podcast Archives - Page 4 of 35 - Future of Field Service

Episode 309

In this episode of UNSCRIPTED, host Sarah Nicastro sits down with Michael Potts, Executive Vice President at ACCO Engineered Systems, to explore strategic 'big bets' in talent acquisition and retention. From prioritizing cultural fit over quick hires, to embracing disruptive change and investing in emotional intelligence training, Michael shares how ACCO's $2B business is leading rather than following industry evolution. Whether you're struggling with recruitment challenges or seeking to build a more resilient service culture, this conversation offers actionable insights on creating an environment where top talent wants to stay. Tune in to discover why challenging the status quo might be your best strategy for long-term success.

What You'll Learn:

- How to prioritize cultural fit over immediate staffing needs and why running lean is sometimes better than hiring wrong

- The power of committee-style interviews and creating safe spaces for honest feedback in talent assessment

- Why disrupting rather than following is crucial for industry leadership, even when it means some attrition

- How to balance traditional "promote from within" approaches with bringing in outside perspective

- The importance of emotional intelligence (EQ) training in developing stronger leaders and teams

- Why career progression needs rethinking to match modern workforce expectations and desires

- How to maintain the human touch while embracing technological advancement and automation

- The critical balance between driving efficiency and investing in people-centric approaches to service excellence

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Watch the episode here:

Transcript:

[00:00:11] Sarah: Welcome to the UNSCRIPTED podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today, we're going to get an inside look at ACCO's strategic big bets to win the talent war. I am joined today by Michael Potts, who is the Executive Vice President at ACCO Engineered Systems. Michael, welcome to the podcast!

[00:00:35] Michael: Thank you, Sarah. Appreciate you having me on.

[00:00:39] Sarah: Yeah. I'm thrilled to have you. So, before we get into the conversation of today, just tell everyone a little bit more about yourself, your role, and ACCO's business.

[00:00:51] Michael: Okay. I've been in this industry, the HVAC construction industry, for about twenty-eight years. I'm the Executive Vice President of ACCO Engineered Systems. We have offices in eight states across the Western United States, and we're a $2B-plus company. And I have roughly 550 service vans on the on the road every day. I run the service division of our of our company. So, we're made up of service, controls, and construction.

[00:01:38] Sarah: Okay. Great. , and how long have you been with ACCO?

[00:01:44] Michael: I've been with ACCO twelve years now.

[00:01:46] Sarah: Okay. Yeah. I knew it was quite some time, but I didn't think it was the whole 28. Okay.

[00:01:53] Michael: No. No. And, interesting thing, we have we have a lot of longevity at ACCO. I'm still considered one of the new people after twelve years. And, so that that's a testament to our to our culture, I believe.

[00:02:10] Sarah: Yeah. Absolutely. So, Michael and I had a call a couple of weeks back, talking about doing this podcast together, brainstorming ideas, you know, the way that we usually do. And we landed on this talent discussion because there were a lot of paths that kept taking us back to some of the opinions you have, some of the things about the approach that ACCO is taking around this, and, you know, that ties in with culture, leadership, you know, a lot of different aspects. So, we're going to talk through some of those during our conversation today. But to start, we're talking about some of these big bets. Right? And so, I think this is great. It's a great conversation to have because what I get frustrated by seeing is organizations and leaders who are not taking big enough bets when it comes to what's going on in the talent landscape. They're either just way too complacent within the organization or they're hoping that things are going to go back to the good old days, you know, whatever it is. And so, I really enjoyed talking about some of these more strategic opinions and these big bets that that you're betting on to make progress in this area. So, one of the first that you shared with me is you said you would rather run short of optimal efficiency than hire people you know are not a good fit for the business. Can you explain can you explain this a bit?

[00:04:03] Michael: Well, I believe that an employee/company relationship is exactly that. It's a relationship. If we're accepting people into our organization that don't fit into the role and aren't going to excel in the position that we were trying to place them, they're going to fail. And as a leader in our organization, if people around me are failing, I take that personally, and that's a reflection of myself. So, I would rather run lean in in our groups, whether it's our field teams, our sales teams, or our operations teams, and wait to find the right people that are going to fit those roles than to hire people just because we need bodies. Whether it's a dispatcher or a regional vice president, it doesn't matter. I you have the wrong person in in the role, you know, you're not going to get the efficiencies that you're that you're striving for. So, being patient, being selective. I will say prior to the pandemic, we were just trying to hire bodies and get people in the door. And I feel like our business suffered a little bit because of that. And then the pandemic hit. We had to lay a lot of people off, and it got me thinking about, you know, we have to change our approach when it comes to recruiting and hiring people. Now that doesn't mean that you let your business go backwards because you're being selective. That just means be patient. There are a lot of really good people out there that will fit your needs. You just have to put in the work. You have to put in the work to find the right people.

[00:06:18] Sarah: That's what I was just going to say. You know, the call for patience is spot on, but you're not just being patient and then waiting for the right people to come to you. You're being patient and you're being proactive in how you're changing your approach to get more of those right people to you, which we're going to talk more about. So, it's both. It's being patient, but it's also being open to, okay, how do we need to change? What do we need to change? You know? What how has the dynamics changed, and how do we adjust? Right?

[00:06:56] Michael: Correct. Correct. And ACCO, we're an employee-owned company. So, I'm challenging everyone in our in our organization. We should all be recruiting, every single day. It doesn't matter where you're at in the organization. We should always be looking for that next quality person to bring into the group.

[00:07:21] Sarah: Yeah. And when we think about the service part of this conversation, you know, you were talking about this principle applies for you whether you're talking about service or sales or operations. But, I mean, really, not only service, but any role in any organization that would be customer facing. There's a real opportunity cost of just bringing in bodies, you know, in terms of how that can affect the customer experience if they're not actually the right fit and they're not invested in, you know, the brand and the experience you want to portray as an organization. Right? So, I think that's another side of it is, I think sometimes because the talent landscape is very challenging today, there can almost be this air of desperation to your point of just bringing in bodies, bringing in bodies. Right? And I can understand where that comes from, but just how you have that realization, it's kind of a Band-Aid on a bigger problem. And it's a Band-Aid on doing the work the organization needs to do to bring in more of those right people.

[00:08:47] Michael: I think it could actually be a detriment to the organization because you're diluting the product that you're putting out if you don't have the right people in the right chairs.

[00:08:58] Sarah: Mhmm. And potentially poisoning the culture. Right? If you have people that, you know, don't want to be there or don't care about the work they're doing, the people that you have that do care and do work hard. You know? It's not a good addition to the overall morale and team feel to have those types of people filling in those spots.

[00:09:35] Michael: Absolutely. And my take on hiring is, I don't want somebody to come to work for ACCO that is just looking for a job. I want somebody to come to work for ACCO that's looking for a career, and then we can help build their career. That's the focus that we're taking now, and that's kind of a departure from where we were, you know, five years ago.

[00:10:04] Sarah: Yeah. So, you know, when I asked you about some of the traits that you're looking for when you're looking for the right fit, you talked about work ethic, integrity, willingness to learn, and they all make sense. My question is, what have you found works in assessing those things when you are finding the right people? Because all of those traits make sense that you would want them, but I think they can also be hard to accurately assess. So, what have you learned in, you know, the evaluation process of how you try and get a good feel for if someone does have these traits and will ultimately be an asset to the business?

[00:10:56] Michael: Well, I believe, you know, traditionally, when we're interviewing people, we go through a list of questions. And, you know, HR provides the list of questions, and you have to you have to check all the boxes. My approach to it, and I believe most of my leadership team's approach to it is I would rather sit down with a candidate and have a conversation with them and not necessarily go through a list of questions. One of the things that we've done is, we're trying to do more, how would you phrase it, I guess, committee type interviews. So three or four ACCO leaders can get a better feel for an individual. And when we come out of those interviews, you know, everyone has a different take on what they heard. So that's been pretty successful. And having a safe place for sharing the opinions of what we've learned in the interview is paramount to success. If other leaders aren't comfortable going against mine or another leader's opinion, then it's not a good solution to finding the right people. S, that comes back to culture. My take is if a person has work ethic, integrity, willing to learn, you know, wanting growth in their career, we can teach all the technical side of the business. Those are some of the things that are hard to teach. And, if I can find somebody with those traits, it's really easy to get them to progress in their career and be a be a successful employee at ACCO.

[00:13:12] Sarah: Yeah. And, you know, even that piece in and of itself, right, it's an evolution. I mean, going back probably ten years, you didn't have to do that. You probably could find people that had these traits and had some of the technical skill you already needed them to have, and, you know, you just put them in place. And I think that's where what I mentioned earlier is, you know, some companies are having a really hard time adapting to what this looks like today because they haven't figured out, okay. Well, we just have to do more work. You know? We have to try harder to find the right fit, and then we also have to do the work to train them up on, you know, the technical aspects. But there's just no way around it. Right? It's a good point that, you know, those things are more a priority and the technical piece is more easily taught. And you can put a training program in place. You can put an apprenticeship or a mentorship in place to make sure that you feel those employees are getting to where they need to technically. It's a lot harder to instill some of these traits in into people. Right? So, it makes sense why you would be seeking those over the experience or the technical aptitude.

[00:14:35] Michael: Absolutely. You know, our customers' requirements are changing almost daily. So, it's not just the company needs different types of employees. The customers are demanding more of service companies, so the service companies have to demand something different of the employees. And technology, while it is wonderful and has helped us advance, it's also put more pressures on our employees that maybe are in the forefront of our management skill sets.

[00:15:20] Michael: So, we have to understand that, you know, with technology, our employees are behaving different because our customers are behaving different. So, the end result is the company has to behave differently. And that's kind of what we're going through right now is an evolution of how we're interacting with our employees based on what our customers' needs are.

[00:15:45] Sarah: Mhmm. What would you say are is the biggest or a couple of the biggest shifts in what the customers are expecting?

[00:15:54] Michael: In the in the HVAC service industry, ride share apps are you know, that's everyone expects it now. Home delivery companies are setting expectations for individuals which are translating into what the customer needs are. So, that's really driving our customer experience or customer's expectation of their experience. And, and then, you know, that relates back to what the employee's experience is. That's the, kind of the genesis of the customer's changes.

[00:16:41] Sarah: Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. So, we talked about how you are what you're sort of prioritizing in looking for new talent and then how you're assessing that. What are you doing to ensure that ACCO is giving these new employees an experience and a company culture that they will, you know, want to be a part of, want to apply those traits to?

[00:17:13] Michael: Well, I think it starts with the top down. It's a leadership thing. And, personally, I have to live the culture that I'm expecting from the people around me.

[00:17:30] Sarah: Mhmm.

[00:17:30] Michael: So, I think setting the example from the top down, that's how you drive the cultural changes. I spoke about a safe space for the managers to share their opinions, and I think that works throughout the whole company.

[00:17:48] Sarah: Mhmm.

[00:17:49] Michael: You know, you have to have a place where people are allowed to share their opinions with leadership, or you're not going to be able to drive that culture. So, the ability to drive conversation through the whole company, that that's our culture.

[00:18:14] Michael: Our CEO to our dispatchers, there's this ability to have conversations across the organization, so I think that really helps set the tone for a new employee coming into the organization. Peer-to-peer contact. People that are in the organization and have some longevity, know what the expectations are. If we can pair them up with a new employee, then they show them the ACCO way, if you will. So I think there's quite a few things that would set the culture and set the experience for a new employee. We're working hard on all of those things.

[00:19:07] Sarah: Yeah, that's really good. And so, the second big bet I want to talk about is, we talked about betting on change. And, you know, you saying that you have to make these strategic bets on changing the approach, changing the expectation, changing, you know, the business, whatever it is that the customers are demanding that today's landscape demands. You have to figure out how to adapt to that, but you also said that, when you're betting on change, you know that it will bring some attrition. So, in a talent landscape that is already challenging, why is it important for you to take that risk of changing things in a way that could lead to attrition?

[00:20:08] Michael: If we don't continue to change with our customers' needs…Now, we don't want to have change for change's sake.

[00:20:16] Sarah: Sure.

[00:20:16] Michael: It's really driven by customer needs, and technology plays a role into it as well. But if we don't continue to get better and improve our processes and procedures and improve the customer's experience, then we're going to be left behind because our competition's doing the same thing every single day. As an employee, a lot of times people get set in their ways, and, you know, we've always done it that way. Why can't we continue to do it that way? Well, that's not going to get us to where we need to be. So, we have to continue to change, and sometimes that does lead to heartburn for long term employees. And, you know, my expectation was x, and now we're moving in y direction. And we as leaders have to be disciplined enough to go, here's the end goal. This is what I'm trying to get to. And, you know, maybe we've lost a couple people along the way, but we have to be disciplined enough to continue to drive to that goal.

[00:21:31] Sarah: Mhmm. Yeah. Now one example you shared with me is that someone made a statement to you when ACCO was deploying IFS for service management that it would lose 50% of its technicians, and you lost two. So, I'm curious, you know, how you effectively closed the gap of risk in that example, from what that initial statement was to what the reality ended up being.

[00:22:05] Michael: Transparency and getting employee buy in. We really brought the field leadership in when we were developing the mobile piece of the IFS platform.

[00:22:20] Sarah: Mhmm.

[00:22:21] Michael: We brought them in and basically asked what their needs are and why and help us develop this tool for all of our technicians. Granted, we were much smaller then, but that it did come back to me that we're going to lose half of our technicians if we have that kind of oversight. And doing their time in a live environment, they're not going to buy into that. So, we did bring the field leadership in, said, what are the must haves for the field teams? How can you guys be involved in the development of the of the mobile? And I think that really helped stop some of the noise that was out there. You know, there's a lot of rumors when you're deploying a new software or you're providing any change in an organization. And if you can dispel those rumors by getting people involved, I think that really was the catalyst for our retention of our field teams.

[00:23:35] Sarah: Yeah. Absolutely. And, I mean, you know, the two people that that you did lose, you know, you can't not evolve as an organization just to appease people who don't want to change the way that they're working or aren't willing, you know, to change how they're working. Because, to your point, it's not change for change's sake. It's change to keep pace with what the customers need. It's change to keep pace with what the technological environment is. It's changed to keep pace with, you know, the talent landscape and needing to do things differently. Right? But I do think that's quite impressive that somebody said half, and it ended up being two. That's a pretty good success rate to go back with. So, the third big bet that I want to talk about is your commitment to drive, not follow. So, to disrupt rather than being disrupted. There's a lot of risk, but also a relative ease to following. Right? What, knowing that, what makes driving the charge worth it in your opinion?

[00:24:56] Michael: I'm really passionate about our industry. The HVAC and plumbing service space has a lot of really, really talented people in it. It's provided a very comfortable lifestyle for my family. ACCO's one of the largest mechanical contractors in the country. I believe that we owe it to our industry to drive the industry as opposed to following someone that's, you know, sixteenth of our size to drive the industry. So, I look at it as I want to do what's right for the industry. There are a lot of small businesses that are starting up every single day that that are looking for ways to grow and build their business, and I want to be the example of that across the country. You know, my goal is if ACCO does something on the West Coast, I want our East Coast competitors and peers to go, why did ACCO do that? We should look into that.

[00:26:13] Sarah: Mhmm.

[00:26:14] Michael: That's my goal, and it and it really comes from a place of giving back to our industry. But also, you know, making the industry better. That's the goal.

[00:26:27] Sarah: Yeah. I love it. One of the areas that we talked about is this idea of career longevity. So this is one that you said you're really working through knowing that things need to change but working with HR and thinking about the best ways to evolve approach. So, I mean, I know this is something that you're in the midst of, but in this area specifically, what do you think disruption could look like?

[00:27:01] Michael: Well, I believe that he next generation of employees need different things than the current generation of employees. As a company, we have to adapt to what those needs are, and, you know, that in itself could be a disruption in our in our industry. We, as a company, are looking at how we interact with people coming into the industry. How we speak to them has to be different. How we engage them, and our expectations of them has to be different. We had an employee in an interview and share their expectation of, I'm going to work for ACCO for two years. Being an employee owner doesn't really matter to me. It doesn't pay my rent today. That's a long-term play. I'm going to be at ACCO for two years. I'm going to leverage what I learned. I'm going to go to the next company and use that, learn something there, and I'm going to go to the next company. The days of employees working for one company for forty years, I believe those are gone with this next generation of people coming into our industry. So as an organization, we have to adapt to that. If we don't adapt to that, our expectations are going to be different than our employees' expectations, and that's not going to be good for either.

[00:28:48] Sarah: Yeah. I just had a conversation last week with a gentleman, Ken, who leads technical support at Makino. And we had a really interesting conversation around this point specifically because we were also talking about some of the ways the talent landscape has changed, particularly after COVID. And, you know, he was saying that they did a lot of work to, make sure that what they're paying people in all roles is fair. But he said, you know, pretty much no business can just double everyone's pay and maintain economic viability. Right? So, he said, we have to look for other needs to meet. And for them, he was saying, because the entire organization across functions really appreciates the experience that field engineers have coming up, like the customer interactions they have, the skill sets that that requires, they were very open to looking for all these ways to create these career paths, not just the traditional, you know, engineer to this, to manager, you know, but throughout the organization. So, to give people a lot of options of we're not asking you to stay in one place for five years. We're saying, you know, you come in, you do this role, and then here's all these different paths that you can take to progress in different ways, different levels, you know, etcetera. And I thought that was smart because we know that people want to see that opportunity for growth, that opportunity for progression. But I also really liked how they came together as a business to appreciate how those field engineers can fill roles in, you know, a variety of different functions, not just in the service silo, if you will.

[00:30:48] Michael: We need to look at career progression as a big priority to younger people, and I completely understand that. But that's not the only driver for young people. It's, you know, how does the company feel about the environment?

[00:31:12] Sarah: Mhmm.

[00:31:13] Michael: How do they feel about flex time, working from home?

[00:31:17] Sarah: Mhmm.

[00:31:18] Michael: You know, vacations, those kinds of things. There are a lot of factors that go into how we interact with this next generation of employees. And I again, I think if we fall back on, well, we've always done it this way, then then we're going to be suffering as an industry, not just as a company. So yeah. We have to be mindful and open to new conversations.

[00:31:50] Sarah: Absolutely. That's such a great point. Be open to it. And, also, you know, keep in mind knowledge is power. Right? Like you said, the biggest risk is that the employees want an experience that ACCO doesn't understand and isn't taking the time to get to know. If you're asking the questions, what's important to you, what matters to you, what would keep you here, it does it's there isn't a wrong answer. Right? I mean, I think sometimes people don't ask because they don't want to know, but ignorance is not bliss. Knowledge is power. If you're asking the question, that's what allows you then to come together as a leadership team and get creative and say, hey, listen, this is what we're hearing. What do we need to do to meet this need or this need? Or, you know, what can we address? How can we address it? It's just too many organizations, I think, are avoiding that conversation instead of, you know, seeking that understanding and then really figuring out, okay. Well, here's what they want and what they need. Now let's put our thinking caps on and really, you know, break the mold. You know? We're not going to go back to what we were doing before COVID. We need to create something brand new.

[00:33:06] Michael: From a leadership perspective, if you're not asking those questions and getting the answers, how are you going to set clear expectations for the people that work in your business? And if you're not setting clear expectations for the people in your business, then you're failing as a leader.

[00:33:23] Sarah: Absolutely. Yeah, it's really interesting. So, the fourth big bet that we spoke about is bringing outside leaders in. So, we talked about the fact that this is a big deal in a company that has been in business for ninety years and has traditionally promoted from within and still does. Okay? So the goal is not to move away from doing that, but talk about why you're thinking about the right balance and what the benefit is in bringing some outside talent in.

[00:34:00] Michael: Well, I'm glad that you touched on that we're not getting away from this homegrown methodology because that's been success that we've had a lot of success from that. But the experiences that you bring, that people have from other companies that you can bring into an organization that's as established as ACCO, ninety years in business. I think you bring new ideas and new ways to evolve as an organization. I mean, I've been here for twelve years, and I feel like I'm losing some of my creativity because I'm caught in this system. That I'm not challenging the status quo like I used to. So that outside influence, I think, is important to the growth of a company. So we're trying to be better at finding the right people external, through all of our organization, as well as develop people. We talked about career paths, you know, building that career path for that next leader. But the way our business is evolving, you don't always have time to wait for that evolution of the next manager, next leader, or next salesperson, or next field technician even. So you do have to you do have to look external, and it's an it's a balancing act.

[00:35:50] Sarah: Yeah. For sure. Now another area we talked about related to leadership is, you know, something that that has been coming up more in conversations, which is that, in field service historically there's been a lot of progression from field technician to supervisor to director to manager and on up. Right? And in some instances, that's great. In other instances, it's sort of a formulaic way to keep people and also reward people that are doing a good job without necessarily considering whether they would be good leaders. Right? So, you know, sometimes we're putting people in these positions without really asking them if they want to lead people, understanding if they have those people leader skills and if they would be good at that. How are you handling that at ACCO?

[00:37:01] Michael: Well, we're trying to put the people in the right seats. Right? The right people in the right seats. And from a leadership perspective, you have to lead from the right place, and you have to want to be a steward of growing the team around you. Not a lot of people have that ability to prop the people around them up. So just because in the past we said, okay, this is the career progression. Here's where you're going to go, whether it's in the field or in the office. We have to make sure people are moving their career forward for the right reasons. And, if we are moving people forward in their career that don't have that dedication and the ability to build their teams and prop the people up around them, then we're just getting managers out of people. And I'm looking for leaders in my organization. So, I think it has to come from the right place. Again, I keep going back to the safe space of accountability in our organization. And, if we have a bad leader, it comes back to the culture. Like a bad employee can wreck the culture, so can a bad leader, probably more so. What’s the saying? People don't leave companies; they leave bad managers or bad leaders. That's the, you know, that's kind of the root thought behind that concept for me.

[00:39:06] Sarah: Yeah. And you don't want to be doing all of this work to get the right people in and then have them, you know, leave because you're not also reflecting as people progress internally. Are they right for this? Is this what they really want? Etcetera. Again, it's just another way of reflecting back on what has been the historical norm or the traditional process and thinking, okay. Well, is this what's right still, and is this what's right in every situation, or do we need to think about something different? On the topic of people skills, you mentioned that ACCO encourages all of its employees to take EQ training. Can you talk a little bit about that - how it's offered, the value it brings, that sort of thing?

[00:39:59] Michael: So, in my group last year we started the EQ training. The emotional intelligence, I think is a very big part of finding the right people, having the right people in the right seats. When I started down this emotional intelligence path, my perception was I'm going to learn tools to figure out how I communicate with you better. And what I found was it's not external; it's not an opportunity to look externally and figure out how the person sitting across the desk from you is reacting. It's really your behavior and how you react to the situations around you. So that was eye opening to me. I started with our leadership team. We went through an EQ workshop. We broke off and did cohorts that would work together with a consultant for a year. And we've had a lot of success with providing those tools to individuals in our organization.

[00:41:20] Sarah: Mhmm.

[00:41:21] Michael: One of the one of the side benefits that I didn't foresee was, you know, people are going back to their work places and sharing their experience and the tools that they're learning with their peers in the organization that maybe haven't gone through the emotional intelligence workshop.

[00:41:42] Sarah: Mhmm.

[00:41:42] Michael: So now we have a demand for people wanting to go through the workshop and wanting to be in the cohorts, and I think it's really helped with how we communicate as an organization. I'm really excited to continue the process and get everybody in in our service business through the workshop and a lot of them in the cohorts because we're seeing the value. Just in the way that our employees are interacting with not only our customers, but with one another.

[00:42:21] Sarah: Yeah. Well, it's interesting some of the things that you've been saying in this conversation. You know, I can tell that certainly from a leadership team perspective, there's been some effort put into this. But I think, you know, it's just it's an area I would love to see more companies investing in and really, you know, prioritizing because of the impact it has. And to your point, it's, you know, it's clearly allowed the leadership team to communicate well with one another and create those relationships where, like you said, you can have a panel interview, and afterwards, you can come together, and you can disagree, and you can challenge each other, and you can work through it and come up with what you feel is, you know, a good outcome. Allowing employees to communicate better with one another, wonderful. Allowing employees to communicate better with your customers. And it's not only about communication. Right? That's the other thing. You're encouraging people to become more curious, right, which helps people just understand others better and understand themselves better, have more tolerance for differences of opinion, you know, all of these things. And, you know, I think when we chatted, you also mentioned it's helping people in their personal lives too. Some of the people that have gone through this, you know, they're finding themselves applying it at home. And it's impacting them even beyond the workplace and just as human beings, which I think is, again, coming back to, you know, what do employees today want? They want to be seen as people. They want to be, you know, treated and valued as human beings, not just as a line on a spreadsheet or an asset. You know? And it's just another wonderful example of how you create that culture within the organization where, you're investing in them knowing that that investment pays off within but also beyond the business. So, I think it's a really great initiative.

[00:44:32] Michael: Yeah. It definitely fills my cup when I when I go around our organization and, you know, people pull me aside and say, hey. My relationship with my spouse or my children has improved because of this workshop or the cohort that I'm going through. Those are the things that I think are the most impactful for me personally. That’s what drives me. We're actually having our next EQ workshop next week and our CEO is going to attend it with us. So, it's starting to get some legs through our organization. From that, we've actually, some of the people that have gone through the EQ workshop have now started an initiative, a mental health workshop initiative. So, we've just had our first workshop for mental health, and we're going to have a couple more this year. So, it's kind of getting some legs and expanding across our organization, which is really a positive thing, I believe.

[00:45:46] Sarah: Yeah. I agree. I wanted to ask, you know, it's impossible not to think about the ways that technology will continue to change the way we work in in all industries. And, I'm curious how you see AI and more automation playing a role in sort of addressing these talent challenges and also how ACCO will keep pursuing its drive, not follow position in the industry?

[00:46:30] Michael: You know, failure to adapt to new technologies and new needs of our customers, if you're not going to adapt to it, you're going to be left behind. So, you know, my main focus is to be the leader in our industry. We have to we have to research, we have to invest in the new technologies, but we also have to be mindful of what does that mean for our employees. So, again, like all of this, it's a balancing act of, you know, do you go and try and automate every aspect of your business? Well, what we found is, you know, there's no substitute for having a person pick up the phone and answer a question for a customer. So, while we want to be more efficient, we still have to have that personal touch. We're a very, very large service business, but I believe our customers in all of our markets feel like we're still, you know, a mom-and-pop shop, and that's what we're striving towards is that customer experience while continuing to grow and automate and be more efficient. It's just a tough balance, and we want to stay on the forefront. Partnering with companies like IFS and some of our other partners have helped us kind of stay ahead of the pack, I believe. And, you know, that's where we see it going. Yeah. The other part about it is being strategic also and looking into the future and going, hey, where are we going to be in five years? You know, AI is this big buzzword. I don't think anybody can tell us accurately where AI is going to be in five years. So, using that as kind of our barometer, you know. We're trying to plan five, ten years out, but we know that there's going to be some, disruption or some pivots that we're going to have to make along the way. We have to stay nimble enough to be able to pivot when we need to.

[00:48:57] Sarah: Mhmm. For sure. I was smiling to myself because it wasn't intentional that the EQ and the AI question were next to each other, but it does represent that balance. Right? You want to think about, great, where else do we need to automate? How else can we drive efficiency? But you know there are limits to that, and you're putting equal emphasis on how do we empower our people? How do we invest in our people? How do we make sure that, you know, they get at least equal attention. Right? And I think that's such as an important reminder. Michael, I have to say, you know, I really appreciated today's conversation and our earlier conversation. When we were brainstorming for this, there was a number of ways, in trying to understand your mindset and what we were going to talk about that I challenged you, and you took that just in stride. And I think, you know, you said something earlier. You said, when you were talking about how the leadership team has created a safe space of accountability, that terminology in and of itself is so telling because in too many organizations, accountability can feel like conflict, you know, especially when it's rooted in okay, well, we have a disagreement. You know? We sat on this panel. We interviewed this candidate. I didn't like them. You like them. To challenge each other in those ways, in all of those ways, and do so in a way that you would refer to as a safe space, I think, is very telling of your approach and the company's approach and the effort that you've put into creating the culture that you have. And I you said something to me during our prep call that I've quoted numerous times in the past couple weeks. You said, I see myself as a leader that is here to challenge the status quo. How could I possibly do that if I don't allow people to challenge me? And I just really, really liked that point. And I think, there's all of these I call them old school, which is that's not meant to represent age. It's just mentality wise. These old school leadership styles that are very authoritative, very focused on controlling things, very focused on being the smartest person in the room all the time and having all the answers. And it's, in my opinion, so outdated and also so at odds with winning the talent war, if you ask me. And I just really wanted to say, like, to talk to you and to hear your mindset and not only yours, but ACCO's, you know, culture and what you're creating was just really, really refreshing. So, I genuinely appreciate it and enjoyed having these talks.

[00:52:07] Michael: Well, thank you for that. You know, the fact that you're utilizing that and having conversations with other people about what we spoke about, that's how I give back to the industry, and that's what I'm trying to do, as a company. So, thank you for that.

[00:52:30] Sarah: Yeah. Well, keep leading the charge and I hope to have you back at some point to talk about other things in the future. And thank you for being here.

[00:52:41] Michael: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Sarah, for having me on. I appreciate it.

[00:52:44] Sarah: Absolutely. You can find more by visiting the home of the UNSCRIPTED podcast at futureoffieldservice.com. The podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. And as always, thank you for listening!

Episode 308

In this heartfelt episode of UNSCRIPTED, host Sarah Nicastro sits down with Ged Cranny, Senior Consultant with Konica Minolta's International Service Business, as he reflects on his remarkable 45-year journey in field service on the cusp of retirement. From navigating the evolution of service from cost center to strategic advantage, to insights on balancing technological innovation with human connection, Ged shares candid perspectives on leadership, diversity, and the enduring importance of customer relationships. Whether you're a seasoned service leader or rising through the ranks, this conversation offers valuable wisdom on building successful service organizations while maintaining the 'family feel' that makes field service special.

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Watch the episode here:

Transcript:

[00:00:11] Sarah: Welcome to the UNSCRIPTED podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. I am joined by a good friend today, mister Ged Cranny, who is going to share with us some of the hard-earned wisdom that he has gathered over an extensive career in field service. Ged is currently Senior Consultant for Konica Minolta's International Service business. He's been with Konica Minolta since 1999 and was himself a field service engineer before that. We're going to talk about some of those things. But, Ged, you are set to retire in just a few weeks' time, which is a momentous occasion. And so, thank you for agreeing to celebrate that by coming on the podcast and having a talk with me. And, welcome!

[00:01:07] Ged: No problem. Thank you for inviting me.

[00:01:09] Sarah: Absolutely. So, before we get into our discussion for today, just tell everyone a little bit more about yourself. Anything you want to share about you, your background? You know, we're going to talk a little bit about your early career and some of the things you've learned along the way, but what else should folks know about Ged before we dig in?

[00:01:36] Ged: I grew up in a place called Middlesbrough, which is in the Northeast of England. And it's a steel and chemical town, so it's built on the furnaces of the steel making and the salt underneath that created the chemical plants along the river. It's a little bit out of the way, so as the chemicals and the steel industry reduced, obviously, the job market became a little bit harder, and people tend to move away from where I live to get work. You know? Example is my son lives in London. He's never worked in Middlesbrough, went away to university, and never came home. Oh, he does come home now and then to see me, but, obviously, not to work. I'm married to Dee and we met each other when she was working at the company I worked at. So, she left for a while, and then we bumped into each other again. And she offered me free food to go to a wedding with her, just as friends, and the free food was really nice. So, I decided that she was really nice. We got together, and we've been together now, I think we've got our 40th wedding anniversary coming up in just over just under two years. I left school to sweep up on the steelworks. At 16 years old, I left four months before everybody else left because a job came. And as I said, jobs were hard to get. So, my dad had already I come from a very traditional family, so my paperwork was always open before I got home. And my dad found out I had a job, and he'd already rang the school and told them I wouldn't be coming back. So, I start I came home on the set Friday night, started on the Monday. And I'm not joking. They taught us how to sweep up on a steelwork, which is a hilarious thing if you ever been in a steelwork. I left there, and you're going to laugh now because I'm really shy in the background. Outside of work, I have two personalities, a work personality and an outside of work. And I'm actually quite shy outside of work. And I didn't talk to people. So, unless I was on a football pitch or a sports pitch, I was really quiet. And so, I went to into retail just so I'd learn to talk to people. Plus, I wanted to learn to drive, which needed me not to be on shifts so I could work during let's say, drive during the day, sorry. Work during the day and get my driving lessons on the weekend. I passed my driving test. I saw an advert for a printer engineer job and saw this thing, magic words, you get a free car. So, I lied in the interview that I didn't just want a car, and, I got the job, in print in 1978, in the summer of nineteen seventy eight, and it's been the best thing ever. I've been all over the world. It's really good. So probably talk about that as we go.

[00:04:37] Sarah: Yeah. But,

[00:04:37] Ged: , yeah, it's cool.

[00:04:38] Sarah: It's so funny.

[00:04:39] Ged: That's true. I love sport.

[00:04:41] Sarah: Yeah. All sports?

[00:04:44] Ged: Actually, I like watching different types of sports because I like to see the dynamic of the team, and I think the dynamic of the team comes into the dynamic of work, and that's one of the things that I hold. There's a little secret a lot of people won't know about me is, and I have been honest with people who do know me close to me, is I'm actually dyslexic. So, the reason my dad wanted me out of school was I wasn't going to do many exams.

[00:05:09] Ged: I learned very, very quickly, it's not it’s not a bad thing. It's actually a talent. Yeah. I see the world differently. And especially when I go into management, I definitely see the world differently. I would sit in a room thinking, am I the only idiot in this room who can see this is easy? I'm not saying that.

[00:05:28] Sarah: I don't know if we've talked about this before.

[00:05:30] Ged: Yeah. Yeah. It's a diverse thing to have in a room. You know? We talk about diversity, but let's not just talk about, gender diversity, nationality. Let's talk about thinking types as well. Because, you know, as I said, you know, I see numbers. Somebody was joking the other day, I was talking to a new guy, and he walked through the door, and he said, has he hit with any numbers? And the guy said, he's just said something to me, and he just went whiz, whiz, whiz, whiz through the numbers. And he said, we would sit in a PowerPoint presentation. It'd be 20 slides. And on near 19, it says stop. Doesn't match with eight number eight. And he said, all he says is he sees patterns. He doesn't see numbers. He sees patterns. And you'd go back to number eight, and the number was wrong. And we'd also say, I go, how'd you do it? And he says, well, can't you do it? So, it's I'm not saying everybody has the same thing and that everybody has the same way. But I also because I was in a galactic way, classed as stupid. Remember I've got a brother. I don't know if I ever told you this, but I've got a brother whom NASA came and picked up and took to America. So, you know, all my teachers expected me to be version two, you know, of him, I. E. One play one better, and I could play football. And I think that helped in the management thing.

[00:07:01] Sarah: Yeah. Absolutely. That's really interesting. So, one thing I want to say really quick is we did a podcast a while back with a gentleman from Phillips named Tristan Lavender all about neurodiversity. And to your point about, you know, diversity is very important, and we know that, but it isn't, you know, any one thing. I mean, that's what makes it diversity. Right? And we need to think about the ways that people are wired differently and what that means in terms of, you know, one, what superpowers that gives. But also, what accommodations we need to make, in terms of, you know, eliminating bias.

[00:07:45] Ged: and making them be included.

[00:07:45] Sarah: and able to thrive in in a work environment. So it's a really good episode to check out if anyone's interested in that. The other thing I was going to say is, I get asked a lot, like, how did you get into field service? And I'm like, well, I, like, happened into it. I mean, I don't know. And it's always funny when I talk to people about how they got it. You know, to you, it was a free car. Right? Like, that was the hook. And then here you are all of these years later, absolutely love it. And there is something so special about it, but it's something that, like, it's hard to describe to someone that hasn't been in it. And it's even harder to, I think, paint a picture of if someone doesn't understand what the world of service is. , so the way we all sort of serendipitously end up here, but then fall in love with it, I just think is really interesting. So, let's go back, Ged, to you started in your first role as a service engineer back in 1978. So, I want to ask you two questions. One is, what is, I mean, I'm sure there's many, many things that have changed, but what is one thing that's changed that you wish hadn't changed since then?

[00:09:08] Ged: I think that it was more of a family that I came into.

[00:09:15] Ged: So, I spent fourteen years with these people. I actually shut the branch down. It was my first ever round of redundancy. So it was really, really hard, but the company who made me do it realized that, you know, if you're going to train somebody how to do this, you've got to give them the hardest one to do first, I think. But it was that sense of a family. And I know we all talk about these silos and things like this. But there wasn't a silo. You know, I had my badge as engineer. People had their badges as administration. People had their badges as sales. But we all mucked in together. You know, give you an example, our office was a real outlier office. We decided we were a tax dodge because nobody ever came to see us. And we decided the building was really bad, so we all chipped some of our money in, and we spent our weekend cleaning the place, and we painted it over many weekends. And when people came down from head office, we had the nicest office. And it was because it was it was it was our togetherness. It was our family. When you get into that corporate, it becomes faster. It becomes regimented. People have the guards up at the doors and such like. And service are the ones who want to open the doors. You know? If you serve, there's a there's a clue in what we do. It's that team mentality. You know, I go back to the sports thing. It's about that collaborative. It's about this team mentality. So, we would always come out, and I take that from where I was. So that's one of the things I feel that's been lost. You know, we didn't just go to work. You know, I was in at work at 07:00 in the morning because I like being at work, because it's part of family. I was in at work at 07:00, eight o'clock at night. I think when I came in 1999 to Konica, it was the first time that I had a weekend off. I hadn't been on holiday since '78. It was ingrained into me, Saturdays, Sundays. If we needed to work, we worked. I've seen me I've seen me in the office at 02:00 in the morning in the before Konica Minolta and back in the office by six, seven o'clock because we had something big going. So, yeah, I think I think that's one thing that I would say it was bad. It is missing. But you try and recreate it in your teams. I'll try and make sure that was happening in teams. One thing that I don't miss is health and safety was, a word. You know, my second week, so the second Thursday, I rolled the car off. If we'd have been wearing seat belts in them days, and if you'd had headrests, I'd be dead. In fact, I didn't have seat belts and headrests. I ended up in the boot of the car. The window smashed down. I went out the back window, but the car had stopped by the time I went out the back window. So, I literally just fell out, and guess what? I worked overtime that night.

[00:12:17] Sarah: Wow.

[00:12:19] Ged: I still remember it. And now I worked overtime the night after. So, the health and safety side of things was, you know, let's go and get a beer. You survived it. Let's go with it. And I think nowadays, to be real thinking about, wait a minute. You know? Why are we putting somebody in a car? So whenever I got anybody new in the business, especially trainees, even as fast as driving, just they didn't get a car until they spent a few days out with us with them driving and us taking them to the worst places you could possibly take them and telling them how to get through certain you don't have these things in America called roundabouts.

[00:12:53] Sarah: We do have some, Ged, just not as many. Yes.

[00:12:57] Ged: Not as many. So, we have these things, you know, multiple. So you take them out and you do that. And one of the things, it sits in in the back of there. I don't want somebody having the experience that I had. Yeah. So, yeah, health and safety would be a negative to that as well.

[00:13:10] Sarah: Yeah. Now what is a change, a major change, that you've been thrilled to see?

[00:13:18] Ged: Service coming from being not spoke about in the sale to being right front and center. Service turned into a profit center. So very much, you know, I have to blame the Americans for this because two American companies started buying up in my industry, in the nineties, and then we were profit centers. And one of the eye openers was the fact I went to Florida. I was really lucky. I went out to Florida as one of the managers, and I met the CEO of the business. Whole business came out. He was having a fat break, and he came around the car and started talking to us. And he went, you guys are the most important. Now words are words. But he flew to a UK to a board meeting, and he heard that we were on a training course. And everybody was cleaning the place as you would because the new boss is coming, and he's going to be in the head office. And I heard the commotion in the reception because we were just off reception. And he said, are my service guys here? And they went, yes. So through there. And the first people he came to see was us. He came and sat down with us, and it was the whole group, not just the 14 of us. And he sat down. He'd remembered all of the 14 guys who'd been over there, their names, whether somebody was in his ear telling us telling him, okay. But he said that, and it lifted the team. It he told us we were going to be profit centers. He told us we were going to be front center of the business, and he and he lived to that. And yeah, I've sat in meetings now where sales have struggled talking to a customer, and you started talking service and the customer has bought because of service, and that's cool. That's a big change for me.

[00:15:05] Sarah: It is.

[00:15:05] Ged: Yeah. And we never go back in the box.

[00:15:08] Sarah: That's right. What is one thing about field service that you wish more people understood?

[00:15:18] Ged: I think I think to be perfectly truthful, it's more complex. So people are just saying it's, yeah, let's get a screwdriver out or let's you know, you're an engineer. So this is what's really upset me about the fact that in ’94 or ‘95, I went to America and saw female engineers. And came back; I won't tell you what my manager said to me at the time when I told him that I wanted female engineers in the UK. You’d probably turned me off right at this moment in time for not fighting hard enough. But, trying to sell that engineering isn't just for white males.. It's for it's not just for people who've been to university. Actually, some of the dyslexic who never get there have got the brain and the wider brain to be able to do what they need to do. But, again, I'll give you an example of something. And this on this was only 2012/2013. Sent my guys (and when I say guys, you know, it's like that's my just wording for people, male, female as well). But I sent my guys to a university/college, the two things together, recruitment show.

[00:16:58] Ged: And at the end of day one, I dropped in, and I said, nobody's coming to that stand. Couple of feet will come just to nick badges. I said, okay. What are you telling them? We can't get them into the stand. And then I looked at the stand, and I looked at the late HR lady, and I went, this says, male. Doesn't say anything female. But I said, right. Service is about speaking to people. It's about empathy. And I went, not being funny, out of the male and female. Right? Men are secondary. Second massively. It's about being able to use your brain because it's about there's mathematics in it. Alright? Not being funny, there's no difference. And I said, actually, most of the ladies I know are as good at myself, not better, than most of the girls I know. And I went, it's about organizing, being disciplined. It's about, you know, getting out on a morning, getting in the car on a cold day when you do and you don't want to do something. And I said, anybody can do that. We can train that. That's a trained habit. I went, why is this not more written? So that somebody comes on. So, we rewrote it on the evening, and we were giving out flyers, which basically said, do you like talking to people? Do you like Solving people's problems? I do you like, you know, being organized with self-discipline, doing, you know, doing what you need and delivering? And suddenly, we got more diversity coming towards us. Now okay. One of the big questions, how many lady engineers do you have? Not many. It's so suddenly pushed away. So, we had to restart the stories. But what I like to see is there are more diverse people coming into our business, and the fact that it should be open to all because it's not just one skill, and everybody sees it as one skill.

[00:19:01] Sarah: Yeah. It’s about so much more.

[00:19:01] Ged: No turn the screwdriver, lefty, turn the screwdriver, righty. That's not how it works.

[00:19:08] Ged: Logical fixing. I think an engineer's job with the screwdriver in his hand, we've done it on training courses, and it always ends up with a maxim of 25%. Seventy-five % is that problem solving, thinking. It's that it's that getting yourself disciplined. It's about customer and looking after customer.

[00:19:27] Sarah: Yeah. No. That's a really good point. Now here's another one. So, the pace of change has picked up tremendously since you first entered the world of service. So what is your view on, you know, the importance of innovation and how companies and leaders need to stay relevant and stay competitive?

[00:20:02] Ged: Can I come at that from a slightly different angle?

[00:20:04] Sarah: Sure. Of course.

[00:20:07] Ged: Right. I keep hearing people telling me about solutions. And they usually link that to software. And, you know, I work in a company where we sell solutions. But when I asked you know, in the past when I've asked people, and I said, okay. It's a solution. To what? So my thing I would say is build your strategy on where your business needs to be to be profitable. Build a strategy where you can put yourself separate from your competitors without hurting your profitability, but excelling in front of your customers. You know? Always look to excel in front of your customers. That's the key. You know? Often, it might be slightly less today. But if you measure over ten, fifteen-year period, it'll be greater because, actually, then customers become loyal, then customers stay, then customers become trusted with you. And I think too many people buy a piece of software and think that it's the solution. Now we just move on to the next problem.

[00:21:19] Ged: It's got to be an enabler and an accelerator in your strategy.

[00:21:25] Ged: So whenever I'm talking to someone, I always go back and say, what's your strategy? What are you trying to achieve? Okay. So where's the hole that this software solution is going to fit? And I think that's the bit. You know, innovation is great. Innovation just to be trending. It's dangerous to your customers. It's dangerous to your employees. It's dangerous to your profit line.

[00:21:57] Sarah: Yeah. I agree and I think that's a really good point. And I think when it comes to, if I understood you correctly, like, when it comes to how to stay relevant, stay competitive, you're saying, like, that needs to be centered around customers. Right? I mean, what do customers need? What you know, we just chatted about this a little bit before we started recording, but, you know, your observations early on of how what customers needed was shifting, right, and getting ahead of that. So it isn't just about, you know, keeping pace technologically. I mean, that's obviously completely different today than it was, you know, even ten years ago. Right? But it it's about staying close to your customers and those relationships and understanding, you know, what their challenges are.

[00:22:56] Ged: So, the most important thing, Sarah, is to understand is where does your product fit in your customer's journey and their customer's journey? Because if it doesn't fit, at some point, you become irrelevant to that customer.

[00:23:09] Sarah: Right.

[00:23:10] Ged: Right. So, you know, I joke with people now that we don't sell printers. We sell digital input and digital output devices. So I have this theory in life. It's probably wrong, but it works for me. And that is that there's four or five different types of customers. I actually read something the other week that somebody else has said the similar sort of thing, and they were talking about the different, you know, the sixties children, the eighties children, the yeah. The ones since 2020, and saying that they want to be spoke to differently, but there's also that culture fight in between them all inside your own businesses and inside businesses. If you're not relevant to your customers, it doesn't work. So each one of them wants to use paper in a different way, but you can't suddenly turn around to, right, we are a digital company. So if you don't if you want to deal with us, then you've got to come in digitally. Well, great. But customers have a choice. Unless you're working with the government, pretty much you have a choice. So give the customers that choice. So if somebody wants to come in analog, scan it in your machine. It becomes digital in your systems. When the customer needs that to come out, then it's safe. It goes back through the machine. It goes into analog, post it to the customer, how the customer wants it. It can actually send it electronically, but store it differently, all the different things. So, you know, just silly word. It's a digital input, an output device. And people are, like, looked at us like we were crazy six, seven years ago, and we were saying, well, you know, don't say print that that, say, digital input. It's loud. Right? How would you do that? Well, because people, you know, have this bad thing about we kill trees. And we don't, actually, because trees are planted so that they're, , the food for the machines and, you know, recycle paper and such. But the most important thing is you're reacting to where your customer is And your customer's journey. So where are they on their digitization, as everybody calls it? Where are they on their eco? Where are they, and where are their customers? Where are the niggles? And how do they process, and how do you fit into that? And that's the most important thing. Start to understand which piece of the jigsaw you fit and how important you are to that business. Because the more you understand that, the more you can give to your customer, the more that you give to your employees to make them excel in front of your customer. And that's the most that's really important, allowing your employees to in to perform really well in front of the customer. That's a manager's job, help your person perform to their best.

[00:25:53] Sarah: Absolutely.

[00:25:54] Ged: Does that answer the question? Or was it bit too offside?

[00:25:56] Sarah: No. It is. It does. And, actually, you just said, you know, it's a manager's job to allow your people to succeed. Right? And that brings me to another point, which is, if I had a dollar for every time I've heard someone say service is a is a people business, you know, I would, I would be rich.

[00:26:20] Ged: You'd be rich.

[00:26:21] Sarah: And I agree wholeheartedly. I mean, I really, really do. So I'm interested you know, we are in and expanding into the AI era. Right? And I don't think that will change the fundamental truth that service is a people business, but it will change what that looks like. Right? And so what are your thoughts on how we continue to prioritize people and humanity in parallel with, you know, that technological innovation?

[00:27:00] Ged: I probably go back to what I've just said, which is speak to your customers. Not all your customers want to talk to a bot. You know, I get you know, again, I have a mobile phone like everybody else in the world. I've been with my mobile phone company for, like, fifteen, twenty years, same one. Not because I'm lazy, but because, you know, when somebody gives me good service, that's fine. But I got into a loop with the bot the other day, and it got really annoying. And I'm digital. I'm a very digital person. Right. Yeah. I was so angry at the end of it. I actually was so

[00:27:42] Sarah: you can just feel your blood pressure rise. You know? It's crazy.

[00:27:46] Ged: Just kept answering stupider and stupider questions. But if you're going to do these things, test it yourself.

[00:27:57] Ged: And don't just test it today and go, right, sign it off. Keep testing it. Keep knocking on the door. Have reviews of what you're doing and how you're interacting with your customer. Go and see your customers and sit in front of them. Do you use our portal? Yes. I do. Or, no. I don't. I don't use the portal because it's annoying. Right? Okay. Why is it annoying? You know, the whole idea of this is to make it 24/7 easy for you to use. You know? It's more profitable. It helps us to be more profitable. But I think if you're going to set these things up at this moment, don't just set it up because it's going to make you more profit. Make it so that it makes your customer journey better. Make it so that it makes your engineer journey better. Make it so that it makes, you know, people's interaction with your department better so they want to come more. They want to they think you as a trusted adviser. Because remember, the more you use the bots, they become your trusted adviser. And if they're stupid, no good. Remember, it's always said when I was growing up, the first sale is won by sales. Thereafter, it's service. Salesman just walks in. Yes. He'll have some negotiation to do, and he'll tell you that it was the best thing in the world. But after that, it's the service. Now I've had customers over the years who I had some who literally rang up as I came to Konica and basically went, you didn't tell us you were leaving. And I went, I'm not allowed to. And I went, but we're allowed to write to you and tell you we're coming. And, and I went, you are allowed to write to them, but I'm not allowed to take you. People buy from people.

[00:29:42] Ged: So remember that. With the automation, make it make the feeling that your customer isn't on a boat ride in Disney, that they're going to get splashed at the end of it. Make them feel like it's, you know, the ingots ding gets ride or ingots ride. And it's going to be really exciting at the end. And there's a shop at the end. I wouldn't sell them more.

[00:30:08] Sarah: Yeah. Well and to your point earlier, you know, technology is an enabler. And, you know, one of the things that, I think is exciting about where we are right now and, you know, this is, again, we were chatting about this before we got on. Right? The journey that Konica is on with IFS to, you know, automate a lot of things without taking away from the importance that the people are playing. That's the thing that's exciting to me is there's so many opportunities within field service to apply these tools in a way that truly is helpful. Not saying it's easy and it's not different, but it's, you know, it's not taking away from, you know, the special role that the hand plays. It's taking away a lot of the inefficiency or, you know, unnecessary stuff around it so that they can do what they do well when it makes sense. Right? So I think that has to be the focus. Right? It's not, you know, how much can we get rid of or how much can we replace, but how much smarter can we work. Right? And that's they're very different things.

[00:31:21] Ged: I think to be perfectly truthful, so one of one of our things has been a remote by default. Before COVID, 2017/2018, I know we were talking about it, and it's starting to accelerate. We've had the IoT in our machines for since the eighties.

[00:31:39] Ged: But really bringing it together, bringing the tools together. But that brings a different type of problem.

[00:31:46] Ged: Because we talked earlier, how would you get people in the service? You know? How would you get that diversity in the service? How would you get people to come to service? And, you know, it's hard. When I talk to people across all industries, everybody says, yeah, everyone wants to go and sit and play with a computer. Nobody wants to be an engineer, because the first thing they think of, they're going to have dirty hands. It's going to be horrible. They're going to be cold. They're going to be in a field. There's lots of different types of engineering to think about. And where we've got all these people, you know, the average age is growing in all the industry, all the people I talk to. So let's get that knowledge. You know? I'll be honest. At twenty years old, I decided I didn't want to be carrying a tool case around When I was 60. And so I was going into management, and these people are getting to the fifties. It's a hard job. It's hard work. It's hard labor. Now bring that and start now taking the knowledge that then we can use to in enhance the world of our engineers For our customers as well. So, the bots actually talk to them sensibly, and it gives them the right information for the people who want to just look up the information.

[00:32:57] Ged: And it makes sure that it enhances what they do. So we changed the name of a of a scheduler to an exception handler And then sat down and said, right. Okay. Your job is not just to go, oh, somebody's shouting at me today, so I'm just going to make this call better. What we say turn around and say, right. Why is somebody shouting at you? Why did this call get to a point where, contractually, the customer's not happy with us? Why is it capacity? Is it, you know, we missed it. The system's not set up right. The algorithm's not right. If we set if we fix it today, we fix it for a hundred days, two hundred days. And now people are starting to see the benefit of what they're doing. They're getting more excited about that. Yes. It frees up time, but then when that time frees up, guess what? They're starting to do things in the shift left piece and And then using customer skills for more complex problems that the bots can't solve and things like this so that we then become proactive with the customers. And are we there? No. We're on a journey. Will we ever get there? I hope not, because I want that journey to continue forever. Because different types of customers will, as we said earlier, will come in with different types of needs. We'll hopefully break into different types of markets, which ask us for different and more complex fixes. We can use our knowledge of the past with landed with tools to give the service of the future. And I think this still needs human knowledge. This still needs the right things. If you just go for cuts straight away, yeah, your accountant's going to be happy. But five, six years' time, you're going to be walking a tightrope.

[00:34:45] Sarah: Yeah. For sure. I agree. Okay. Two more questions. The next one is, what is one lesson you've learned in your career the hard way?

[00:35:10] Ged: I think it is you're never as clever as you think you are, and always try and learn. Don't just sit with your peer group and learn. Go and sit with customers. Go and sit with engineers. Go and sit with people's departments that work with you and tell them how your department reflects because it's how you reflect. And I think however good you think you've got, get somebody that can tell you you're not as good as you think you are And be willing to take that on board. I think years ago, I when I was hiding the dyslexia and things, I would get grumpy and defensive. So I think my learning thing is not to get grumpy and defensive when somebody tells me that I'm ugly. You know, if one person tells me I'm ugly, laugh at it. If two people tell me I'm ugly, start thinking I'm ugly. When the third person tells me, well, maybe I'm ugly to them, maybe there's somebody else in the world. You know? Fiona waiting for me.

[00:36:21] Sarah: Yeah, it makes me think I just had a conversation with someone recently, and I thought this was such a good point. You know? He said that, I’m someone who thinks that a big part of my job is challenging the status quo, but I can't do that if I don't welcome people to challenge me. You know? And, I thought that was really smart. Right? It takes, I think, time and confidence to get to a point where you're comfortable with that. But ultimately, you know, you are better when you can reflect on those points. So yeah. Okay. And last one, can you share one of your proudest moments?

[00:37:30] Ged: Yeah. It's going to sound weird this, but I left The UK two days before the COVID shutdown. And I left my team because I moved from the business to the hit the HQ in Germany, and they thrived in the COVID, which was the hardest time ever.

[00:37:57] Ged: You know, I was in workshops with different people from different companies talking about how frightened everybody was. They thrived. They grew, but they're doing a fantastic job. They took me out the other night. I'll be honest. They took me out the last Tuesday night to say goodbye six years after I left them. Five, six years, sorry, after I left them. And, I told them the proudest moment was seeing them thrive in probably the hardest time I've ever seen for service, come out the other side, battered, beaten. They kept all the engineers. They kept the customers, they've started to grow the customers again, and they're doing a great job. And their thinking styles have changed, and I just told them that there's no prouder moment than seeing your team go to a higher level than you could have ever taken them, and they did it by themselves. So that's the proudest moment.

[00:38:55] Sarah: Well, that is that is a really good moment, Ged, but, also, you played a role in that. They were able to do that without you, but that's in part because of the impact you had had, undoubtedly. So, you know, it's like it's probably similar to watching your child, you know, excel at something and feeling like they're doing it on their own. You know, and you played a part in that foundation. But, you know, the pride you have in watching them apply it. Right? And, yeah.

[00:39:37] Ged: Most important most important thing, you know, is team. It is it is you know, if my engineers hadn't turned up to work each day, I had 84 at this peak, I think, about 84,000 printers to go and fix. Trust me. That's the day they could bring the white jacket. They put my arms around my back, fasten it really tight, and put me in a nice padded room because it's not going to happen. These guys put themselves out. We had this thing called the beast in the east in the UK a few years ago. That was the first time we'd ever shut service down in the time. So some of the engineers, one of them had an off road, really good off road car. So he rang the engineers, and they drove to a hospital because they knew the hospitals were under pressure. They stayed all day, and they were actually helping with patients, moving patients about, helping the people in the place. They stayed on the hospital, and the hospital rang me two days later to say, your engineers were fantastic. I said, no. No. My engineers were off the road. And they went, no. No. No. Your engineers came to our hospital because they knew our staff would be down. They helped with fixed there were some printers that were down, so they fixed the printers. And then what they did was they made sure they helped ground the hospital.

[00:41:00] Ged: And I just went, wow.

[00:41:02] Sarah: That's awesome.

[00:41:03] Ged: Yeah. Absolutely. And it's to me, that's that there were moments where I just sat there and just went, you're the luckiest guy in the world. You are the luckiest guy in the world. And, genuinely, I've met some great people along the way. You included. Mike, who you're going to talk to later. But I met some great people. There are things in people you don't want, but there's a lot of good things in people. You take them and things from them. And, you know, I've been really lucky. I've had some great people mentor me. I've had some great people just chat with me and keep me going. And I've had some unbelievable, unbelievable people work with me, work for me, and just excel in front of the customers. So that's the proudest moment.

[00:41:48] Ged: Oh my god. I'm gushing.

[00:41:50] Sarah: Well, Ged, listen, it has been an absolute honor, , not only to have this conversation with you, but to get to know you , to spend time with you, to become friends. And, you know, I know that you have some fun adventures planned and you and Dee are going to enjoy some travels and some good times. But I also know that you'll be around the service community. You couldn't stay away if you tried. And so, you know, we'll certainly stay in touch, and , I have a feeling you'll appear again on the podcast at some point. So, thank you very, very much for everything, honestly.

[00:42:35] Ged: No problem at all. Thank you. Thank you for this chat and thank you for all the support over the time.

[00:42:39] Sarah: Absolutely. Alright, Ged, okay. So, you can find more by visiting the home of the UNSCRIPTED podcast at futureoffieldservice.com. The podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thank you for listening!

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