Yeah. When we chatted, Clinten. you said when it comes to setting strategy, you want to think about what is aggressive, but attainable, inspiring, but relatable. Can you talk a little bit about looking at your remit through that frame and any advice you have on what strategy setting works that meets those criteria? Like, how do you achieve those objectives when you're laying something out? Obviously, you're talking about one year at a time, five things max. Any other advice for making it? Aggressive, but attainable, inspiring, but relatable.

Clinten: Again, a lot of the information that we get from customers are filtering through from our service organizations. A field service engineer sees a customer seven times more than a salesperson in a year timeframe. It's a known fact. And this information needs to come back to the organization. You need that information to build that strategy on where the areas are. Also need to fully understand where are your weaknesses. And weaknesses is a fantastic thing. I think in a previous service event, somebody brought up that, how will you improve if you don't know where you are going wrong? And that's really important because using that information, put the improvements in place and then convincing customers that things are working and working with those customers. Once your customer is your best speaking partner for the rest of the organization, when there's trade shows, I can share that we had a previous trade show and we only had good comments with what is happening in service and they speak to all, at all levels of the organization, so these customer feedback is absolutely important, and that really helps you to get that strategy in place and then get buy-in from others. Look, there's something happening within service that actually places you a little bit more on the forefront. And it helps them with the influencing. And it also helps me now to, as I said, quite an aggressive timeline for my 2035 vision. It helps me already to influence our board on what is going to be our investment needed over the next 10 years to reach that. And again, not just coming and say, I need 20 million investment in service. It's really just, listen, next year, maybe we have a million. The year after that, just chipping away at it. And then using that, as you said, as your business case starts growing.

Sarah: You might know you want 20 million over the course of however long, but you're not putting that all out there at one time. You're making it more digestible by having your bigger strategy, but sharing in a more pragmatic manner. I love the point you made about weaknesses. I always say the only difference between, challenge and opportunity is perception. And I think the same is, could be said between weaknesses and growth, right? If you can understand where you're weak, it gives you the opportunity to grow and be better. If you turn a blind eye to those weaknesses, you don't have that opportunity to improve and to evolve.

Clinten: Just to add to that, Sarah, the thing for me is, we all know SWOT analysis. I turn around and call it a toes analysis, which means rather focus on the threats as well as the weaknesses than on your strengths is important. You need to keep that as a baseline. Your opportunities will come at the end of the day, but really focus on the TO area, because that for me is really where it will help. What is the threats coming in from the market? And especially what I do quite often is, I do quite a bit of benchmarking, looking at benchmarking reports from different service industries, which really help you to see into the future what is coming. And we know there's a wave of skill shortages, people not, you can't find skills anymore. I mean, there's a lot of, everybody of us here today probably have field service roles open that we can't fill. In some cases, more than a year open. And this is threat that's coming to us as service industry. But we, instead of us just going, trying to hammer out the traditional way of let's get hiring, let's pay people more, let's do this more. Instead, what is it that we're going to do to really adapt to this? Because if the skills are not there in 10 years, you're going to be selling the machine, but you're not going to get the service. And just imagine you that are also a customer, if you buy a car, you best car on the market, want to pay top dollar, but you're unable to get a service technician to fix the thing for you. This is something that keeps me awake at night.

Sarah: Can you talk about your North Star process and the importance of that?

Clinten: Our industry is extremely fast growing, fast paced, as I mentioned before. And it's really a fantastic industry to be in. We talk with a lot of people, sustainability is important. Having circularity built in, in everything we use is extremely important. Although if you get onto the ground level where our people work, where our customers work, it's filtering through the waste that we generate every single day. Then it's not that sexy anymore, right? Although you're doing a fantastic job, you're doing a great job in terms of helping customers to sort through, turning that waste into a value for them, as well as building in that circularity. So it's fantastic. However, skill sets as well as people are lacking. And how I looked at this is we need to change. Because even we run a lot of university events where we want to attract new talent. And we speak to people. First, people, when I come to your field service, first question, can I work flexible work hours? A hundred percent. And it's, yeah, you can. But if you are three weeks in a field sorting out a customer site, you can't come home two days after that and tell the customer we'll come back again in three days time. It's not sustainable. But this is the viewpoint. And that made me think of how do we adapt rather than adapting to that? So I use the phrase always. How do I make sure that I have a field service engineer, to support the industry 24 by 7, working at their own flexible time, sitting in a coffee shop with their flip flops on fixing a machine? How do we get to that? And that's where I set the North Star. Our North Star vision is really related to how can we make things more sustainable for service? How can we make things more sustainable for our customers? Also giving a bit more leverage to our customers that we are a 24/7 organization, but not be able to parachute an FSE every five minutes onto a site because skill sets are not there or the people will not be there. So this is where we set the strategy that by 2035 will be fully digital, which is very ambitious. I know. And when I had that conversation and I shared that with our sales team, the eyes went, but as I mentioned before, the challenge is that we are going to have these, we don't want to sit in 10 years time selling machines, but unable to support our customer.

Sarah: Yeah. And you have to think big going back to the title of the session and some of what I spoke about this morning, if you are only focusing on incremental improvement, you're not going to be where you need to be 10 years from now. How would you describe the role and importance of storytelling in your process of setting the vision and then creating the influence to sort of get people on board with that vision and help you ultimately execute?

Clinten: Maybe a question, when you have customer, let's say customer compliance, normally it's the rooftop every time it comes through right up to the CEO level sometimes. But how many of us do share good customer comments coming back for that CEO? That's where it starts already. Start influencing there at your senior leadership team, sharing the good news. And I can tell you it's turned around already that we have about more than five good compliments come through. We have maybe one escalation now that gets top level. Escalations will happen. In any organization, it will happen. Something will go wrong. But we should not have that negativity towards what service need to fix this. And this mindset, I had to change for myself because in my previous organization, actually, I had some skip level discussions with some of our senior VPs. And I went to our HR VP and we asked her, what do you think of service? Straight question. And the question of the report back was, I think it's our get out of jail free card. That's really compelling to tell that to your people that you are only here to get the company out of sticky situations. That's not what service should be. We're not a get-out-of-jail-free card. We should be really in the forefront of using that success stories that we have and using that influencing skills and market ourselves. Also, what I've seen is we are all weak and I count myself in. I don't have marketing skills. I think I should have done an MBA on marketing. I should have because we need to market ourselves much better. And this is something that I'm adapting to at the moment is looking at how can we get marketing in place. And I know larger organizations already had a transition to have marketing individuals, service marketing already embedded within their service. But I think this is really also a key point in terms of how do you develop? How do you put service aldi? Because I can tell you in future, we will see that capital investments will become more scarcer. And you're going to see as a service will be taking a much more forefront because we see that in our organization. If you have as in as a service, you actually have more control over that product because then you look at sustainability. How can you get some of the components back? Do refurbishment on it. Send it back in, which lowers your costs, which helps the environment and which drives a lot of areas of modularity as well as if you design something that's modular, you don't need to send somebody there to fix it. Ask the customer to plug and play, send the old one back. You have a repair center. That's the type of thinking that you need to think. But it's one of the things that we do in TOMRA very well is our service department is embedded from gate zero process in our product planning, which is extremely important that you have a service individual there that can ask to keep on reminding people. How would you think we need to service that? Just questions like this so that you actually can start designing equipment that's serviceable and sustainable for the future. And it can actually help you drive some of that strategy, so.

Sarah: I think the point you make about marketing is really interesting and important because going back to the point about storytelling. So I think storytelling is a really important skill, not only in marketing, but especially in marketing. But when you think about how this applies to service, there's a few different facets. So one is related to what you're talking about in terms of sharing those good stories along with the escalations, which, as you mentioned, are going to happen because you want to tell a more accurate story of what service means to the business. It isn't just the problems. It isn't just the get-out-of-jail-free card. It's all of these good things as well. That's how you end up telling the story of the potential and the possibility and the growth opportunity, etc. There's this storytelling component that you as a function have to do upward to get the investment you need, etc. Then there's the storytelling aspect to the market, to the customers, probably where you're thinking about the marketing. And this is a really big challenge in this space because we tend to not have a marketing function. So we go to market in internal language. I will never forget a conversation I had with a gentleman a few years ago. He was so frustrated and I felt for him so much. But he was saying, we've invested in IoT, but none of our customers want to buy it. Because they're going to market saying we've invested in IoT and here's why you should care. The customer doesn't care. They're taking their internal language and trying to sell it externally. And it's a failure every time. It's the same thing. It's just, again, flipping the narrative. You need to be able to think about, here's what we're doing internally, which we have to educate ourselves on. But what that means to our customers externally is what we need to go to market with. And then you have storytelling from the perspective of the talent landscape. How are you telling the story of what it means to work for your business today and in the future? How are you creating a compelling story that people who don't know what field service is, will want to buy into and become a part of? So it is an incredibly important skill. And I think your point about marketing is a good one because there's a lot of different applications for that skill set to help leverage the different places you need to be telling those stories, not just with the customers, but beyond that.

Clinten: And Sarah, that's the biggest killer for any strategy or losing gravitas in a business is once you fail. Once a customer says, service is presenting something, it means nothing to me as a customer. And that negativity then goes back to the organization again. Then you start losing that innovation, especially in service, where you want actually people to be more innovative.

Sarah: Yeah. Going back to your big vision for 2035, I want to break this out into a couple components. So you mentioned that you believe as a service is going to be the future for TOMRA. And I just want to kind of reinforce some of the things that you touched on in terms of how you think about your... I can't remember how you worded it, but your technician sitting in the coffee shop and flip-flops doing their work, right? I'm sure for some people that sounds far-fetched, but it isn't necessarily, right? And so I think this idea of as a service, right, maintaining ownership. The other benefit of that, if you remember what I spoke about this morning is, if you maintain ownership of those assets, you avoid the issue with not being physically on site to do service, right? Because at that point, when you're maintaining that ownership, it doesn't matter how you're guaranteeing the uptime or doing what needs to be done. The customer is paying you for the uptime, not the how of it, right? A lot of times, it's when we're trying to implement some of these technologies that allow for that 2035 vision for the technician, under a more traditional relationship, then we start to run into some barriers. So anything else you would say you're thinking about that is going to be key to making that 2035 vision come to life?

Clinten: Yeah, this is really the trick question. How do we get there? We are really looking at what is our customers' challenge and pain points today. And our customers are faced with similar issues. They also have engineering staff on site. They also have a churn of staff coming in, coming out. Skills are dropping. And I know, speaking to customers, they're looking at the future of having fully autonomous waste management plants. Just imagine everything dropped off, everything runs through. Somebody sits at home with a mobile phone just looking at the production process. And that's how we want to look at it. Because it is going to be a challenge to have the tangible. They pay, break and fix. Somebody arrives, speaks to the customer and replace that with the intangible of you actually having that proactive support that can actually give a heads up to somebody that something will go wrong and then obviously commercialize this. And this is part of our incremental steps that we are going to bring in. We're already looking at there are some more tougher regions. We're due to safety concerns, which you don't want to send people. And this is actually an ideal area for us to start using this as a proof of concept for us and start building this out over the next 10 years. But I think it's really just using that information coming in. But you need to have the right digital tools and you need to have the right processes in place. A lot of areas, making sure that you have a lot of automation in your processes. If you don't have that basics grant work done, any tool will fail. Any application that you will implement will fail. So that's basically where we are focusing on making it more standardized, easier to adapt, not over killing it, because I also speak to a lot of organizations where they have every tool under the sun, every applications, but nothing speaks to each other. So I don't know what's worse, not having it or having it. But this is where you really need to be careful of using something very quickly. Go too big, too fast. But at the same token is really just using the customer experience to drive some of this. And again, who's going to stand against, you know, an organization if customer needs something and you can provide that solution to them.

Sarah: What's interesting, Clinten, and something you said made me think of this. So you were talking about the difference in this world where in a break fix environment, everything's very visible. The technician shows up to fix what's wrong. They interact with the people, they leave. I don't think that's what a customer wants. They want the outcome. Right. But we're very accustomed to that physical experience. Okay. So one of the things that's interesting about the shift to outcomes for me is we talk a lot about like the customer wants ease. They want simplicity. They want peace of mind. They want the outcome. But they don't only want that. Right. Because the outcome is intangible and invisible. Really, if it's just always there, it's just always happening. So they actually want the outcome and they also want insights into how the outcome is achieved. So it comes back to storytelling in the sense of as you work toward that 2035 vision. You need to be thinking about how do we achieve the outcome in this new way of working and this new customer relationship. But how do we use storytelling to show the customer the value that we're ensuring, protecting, providing. Even though they don't see us doing it. Because they're not going to want to pay you if they don't have that context. They want the context. It just needs to be very simple and it needs to be in their terms. So we avoided X amount of downtime through this technology. We eliminated the need for an onsite repair through this, right? And understanding to your part earlier, what's the cost associated with that to them? And how can you then illustrate the value you're providing their business, even though they're not seeing you doing it? It's really interesting to me that we have to think not just about our ability to provide the outcome, but our capability to showcase in very simple value-oriented terms, how we've done that. So the customers understand where their investment is going.

Clinten: So in the aerospace defense industry, customers there were very much about uptime. So we had to sign up to service level agreement with 99% uptime availability, 15 minutes response, one five-minute response and a three-hour repair time. That's how critical it was to them. Just because and they only pay for throughput, throughput through the machine, how quickly and how is the safest way they could get a check-in luggage onto an airplane identified, fully secure. And that was the outcome that was there. Although it had the challenges where you couldn't connect to an airport remotely. So you actually had to throw people at this. But that taught me a lot of things in terms of what is the outcome that customers want. And this is what I've seen. In TOMRA, they require only uptime availability at the highest level. When I say level, sorting capacity. If something drops below a certain threshold, machine should be giving a signal through. This material dropping below this, you get a technician remotely to change the parameters slightly up. You send a quick report to the customer, say, Mr. Customer, just to let you know, you don't even know. Customers don't even know that this has happened. This is your percentage back again. And that's how we want to try to change the intangible is really sharing that a customer can see they get much better yield from the waste that goes through their plants. That's a few basics. But it's really just in our case, customers don't care if they only care about is that machine available? Is that machine available? Is it running? Is it running at their highest available parameters that's needed to get a better yield for them? Yes, they enjoy that. When I pick up the phone, I want to have the FSE there. With a service level agreement or without a service level agreement? They just want that machine to be fixed. And I think this is where we also need to think of, I see this as value add for customer at the end of the day. I think we all charge our customers, travel, accommodation, plus then the labor hours on site, plus this. Imagine you go to a customer and say, instead of me investing in Lufthansa, I'm not charging you, but you will pay for the hours that we actually do this proactive service for you. And that's where it comes down to, is really saving money and cost to our customers, that overall total cost of ownership, but getting to a place where you can actually put on a piece of paper that you're guaranteeing a certain level of uptime availability, being that 99% according to this target.

Sarah: Okay, you said just around two years, you've been in this role and you're creating this vision, you're working toward shifting the mindset, navigating the culture, managing change. I have to imagine there could be hard days, days where you might feel like you're fighting an uphill battle or anything like that. How do you stay positive and motivated to continue to push toward that vision?

Clinten: If you are frustrated with things quickly, you should not be in service. That's my advice. We are in service because we have a lot of resilience. Even if it is whatever happens in organization, you need to stay cool, calm, relaxed, and make sure that things happen. If you're unable to do that, like I said, then I would go back being a bookkeeper or an accounting department. I think this is one of the key learnings for me. And on top of this is, yes, there are frustrating days when things doesn't go according to plan. Yes, there are frustration in terms of some decisions that's been made that you haven't, but you need to adapt to it. You need to maybe just give that some thought. I think very younger in my career, I was one of the type of service managers that will take on everything. And I think I was the guy with that cape on. And if something goes wrong, I will make sure it gets fixed. And as I progressed through my career, one of my mentors said to me, you know what? You are too deep in the weeds. And because you are so good at what you are doing, you'll never move up in your career. But in the weeds is where I'm comfortable. That's where I am. Yes, it makes frustrated, but the most rewarding is getting something back on track, getting a customer to say, oh, fantastic work, Clinten. Yes, we had a problem, but you guys have sorted everything out. That was rewarding. Ultimately, what I also try and encourage my service team is don't get too stuck in that daily weeds because then you're starting to really losing perspective of the bigger picture. You have to take time out. And this is what I'm doing. I take enough time out to actually look at things. Are we progressing? How are we going according to our business plan? Asking questions, speaking to different people in the organization. And if I get really frustrated, I go see customers that are very happy with our service. It's also good to speak to those customers and just get a positive view back again.

Sarah: I think it's a really important point. And it sounds very simple. You have to keep time to look at the innovative things and think ahead. It's not easy to do at all, though. It is very easy to get consumed by the needs of the business today and just lose that track of time where you need to be thinking ahead. And so I think, though, you making time for that and you prioritizing that balance is what will be the difference between you hitting that 2035 vision and another company not being where you will be at that point, because it is incredibly important.

Clinten: It's also important to keep on transforming yourself. Prior, like I said, 2019 BC, I think this photo was, I think, taken then I was about 120 kilograms. And when COVID started striking, I still did work remotely from home, but I actually started running. Now, just imagine, I was 120 kilos. When I say running, I was walking 10 meters and then running five meters. But it progressed over time. I would have never thought I'm a runner, but today I'm running. I looked at my own health mentality, all of this type of areas, and it actually then starts helping you to think much more clearer of what it is that you want to set up. I think it's really, really important. Otherwise, we as service get pulled into the weeds too deep, too much, makes you frustrated. It doesn't give you job satisfaction. And you really need to look at, and then people start seeing that because they see that you are stressed. They see that you are under the cushion. And then nobody wants to kind of speak to service because they're scared you bite their heads off. So if you actually start transforming that much higher, keep the positivity, suddenly your CEO says, that's quite, I'm surprised that service is actually showing much more positivity in an organization. So it really starts from the top.

Sarah: Yeah, and I think if you want to be able to maintain that resilience in what you're trying to accomplish at work, you need to take care of yourself. You have to prioritize that as well. Clinten, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

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Episode 274

In this episode of the Unscripted podcast, host Sarah Nicastro welcomes Teresa Carneiro, Field Service Engineer at STEMCELL Technologies, for a conversation about what drew her to field service, what she enjoys about the FSE role, the realities of being a young woman in field service, and her perspective on how her career might evolve.

Teresa, a 24-year-old from Portugal, recently completed her master's degree in biomedical engineering following a bachelor's in the same field. Due to limited career opportunities in Portugal, she sought work abroad and aimed for Germany. For the past five months, Teresa has been working as a field service engineer in Munich for STEMCELL Technologies.

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Full Show Notes

Teresa: I guess I can say as a young person's perspective that the companies that are investing in creating flexibility and creative environments and that are promoting professional but personal growth as well and that provide a safe space for learning are definitely on the right track. Believing in young people and their skills is crucial as is giving them a chance even if there are other candidates with more experience. We've all been there, everyone needs their first opportunity to show their worth. And ultimately the companies that claim that they are working hard to attract this new talent hold significant power, and including the younger generation.

Sarah: Welcome to the UNSCRIPTED Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. I'm really excited about our episode today because we're going to be diving inside the mind of the new talent that you all are seeking. I had the pleasure to meet today's guest at the Future of Field Service live event in Cologne in June, and it was wonderful to have her there to get her perspective, but also to see the people flocking to her and offering her jobs. I'm excited to welcome to today's podcast, Teresa Carneiro, who is a Field Service Engineer at STEMCELL Technologies. Teresa, welcome to the podcast.

Teresa: Thank you so much, Sarah. I would first like to thank you for inviting me for your podcast and for working so hard to give young women a voice in this industry.

Sarah: It's my pleasure.

Teresa: So I can start speaking a bit about me?

Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. Tell anything you want to share about yourself, your background, and then we'll get into some of the points about how you landed in field service and what you're enjoying about it.

Teresa: Sure. To begin with, I am 24 years old and I'm from Portugal. And previously, I've just been finishing my master's degree in biomedical engineering. And before that, I've done a bachelor's in the same area. And unfortunately, in Portugal, it isn't very appealing for young people that want to start their career right now. I've only looked for jobs outside of Portugal, and my goal was to work in Germany. Currently, I've been working as a field service engineer, as you mentioned, in Munich for the past almost five months now in a company based in Vancouver, Canada called STEMCELL Technologies, which is mainly focused in improving research reliability and making researchers' life easier overall.

Sarah: Okay, excellent. What was interesting about you attending the Cologne event specifically for folks that are listening that weren't with us in person, we had a session with Daniel Turnbull from Thermo Fisher Scientific. And Daniel's actually been on the podcast before. So if any of you wanted to go back and listen to his interview, you could. But he was there to talk about some of the very specific steps that Thermo Fisher has taken beginning in Germany to improve diversity in their field force, and specifically to bring more women into field engineer roles. And so it just was very serendipitous that you were in the audience because you were able to kind of lend some firsthand perspective and so I reached out to Teresa after the event and said, our audience as a whole is working toward that objective and really struggling to figure out the best ways to bring in young talent to bring in more diversity to bring in women specifically. And so I know that they would value hearing from your firsthand experience. So here we are. So as you said, you've been in your field service engineer role now for about five months. So the first thing I want to talk about is, what attracted you to this role and this work?

Teresa: I think I would like to start by saying that one thing that I felt that was really lacking throughout my whole university experience was having some real examples of what it is possible to do after you finish your studies. And of course, you can do your own research, but having real life examples and people to talk about how their daily life actually looks like gives you a much clearer idea of what your own life can look like if you choose that path, but short story short, I had a friend that was working as a field service engineer. And when he described it to me, I thought that might be something that I really like to do, actually. This would give me the opportunity to travel, to be exposed to different environments. And it seemed like the type of job that is different every day, which for me was really appealing. And so that idea, I guess, just persisted on my mind. And when I graduated, I only searched and applied for these kind of roles. And eventually, STEMCELL believed in me and in my background. And here I am.

Sarah: Yeah, that's wonderful. But it's interesting, we have had a lot of conversations on the podcast about that. Oftentimes, the way we position it is field service has a branding problem. First of all, it's not a specific industry. It's a collection of a bunch of different industries. And that can be challenging. But also, it isn't a career that not only is it not shown by example in settings, like you mentioned, but oftentimes, it's hard for people to even picture what it is or what it could be. And so without having someone in your life personally, that is doing it and saying, hey, you might actually like this. It's just something that I don't think lands on a lot of people's radars. And so I think one of the challenges companies have is figuring out how do we create more awareness of this whole sort of career path for people earlier on in their education in their lives, so they can see some of that potential. So another thing we talk a lot about on this podcast is that traditionally or historically, companies have hired field engineers based on previous experience. And we have talked about the fact that those experienced engineers are becoming harder and harder and harder to find because they're aging out, they're retiring, there's just fewer and fewer of them. And so that companies need to become more adept at hiring talent that has potential and then training up and providing that experience. And I know you said to me that when you were applying to roles, you did really feel that not having previous experience was a barrier for you. So can you just share a little bit what your experience was like in that regard?

Teresa: Yes, of course. I think it is very curious because ever since I actually joined the industry, I have heard all sorts of companies saying exactly how hard it is to get young talent in their teams. But I must say that having very recently searched for a job, I felt exactly the opposite. I felt that I was always behind because I didn't have any previous experience in this industry. And even when you come across some entry-level jobs, they often ask for years of experience. Yeah, it can be a bit discouraging to find that most job ads require some sort of years of experience. And especially this type of role, because I feel that this type of job, you need lots and lots of training, regardless of your previous experience, because of how specific it is. And I truly believe that recently graduated students can bring a lot to the table. We are used to learn so many different things in such short time-frame.

Sarah: Learning was your full-time job for the last however many years.

Teresa: And the amount of detail we can retain is also really high, which I think is essential in this type of jobs. For me personally, and coming back a bit to your original question about my experience, I was doing research before and I knew I wanted to transition to this industry. And fortunately, I have found a job that allows me to keep in touch with this research environment. As I've said, my company focuses mainly in helping researchers. And so for me, being able to bridge this gap between industry and research makes me feel really accomplished and that I'm doing something meaningful. And yet again, young people can bring so much more to the table than it might seem at first sight.

Sarah: Yeah. And you made a good point when we were chatting. You said not only what you just said, which is people that are coming out of school are really in that learning mindset, but also that they're moldable, right? When you have someone that has 10, 15, 20 years of experience, they're also coming into the role with maybe some bad habits or some really firm opinions that if that doesn't fit the new role have to be overcome. So there's clearly pros and cons. But as we've stated on this podcast before, I think companies that refuse to see the need to recreate that process and how they're looking and what they're willing to do to train internally are really going to fall behind. All right. So I think one thing I wanted to ask you on that is, so for STEMCELL where you landed, what was different in their approach? Was it just that, like, were you applying for those roles, even though they were asking for experience and you didn't have it? Or did you just not apply? And then for STEMCELL, were they just not requiring experience?

Teresa: For me, at first, when I started to apply for jobs, I would be very specific. If I don't meet the requires, I would not apply. And then I started to understand that I cannot go this road and I need to apply and then prove myself in the interviews because my curriculum might not be what they are looking for. But if they meet me, I might change their minds. And that's what happened. So for me, I had not only the experience side of things, but I also had the language side of things because most ads asked for German, which I also don't speak very well yet. And so STEMCELL did ask for German and I cannot remember, but they might have asked for some years of experience, nothing crazy. And I applied anyway, because I figured, what do I have to lose? And I encourage young people to do the same. And whenever I'm talking with friends that are searching for new jobs, I always say, apply even if you don't fit every requirement. Because it might change their mind when they need you and talk to you.

Sarah: Yeah. No, it's a really important point. And I think there's obviously research that shows when we're talking specifically about trying to bring more women into field service roles, women are less likely to apply for jobs where they don't match all of the criteria. So one, I'm really glad that you did that anyway. But two, companies need to think about the fact of who they are leaving out when they're creating their job postings. Okay, what I wanna talk about next is, I know you're still pretty early in, but what do you find you enjoy about the role?

Teresa: I would say that my favorite thing so far is having the opportunity to be exposed to different labs. This early on in my career, I believe that having the opportunity to create so many contacts and be exposed to so many different environments is a big advantage for me and a great learning opportunity. Of course, the traveling that this implies is also a big highlight for me as I do love traveling and having the opportunity to visit countries, not only Germany, but also other countries in Europe is also a big plus for me. In this job, I also like to talk to people and establish communication with our customers. I like to see this job not only as servicing machines, but also listening and understanding our customers, which in my case are researchers. And I think this is where my previous experience in research really gives me leverage because I can relate to them and I can understand their urgency. And I guess the other thing I would like to mention is the flexible work hours. I like that not every day is the same. Like on the same week, I can have some days working from home, others traveling, and also some days in the labs. So not having that regular nine to five job at this point is also one of the reasons this role is so appealing to me.

Sarah: Yeah, those are all great things. And you also mentioned earlier, and I think we hear this a lot, particularly when you think about, generational differences in the workplace. There was a point in time where, and some leadership and companies are still in the mentality of pay being the only thing that matters, right? That was the most important thing. It was really the only thing. Obviously it remains very important, but you also mentioned earlier that for you, because you care so much about the research world, having this role that kind of builds that bridge gives you that sense of purpose. And I think that's something that we hear a lot with younger talent. That they want to feel like what they're doing matters. They want to feel like they have a purpose. So again, it doesn't have to be your particular industry. It can be a number of industries. I mean, service in so many ways is what keeps the world running. But I think for organizations who are trying to reimagine how they're positioning roles and how they're hiring for roles, keeping in mind that money isn't the only thing people are looking for. They're looking for flexibility. They're looking for that sense of purpose. They're looking for some of these different things. It's really important to balance out that employee value proposition to bring in different people.

Teresa: The younger generation is more and more concerned with work-life balance than the previous generation was definitely.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And so flexibility plays a big role. And so does, and we're going to talk about this a bit as well, leadership style. There's a lot of different elements to consider. But before we get to that, what challenges have you faced?

Teresa: Would say that so far I've not really faced any big challenges. As I've mentioned, I've just started not even five months ago. So far, everything has run pretty smoothly. However, all of my visits so far have been joint visits as I'm still in training. And I guess that another thing that might make me feel more comfortable and secure is that I work mainly with research labs. Where in contrast with field service, there are a lot of women working. I feel that compared to other industries, this one might be a bit easier to fit in as a woman, even though all of my field service colleagues are men. I would say that the only comment that has stuck in my head was nothing big, but was when I visited a lab with my manager the other day and I was introduced by him to the lab manager as the new person responsible for their lab. His first comment to my manager was asking, if he would keep tagging along regardless. Of course, this makes you think if the customer is going to trust you or because of my age or whatever, they might be a bit skeptical of my skills. But then again, it can be that they are just happy with my manager's work. And when you're happy with someone's work, change is not always seen as a good thing, you know? Yeah, I don't want to make any assumptions. But it was the only thing that I could think of.

Sarah: Yeah. No, and I'm really glad that your experience has been positive. But we did dig into this a little bit when we were chatting because I think your feeling was more so that that comment, if anything, had to do with age versus you being a woman. And it doesn't necessarily matter. But I do think your observations are spot on. And I think the reason that I wanted to ask this question isn't to make any assumptions or anything like that, but more so just remind folks that when you're trying really hard to bring in new talent, we can't get them in the same place and then stop thinking about it and assume everything's going to be great. We do have to think about what is that experience like for them. And that brings us to a bunch of different points. When that talent is different in any way from the traditional talent, we do need to think about, okay, are they being welcomed by internal teams? Are they being treated well by customers? We need to think about the leadership. So your manager in that moment, when that was said by a customer, that person's response, matters a lot. You know, if they make a joke about you, you could feel a certain way versus if they show confidence in your ability is you're going to feel more empowered. These all seem like these very little things, but for a new employee that is already new, so there's always that getting adjusted and maybe being a bit nervous. It's a new role. It's a new experience. They're different somehow than the existing or traditional workforce. These little things can matter a lot, particularly if they're occurring on a frequent basis. I think it's really important for managers to stay tuned into what is that experience? Is there, and the way I'm asking you what challenges, managers should be asking all new employees on a regular basis. How are you feeling? What are the challenges? Is there anything you need help with? Because these aren't things either where every employee is going to come running back and say, so-and-so just said this, or this made me uncomfortable. Oftentimes they'll keep it quiet because they're trying to fit in. Right. But then it can cause challenges. So I'm really glad that your experience has been positive so far. And I just bring this up because I think it's an important point for people to think about. That being said, is there anything, knowing that you've had a very positive experience, is there anything you think is helpful to share that you feel your company has done well to make sure that you feel welcome, you feel enabled, you feel prepared to, do those visits and learn and eventually get out on your own?

Teresa: Yeah, I can start by saying that from the first moment, still during interviews, my manager expressed a good concern regarding me being a woman. Like he included a woman during the interviews, even though she was not in field service, he wanted me to feel comfortable. So there's always been that concern and I do really appreciate it. I've been really feeling protected from the get-go and I feel that my company's culture is overall very welcoming. One thing that I really appreciate is that my team, everyone is super available to include me and have me joining customers visits. They always take extra time to explain and train me properly. They never make me feel like a burden or like I'm delaying their work or making them stay longer or anything. I think that the other thing that was also reassuring is that I was never given a time limit to when I need to be ready to start going alone. So my company has always reiterated that I will only continue. I go alone when I feel comfortable and ready. And that's, of course, super reassuring because I can take my time and be very confident before I start going alone.

Sarah: Yeah. Two things on that. And one thing I want to say, I don't think you'll take offense to this, but I think when you say concern, that word could be a little bit misleading because it almost gives a negative. It's more awareness, I think, is what you mean.

Teresa: Exactly.

Sarah: Because it wasn't concern where he was worried. It was concern where he was conscious of wanting you to be comfortable. I think there's just a way that can be done very well. And there's a way it could be patronizing as a woman. Do you know what I mean? And so I just want to point that out because those, again, are the little things that matter a lot. The other thing I wanted to say is knowing that in their job posting, there was small experience requirement that you didn't meet, but you were obviously brought on anyway. So in the training process, have you felt that as a challenge at all? Or do you genuinely feel like you are just as equipped as someone who would have come in with any experience?

Teresa: Yeah, I definitely think that with all the training, I've had two intensive training weeks in Canada in the headquarters. And with that, I feel really equipped. And all of the subsequent joint visits also made me sure that I'm ready. I feel that, as I've said before, the training is so specific that even if I've had previous experience, it would not help me necessarily with this equipment. I don't think that would make such a difference. I don't know, maybe in a few years when if I choose another job, I will have a different take on this. But for now, no, I don't feel that having previous experience would make that be of a difference.

Sarah: Yeah, I would imagine that is accurate. And I think it's just another important reminder for people of how many great candidates they're leaving out if they're continuing to hold that requirement, even when it is specific. Now, going back to the conversation at the Cologne event and the previous podcast with Daniel, there are instances where, if you remember in his conversation, they were saying that there was a specific requirement that they have for their role. That is one of the reasons, a certification, one of the reasons that they had previously required that experience. And so when they realized, though, that that was a barrier to bringing in people that didn't already have experience, they split the role to where there was more of a truer entry-level role where that certification wasn't necessary and they bring people into that role, then they can certify them while they're working to be able to do the second piece of that as well. So my point being, if there are true requirements like that, there's always a way to provide them or to work for them. It's just a matter of companies being very stuck to the way they've always done it versus being willing to reflect or to try something different. The other thing I wanted to ask you about, Teresa, is your views on empowerment. So we talked about enablement, you coming in out of a school setting, you feeling like you are being trained well, you're being supported well by your teams, you're not made to feel a burden. You can take the time you need to feel comfortable going on your own. But I think the other important piece, particularly today, is leaders who are focused on this sense of ownership, the employees feeling confident to do the job well, but do it in their own way and bring their own personality to things, bring their opinions and ideas to work, et cetera. So what are your thoughts on that?

Teresa: I think that at this point, at least for me, this question's answer is highly dependent on who my manager is and how much freedom do they allow. And I've currently so far been really lucky with my current manager because there is no micromanagement whatsoever. And of course, this gives me all the freedom I need to organize my day, organize my trips in the way that it suits me best and makes me feel more comfortable with it. And I think that the sense of ownership that you mentioned comes mainly from, of course, being given the tools that you need, but also having the freedom to explore the way you're most comfortable doing things and tackling issues in your own way, even if it's not the way other people are doing it. I guess instead of just being told how I need to approach services, I have also been given space. And actually, I've been highly encouraged to, ever since my first training in Vancouver, I've been highly encouraged to find the way that it's the best way for me to carry the services. I feel that in that sense, they really invest on making the employees feel that they can do the things on their own way and everyone can have a different way to do things as long as they're doing it. I guess they are done well and on time.

Sarah: Yeah, there's standards, but then you're given a creative freedom to build your own relationships and bring your own personality to it. And I think this correlates back to some of the things that you have said that attracted you to the space or that you enjoy about the role. You find a sense of purpose in what you're doing. I think it's really hard when you have employees who have that sense of purpose and they have drive and they have passion about what they're doing, but then you have a manager that's telling them basically to be a robot and to do things in this uniform fashion and no, I don't want your ideas. This is how it's done. Then you're not creating an environment where one, those people are going to want to stay, but two, they can have the impact they're able to have on the customer experience. Yeah, I would point people back to there was an episode of the podcast that was with Venkata from Bruker Nano, and we talked a lot about his leadership style. And I just feel like this idea of... I love empowerment and that building that sense of ownership is so important in actually getting the most of today's talent once they've come on board. So I'm really glad that you're having, again, a positive experience, though. That's good. Okay, Teresa, so when you think ahead, I know, again, it's still early on. So some of these questions are probably a little hard because you're like, I'm still getting up to speed. But I mean, obviously, you have your own goals and dreams and objectives and whatnot. So when you think about the potential growth that could exist for you for a career in field service, how do you envision that?

Teresa: As you've said, to be honest, like, of course, I've given some thought to that. But as this is my first job and it's super early on, I've mostly been taking the opportunity to learn as much as I can right now. And once I'm more settled, I'm sure I'll give way more thought than I have to this question. But to quickly answer, I think that over time, I just hope that I'm given more and more responsibility, that I am trusted by my team and that perhaps I'll be able to train people when it comes to it. And of course, the possibility of managing a team would also be interesting. But then again, I'm not saying that I'm staying in this field forever. But yeah, it's a possibility and it's interesting possibility.

Sarah: Let me word it this way. When you came into STEMCELL when you interviewed, when you came on board throughout your sort of orientation and training, like, have they presented to you what growth could look like? Or is it still just focused on this role specifically?

Teresa: I think it's pretty focused on this role specifically, but I do have some close examples that started as field service engineers and now have higher positions in the company. They are always open to that. But I've also been given this advice, which is. If you don't want to be a field service engineer for the rest of your life, don't do it for more than five or six years. Otherwise, you might want to be stuck at this.

Sarah: Yeah.

Teresa: And you don't not, I might want to explore different roles. I don't know. But I think there is a possibility to grow within the company. At least that's what I feel right now. But yeah, it's not on my plans in the near future, at least.

Sarah: You're getting situated.

Teresa: Yeah.

Sarah: That makes sense. I think this is just another thing that we hear a lot in conversations about talent is that particularly younger talent coming in, they want to progress. So it doesn't mean, I mean, you're five months in, obviously. I'm not saying you're there yet. But it's important for companies to have the understanding that, again, historically technicians or engineers would come into the company and they might do that role for 30 years. We need to understand that the majority of talent today is not going to want to do that. They're going to want to do it for a few years and have an opportunity for growth and evolve. And so number one, I think just understanding that reality is important in how we or how they orient their organizations to account for that. And then number two, there's been different conversations I've had of how companies are working to show new hires that potential when they come in so that they know it's there, they can work at their own pace, they can be as motivated to progress or not, but that they know that that potential exists within that organization versus them being in that role for a couple years, getting bored, and then jumping to a different organization. So it's just another point to consider, but it's also good to hear that you're not like, I think there's also this misperception that young talent has this unrealistic desire to just come in to a field service engineer role and be CEO in six months. You know what I mean? And it's also maybe dispelling that myth that you're saying, hey, right now I'm just focused on doing this job well, and then I'll think about what's next.

Teresa: Of course, of course. But don't get me wrong. I'm not thinking about growing right now, but of course, there's something that's an ambition, of course. But I know these things take time, and I'm not in a rush. And as I've said, I'm taking the opportunity to learn as much as I can right now, and that's my main goal now. But of course, that's on my mind, and I think it's good for people to be ambitious.

Sarah: Yeah. It's also another important point back to the importance of good leadership, because a lot of those conversations... Sure, someone can show you a chart, when you're getting hired, of what the different growth potential is, but that's not relevant at that moment, right? You're focused on coming in to do the job you were hired for. It's having those close, having that relationship with your leader, having those interactions, having them not just saying, are you doing a good job? Great. But how are you feeling? What are your goals, et cetera, over time? So yeah.

Teresa: Of course.

Sarah: Okay, so here's maybe a tough question for you. We talked about some of the things that you enjoy about the role and you're young. So have you thought about how the things you enjoy a lot now could change in other phases of your life and how you might navigate that?

Teresa: I think that this is where you want this question to go. I think that when I picture my phases of life, what's next or not next necessarily, but in the future is having a family eventually. Of course, this is the kind of job that makes you think how it will be when you have a family because we have to travel a lot. And so whenever I meet someone in this field with a family and especially with little kids or babies, it really inspires me and makes me think that it is actually possible to have and do both. However, of course, I have no idea how my life is going to look like in a few years. And I don't know if I will enjoy traveling as much as I do now, and especially spending so much nights away from home. Finding out that some companies, specifically Daniel that you've already mentioned, are already investing in finding solutions for people that do want to be in field service, but do not wish to travel as much as it usually implies. Is really heartwarming. Like it gives me hope that companies are more invested and creative in finding solutions for different types of people and in finding ways for more flexibility in these fields. And still in this topic, I would just like to quickly point out that these questions about balancing this type of job with parenthood are often framed as exclusively a woman's problem, such as how do you see yourself managing this lifestyle when you become a mom? And of course you did not frame it that way, nor did you assume that I do want to have children, which is also not an assumption that should be made for every woman. But this balance is not just a woman's problem. This might be a concern for anyone who wants to start a family and knows how much time we spend away from home in this type of job. So companies should tackle this problem and get creative, having everyone in mind and not just women.

Sarah: Absolutely, yeah. You said when we were talking about this, yeah, it's a consideration, but it's just as much a consideration for my partner as it is for me. And I love that. Now, I will say I get inspired hearing you say that because it shows the change and the growth in thinking. I'm 42, I have two sons and I have traveled throughout my career. And I am still often asked in 2024, who's taking care of your children? And I'm like, their dad. You know? And it's unfortunate, but it is still very much a reality. And I think that's why I wanted to bring it up. So there's a few important things we talked about. Number one, and I said this at the event, I think, I have been asked questions before as a woman and as a mother of, you know, well, we need more women in service because they're nurturing or we need to think about this or this. And we need to be very careful of assuming that all women want to have children. That's just not a reality that we should assume for a variety of reasons. That's number one. Number two, to your point, we need to be creative and think about how we bring in more flexibility and more options to field service roles for everyone. Because the only way that this continues to evolve and get better is if it's possible for anyone to do it. The more we think about it through the lens of how do we make it easier for women? All we're doing is reinforcing the mentality that it's a woman's job alone to have that consideration. I read this quote recently. I think I shared it on LinkedIn. It made me think so much, but it said, giving women more opportunity in the workplace without expecting more from men at home is not empowerment, it's exploitation. And I absolutely love that. And that's coming from someone who, at least for my age, is in a pretty egalitarian relationship. But the beliefs, the things that are really deeply embedded are really deeply embedded. And we have to continue to challenge those. So I'm really glad that you bring up that point. And also really glad that you said, my partner is thinking about this just as much as I am. The other thing I wanted to reinforce that you said is for a woman or a couple that does choose to have children, it also doesn't automatically, mean they don't want a role where they travel. Yes, some people might decide they don't want that anymore for any reason. Some people just get sick of it, even if they don't have kids. Or they might decide one doesn't, whatever. But to your point, you said that when you see people doing it, it's inspiring to you. And so I also want to kind of reinforce for listeners, there is no rule that says once someone has a family, they don't want to travel anymore. So I think the lesson here is, one, not to make assumptions. And two, to think creatively about how we can build different options into the work structure so that it can fit. A variety of different needs, and we can have the greatest success possible. Bringing in good talent and retaining that good talent through different phases.

Teresa: Yeah, definitely. Thank you for complimenting what I said in such a clear way. Yeah.

Sarah: Well, I'm very passionate about it as well. It's a really layered topic. And I will admit, I've admitted this many times, as a mom, I do have guilt for being gone. And I'm not saying I should. I'm just saying I do. And so when I'm away from my family and there's stuff going on here and someone makes a comment like that, it's not easy to just brush off always. And so I think that I want to see that change. It doesn't help anyone to continue to reinforce that thinking. And I think there's, with your generation, a huge wave of change coming because of the work that my generation and others have done, right? It's we're building on it, but it just takes time, so.

Teresa: Of course.

Sarah: Okay. Any other advice you would offer companies who are really working hard to bring in new talent? Things you can think that they should do, things they shouldn't do. From your perspective, having recently gone through this, is there anything we haven't touched on that comes to mind that you think it would be good for folks to be thinking about?

Teresa: I don't, of course, have a recipe or anything about what should or shouldn't be done, especially because I'm so new to all of this. I might have some more insights. As I gain more understanding of this industry. But I guess I can say as a young person's perspective that the companies that are investing in creating flexibility and creative environments and that are promoting professional but personal growth as well and that provide a safe space for learning are definitely on the right track. Believing in young people and their skills is crucial as is giving them a chance, even if there are other candidates with more experience. We've all been there. Everyone needs their first opportunity to show their work. And ultimately, the companies that claim that they are working hard to attract this new talent hold significant power in including the younger generation. I don't know. It's also very good that companies are showing more and more concern in having a more diverse team. And for example, I think that for including women, it might be easier to look in the younger generation as we've discussed. There are way more female engineers, for example, nowadays than there were before. So if you really want to make a change, you need to go on all fronts. And also one thing that I think that field service industry can take advantage of is that they're offering a different type of routine compared to more traditional jobs. And I believe that nowadays young people are craving for a more fast-paced environment. They are keen to learning from different environments at the same time and from different people. And so having a more diverse experience overall is appealing to young people. And I think it's something that field service can bring. I think that highlighting this aspect of the job might be a good way to attract young people.

Sarah: Absolutely. So I feel bad going back to something because that was such a good conclusion. But I did just think of one thing that you brought up that I want to touch on because I think it would be helpful for listeners, which is you mentioned in that variety. So you just kind of mentioned it. You said that you travel. Some days you're in the lab. Some days you're working from home. And so I wanted to ask you, is that because you're in training or will that be the same when you are on your own? Will you still have days you're working from home and you'll have days that you're traveling, days that you're in the lab? And is that something that will be the same throughout?

Teresa: Yes. The routine will be almost the same, meaning there are really no routine. But I will have days at home, which might involve getting some paperwork done or getting involved in some other projects that a company might have going on. And then, of course, travel days sometimes take the whole day. But yeah, days from home are also good because, of course, you're not looking at your computer waiting for an email to drop at all. So it also gives me the opportunity to explore other hobbies and gives me some free time that I think that in a regular nine-to-five job, again, you wouldn't have the chance to explore this other side.

Sarah: Yeah. No. And I wanted to go back to that because a lot of times we think about these roles as even if it isn't travel, like get on an airplane or get on a train. It's just like in the car. It's Monday through Friday or whatever the schedule is. It's boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Right. And don't get me wrong. There's different service environments based on different industries. I understand that. But I do think maybe in your industry, that sort of variety is more naturally occurring. But even for those, it isn't where there's this daily demand for service job after service job. Thinking about is there a way to rotate or split work where you can build in some of that variety, where maybe two days a week technicians or engineers are doing remote service from home. And three days a week, they're traveling or something like that. Again, going back to your point of just being conscious that flexibility, that creativity, that variety is very important. I just want to challenge people to think about, I believe there's always a way to provide more of that. It's just a matter of whether you're willing to do things differently or you're trying to fit today's talent into a very outdated mold. So I just wanted to go back to that because we're seeing more of that. I think that as companies adopt more remote service capabilities, they can have engineers working from home a couple days a week doing remote service and then be on site. And I think, again, we talked about travel can be incredibly exciting for a while. But I think for some people, it will get old regardless of what the next phase of life looks like. So just having options for different ways to different roles to offer different ways to build schedules, different alternatives is, I think, really important for the future.

Teresa: Yeah, me too. And that's why I mentioned Daniel's work, because that's the most familiar work I've been with so far. And it's really what I hope in a company. And it's creating that space for you to be comfortable with whichever phase you're in and having that flexibility. So you're not traveling all the time or you can spend some time troubleshooting at home. You might also like that. So, yeah, given that choices, it makes you happier. And overall, I think that having your employees happy makes your customers happier. So it's all a big cycle.

Sarah: I just thought of one other question. We're going to keep going. This is going to be like a three hour episode. I'm just kidding. Last one, I promise. So there's major, major buzz everywhere right now about AI. So I want to ask from the perspective of a young field service engineer, how do you feel about AI?

Teresa: I feel that AI can be a really good tool if you know how to use it. And if you are aware of its limitations, I think that it's still evolving. I have to be honest, I'm not an expert in the subject, but we did discuss some really interesting things in the event we met. And there were discussions of having these interactive videos where you can ask questions because we're training. Everyone knows that if you don't have customers that have that specific machine and you don't go there very often, you might forget. So having, I think that AI can be a really good tool for training, for example. But of course, you need to acknowledge there are limitations, at least for now. It's not 100% reliable, of course. And everyone needs to be aware of that.

Sarah: It's not something that makes you fear for your job.

Teresa: I think it will complement my job. I don't know if it will grow fast enough. I'm sure it will grow very, very fast, but I don't know if it will grow fast enough or, again, I don't know if it will be 100% reliable ever. So I think that having the human input is always good and it can be a great tool to complement that work. But yeah, I would like to believe that we are still needed in the long run.

Sarah: Yeah. I agree a thousand percent. I don't see a time, regardless of how sophisticated it becomes, that we don't need to think about it as how it complements human effort versus overtakes it. But I was just really interested to ask your perspective because it's something that I think sometimes, and maybe it's more threatening for people that have been in the workforce longer that see it as such a massive change. But I think it's important for us to think about how we put people at ease of looking at it as a tool to help them in their roles, not looking at it as a threat. Okay. Thanks for letting me ask you a bunch of questions that I was curious about. I absolutely loved it. I appreciate your perspective. I'm very excited to see where your career takes you because you're going to do amazing things and we'll definitely love to have you back at some point.

Teresa: Yeah, thank you so much again for the invite. I really enjoyed our conversation. It's always great to hear your inputs. I think we have very similar intakes in some of the main topics. So it's good to have this podcast to have continuity in these topics.

Sarah: Yes, thank you for being a part of it. I appreciate it.

Teresa: Thank you, Sarah.

Sarah: You all can find more by visiting the home of UNSCRIPTED at futureoffieldserviceref.ifs.com. I will try and make sure we link in the show notes the episode that we did with Daniel at Thermo Fisher and Venkata at Bruker Nano that we mentioned in this episode. The Unscripted podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. And as always, thank you for listening.

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