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March 12, 2025 | 34 Mins Read

Communication Matters: Skills to Create Highly Engaged Service Teams

March 12, 2025 | 34 Mins Read

Communication Matters: Skills to Create Highly Engaged Service Teams

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Episode 307

Sarah sits down with Jason Anthoine, a veteran of internal communications with 35 years of experience, to unpack the critical balance between high-tech and high-touch communication, discuss how to leverage internal influencers effectively, and reveal why many leaders unconsciously 'under-lead.' Together, they:

• Explore why now is a critical time for organizations to reimagine their approach to employee experience, particularly in the wake of pandemic-driven workplace changes

• Discuss the three pillars of effective employee engagement: inform, involve, and inspire - examining how these elements work together to create meaningful workplace connections

• Examine the crucial balance between high-tech and high-touch communication approaches, emphasizing the importance of personal interaction in maintaining employee engagement

• Analyze the unique challenges of keeping field service teams connected to company culture, particularly when they spend significant time at customer sites

• Consider the power of small, consistent actions in building trust and engagement, from handwritten notes to personal check-ins, versus relying solely on large corporate initiatives

• Explore the concept of internal influencers and their impact on organizational culture, including how to identify and effectively collaborate with these key team members

• Address the phenomenon of "under-leading" and discuss how leaders can stay connected to their teams' needs by maintaining empathy and remembering their own early career experiences

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Transcript:

[00:00:05] Sarah: Welcome to the UNSCRIPTED podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today, we are going to be answering the question, is it time to reimagine your approach to employee experience? I would say spoiler alert, for many, it is. But we'll get into all of that. I'm excited to welcome to the podcast today, Jason Anthoine, who has thirty-five years of experience in internal communications, employee engagement, and culture change, and is here today to share some of the insights that he has gleaned with us. So, Jason, welcome to the podcast!

[00:00:47] Jason:  Great. Thank you so much, Sarah. I'm so pleased to be here.

[00:00:50] Sarah:  Yeah. Pleased to have you. So, before we get into the matter at hand, tell everyone a little bit more about yourself. Anything you want to share about you, the work you do, your background, anything like that.

[00:01:03] Jason:  Okay. Great. Well, a lot of people ask, you know, how did you even get into in well, first of all, what is internal comms? Then secondly, how did you even get into that? And it's kind of a, you know, pure story. I grew up in a very small town in Middle Georgia, and my dad worked at the school bus factory, and my mom was a secretary at the bank. And when I was a kid, they'd come home from work and talk about work just like all parents do. And I think most kids are like, I don't even know what they're talking about. Who cares? But I would just listen to them, you know? What works? What's not working? What leader did they like? What leader they didn't like? Changes that they would make if they were in charge and all that kind of stuff. And it, you know, it just kinda stuck with me. And, you know, when I went to college at University of Georgia, majored in public relations and then graduated on a Saturday, moved to Atlanta on a Sunday, and first job on Monday was doing the employee newsletter at a bank. And that is about thirty-five and a half years ago, and I'm still doing employee communications. I like it a lot better than some of the other aspects of communications because, you know, things that I say or do or have other leaders say or do, I can see an immediate impact from those things. Other times, you know, external communications and PR and marketing and stuff, you know, it takes a little, you know, difficult math to come to that same conclusion. But with this other stuff, I mean, you could just see it immediately. So, it's just in me it's just in me, and I don't know how to get it out of me. So as my old boss used to say, if you can't fix it, feature it. So, I've just been featuring it for thirty-five years now.

[00:02:45] Sarah:  Excellent. Now what has changed is how you're going about that. So, you mentioned, you know, when you  finished your degree and you went to work, you were doing internal comms for different organizations. If LinkedIn is correct, the last role you had doing that was for Newell Brands as the vice president of corporate communications, and that came to a close in early 2018. And since then, you have been working with organizations, so doing consultancy around communications and also around this idea of employee experience and evolving cultures by creating better forms of communication with teams and, of course, everything that comes from that. So, very cool trajectory. So, we're going to get into some of the advice you have based on the work you do. But let's talk first about, you know, why now is such an important time for organizations and leaders to be reimagining what they're offering in terms of employee experience.

[00:04:16] Jason:  Yeah. Wow. That's such a huge thing. And, you know, to me, first of all, I mean, isn't every day a good time to be better? So that’s one reason. Yeah. That's one reason why now. The second reason, though, is a little bit bigger than that, and everybody listening will certainly be nodding their heads. Like, it just feels like the dynamic at work has changed. It has been changing, and then, you know, they put a turbo on it when the pandemic came.

[00:04:44] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:04:45] Jason: It just completely sort of turned everything upside down. And, you know, you were talking about some work I had done, you know, at Newell and things like that. I distinctly remember almost all the conversations that I would ever have in my career prior to the pandemic was around why we ought to do more communications and what is that going to get us if we do it. And then the pandemic happened, and all of a sudden, we don't have to have conversations about why anymore. I think, you know, everybody, for the most part, had to go home. Leaders were, you know, leading town halls from their breakfast room tables. Like, everything was completely different, compared to how it was before that. And I think because of that, leaders especially, you know, had their own sort of hands-on experience about what this internal comms and employee experience stuff is all about, which changed their mindset. Which was fantastic timing because all of their employees also changed their mindset about the relationship with work and where I do work and, you know , what I expect from work. And a lot of that is influenced by their lives away from work, particularly around comms channels. So, think about, you know, your own employees when they're not at work. There are billions of people on all these social media platforms. That's who they are. They're your employees. And so, they're used to those types of things. And so, when they come back into work, that's their expectation. So, you know, we used to be able to get away with not meeting that. Now, you know, with turnover being what it is and people have different choices, you got to do everything you can to sort of meet those expectations. And so, if there was ever a time to sort of reimagine what we're doing to, you know, inform, involve, and inspire these folks, then now's the time to do it. Because they're voting with their feet for the most part. And if they're not really getting what they want from this organization, they're going to go find one that they can get that from.

[00:06:53] Sarah:  Yeah. Yeah. Now it's interesting, Jason, when, you know, when you talk about comms, it you know, internal comms, employee comms. Mhmm. The first thing that comes to mind for me is the inform piece. When you talk then about employee experience, that's when I start to bring into the fold the involve and inspire piece. And I think they're all very important. So, inform, involve, inspire. Can you talk about why each of those are important, you know, and how they work together? And, also, is there a commonality in where companies tend to fall short?

[00:07:37] Jason:  Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question, particularly around inform, because I think a lot of people, you know, when they think of internal communications, they think of, you know, the communications that are coming out of corporate or headquarters that somebody else is sending. And, you know, I call that sort of the big C, the capital C, Communications.

[00:07:58] Sarah: Mhmm.

[00:07:58] Jason:  and in most organizations, that should be around 10%. No more than 10% really of the communications that are going on inside a workplace. The other part of that is the lowercase c, communications, which is everything else. Leaders to leaders, leaders to their teams, teams to each other. And all of that represents, you know, at least 90% of the communications that's going on in the organization. So, a lot of times, companies will say, well, you know, we're communicating from the corporate level. And so, me as a leader or a manager way down in the middle somewhere, I don't have to do any of that because, you know, the Corp Comms team is doing that for me. And, yeah, the Corp Comms team is probably doing 10% of what needs to be done, but you, leaders, and all everyone else in the organization are responsible for that 90%. And all of that creates sort of this communications cloud around the organization so that communications are happening, not necessarily just by corp comms, but from everybody in the organization. So, it's a culture of communications. And the natural extension of, once you've really strengthened those relationships through communications, then it naturally leads to having people want to be more involved and figuring out how to inspire them to do those things. And all of those combined, I think, are what sort of makes up what we call employee experience. And, you know, if you look at all the survey data around why people like work and what happens if they decide to leave and things like that, most of their answers, you know, pay is maybe eight, nine, 10, if it's in the top 10. For most people, it is something around their experience at work. And a lot of those things fall under that inform, involve, and inspire. So if you want to have that kind of culture that you want with low turnover and high engagement and things like that that are important, then you really need to just continue to focus on inform, involve, and inspire because all the things that they list that they want are made up in those three areas.

[00:10:14] Sarah:  Yeah. There's a couple of things that come to mind here. Right? One is, I think sometimes companies make the mistake of thinking that if they do a good job informing, the inspire piece will follow without considering the involve. And I think that can be a huge mistake because people want to feel a part of, you know, what's going on. They want to feel that they're, you know, contributing to the big picture. They want to see how their individual roles play a part. They want to feel that their voice matters. Right? So, if we asse that if we, as a big c or a little c, just do a really good job of informing everyone, then they'll feel inspired.

[00:11:04] Jason:  Mhmm.

[00:11:04] Sarah:  You know, you can really miss the mark if you don't consider that involve piece. , and, you know, I was also thinking about some of the distinctions between looking at this from sort of a programmatic perspective. Right? And, like, what are the different mechanisms that we use to inform, involve, inspire as a big c and a little c. Right?

[00:11:32] Jason:  Mhmm. Sure.

[00:11:34] Sarah: But also from the leadership/EQ perspective. Right? Because, again, I've seen examples where organizations have a great program for communications, and they have, you know, they're diversifying the channels they use. They're welcoming feedback. They're encouraging leaders to do one on ones, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. But then it falls short at the leadership level because maybe those leaders, you know, don't have the right training or skills or that sort of thing to then execute well that, you know, they're a part of that 90%. Right? And so, you know, sometimes the disconnect between really good intent at the at the executive leadership level and creating a program for all of this then fall short in execution if you are relying on leaders who don't get it, don't buy into it, or just don't have the skills to deliver. So, what thoughts do you have there?

[00:12:51] Jason:  That that's absolutely right. And I would add another thing to that, which is the time. You know? Mhmm. There's so much piled on leaders' plates. I don't care if you're an executive leader or you're a frontline supervisor. You know? There are tons of expectations, and when people, you know, like the comms team come to you and go, hey we need you to do this kind of stuff. You're like, okay. When? Like, look at all this other stuff, that's part of my quote “day job.” You know, when am I going to have time to do these kinds of things? And I think, you know, to your point, sometimes they don't have the skills, and so the comms team might say, okay, we'll help you. Here's some talking points, which is fine. But most of the time, they don't necessarily need the content. They need the confidence.

[00:13:38] Jason:  And when they, in their minds, think about, alright, we're like, what are CEOs that I know who communicate, they immediately think of these rock star CEOs and, you know, in the media and people who are doing TED Talks, and they're like, I don't that's not me. I can't do those kinds of things. Well, the good news is 99% of the entire world is exactly the same way. Mhmm. So, there's none of your employees who are expecting you to be a rock star or some TED Talk level communicator.

[00:14:07] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:14:07] Jason: They're just expecting you to be yourself. And you will get all kinds of bonus points just for trying. Just for trying, you know, trying to do it, trying to meet them where they are, trying, you know, to make it. You will get all kinds of credit just by doing that. And then I think too, you know, to your point around, how does that sometimes sort of, you know, if it's programmatic at the top and then it starts to fall apart the more the execution happens, you know, as it goes down through the organization, some of that, you know, obviously is with managers and leaders and supervisors that are in the middle, but some of that is also on the employees. Mhmm. You know? You know how it is. Everybody on this podcast knows how it is. How many times do you have to tell people to sign up for their benefits, and then on the last hour of the last day, there are people who go, I didn't get any of that information. Well, sure you did. Mhmm. Sure, you did. You got it. And, you know so a lot of times, employees themselves aren't open to being communicated with for a variety of reasons. I'm mad. I'm broke. I don't like my job. I don't like my you know, whatever. There are a thousand things. And so it just takes, you know, everybody sort of shifting that mindset and reimagining things so that, like we said earlier, just creating this culture of communication so that tiny incremental steps can be made that over time, you know, make a huge difference, but not all at once because you don't have the capacity or the resources or the skills or the time to do any of that stuff. But chipping away at it is the best way to execute it no matter how big and programmatic the initiative might feel.

[00:15:49] Sarah:  Yeah. So, the next thing I want to talk about, Jason, is you talk about the need to balance high-tech and high touch.

[00:15:59] Jason:  Mhmm.

[00:16:00] Sarah:  Okay? So, can you talk about that a little bit?

[00:16:04] Jason:  Yeah. So, you know, back on the theme of programmatic sort of big c communications, most of that, where possible, is usually delivered with high-tech platforms: emails, intranets, apps, digital signage, you know, you name it. Everybody who kind of has access to those things gets delivered information and communications that way, which is fine. You know, that's a fast way. And for the people who are connected, you know, it's an easy way to reach them. But for those who aren't connected, you know, you don't have an email address. You can't get on the Internet. The only time you really have to look at anything is when you're at home and you certainly, you know, don't have access or a VPN or anything like that that maybe some of the other people have. And so, you know, after a while and for particular audiences, those high-tech platforms start to kind of fuzz out a little bit. And so, the supplement for those things is more of a high touch, kind of old school approach.

[00:17:05] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:17:06] Jason:  Particularly if you have frontline employees who aren't digitally connected.

[00:17:12] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:17:12] Jason:  They don't have access to any of that stuff. They only have access to you. So now you become the channel. You become the platform. And so, there's all kinds of benefit to, you know, holding those shift change meetings, making sure that, you know, people who aren't digitally connected are included in conversations and, you know, idea sessions and things like that. Mhmm. All of that field start it is what sort of puts some meat on the involve and inspire part.

[00:17:42] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:17:43] Jason:  Because as good as these platforms are and as, you know, good as some of the content is that that's coming out from a big c perspective, all of that just feels rational. That's just a rational approach. But hans are also emotional, and so this high touch approach to supplement all that stuff is kind of what gets you over that hurdle because now you're meeting them where they are as hans, Hans to hans communicating and building relationships. And then when you rely on those high-tech platforms too much, it just it starts to feel just kind of cold and check a box kinda thing.

[00:18:20] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:18:21] Jason:  And I don't mind getting that stuff from corporate, but I want my peers. I want my boss. I want other people to translate that and tell me what they feel about that. And I want to tell them what I feel about that. So, there's more to it than just delivering it over a platform. Mhmm.

[00:18:37] Sarah:  Yeah. You use the word rational. I was thinking the word impersonal. Right? It goes back to the inform piece. It's a great way to stay informed. It's, you know, the news, the headlines. Here's what you need to know. Right? But it's not it's not personal. It's not the context of, okay, and here's what this means to you in your role. And, also, let me listen to what you think. Let me answer the questions that you have. Let me listen to your feedback. Right? And, you know, when we think about a lot of the folks that listen to this podcast, you know, they're leading field service teams. And those people, they I would say almost all of them are digitally connected. But, again, even so, if that's the only communication they're getting, it is very impersonal. Right? And the other thing to consider is that in different situations, those people may never come to an office. They may come to an office infrequently. They may just start and end their days from home. Right? Or they might be on the road a lot. And so, there are people that you know, they might not be disconnected from a digital perspective. But if we're not careful, they can become disconnected from the company culture and from…

[00:20:02] Jason:  100%.

[00:20:04] Sarah:  The idea of staying engaged and being involved. Right? I was at an event in in our industry, Field Service Europe last fall, and I attended a great panel discussion with three different leaders. So, three different industries, three different regions, all talking about the absolute criticality of, as a leader, investing time in one on ones. And as much as possible, making an effort to see your people at in person at some not for every one on one, you know, but at some regular interval. I've also had another leader on here who talked about, his name is Venkata, he's with a company called Bruker Nano, and he will say that it is an expense to the business, but he invests every year in bringing their field teams together

[00:21:05] Jason:  That's right.

[00:21:05] Sarah:  For the sole purpose of just spending time with one another. Because it's so important in building that sense of community and making them feel part of a team that it pays dividends in their engagement and things like that. So, I think that reminder is really important. And, you know, going back to what you said at the beginning about, like, all of the different things that sort of shifted during the pandemic, we know that people want to feel part of something. And them getting an alert on their employee app or getting an email once a month is not enough to make that happen.

[00:21:52] Jason:  Absolutely not. You know?

[00:21:53] Sarah:  We have to figure out how to do those high touch bits. Yeah.

[00:22:02] Jason:  Yeah. And you use the right word too, like, invest. It's an investment. Like, it costs money to build a culture, to build relationships with people. That is an expense. It definitely is, but it's more of an investment than it is an expenditure.

[00:22:16] Sarah:  Yeah.

[00:22:17] Jason:  And it, you know, it pays dividends that everybody has a very hard time measuring. But where it shows up in is in all the other KPIs that the organization is measuring. It shows up in quality. It shows up in safety. It shows up in on time delivery. It shows up in customer experience. It shows up in all the things that matter for the organization. And so, any time spent, you know, investing in better relationships to make those things better are quantifiable, and they do show up, and they show up where they matter the most, which is on those dashboards, which are attached to the bottom line. Yeah. And I think the other point you brought up, especially for field service, I'm sure there's a lot of you who are listening who truly have field service people who are on-site at customers and client organizations and things. And there's a lot of surveys that show that the more time that they spend on customer sites, the more they begin to identify with that culture.

[00:23:13] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:23:14] Jason:  That culture, you know? And so, a, that shows you it is possible, and b, it is also imperative that you do as much as you can so that they continue to identify with your culture. Because if you've got that if it's defined and it's great and it's strong, that's an opportunity for them to be a brand ambassador for your company at the client's culture. And then it also sort of lowers the chance that you might accidentally lose them to the client because now I feel like I have a stronger bond with these people than I do for the ones who are paying me. You know?

[00:23:50] Sarah: It's interesting you say that, Jason. So, I want to also bring up another example. I did a podcast last year sometime with a gentleman, Marco Hugo Gutierrez, who works for Tetra Pak and he leads services in in Europe. And Tetra Pak underwent this big initiative to really kind of understand the sentiment of their field teams. They really wanted to understand, you know, how engaged are these people, what makes them feel engaged, what doesn't, etcetera. And one of the biggest findings for them to action from that research was that they found their technicians felt closer to their customers than they did Tetra Pak. They felt more a part of that culture than they did Tetra Pak. And Marco said, of course, that's great. We want them to love our customers. We want them to, you know, build those relationships. But Sure. We also have to have that with them. You know? It's so important for us to invest in making them feel that they are part of our culture that you know. And they can share that, but not that they're not getting that from us. And so it's interesting that you bring that up, and that is a huge risk for field teams. And that can manifest in a lot of different ways. Obviously, one is, you know, losing those employees to a customer potentially. But even just, you know, how much opportunity cost there is in not empowering those employees to, like you said, kind of be that brand ambassador in a stronger way. Right?

[00:25:43] Jason:  Because that that strengthens the customer relationship. They're hiring you for a whole lot of reasons, and it's that delivery that really is the cherry on top. And then over time, that becomes why they're hiring you. You're yes. You're doing all the things that are on the SOW, but it's that chemistry.

[00:26:02] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:26:02] Jason:  And how that gets delivered, that becomes the very definition of the company's brand. Yeah. And so, you want that to be as strong as it can possibly be and you want those people to, you know, love their customers, but not so much that they become one. You know?

[00:26:17] Sarah: I want to go back - you know, we were talking about sort of the investment of this high touch approach, whatever that looks like. I know leaders that they define certain time. They go on the road, they visit all of their teams. They make sure they see them in person. I talked about Venkata who brings everyone to a central location to spend time together, whatever that looks like. So those are examples that they are relatively time consuming, they are relatively expensive, and I'm not saying that those investments of time and money do not pay off; I believe they do. However, I also wanted to make the point that sometimes very simple things can also have a tremendous impact. Right? You know, just thinking about, okay. Well, maybe doing an off-site every year is not feasible for me as a leader in the organization I'm in. But I could set aside a half an hour every week to call, you know, ten of eight of my technicians and thank them for something very specific they've done that week. I could commit to writing five handwritten thank you notes every week. I could you know, these different things. It sometimes, we overlook those simple things because we're focused on, should we be doing the big things? And if we can't, are we kind of, you know, just out of luck? Right? The Tetra Pak findings, you know, the satisfaction in those relationships came from this feeling the technician had of being able to go there and solve a problem and be appreciated by the customer for doing that. And so, there are a lot of different ways we can show appreciation and recognition that are on a whole continuum of however much continua of however much time and money you have to invest. So, I wanted to point that out as well that it doesn't have to be a grand thing every time. The little things make a huge impact.

[00:28:23] Jason:  In fact, I think from my perspective and based on conversations I've had with literally thousands of employees, it the little things matter even more. Like, the bigger it is, the more it feels like a corporate initiative that's been budgeted and, you know, it just has a different feel to not that people don't appreciate it, but they see it for what it is. Versus, like, what you just described, a handwritten note or, you know, I'm going to set aside thirty minutes, you know, every week or every day or whatever the right timing is for your schedule to have a conversation with my team that isn't about what you're doing, it's about how you're doing.

[00:28:59] Sarah:  Yep.

[00:28:59] Jason: And then that that those are the types of things that that build stronger bonds because at the end of the day, all this stuff we're talking about is a trust exercise. Mhmm. And so, your culture, your results, you know, everything that you measure there from a workplace perspective, all of that is built around trust. And even the little things you do are deposit into that trust bank account with your team.

[00:29:24] Sarah:  Yeah.

[00:29:25] Jason:  And they add up over time. And lord knows, at some point, somebody's going to write a check against that account, and you don't want it to bounce. So, the more of those deposits you can keep putting in there, even the little stuff, you know, it matters. It matters, especially to your employees.

[00:29:40] Sarah:  Another really good, specific example someone shared is, they're in an executive leadership role, and it's just so happens that, you know, in in that role, they're always getting company merch. So, zip ups, hats, polos, chargers, whatever, all this different stuff. And he said, like, I have so much of it already. I can't even use it all. So rather than letting it pile up in the corner of my office, I just send it out to my employees with a note. I just pass it along to them. And I thought, like, that's it's such an easy little thing.

[00:30:18] Jason:  That's right.

[00:30:19] Sarah: But it's again, a really actionable example of something that doesn't take a lot. You know? Another person pointed out, they like to do a gift card for the person to take their family to dinner because, you know, they said, like, often it's nice to share that with the person's family, that they're appreciated and things like that. So, there are so many ways to do it.

[00:30:46] Jason: There really are. Like, I'm reaching over right now on my desk and, like, look at this. This is just a stack of nice notes that I have received, and people are like, oh, gosh. You got all those in the last two weeks? Nope. Some of these are 15 years old.

[00:30:59] Sarah:  Yeah.

[00:30:59] Jason:  I have moved these from job to job to desk to desk, and now they're on this desk. And every now and then, I just like to go through there and read what people had to say and remember that I made a difference. And so, if you think that that stuff doesn't matter, go think about your own little special box that you have or your special folder. It is full of stuff like that. Those aren't $5,000,000 corporate initiatives. Those are ten minutes that somebody took and wrote a personalized note to you that made, you know, a world of difference to you.

[00:31:28] Sarah:  Yeah. Absolutely. Now and I want to come back to sort of this point we've been talking about is when we when we do this well, you know, we create that trust. We create these relationships that are very impactful. You talk about the fact that often there are these companies' internal influencers that remain a very untapped resource. And you refer to them as the ones everyone goes to for the meeting after the meeting, which is a really good point.

[00:32:05] Jason:  Yep.

[00:32:05] Sarah:  So how can leaders do a better job of identifying who those internal influencers are and finding ways to, you know, create alliances with them or, you know, better working relationships so that they're leveraging that resource in a helpful, positive, natural way?

[00:32:31] Jason:  Absolutely. And the best way to find this out and, you know, there's formal ways and informal ways. You don't have to spend any money to find it out. The best way to find it out is to ask your own employees who they go to for the meeting after the meeting. You know? Not in a threatening way or any other kind of way, which is like, you know, I tell you all stuff and then y'all go and talk about it. Who do you talk to? They'll tell you; you know. And for some leaders, there's a little bit of jealousy in there and it can feel also a little bit threatening if they're going to, you know, somebody else on your team and you think, oh my gosh, that person is going to end up taking my job. But no. That's not how it is. The they employees identify a relationship with a leader or manager as different from a relationship with an influencer. Once not better or worse, they're different. I come to my leader manager for certain kinds of things. I go to my influencer for other kinds of things. I need both just like in our personal lives. Different kind of relationships with different kind of people. And so it's important to understand who those people are because they're influencers, and they can influence things in a good way, and they can also influence things in a not so good way. Usually, it's in a good way because the research that I've looked at is that most of these people, HR might call them, you know, high potential folks, but they're not necessarily on the high potential list because HR doesn't know who they are. But they I would call them high potentials because they are super engaged just by default. They were just wired that way. It's hard to create these kinds of folks like but they just come fully loaded already like that. And so, they read all the stuff. They listen to all the stuff. They distill it. They think about it. You know, work is them and their work, and it and that's just a fountain of knowledge for all these people that they're influencing. And the important part about that is that in most organizations of any size and in any industry, about 12% of the workforce is what we would consider to be leaders, and they can only directly influence 50% of the rest of the employees. 50%. As opposed to these influencers who are typically 3% of the workforce, and they can directly influence 90%. So that tells me one important thing. Whoever it is out there that's relying on cascades, stop doing that. Because the leaders from the CEO all the way down to the frontline supervisor can't reach as many people as the influencers can. So, once we know who these influencers are, we can rely on them to help, quote, cascade this stuff. Because they're more trusted. They're more believable. They're going to, you know, use weekend words to describe things, and sometimes, you know, others use weekday words to describe things. And it's just it's going to put a turbo on the things that you're doing. The other reason why it's important is that if one of those influencer leaves on their own or asked to, whoever they're influencing is 90% more likely to also leave and almost immediately with the thinking being, well, gosh, Sarah knows everything. And if she's not here anymore, why on earth would I stay? Right? And so, it's just important to know who they are. It also depends on your culture. If you have the kind of culture where that might create, you know, some friction or whatever, then just know it and treat them with kid gloves. They're already influencing. Now you just know that they are. And you could just leave it like it is. In other cultures, you can celebrate them. They're now champions or change or catalyst people or, you know, you want to put a group together and call them something. In some cultures, that's fine. But in others, you know, for sure, the fight club is not talk about fight club, and that might apply for your culture as well. But either way, now we know who they are. We are and that they're influencing, and what can we do to make sure that they stay as plugged in as possible without it becoming like a second job for them? Because, truthfully, they're already doing it. They're already influencing. So, you don't need to do anything else, really, to make them super influencers. They're already as influential as they're going to be. And the more you make them that, I think the less trustworthy they are because then it starts to feel like they're a corporate mouthpiece.

[00:36:58] Sarah:  Right.

[00:36:58] Jason:  And they're not. They don't want that to be that.

[00:37:01] Sarah:  Yeah. I think that's important. I was thinking about how to articulate this thought while you were saying that. I mean, I think it like you said, it's important for it to be organic. I think it's also important to not allow it to become a situation where you're, like, paying them off. And I don't mean that in reality. Like,

[00:37:20] Jason:  we're not out of the way.

[00:37:21] Sarah:  Saying, like, it can't be manipulative. Right? Like, it can't be, like, they're being they can be leveraged where it makes sense for a mutually beneficial purpose, but they can't be used in a way that is manipulative either to them or the employees that they're influencing. Right?

[00:37:42] Jason:  Right.

[00:37:42] Sarah: But you see this sometimes in, you know, our realm, and you reference this with you know, if you have a change coming along and you know that there are some influencers in, you know, your structure, you can work with them proactively to say, Hey, I'd like to involve you in this upfront. I'd like to get your feedback on it. And I would like to, you know, have you help us find the right ways to communicate this change to the teams because you're plugged into them. You know what will resonate, what won't, etcetera. And that's a very wise and appropriate use of

[00:38:24] Jason:  Totally natural and organic. You would do that. Even if you didn't know, you know, you would that's something you wouldn't naturally normally do. So that makes total sense. It's very organic. It feels organic. Yeah.

[00:38:35] Sarah:  You mentioned in your content that leaders have a natural tendency to under lead. So, what does that mean?

[00:38:46] Jason:  It's such a strange concept to me. And if I can ever figure this out, this will be the book that I that I write or have AI write for me. The idea is, like, just whoever's listening, just, like, think of your first job. Alright? Whatever that was. It doesn't even matter. Flipping burgers or McDonald's. I don't care. Whatever the first job was, you were there and then there were, like, 15 layers of leaders above you all the way up to the CEO. And so, you're just doing your thing, and you're observing decisions and personalities and, you know, things that happen in the organization. And at some point, because we all do this, you know what? If I ever get to be up there, I'm not going to do things like that. I'm going to do things my way. And then lo and behold, after fifteen or twenty years, those people are up there, and they continue to do the same thing. So, at the so my question is then at what point in your career do you lose touch with reality? Because it happens, and it happens quite a lot. Not for everybody, but for a lot of people. And when it happens, that's when it feels like these folks are underleading. And I which means they're not informing. They're not involving. They're not inspiring. They're not, you know, being more high touch than high-tech. And it's a mystery to me because they all used to be people on their teams. Age wise, role wise, whatever. They all everybody used to be those people. And when they were those people, they wanted those things. And now that they are the people who can give those things, they're not.

[00:40:27] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:40:28] Jason:  And that feels like for at least in a lot of those areas, a conscious decision. And so, however you felt when you weren't getting what you needed early in your career, that's how your team now feels. So, if you want to sort of get over this underleading concept, then the easiest thing to me is to remember what it was like when you were them.

[00:40:52] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:40:53] Jason:  Remember what it was like when you were them. Like, you're getting so much of this corporate swag and you're just throwing it in a closet somewhere because, you know, I don't need yet another pullover. Some of the people out there have never been given a pullover anywhere they worked, you know. And you were like that too when you first started out. Imagine how much that would mean to you. Do those type just put yourself. It's that EQ. It's that empathy. It's that, you know. I understand other people, and so what can you do to constantly think about how it used to be for you when you were them so that you can be what you wanted your own boss to be back then? You know?

[00:41:32] Sarah:  Yeah. What you're saying just made me think of an experience I had last year. I went to visit a leader who is very well respected in our space, James Mylett. He works currently for Schneider Electric and is in Texas. I had never been to their offices and so I got there and checked in, and he, you know, met me in the lobby. And we stopped and grabbed a coffee, and he said, should we sit over here in this little area and I said, sure. You know, we sat down. We had a bit of a chat, and then he was going to give me a tour. And we're walking around, and I said, well, where is your office? And he said, I don't have one. And I'm like, what do you mean? And he's like, I don't like to sit in an office because I feel like that disconnects me from people. Like, I would rather just, depending on what I'm working on, I'll either sit in a conference room for a bit or I'll sit out in an open working space, but I it just helps me stay more connected to the culture and what's going on. And I thought

[00:42:41] Jason:  Yeah.

[00:42:41] Sarah:  So, you're an SVP at a massive company, and a lot of people I would say most people in that role have a corner office. You know, that they might even only work in one day a week, one day a month sometimes. Right?

[00:42:58] Jason:  Yeah.

[00:42:58] Sarah:  Not him. Just doesn't have one at all. Yeah. And I'm like, that's

[00:43:02] Jason:  That's amazing.

[00:43:02] Sarah:  But it it's a really good example of one part of what you're saying, which is, I think, like, keep grounded in, you know, the humanity of it all. Right? I think the other thing that happens that it's more on, like, the company culture, the corporate culture part is I think people are put in really unfortunate situations. You know? A lot of times they end up having to, for lack of a better term, sell out to take those roles. You know? So, you have this passion when you're among the

[00:43:40] Jason: Sure.

[00:43:41] Sarah:  team that, I would never do that. You know? And then you start making tradeoffs that lend themselves to that. And I think it's tough because you can criticize that. You know? But it happens in a way that it's really hard to pick apart. But I do think I do think that there is a shift in company culture because I think that this whole employee experience topic is becoming so important

[00:44:11] Jason:  Mhmm.

[00:44:12] Sarah:  At such a scale that companies are really grappling with, you know, some of those historical practices and dynamics and really having to dig in and change. And I think as that shift continues, it puts those leaders in a better position to challenge the status quo. But the reality historically is

[00:44:37] Jason:  Mhmm.

[00:44:38] Sarah:  The people that really challenge the status quo, even appropriately and where it rightfully should be challenged, aren't the people giving the senior leadership roles because they want a team of yes men that will, you know, take those orders. So, there is a part of that dynamic that comes into play. So, I'm just saying that because I think sometimes leaders get put in positions where they do remember what it's like. And there's a certain part of that they can control within how they treat people, the little things they could do, etcetera.

[00:45:18] Jason:  Sure.

[00:45:19] Sarah:  If they're working against a pressure that is really at odds with the change they would like to see, I'm excited because I think there is a growing groundswell, if you will, of people who will push back and positive things that will come from that. And not only that, but companies that are recognizing those dynamics aren't working anymore anyway. Right? So, let's change it from the top as well. You see both. Right? So, I think that's a good thing, but it's a very interesting point to bring up.

[00:45:51] Jason:  Well, it takes a ton of courage. And, you know, on that example that you gave about, you know, some leader who's trying to kind of push those boundaries and then, you know, ends up, you know, getting kicked to the curb. They end up becoming the startup CEO that's very disruptive and is doing thing different, and they're the ones speaking at TEDx. So, they're the ones that are on the cover of all the magazines.

[00:46:11] Sarah:  And they're helping this groundswell too. Do you know what I mean? Because it's people that, you know, fundamentally don't believe any longer that profit comes at the expense of people. Right? Like, that we can do both. We can treat people well, and we can have a good working culture, and we can make a lot of money. They're not

[00:46:33] Jason:  There's a lot of data that shows that. Yeah. There's a ton of data that shows that. You know? Some of the most profitable companies are the ones that are spending the most in these areas, which

[00:46:42] Sarah:  Yeah.

[00:46:42] Jason:  Doesn't sound, you know, like that math would add up that way. But there I mean, there's company after company that, you know, that we can use in as examples like that. And then I think the other thing too is that transition if there's if you're trying to think that way for your organization, to me, the easiest way that I use to kind of explain that to my own clients is this is something you are already doing, and it's called customer experience.

[00:47:09] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:47:10] Jason:  And so, in most organizations, you know, marketing owns a relationship and sales on the transaction, and the two of them, you know, are ultimately responsible for customer experience. So, what does employ experience look like? Typically, HR and IT kind of own the transactions for employees, but who owns the relationship?

[00:47:32] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:47:33] Jason:  That's an opportunity for the all the leaders. Leaders and managers have to own that relationship. And then when they're like, well, I'm not quite sure how we would go about doing that. Well, just look at everything that you've done to drive better customer experience and all those initiatives And just substitute the word employee for customer, and that just gives you an easy way to start thinking about it that's less risky because the organization inherently understands the customer experience side of things that people have been doing for twenty plus years now. We're just going to take that same thing and apply it under here, and that feels less risky and less scary.

[00:48:12] Sarah:  Mhmm. Yeah. Very interesting stuff, Jason. I appreciate you coming on and sharing. If you would like to connect with Jason, easiest place is LinkedIn?

[00:48:26] Jason:  Absolutely. I'm on LinkedIn. My website is JasonAnthoine.com. And on both of those places, you can find my own podcast, which is called Riding Shotgun. And the whole idea behind that is I've been riding shotgun with leaders, you know, my whole career. Come ride shotgun gun with me on each episode and learn some things that I've learned from doing that. No more than five or six minutes, you're in, you're out, you're on with your day.

[00:48:52] Sarah:  I love it. Awesome. Alright, everyone. Check it out. Thank you, Jason. Appreciate it.

[00:48:57] Jason:  Thank you, Sarah. I really appreciate it.

[00:48:59] Sarah:  You can find more by visiting the home of the UNSCRIPTED podcast at futureoffieldservice.com. The podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thank you for listening!

March 6, 2025 | 17 Mins Read

IWD 2025: The Future of Field Service Community Weighs In

March 6, 2025 | 17 Mins Read

IWD 2025: The Future of Field Service Community Weighs In

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Episode 306

In this episode of the Unscripted podcast, host Sarah Nicastro shares what’s on the hearts and minds of the Future of Field Service community when it comes to International Women’s Day 2025 and its theme to #AccelerateAction.

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Watch the episode here:

Episode Transcript:

Sarah Nicastro (00:04):

Welcome to the UNSCRIPTED podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today's episode is the International Women's Day 2025 episode, and I'm going to be sharing with you contributions from the Future of Field Service community. International Women's Day this year is on March 8th, and according to the website, International Women's Day has been around for over a hundred years, as have many of the issues still impacting women's advancement since 1911. International Women's Day belongs to all who care about women's equality.” Each year, international Women's Day sets a theme for the year, and this year's theme is #AccelerateAction. So as I thought about how best to cover International Women's Day this year, there was a lot on my mind, certainly creating content around the topic wasn't in question, it was just a matter of how best to do. So I became very curious what is on the hearts and minds of the community.

(01:23):

There is a lot going on in the world right now, and it made me really ponder a bit more what everyone's thinking and feeling versus in the past years, sometimes we've just featured a specific woman's story. Other times we've done different topical things. This year just feels a bit different, and so I was really curious how the community might be feeling. So I posed the question on LinkedIn and had some great response, some people that were more than willing to share their opinions and feelings about some different prompts that I asked them to comment on, as well as welcoming them to share anything and everything that is on their mind. So I'm going to share some of those thoughts with you, along with some of my own, in today's podcast. I did edit a bit because I didn't want this episode to be too, too long, but I plan to release sort of an extended article on this topic, including everyone's full input around the date as well.

(02:50):

So keep an eye out for that. But for now, let's get started. I tried to categorize this input into some different themes that we're going to talk through together, and the first is that while we have come a long way, it's indisputable that there's still so far to go and biases stand in the way of making the progress that we need. So Catherine Coulter Wood, who is the Senior Manager for Service Optimization and Transformation at Compugen weighed in on this point. She said, “gender equality in the workplace has really come a long way, but women still face real challenges in STEM, particularly I see a lot of capability bias. The results of this bias are hiring disparities, leadership inequality and more. But the why is that there is an unconscious hiring of men over women or of promoting men over women to leadership roles.

(03:53):

At its core, there is a capability bias. There are many historical and societal reasons which have created this unconscious and sometimes very conscious belief that men are more intelligent or capable than women, particularly in areas of stem. Multiple studies and ample testimonies of people's lived experiences show that when there are two candidates with the same qualifications, credentials and experience, the man is generally viewed as more capable. This is an area where we can accelerate action.” Catherine suggests determining a way to make capability bias more visible so that we can critically analyze how to change it and measure progress. So when we think about biases and how we start accelerating action to identifying those and overcoming them, representation and visibility become very important. We need to see examples of that capability bias being proved false. Chantelle King, who is Managing Partner at Woola says, “we need to accelerate action in industries that have historically been male dominated, especially in trades operations and leadership roles.

(05:14):

Representation matters and we need to actively encourage and support more women in these spaces through mentorship, sponsorship, and leadership development programs.” Alyce Peterson, who is the Product Marketing Manager at ServicePro by MSI data says she's heard from many women, other women in the service space at industry events across the country that agree fully that women need more visibility. And this is impossible to dispute if you simply attend one of these events like I have for the last many, many years. Again, going back to the earlier point that Catherine made, there has been progress, but there is still a long way to go. I remember at one of my first field service events, I was one of two or three women out of a couple of hundred at the entire event, and that ratio has certainly grown, but it is nowhere near equal.

(06:24):

Alyce says, “we need more women in leadership and for others to help pass the torch. There are so many ways to get women not only a seat at the table, but also to become deeply integrated leaders into their organizations.” When it comes to how we get there, allyship is critical and came up quite a bit in people's responses. Carolyn Haggstrom Markland, who is the Managing Director and Vice President for Customer Services in the Nordics at Vattenfall points out that with intent, allyship doesn't have to be hard. She says, “for me, from a personal point of view, what's been most impactful in terms of support has been allyship, and I try to pay that forward as often as I can. It's not hard. Just be mindful of sharing your space and putting people forward within your networks.” Jayda Nance, who is the Delivery Project Executive Leader for AI Development and Innovation for Client Experience at IBM shares an important reminder that there is no allyship without action.

(07:39):

She says, “allyship is more than acknowledgement. It's action. It's men stepping into women's worlds, not as saviors, but as advocates. Too often society assigns women the easy tasks mistaking consideration for fragility, but we don't want saving. We want opportunity, a voice, a seat at the table with a steak. I've been fortunate to work with men who have spoken my name in rooms I wasn't in advocated for me when it mattered and celebrated my accomplishments publicly. The hard truth. Sometimes things happen simply because a man said so that's the reality. And while we work toward a future where all voices carry equal weight, we must also recognize the opportunity within this dynamic. Behind many accomplished men are women who played a pivotal role in their success. So lift us up with you when you rise, bring us along. That is allyship, that is impact.” Chantel of Woola echoes that allyship, especially from men is impactful saying, “having male allies who actively space for women in discussions advocate for their advancement and push back against biases has been incredibly impactful.

(09:04):

Leadership needs to be intentional about fostering inclusion.” KM Manickam, who is a Customer Support Manager at BD said he's focused on doing just that. He said, “One impactful way I've supported a woman at work was by advocating for her during performance reviews and promotion discussions by highlighting her achievements and contributions, I helped ensure she received the recognition and opportunities she deserved.” When you think about what he's saying, this person he's referring to, these were her achievements, they were her contributions, the recognition was deserved. But the reality is sometimes despite all of that, it still won't happen if allies aren't taking the initiative to be conscious of looking for the people around them that are in marginalized groups that need that allyship and making it a priority to essentially just share the realities of the hard work that they're doing. Another incredibly important mechanism for change is the many ways that women are supporting women.

(10:22):

This is near and dear to my heart and it came up in many of the responses which I absolutely loved. So the first example of that is from Danielle Waterworth, who is the Vice President for North America AG Dealer and Customer Support and the Global Vice President for Parts and Service AG Maintenance and Services Development at CNH. These long titles are incredibly challenging, but I think I'm doing okay. Danielle says, “while I have learned and enjoyed working for all of my prior leaders, I have found the relationship with my first female executive to be different in that she sees things in a different lens. Our relationship has grown to be open and reciprocal where we do not bullshit one another. We are transparent when we are disappointed in the other's opinion or work and we are open with one another when it comes to growth and leadership.

(11:19):

Also, when I have a problem, it is her problem too. Having a leader that you trust to be truthful and that has your back is something all should have. But especially women helping another woman as they know how to balance the various aspects or jobs that our life entails from employee to wife, to mother to friend and volunteer, but do not question how or if you will be successful still in accomplishing what they expect of you.” So they know the juggling act and know that regardless of what might come up, your ability to be successful and accomplish what you need to is not in question. And I can understand how much comfort there is in that. To have a relationship with someone who understands what you are trying to balance and has confidence in you, that no matter what all of that is, no matter what hurdles might come up, you have what it takes to get the job done.

(12:27):

Erica Marois, who is the Senior Manager for Content and Community at Informa says, “I was fortunate to have many other women take me under their wing in my twenties and gently nudge me out of my comfort zone while also championing my work. I didn't realize it at the time, but they were planting the seeds of confidence I needed to grow both personally and professionally. Society loves to pit women against each other, but when we take it upon ourselves to offer support, kindness and understanding to others, those small acts can make a huge difference. Give other women a seat at the table by speaking positively about their work and contributions even when they are not in the room. It's such an easy way to pay it forward.” This is such an important point because this really comes back to this idea of a scarcity mentality or a mentality of abundance, right?

(13:22):

And this concept that if we as women lift other women up, are we risking what we could be achieving? And it's such foolish thinking and really holds us back from our own true and full value because we're all on this earth to help other people. And hearing these examples of women supporting other women just shows you how much more impact you can have when you expand your lens beyond your own struggle, your own challenges, your own journey and look around you for other women to lift up. There's what's the saying, this isn't pie. There's a piece for everyone. And so looking for those opportunities to speak positively about your coworkers, to showcase their accomplishments, to offer your support or your mentorship or sponsorship, these are all actions of allyship and they can be done by men for women. They can also be done by women for other women, and they should be.

(14:42):

And it's really great to see that they are. So I loved hearing that while allyship and the one-to-one mentor examples are incredibly powerful, the respondents also pointed out how much value there is to be found in community. Dot Mynahan, who is the Senior Director for Safety and Workforce Development at National Elevator Industry, Inc. stresses the role of employee resource groups as one important form of community. She says, “I think there's a need to accelerate action around employee resource groups. There's a great guidance document assembled by 16 state AGs called Multi-State Guidance concerning diversity, equity, inclusion and accessibility employment initiatives that stresses the important of employee resource groups providing an inclusive and supportive space where employees of particular backgrounds or common experiences feel value and heard According to the document, ‘When employees feel that their identity is recognized and supported within the organization, they're more likely to stay long-term.’ Dot has been on the podcast before when she was with Otis Elevator and she was responsible for starting Otis’s Women's Employee Resource Group, I believe called Forward and it has had an incredible impact on the organization.

(16:11):

So I understand why she's passionate about bringing up the value of these groups, and I've also seen many other examples of how these employee resource groups can have a great impact. And also to point out, I think with hers and others, it's not only a space for women to come and be in community, it is also a space for allies to come and to understand what the challenges and opportunities are to better understand how they can support the women that are in these groups. So very good point. From Dot. Alyce from ServicePro touches on the good that can come from making time for in-person engagements. She says, “onsite networking events, workshops and discussions are not just nice-to-haves. They're crucial for women to have the space to be heard and connect in such large rooms. Some of these women invite you to be mentored, be on boards, attend other events, speak in other ways.

(17:13):

The networking is invaluable.” I think this is another very good point that sometimes it can be very helpful to step out of your own bubble, whether that is connecting with more folks on LinkedIn, whether that is attending an industry event or a women women-focused event. There are some of those as well. Getting out there and getting the perspective of other people who are in similar and different circumstances can be very helpful. And again, that's where a lot of these connections can be made that gives women the opportunity to support other women and allies, the opportunity to support women as well. So these points have all been very helpful to illustrate some of the ways that we could think about accelerating action, which is the theme for this year. But there is a lot in question up for debate and at stake at the moment, particularly in the United States with a YouTube video recently published by the White House claiming ‘DEI is Dead Under the Trump Administration.’

(18:29):

It is concerning to say the least, what could happen to the pace of progress we've made not only with women's equality but diversity and inclusion of all kinds. This is a touchy subject of course, but it is something that I could not create this podcast without bringing up because in the conversations I have on a day-to-day basis with service leaders in different parts of the world, I have been asked certainly weekly if not more frequently since the change in leadership about what all has been going on. And there is a lot of impact not only in the United States but in other places coming from some of the decisions that are being made and some of the debate and hesitancy and changes in policy that it is triggering around DEI. So it wasn't something that I could not bring up. You can also understand though it is a topic where some of the respondents preferred to remain anonymous.

(19:48):

One saying, “Of late, I have been so frustrated by the fact that DEI initiatives have been undermined even before the current administration by what is perceived as having swung over to the other extreme where they see women being appointed for more leadership roles over men in a given organization, for example, and thereby the constant assumption that she got hired because she is a woman. I do understand that in a micro situation, one may perceive that as being unfair, but I also believe that if we don't change things today, then we will never get to the point of equity. We have suffered through decades of being undermined at the workplace due to stereotypical expectations from women. And the action to change needs to come. Now it's not just good and fair for women, but also better to prepare humankind for a future where all segments of society are represented and in fact utilized optimally.”

(20:51):

Another person weighed in saying, “I'm very worried about how this administration's policies will undo so much of the progress we've made in recent years. Their stance on DEI is alarming and the sweeping RTO mandates are impacting so many of the women that I know. Covid was a tipping point for the family structure in the US and for the first time we started to see moms and dads share the load more evenly. It feels like all of that is in jeopardy now and women are left to figure out how to make it all work. I expect that we'll see a lot of women pushed out of work in the years ahead, which is deeply sad to me.” Caroline of Vattenfall, who did not request to be named anonymously, is based in Stockholm, I believe, says she's getting a lot of questions from her organization about the developments in the United States.

(21:44):

And her thoughts are, “I get questions from my organization about the developments in the US when it comes to DEI at large and what it means for us. And if this means we're going to change something in the way we do things here, and the clear answer is no, nothing will change other than that, we will prioritize our DEI agenda even higher. We do this because we truly believe in it. Equal rights and opportunities are a core belief and not something will change just because the wind blows in another direction.” So while what is currently happening is unsettling to say the least, when it comes to the topic of today's podcast, accelerating action around women, Carolyn's stance must be the stance. Organizations that have committed to DEI because they genuinely and firmly believe in the value of a diverse, inclusive, and fairly treated workforce must continue to take steps to create just that in all the ways. We're speaking today about women because this is an International Women's Day podcast, but that statement is across the board.

(23:05):

So I like her perspective. I think that there's always this element of accepting what you can't control, making change and having impact where you can. And I think that each and every company has an opportunity to continue to take the appropriate actions and to accelerate action in whatever ways they can and should in their respective businesses, regardless of what is going on in news headlines or with YouTube videos. So my hope is that many, many people will do just that. And finally, while we navigate what this next phase of accelerating action may look like, those who weighed in also shared reminders of the need for women to believe in themselves, advocate for themselves, and look out for themselves. Jennifer Dye, who is the Director of Power Services, West Region at Schneider Electric says, “I have taken many roles in my career in which I was the first or the only in the room, sometimes simultaneously, some with extreme levels of support from others and some where I knew the ones who wished they'd been chosen for my seat and they had struggles understanding why I was the chosen one.

(24:33):

The latter are who I spent a long time trying to justify my successes to until I reached a point in my career 9and within an incredibly inclusive culture of leaders and company mission) that I finally realized I'm in the room because I deserve to be. I owe nobody my proof of entry and the only one who is allowed to question my worth is me. And, I'm very familiar with imposter syndrome in excess. Once I realized this for myself, it's been a mission of mine to challenge others with this same mentality, inclusive and constantly curious. I think strong cultures, teams, companies, et cetera, have succeeded when they encourage challenging the norm as a form of endearment and crucial to future success, not a limiter to an outcome.” I love this point and I love Jennifer's conviction around doing the work to recognize and own her value.

(25:37):

The most important point to me in what she shares here is that that firm belief in your worth and your right to be in whatever room you're in, in whatever seat you're in, in whatever role you have earned, can exist simultaneously with imposter syndrome and self-doubt, and often does. So those two things can be in parallel, but I would love for more women to get to the point Jennifer has where she keeps them in parallel. Like she says, that I owe nobody my proof of entry and the only one who is allowed to question my worth is me. I absolutely love that. Erica of Informa talks about the importance of setting boundaries. She says, “I used to think I needed to put in more hours and always be available to prove my worth. With age, perspective, and out of necessity as a mom, I've learned that setting boundaries isn't only an act of self-care, but an act that commands respect.

(26:43):

Saying no to the things that don't drive value and protecting my calendar allows me to work more effectively and deliver better results. A mentor once said to me, if you don't set your boundaries, someone else will set them for you. And that's so true.” Chantel of Woola says, “one of the most beneficial actions I've taken as a woman in service and at work is advocating for myself. This includes confidently taking on leadership opportunities, ensuring my contributions are recognized, and making my voice heard in meetings and decision-making processes. I've learned that speaking up even when it feels uncomfortable is crucial for growth and visibility.” I think these are great reminders that there is, again, there are always elements of this equation that we can control and these reminders of working on your own vision of your self-worth, working on your belief in yourself, working on your courage to speak up and speak out, working on your awareness of lifting other women up.

(27:52):

These are all things that as women we can do to help accelerate action. My hope, obviously is that other people will listen and take actions beyond that. So from an ally perspective, from an organizational perspective, making sure that just because DEI is “dead” (in quotes), the efforts around it don't need to be diminished. And more importantly, most importantly, the value of it is still just as valid. So that is what I had to share with you all today for our International Women's Day 2025 podcast. And I will, like I said, put together a piece to run on the website that has everyone's contributions in full because it was very hard for me to decide what to take out for the sake of brevity, but I will do that and share that as well. I appreciate everyone so much that took the time to share their thoughts anonymously and by name. This was very interesting for me to take a pulse of the perspective on this topic of our community. And I know you are all very busy women (and one man!), so I really appreciate you taking the time to weigh in and share. And, also, thank you for listening! You can find more at the home of the UNSCRIPTED podcast by visiting us at futureoffieldservice.com. The podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. And as always, thank you for listening.

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February 26, 2025 | 29 Mins Read

Breaking the Cycle of Toxic Leadership

February 26, 2025 | 29 Mins Read

Breaking the Cycle of Toxic Leadership

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Episode 305

In this episode of the Unscripted podcast, host Sarah Nicastro welcomes Rob Kalwarowsky, an executive coach, author, and TEDx speaker, to discuss breaking the cycle of toxic leadership. Together, they:

  • Define six distinct types of destructive leadership, including arrogant/violent, abusive narcissist, ghost manager, messy boss, passive-aggressive, and passive egocentric
  • Discuss how modern leadership needs are evolving, particularly with younger generations demanding more empathetic and inclusive management styles
  • Examine the importance of self-leadership and mindset work in becoming a better leader
  • Highlight the significant gap in leadership training, with 85% of promoted managers receiving no formal training

The conversation emphasizes that while toxic leadership remains prevalent, there are proven paths to creating healthier workplace environments that benefit both employees and organizational performance. Rob shares practical insights for leaders looking to improve their management style and break free from destructive patterns.

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Also, subscribe to our newsletter right here.

Watch the episode here:

Episode Transcript:

[00:00:00] Rob:  I'm not super happy with my job. I saw some of the bullying and the toxicity, and then I've also, you know, worked in and also been a part of, like, hey. You're another consultant. We hired one last week. It was the flavor of the month. Nothing's ever gonna change. And these are the things I saw for ten years, and I started learning well, actually, there's a better way. 

[00:01:05] Sarah:  Hello. Welcome to the Unscripted podcast where you'll find discussions on what matters most in service, leadership, and business transformation. I'm your host, Sara Nicastro. Let's jump in. Welcome to the Unscripted podcast. I'm your host, Sara Nicastro. Today's conversation is going to be around the idea of breaking the cycle of toxic leadership. I'm excited to welcome to the podcast today Rob Kalwarowsky, who is an executive coach, author, as well as a TEDx and keynote speaker. Rob, welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:41] Rob:  Thanks Thanks for having me, Sarah. I'm excited to chop it up with you and with all your leaders out there.

[00:01:47] Sarah:  Yeah. Thanks for being here. So toxic leaders, I've encountered a number of them myself, and there's just really no room for them in businesses today. So before we get into to some of our questions, go ahead and share anything you would like about yourself with our listeners. Just give them a bit of background information on you.

[00:02:08] Rob:  Yeah. So I'm an MIT mechanical engineer by training. I spent ten years in heavy industry. I started out my career in mining, then I moved into consulting across heavy industries. So I've been to mines, power plants, manufacturing, like across the board there, and then I finished my, at least my engineering career in working in pipelines. And that was actually the reason why I started going into leadership was, one, was I had an experience with a toxic boss in mining immediately out of college. But then when I was doing consulting, I probably went to 50 to 60 different facilities across North America, and I started seeing the same things.

[00:02:58] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:02:59] Rob:  And it was this culture well, often it was just the folks that I was going out with. I was going on planned tours. I was looking at equipment. I was doing that kind of work, but I was out there with mechanics, millwrights, technicians, operators, and often, I heard the same stuff. Nobody listens to me before, so I stopped sharing what's going on. I'm not super happy with my job. I saw some of the bullying and the toxicity, and then I've also, you know, worked in and also been a part of, like, hey. You're another consultant. We hired one last week. It was the flavor of the month. Nothing's ever gonna change. And these are the things I saw for ten years, um, I started learning, well, actually there's a better way. And people don't actually have to feel the way I did when I felt had a bad boss, I was depressed. It lasted a long time and I had to really work my way out of it. Mhmm. But people don't have to feel that way and we can, on the other side, which is amazing, so people can feel happier and engaged and we get better work, we get more productive, more profitable, less safety instances, and lower turnover so we can retain great people, get better results, and people are happier and healthier.

[00:04:20] Sarah:  Yeah. So when we think about what the leadership, I guess, trends or evolution styles are today and then where we're at within the talent landscape, like, what are some of the forces that have kind of collectively brought us to this point where we're talking so much about how leadership needs to evolve and what effective leadership looks like today?

[00:04:49] Rob:  Yes. The biggest thing here, right, is we've seen this shift. One is from Gen Zs, also from some millennials. Like I know you're a millennial, I'm a millennial, right? But it's especially was accelerated during COVID was this element of, I am not working for the paycheck necessarily. I also want other things. Mhmm. And so when Gallup talks about how what five behaviors to engage their people, their five top behaviors are having constant feedback conversations with your manager, focusing on your strengths, which as a manager, it's like you're focusing on your people's strengths.

[00:05:35] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:05:35] Rob:  Developing their career and, like, helping them achieve their career goals. Basically being a coach versus being a manager. And, like, that's the way I like to think of it now, which is very different than the classic what we saw in heavy industry or what we still see in some spaces in heavy industry, which is this command and control, very much fear driven space where maybe the boomers didn't mind this. Maybe it came from their parents, which were part of the war, and so the culture kinda sits a little bit differently. Mhmm. But especially now with young younger generations is there's, uh, we're we're just not doing this anymore. Like we'll leave. And that's where we talk a lot about in the manufacturing and in these types of spaces is there's a talent gap and we can actually solve part of that with being a better leader because we'll retain and attract the best talent. Yeah.

[00:06:41] Sarah:  Alright. What I wanna talk about next is research has made clear that when leaders focus on emotional intelligence, empathy, inclusion, as you mentioned earlier, people are happier and they thrive in their roles, and it has been evidenced to have a positive impact on company performance as well as retention. So that being said, there are still pockets, whether that's organizations as a whole or individual leaders, who have resistance to the idea of embracing some of these traits? Why do you think that is?

[00:07:19] Rob:  With all of my work, I focus a lot with my leaders on psychology. Mhmm. Because, ultimately, if we change our minds, that's how we change our behavior. Mhmm. And what keeps us stuck in these behaviors where we are toxic, often, it's not because we wanna be necessarily. It's because there's a part of us that was created when we were younger that is behaving in these ways. Mhmm. Like, I've done this work for five years. Right? And I've been digging into this for a long time, and I've written a book. I did a TED talk. Like, I have moments where I have, like, yelled at somebody. Mhmm. And I'm not proud of it. I'm not saying it's good. It's definitely not good leadership. Right? We've all had these moments. Right? We've been under a ton of pressure. We're trying to get this worked on. Somebody on our team is like, Rob, I can't come in today, or, like, Rob, like, you're wrong, and you're just like and it hits like this thing. Right? Those are moments where we can learn from that and grow. Mhmm. The other side of it is toxic leadership is more than just that.

[00:08:38] Sarah:  I was also thinking, you know, it's good to reinforce that we're all human. Right? And so there are going to be those moments that do occur regardless of how good of a leader you are and how hard you're working on your continual self improvement. When those things happen, it's also an opportunity for repair. Right? This is And so that's it's something that have two young children. Right? So rupture and repair is, like, a thing I commonly remind myself of. Because as a parent, especially, I came from a lot of childhood trauma. So I'm very hard on myself. I'm, like, diligently focused on breaking the cycle, but sometimes that's, like, a lot of pressure and that can cause the opposite. Right? So in those times where I do lose my shit and yell, right, I own it and I apologize. And I tell them that was me not being able to handle my emotions well, not their fault. And I make sure we have that repair. Obviously, that's a a very personal example because I'm talking about parenthood. But my point is when those moments arise in leadership, rather than being frustrated with yourself or embarrassed or fearful of breaching your seniority, there's actually an opportunity there to own the behavior and apologize that can bring you closer to that employee than just letting it go or pretending it didn't happen, etcetera. That's just what came to mind.

[00:10:19] Rob:  You're absolutely right. And also for folks out there, like, you will feel frustrated. You will feel shame. This is totally normal. It's nothing like, it's not like when I yelled at somebody, I felt shame or, Sarah, when you yell your kids, like, you're just like, oh, fine, whatever. Right? Like, of course we feel them, right. But it's having the courage to take that and then repair. I mean, you don't have to do it immediately. You could, or you could say something like immediately, well, or like thirty minutes later, hey, Sarah, I'm sorry. Can we talk about it tomorrow or the next day? Right? To give you that time. Right? Right. But it's very much like, I don't want you to think, like, oh, I'll just move on. Right? Like Mhmm. You're human. It's all normal. It's part of the process.

[00:11:07] Sarah:  Yeah.

[00:11:08] Rob:  Right?

[00:11:09] Sarah:  Yeah. So I believe where you were going next when I interrupted you with that thought is to talk about and this is good because this is something I thought of when you were going through your introduction, different types of toxicity. So can we talk about that for a moment?

[00:11:24] Rob:  Yes. So the research that I used talks about six different types of destructive leaders, and I like to think of them as archetypes. And when I do psychology or some of the mindset work I do with leaders, I use internal family systems, which is very much, like, you can think of it like you have the devil and the angel on your shoulder or if you've seen Inside Out. Right? It's like these little characters that sit at the control panel of people's minds. Mhmm. And I like to think about these six bad boss types as, like, we have all six of them in our brain. Of course, some will be bigger than others or more vocal than others or they'll lead more often than others, but, ultimately, we need to lead ourselves and them so then we can be the best leader.

[00:12:12] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:12:13] Rob:  Right? Now let's talk about, like, what are these six destructive types. So we kinda started off with the two that we think about. When we say, like, what's an asshole boss Mhmm. We think about basically two types. One is the what's known as the arrogant and violent boss, which is your classic like, I like to think of it as like Gordon Ramsay on Hell's Kitchen and someone gives him raw chicken. Mhmm. Right? And it's like he throws it on the ground. He calls them a doughnut. Like, he swears, like, all this stuff. Right? It's actually not super common. So roughly 5.5% of the workforce has a boss like that. What's more common, and you see this a lot in heavy industry as well as you see this a lot. I mean, you're seeing it in politics in The United States and also around the world, is called the abusive narcissist. This is basically very similar. It's all about me. I take credit. I deflect blame. I can make threats against my people, these kind of behaviors. And you can think of this as like Leonardo DiCaprio's role on Wolf of Wall Street, like the Jordan Belfort character, right? Actually, wildly pretty common about, was it 19 something percent, like roughly 20 of folks have a boss like this. Mhmm. What we see, and the research backs this part up, is these type of folks actually are very good at getting up into the higher echelons of organizations. Mhmm. Those are the classic types. So let's start moving into what we see. Actually, some I see this a lot, actually, and they're roughly 15 to 20% of folks experience these on the opposite side. They're called the passive leaders. Mhmm. One is your ghost manager. This is George Costanza sleeping under his desk in Seinfeld. Right? And you see that I see this a lot in heavy industry and I've seen it a lot recently is people don't wanna make decisions. Mhmm. So they defer. Hey. That's upper management's job, or, hey. You're the expert. Why don't you decide? Mhmm. Right? And so I don't have to take accountability. I don't have to take responsibility. I just get to, like, not do. Mhmm. That's the ghost manager.

[00:14:38] Sarah:  Okay.

[00:14:39] Rob:  One that's kinda similar is called the messy boss. And again, the ghost manager is not out to get you. He's not bullying you. He's not doing these things. It's just like, hey, I'm trying to, like, avoid responsibility. And often that is a psychological thing where it's like either they feel like they don't deserve to be the manager or they feel like if they make a decision and it's wrong, they could get fired or like someone will be upset with them. Right? The messy boss, I think it's just purely they don't have management training. Mhmm. And this is they don't set expectations clearly. They don't set deadlines clearly. They don't give you basically a project plan. It's, hey, Sarah. Can you do this project for me? And then I walk away. Right? This can be folks like, some of it's they don't know how to be good managers. Some of it's just like, I'm wildly busy, and, like, I just go, Sarah, figure this out. Like, I don't have time to think about. Super common, I think, or I've seen it. Right? But it's not like it's again, this is, like, fixable stuff. Mhmm. Right? And, ultimately, if you're a leader and you notice, like, you kinda do these things, it's like just having, like, a structured way, like, literally, like, a project plan template. Mhmm. Or, like, doesn't even have to be that detailed, but sort of like, hey, Sarah. I need this thing done by next Friday. It needs to be in this sort of format. I'm expecting two pages. Just giving some more clarity on it, and that'll fix it really easily. The last two types are they're the combination types. So there's the passive aggressive boss, which, again, it's like I'm nice to your face, but behind your back, I'm being mean to you or I'll say things that are like, yeah, Sarah, that was great. Like, I always talk about Bill Lundberg from Office Space as like your classic passive aggressive boss. Mhmm. And then the final one is your passive egocentric, and this is it's all about Rob, but I'll never tell that to your face. Mhmm. And so I had a boss that literally took a report of mine, took my name off of it, put his name on it, and then sent it up the chain. Mhmm. Right? That's a classic passive egocentric. So those are the six types. And actually, 65% of the workforce experiences a boss that fits into those archetypes.

[00:17:12] Sarah:  Yeah. What's interesting so it's interesting to hear all of those. And the thought that came to my mind when we started the conversation is you mentioned some of what you have heard by spending time with frontline employees, which is, like, no one ever listens to me. And that just made me think there's degrees of toxicity that come to mind as someone losing their temper, someone taking credit for work they didn't do. So, you know, something people that are discriminatory toward certain groups of individuals, things that are are pretty significant that, like, I'm not saying that they're always caught and addressed in workplaces today. But there is a degree where, like, you would hope that some of the more flagrant things would get addressed or flagged. But there's a lot of degrees of toxicity below that, some of which can be more malicious or extreme and some that maybe are almost accidental. Right? But, like, someone not feeling heard, I guess my point is, can happen for a number of different reasons. But the outcome of that is not good. Right? I mean, not only are you not getting what could be very valuable feedback from that employee, but they start to just feel disconnected. They start to become frustrated, etcetera, etcetera. So think it's helpful to understand those archetypes and also helpful to remember that, like, when we say toxic, that can take a lot of different shapes, and it can also be at a lot of varying degrees. Right? So can you talk a bit, Rob, about how these different types of toxicity are sort of perpetuated in organizations and sort of how they can persist, if you will?

[00:19:10] Rob:  Yeah. So the first thing I just wanna say to folks, right, is it can feel overwhelming. Right? Is like now you're like, oh, I have all these things I have to think about. So where I want you to land, if you're listening to this, is likely somewhere inside of you, you have all six of those leaders or those bad bosses. Right? For you, likely, maybe one to two to three are the ones that really kinda dominate your experience or that you notice that you may come out with. You're not gonna have like, all six of them are not gonna be in your experience. Right? And so it's more about understanding when are the moments where like, for me, I definitely have an element where I'm a ghost manager. And part of that now is I run my own business, So it's like, I'm hiring a, a marketing company. I'm like, do marketing, go away. Right? But it's like, I also need to be more into that. Right? And part of it's my interest, part of it's like what I like to do. Right? But it's like, you can't just do that. Mhmm. I also have moments where I'm on that kind of abusive narcissist side because I have that inside myself against myself. Mhmm. And so it's not always that's an external thing. It's like, Rob, you didn't get more clients. You didn't book a speaking gig this month. What's wrong with you? Like, these type of things, which we all have, a lot of it's just inside our own heads. And so I don't want folks to feel overwhelmed. What I want folks to feel is, like, this is a moment for me to start tuning in to what's going on inside my mind, the voices that I hear, and understand that one is they're not you. It's a part that was created because of a hard time that you had. Mhmm. And as you listen to them and be curious, that's where you can learn to lead them. Mhmm. And so then it's, well, that will switch. That's the first thing I just wanna tell everyone.

[00:21:21] Sarah:  Yeah. So there's a lot of power and curiosity when you're doing this work, and I'm familiar with this in my personal life. So there can be this tendency when you notice these different patterns or behaviors to be hard on yourself. And just like I said in the parenting example that I shared earlier, that actually not only is it not helpful, but it just makes things worse. Right? So you really have to break the habit of being your self critic and get more curious about okay. Interesting. So, like, I just had this exchange with someone on my team, and I found myself wanting to yell at them. And, I mean, hopefully, you stop it. Right?

[00:22:04] Rob:  Yes. It's

[00:22:04] Sarah:  still an opportunity to think, like, what about that interaction made me so angry that I almost became that aggressive, toxic boss. Right? So it's not about being mad at yourself for that or being critical of yourself for that. It's about just understanding when those tendencies come up, which to your point then helps you be in better control of them.

[00:22:30] Rob:  Yeah. And so it's really just doing, like, root cause analysis on your own mind. Mhmm. And these parts of us, we all have everybody has them. And so it's not that it's like failure modes, right, on a piece of equipment. It's like when the equipment breaks and you're right, Sarah. It's not that we're always going to allow that part to yell at our people. Maybe it's yelling in our mind, and then we're, like, kinda frustrated, so we're just like, yeah, but we know we shouldn't do it, so we're like, yeah. Okay. And then we kinda disconnect. It's like when we dig into where is it coming from, what's it trying to do for us, they're all of these parts are trying to help us in some way. Mhmm. Then that's the switch is as we get curious and we start going down that rabbit hole, and I would totally recommend you get help with this, whether that's you can reach out to me, you can get help in therapy, like whatever that is, it will transform you as a leader as well as you as a parent, as well as you outside of work because this follows us this I'm pointing to my head Mhmm. Follows us everywhere.

[00:23:41] Sarah:  Right. Yeah. So you mentioned you don't want people to feel overwhelmed. So what you refer to this as is self leadership. Okay. So what else would you want to share with people about step one, don't get overwhelmed, and work on, I guess, the curiosity piece? But what else is sort of involved in this idea of self leadership?

[00:24:07] Rob:  Yeah. The first piece, Sarah, is stepping off this treadmill or this hamster wheel of work. And we get caught up with this because everybody, especially in these industries, it's like produce more with less. Mhmm. Because we gotta deliver higher returns than we did last quarter, so we gotta produce more stuff for less cost. And, like, your pew we while we wanna lay off people or we wanna cut cost or we wanted this or we wanted that. Right? It's this constant demand of I need you to do more, but I'm not even gonna give you the same amount I did last year to do it. If we can take that time and step off, and I'm not even saying like you need to step off and take two weeks off, right? I'm not even saying that. It's like literally take like an hour at lunchtime and just like or go on the weekend to like a park or a river or go for a run or go for a walk or swim or like whatever, go for a bike, whatever you like to do. Right? It's just giving yourself that time to let your brain process what's going on.

[00:25:28] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:25:30] Rob:  And that those moments are where you're going to one is you'll get better ideas. So if you need creativity to solve problems, this can help you. Right? But also it's gonna give you time where you'll, you will start to understand and listen in on what's going on in here, in my mind. That's it. Mhmm. I don't like for my clients, when I start working with them, I give them one six minute exercise every day. Mhmm. Six minutes. Mhmm. Everybody listening, you have six minutes, and that's all it takes.

[00:26:05] Sarah:  Mhmm. So what do you see as the biggest barriers to people doing this work?

[00:26:13] Rob:  It's all the stuff in our own minds. Mhmm. It takes courage to look inwards, and most people, they're caught in the constant doing.

[00:26:24] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:26:25] Rob:  And so they don't even realize that there's stuff to be done. And so Doctor. Tasha York has a book called Insight, and in her research, ninety five percent of people think they're self aware when only 12 to 15% of people actually are.

[00:26:41] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:26:42] Rob:  Right? And so 80% of folks, they think they know what's going on in their minds as well as in their interactions with others, but they're like mister Bean in the world.

[00:26:57] Sarah:  Yeah. I think the other thing that comes into play here, right, is when you think about the pressure that leaders today are under, you know, you talked about the importance of making the time to step away from that. Like, because it's also about regulating your nervous system. Right? If you don't do that, then those toxic parts are far more likely to come out to play. Right? Because you don't have the resilience to recognize those feelings in time to stop them. You can tell I'm speaking from experience. And so it's interesting though because also speaking from experience, it's very easy to confuse reasons and excuses because we're all busy. Right? And some of the leaders in these organizations, to your point, it's not just about being busy. It's also about the pressure. It's also about the profits. It's also about the do more with less. It's also about the constant influx of doom headlines. It's also all of these different things. And you have to give your body and your brain a break from that. Like, it's super, super important. And it's funny because even on this podcast I've been doing this podcast for six years, and I've interviewed leaders before that were like, my whole life changed when I started meditating. And I'd be like, oh, yeah. I need to do that. But I never did. Do you know what I mean? And it was just last year, I attended a retreat in August. And it, like, it really helped me understand the value of doing that and shutting off all of the noise. And to your point, there's value in your role, but there's more importantly value, like, as a human being. Like, we are not on this Earth to just execute, hustle, drive. It's like a toxic system, really, in so many ways.

[00:29:03] Rob:  That's the piece, right? There's a Stanford study that it says that the way that companies manage their people accounts for a hundred and twenty thousand deaths per year in The United States and five to eight percent of The US annual health care cost, which makes it the fifth leading cause of death. And it is not just I don't wanna say, like, this was all liters. Right? It's like stress. And then, obviously, high levels of stress lead to cardiovascular, strokes, heart attacks. It leads to major disease like cancer, diabetes, like these things. Mhmm. It also leads to, of course, mental health problems, anxiety, depression, like burnout, these type of things. Right? Right. And so for me, that's part of it. The other part of it is the other side of this. Like, yes, you should do it for your health, your physical and mental health, which will, of course, help you be there for your kids and your family and your friends and all these things. The other side is also, do you want to get promoted? Do you want to work in a job that you like? Do you want to take charge of your career and guide it in the way that you want to? Not how HR wants it, not how you were told that like, I was told, like, my parents, they were like, hey, go to the best college you can, get a stable job, and then, like, basically just, like, ride that out for forty five years. Mhmm. And it's like both of these, the good and the bad, you can have by starting that journey inwards

[00:30:47] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:30:48] Rob:  Because you'll find out what you like, or you'll learn strategies on, okay, how do I get promoted? Secret, it's not about working harder. And you all know this because you've seen someone get promoted because they were friends with the boss. Mhmm.

[00:31:05] Sarah:  So there's I came across a point in your content that was about a Harvard University research or study on the gap in leadership training. So I'm also curious how this plays a role. Right? Because what we've talked about really so far is, like, a lot of what is within all of us that can cause these toxic archetypes or just toxic behaviors to arise. But how does the gap in leadership training factor in or sort of exacerbate things?

[00:31:42] Rob:  Totally. So the Harvard Business Review study says that organizations spend $356,000,000,000 per year, and only 25% of it is effective because it addresses the leader's mindset, which is what we've been talking about this whole episode.

[00:32:02] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:32:02] Rob:  If we don't change our minds, we don't change our behaviors. That's fact. Mhmm. I mean, yeah. Okay. I can go to a course, and they can say, Rob, I want you to have a thirty minute meeting with all your staff once every two weeks, and I want you to ask them these five questions, great. But ultimately, in these moments of high pressure, in these moments of you gotta deliver more, which you're always under it, it's you're gonna either forget about that or what usually happens is, yeah, the next week that you leave that seminar, you're gonna do this, and then two, three weeks from now, you're back to what you did before. Mhmm. Because you didn't one is you didn't build the habit or change your mind. The other side of it is this. There's a study from Gartner that says that eighty five percent of people who get promoted into management positions don't get training at all.

[00:33:06] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:33:07] Rob:  Yay. Right. But it's like, I don't know about you. I thought about this for a long time. I was like, is there any job that I can think of that hire somebody but doesn't either require them to be trained before or give them training after?

[00:33:30] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:33:31] Rob:  Right? Like, my sister worked at a fast food restaurant when she was like in high school and they trained her. This is how you cook a burger and do fries and like this. Right? And it's like as an engineer, it's like I needed to go to college for engineering as well as like spend four years working as an engineer in training before I'm now qualified as a professional engineer. Right? And it's like, oh, well, Sarah, you were doing good as an engineer. Mhmm. Like, you're now managing engineers.

[00:34:01] Sarah:  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We kinda just throw people into it without equipping them for the job. And I think often without really even attempting to understand if it's a job that they want or will be good at. Yes. Right? And that certainly needs to change. But I think there's there's a lot of value, in my opinion, in both of these things. Right? Like, doing the mindset work because that's so much about better understanding yourself, but also having training to talk about, like like you said, what are the best practices? How often should you be having meetings? How should you be running those meetings? How should you be setting objectives and clear targets and all of these different things? Because there are a lot of individuals that get promoted into these positions that don't have that knowledge or the mindset approach. But all that does is is ramp up the stress level. Right? Because all of a sudden, they're in a job that they feel like they need to know how to do because they've been given the job, but they haven't been given the information on how to do the job well. Right? So that is certainly tough.

[00:35:13] Rob:  You're a % right. So leadership is not all just mindset. Right? Of course, you have to do the other stuff. Right? Like, you're a % right, and that's where kind of the combination of both is most effective because one is, okay, now we're unlearning some of the bad boss behaviors that that have been with us for a long time, and we're replacing those with what are the best strategies, how do we build trust, how do we build psychological safety, how do we have meetings, how do we give feedback, How do we how do we how do we? And we're building those habits Mhmm. Which then stay with us.

[00:35:52] Sarah:  Right. Yeah. That makes sense. So what happens when a leader is a toxic

[00:36:09] Rob:  narcissists, and most of them do not or not open to change. Mhmm. So if anyone out there is listening, you are not one of them because or at least your most dominant archetype is not that because if it was, you wouldn't be listening to this show. So first off, great. Right? But often those folks, the reason or somehow how they end up in front of me is there's a moment where something doesn't work. And so for me, it actually happened with one of my leaders was he was running this massive digital transformation project, and something happened with the team he managed where they were working with another department. He wasn't even in the room. But, basically, there was, like, a disagreement and something happened, and it went up the chain, around, and down onto his head. And then that was the moment where he's like, I need help, and that's when he called me. That's what often happens, right, is the toxic manager well, the arrogant, violent, abusive narcissist types, they don't change until they're forced to change.

[00:37:25] Sarah:  Mhmm. Yeah. Which is where it comes back to a conversation about organizations having more ownership over how leaders are contributing or not to the culture that they want to create because there's plenty of examples of where some of these toxic leaders that are very capable of delivering results are just sort of coddled and allowed to do their thing over time, and that's that's a whole separate problem and conversation. But to your point, the company's role can be that catalyst for people realizing they need to dig in and do some of the work. It's

[00:38:11] Rob:  both, right? And so the CEO of Novo Nordisk, like, and folks know them, Ozempic, that kind of stuff, he actually came out, I don't know, this might have been six months ago and he said, I am now measuring my leaders on how stressed their teams are. And if more than 10% of their teams are stressed or high stress, like whatever high stress and above, I am now going to, that's the KPI I'm looking at, which is incredible. You also have a great example for folks out there. So Jason Lippert, he's the CEO of Lippert Components, which is, like, $5,000,000,000 in revenue. They're based in Indiana. They make everything from RVs to boats, all these things. He has a whole department of leadership coaches in his company. They do stuff like the dream achievers program, which they put 3,000 of their employees through. Everyone from folks who work on the shop floor to managers and executives.

[00:39:15] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:39:15] Rob:  And that program focuses on not, hey, Rob. What do you want as, like, your corporate goal, but, like, what do you want as a person? And he said he came on my leadership show a few years ago, and he said the most common thing he gets from folks that go through that program are they wanna learn how they can buy their first house. And so he gets his finance team to help coach them and teach them personal finance, mortgages, like, all these things Mhmm. So then they can buy their first home. There are leaders that are incredible that are out there. And it you know, it's great when you see it at the CEO level, but you can also find them within a company. Yeah. For sure. And if you're not working for one of them, but you know, hey. There's one in another department, Try to transfer over. Mhmm. Because even for me, like, I was doing a ton of therapy and a ton of internal deep work, but there's a limit when you're in a toxic culture.

[00:40:19] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:40:20] Rob:  Because you still gotta armor up to go to work to protect yourself from feeling these ways.

[00:40:25] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:40:26] Rob:  And so what that's one thing. Right? Yeah. And if it's really bad, like for me, I attempted suicide once, It's like you gotta choose to get out.

[00:40:37] Sarah:  Mhmm.

[00:40:38] Rob:  But those are really intense situations. Right? But the biggest thing for folks out there, look, I want you to just is take control of your life and your career. Mhmm. And we've told we've been told all these stories. You should get promoted. You should be a manager. You should be this. You should be that. You said it, Sarah. Some folks like, I've been in leadership programs that I've coached, and some of the folks that in there, they, like, get to the end of the program. They're like, you know what, Rob? I just wanna go back to being an individual contributor. Mhmm. Because you know what? I don't really like, you know, all this that takes to be a good leader. Look. I just wanna, like, I wanna nerd out on this specific piece of technology or this specific piece of equipment or, like, whatever. And it's like, that is an incredibly great outcome. Mhmm.

[00:41:25] Sarah:  Yeah. For sure. I mean, that's a very important piece of doing the internal work is, why am I even doing this? Is it because it's what I really want? Or is it because my parents put pressure on me? Or is it because I've told myself that if I don't achieve x, I'm doing something wrong, etcetera? At the end of the day, it can be like you said, it it takes courage, but it but it can also be incredibly powerful to start asking yourself those questions and really understanding the answers because life's too short. Right? If you're not gonna feel fulfilled once you climb the ladder, then why are you doing it? Right? I mean, it's yeah. That's really good really good point. And I like too the examples of the leaders out there that are really thinking about this, in my opinion, in the right way because I think that I love seeing examples of people that are reinforcing the fact that you can treat people well and have a really high performing organization at the same time. I would like to see more of those examples, and I think we will. I mean, I think going back to your point about what happened with COVID and some of the generational shifts, there are just less and less people that are willing to tolerate an environment in which they are treated in a way they know they don't deserve, and that is forcing organizations to make their leaders level up, which I think is a win win. So that's really good stuff. So, Rob, thank you for coming to join and share. Folks can find you on LinkedIn. Correct?

[00:43:01] Rob:  You can find me on LinkedIn. Just my name, Rob Kowarowski. Sarah, I'll put it in the podcast notes because I'm sure it's hard to spell.

[00:43:08] Sarah:  Yeah. Rob kindly gave me a very nice phonetical type out of here's how to say it, but we will. We'll make sure it'll be in the podcast information. So, yeah, check Rob out on LinkedIn and have a look at his book and the work that he does. And yeah.

[00:43:24] Rob:  Yeah. So for the book and for my like, if you wanna check out my coaching or my speaking, like, if you host internal corporate events or you go to conferences, like, I do keynote speaking, you can check out my website. Just robcalvariski.com. So that'll be in podcast notes. And then on my website, if you click on the book tab, you can put in your email to get the first two chapters of my upcoming book for free. So check that out.

[00:43:55] Sarah:  Alright. Well, thanks for coming and spending some time with us today, Rob.

[00:43:58] Rob:  Thanks for having me, Sarah.

[00:43:59] Sarah:  You can find more by visiting The Home of the Unscripted podcast at futureoffieldservice.com. The podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thank you for listening.

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February 19, 2025 | 3 Mins Read

Are Shared Resources the Future of Service?

February 19, 2025 | 3 Mins Read

Are Shared Resources the Future of Service?

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Episode 304

In this episode of the Unscripted podcast, host Sarah Nicastro welcomes Dave Cole, Director of Energy Strategy at Sizewell C, to explore the innovative shared resources model implemented in the UK's nuclear services sector. Together, they:

• Examine how Nuclear Services was created to address talent retention challenges and maximize resource utilization across multiple nuclear power licensees

• Delve into the unique aspects of operating in a highly regulated nuclear environment, including the importance of maintaining long-term technical expertise and regulatory compliance

• Explore the benefits of the shared resources model, including enhanced career paths for employees, improved resource planning capabilities, and increased opportunities for innovation

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Also, subscribe to our newsletter right here.

Watch the episode here:

Episode Highlights:

  • [00:41:14] The Three Core Behaviors for Successful Shared Resources - 

Dave emphasizes three essential behaviors that drive success in shared resource models: collaboration, outcome focus, and curiosity. In highly regulated environments with multiple stakeholders, these behaviors create the foundation for effective resource sharing and innovation. Leaders must actively demonstrate and cultivate these behaviors, moving beyond simply stating them as values. Organizations looking to implement shared resource models should prioritize building a culture where these behaviors are lived daily through consistent actions and engagement. The success of such initiatives depends heavily on genuine commitment to these behaviors at all levels, from leadership to frontline workers.

  • [00:17:00] The Triple Role Framework for Service Organizations - 

Dave outlines three critical functions that define successful service organizations: delivering technical work, maintaining required capabilities, and serving as a technical authority. This framework provides a comprehensive approach to service delivery that goes beyond basic execution. Organizations must balance immediate delivery needs with long-term capability development while also providing strategic guidance and expertise. For service leaders, this means developing structures that support all three functions simultaneously. The framework helps organizations create more value by enabling them to act as true partners rather than just service providers.

  • [00:27:29] Strategic Resource Planning in Complex Environments - 

Dave explains how effective resource planning requires understanding both current needs and future capability requirements across different project lifecycles. Organizations must look beyond simple headcount planning to consider how roles and skills evolve over time. This approach requires maintaining strong relationships with supply chain partners while ensuring internal competency and control. Service organizations should develop comprehensive planning processes that account for both predictable changes and unexpected demands. The key is creating flexibility while maintaining the core capabilities needed for long-term success.

  • [00:45:58] Prerequisites for Implementing Shared Resource Models - 

Dave provides crucial guidance for organizations considering shared resource models by emphasizing the importance of establishing trust and shared goals before implementing commercial arrangements. Organizations should first evaluate whether they have truly unique talent or specialized skills that warrant resource sharing. Leaders must carefully consider market conditions, competitive dynamics, and future technological changes that might affect resource scarcity. This evaluation process should include assessing both the potential benefits and risks of creating interdependent relationships between different business entities. Success depends on building strong foundations of trust and alignment before formalizing resource-sharing arrangements.

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February 12, 2025 | 3 Mins Read

Balancing the Opportunity and Risk of Automating Service

February 12, 2025 | 3 Mins Read

Balancing the Opportunity and Risk of Automating Service

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Episode 303

In this episode of the Unscripted podcast, host Sarah Nicastro welcomes Arnaud Billard, Senior Director for Applications and Service for Europe at Cepheid. Together, they:

• Explore the delicate balance between AI adoption and preserving human connection in service delivery, discussing how to navigate technology evolution while maintaining valuable customer relationships

• Examine real-world examples of when automated service falls short, sharing personal experiences that highlight the critical need for human empathy and understanding in complex service situations

• Discuss how service has evolved beyond "break-fix" to become a strategic business function, with field service professionals now serving as trusted advisers who gather crucial customer intelligence

• Delve into the irreplaceable human elements of service that technology cannot replicate, including relationship building, empathy, and the ability to identify unspoken customer needs

• Consider how AI should be leveraged to handle repetitive tasks while freeing up service professionals for higher-value customer interactions

• Explore the future vision of service where AI enhances rather than replaces human capabilities, with technology working in the background while human teams maintain customer trust and drive innovation

• Address the risk of over-automation leading to service commoditization, emphasizing the importance of maintaining service as a key differentiator through meaningful human connections

The conversation provides valuable insights for service leaders navigating the AI revolution while protecting the human elements that make service truly valuable. Billard's perspective offers a balanced approach to technology adoption that enhances rather than diminishes the customer experience.

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Also, subscribe to our newsletter right here.

Episode Highlights:

Here are 4 key actionable takeaways from Arnaud Billard's insights:

  • [05:24] Balancing AI with Human Connection in Service

Arnaud emphasizes that the challenge isn't about resisting technology but finding the right balance between automation and human connection. Service organizations must recognize that while AI can drive efficiency, it shouldn't come at the cost of personal relationships with customers. Field service leaders should evaluate each technology implementation by asking whether it enhances or replaces human engagement. This approach ensures that automation supports rather than diminishes the customer experience. The goal should be to use AI for repetitive tasks while preserving the irreplaceable human elements that build trust and loyalty.

  • [17:07] Service as a Strategic Business Partner 

Service has evolved beyond simple break-fix operations into a strategic function that drives business growth. Field service professionals now serve as trusted advisers who gather customer intelligence and identify pain points that inform product development and innovation. Organizations should train their service teams to recognize and report valuable customer insights during field visits. This strategic approach transforms service from a cost center into a revenue generator by enabling new offering development and stronger customer relationships.

  • [27:03] Leveraging AI for Higher-Value Interactions

Service organizations should strategically deploy AI to handle repetitive tasks, freeing up human workers for more meaningful customer interactions. Leaders should focus on training their teams to integrate AI tools into their routines while maintaining control over decision-making. The key is using technology to enhance human capabilities rather than replace them entirely. This approach allows service professionals to spend more time building relationships and solving complex problems that require human judgment and empathy.

  • [31:23] Future-Proofing Service Excellence

The successful service organization of the future will use AI in the background for predictive maintenance and efficiency while keeping human teams at the forefront of customer relationships. Service leaders should invest in both technical and interpersonal skill development for their teams. Organizations must resist the temptation to over-automate for short-term gains, as this risks turning service into a commodity. Instead, focus on using technology to enhance technical expertise while maintaining the personal touch that differentiates excellent service from average service.

Quotes: 

1. "The struggle I refer to is not about resisting technology or AI particularly. It's more about navigating its evolution while preserving what makes a service truly valuable, which is a human connection." - Arnaud Billard

2. "Service is no longer about just fixing things. It moves step by step to a strategic function or a strategic business partner." - Arnaud Billard

3. "AI, automation, you can analyze data, provide repair recommendations, optimize scheduling, but you are not going to build relationships. You are not going to instill trust, confidence." - Arnaud Billard

4. "The service professional now, they are not only solving technical issues. They are acting as trusted adviser." - Arnaud Billard

5. "Service is a source of innovation and growth. It's one of the most overlooked aspects of service, I believe." - Arnaud Billard

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February 5, 2025 | 3 Mins Read

WBR Weighs In on The State of AI in Field Service

February 5, 2025 | 3 Mins Read

WBR Weighs In on The State of AI in Field Service

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Episode 302

In this episode of The Unscripted Podcast, host Sarah Nicastro is joined by Maureen Azzato, Portfolio Director for Manufacturing and Field Service Events at Worldwide Business Research (WBR), to discuss the current state of AI in field service. Drawing from WBR's recent research, they explore the industry's adoption trends, successful use cases, and common implementation challenges. 

Maureen shares insights on how early adopters are leveraging AI for operational efficiency, knowledge management, and improved customer satisfaction, while addressing concerns about integration, costs, and change management. They also discuss the future of AI in field service and preview upcoming topics for the Field Service Palm Springs 2024 event.

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Also, subscribe to our newsletter right here.

Episode Highlights:

  • [00:11:45] **Current State of AI Adoption**

Organizations are at different stages with AI adoption - about one-third are early adopters diving in fearlessly, while 50% show cautious optimism. Those taking action now are learning and failing fast, while others wait on the sidelines. The key message is that AI isn't just another tool but will become woven into the business fabric, similar to how smartphones and the internet became essential. Organizations need to start somewhere rather than trying to solve everything at once.

  • [00:17:50] **Proven AI Use Cases Delivering Value**

The research reveals several areas where organizations are seeing concrete benefits from AI implementation. These include improved operational efficiency through automated scheduling and dispatching, better resource allocation, enhanced safety protocols, and productivity improvements both in the field and back office. Real-time support capabilities and speedier diagnostics are also delivering measurable value, ultimately leading to higher customer satisfaction.

  • [00:29:00] **Integration and Change Management Challenges**

Two major hurdles emerge in AI implementation: system integration challenges and change management. Organizations struggle with connecting multiple applications and desire platform-agnostic solutions. The human element presents an even bigger challenge, with workers fearing job displacement. Leaders must address these fears head-on while demonstrating how AI will enhance rather than replace jobs, especially given the persistent labor shortage in field service.

  • [00:34:55] **Future Vision for AI in Field Service**

Looking five years ahead, the industry is moving beyond predictive maintenance toward more proactive and prescriptive service models. AI will enable systems to take corrective actions before problems occur, while robotics will play an increasing role. The traditional break-fix model is expected to become obsolete as organizations leverage AI to deliver more proactive service experiences that drive higher customer satisfaction.

  • [00:42:32] **Broader Industry Evolution**

Beyond AI, the field service industry is grappling with several interconnected challenges including succession planning, culture shifts, remote service capabilities, and supply chain optimization. The next generation of leaders is particularly focused on creating organizations that align with employee values while addressing skills gaps and technology adoption challenges.

Quotes: 

"I think what changed everything was generative AI... it was generative AI that really was the sea change in being able to take large amounts of data and text and information and pour it into a solution that can give you real value." - Maureen Azzato

"The biggest challenges I hear about actually is integration... what the market is looking for is give me a platform that's agnostic where I could plug and play no matter what I want to plug into it." - Maureen Azzato

"The field service engineer and technician is going to be doing a lot higher level activities now because of AI. They're going to be that trusted advisor... the eyes and ears of service organizations." - Maureen Azzato

"Find one thing that you can do that will have a big impact. What's that low hanging fruit that you think you can solve for instead of trying to find that one huge thing that might change your world." - Maureen Azzato

"AI can help us be better corporate citizens, environmental citizens, be more efficient... when you're a more sustainable company, you're also probably a more profitable company." - Maureen Azzato

"Service is going to move to just be more proactive in all areas... the break-fix model is not going to be anything that's going to sit around for very long." - Maureen Azzato

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January 29, 2025 | 3 Mins Read

The Most Common EQ Missteps (And What Works Instead)

January 29, 2025 | 3 Mins Read

The Most Common EQ Missteps (And What Works Instead)

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Episode 301

In this episode of the Unscripted podcast, host Sarah Nicastro welcomes Sara Mueller, an Emotional Intelligence (EQ) Keynote Speaker, Leadership Trainer, and Executive Coach, for a discussion around the misconceptions about EQ, the most common missteps across the four pillars of EQ, and what to do in each pillar that works.

Sara has over 15 years of experience in the field. After transitioning from a successful career in the field service industry, Sarah dedicated herself to exploring EQ and self-mastery, driven by her own journey through burnout and personal challenges. She has worked with Fortune 1000 executives and has published a book on the subject, The Balanced Life Blueprint.

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Also, subscribe to our newsletter right here.

Episode Highlights:

  • [08:45] - Pillar 1: Self-Awareness: Self-awareness is the foundation of emotional intelligence and effective leadership. While 95% of people think they're self-aware, research shows only 10-15% actually are. As leaders, our self-awareness often diminishes as we climb higher, making it critical to actively seek feedback from all directions. Expanding our emotional vocabulary is equally vital. Most people can name only three emotions when there are 87 to draw from.
  • [18:41] - Pillar 2: Self-Management: While it might not be the flashiest skill, self-management is the foundation for consistent, high performance. It's about making disciplined choices that align with your long-term goals instead of giving in to instant gratification. Often, we know what we should do but don’t follow through because old patterns and thoughts hold us back. The key is catching yourself in those moments, focusing on neutral facts instead of emotional reactions, and creating habits that allow time for what truly matters.
  • [26:07] - Pillar 3: Empathy and Others' Awareness: Listening to understand is the cornerstone of empathy and emotional intelligence. As leaders, the instinct to jump in and solve problems can backfire, leaving teams disempowered and innovation stifled. Instead, pause, ask questions, and create space for your team to express themselves and identify root causes. Engaged employees who feel heard are three times more likely to thrive at work.
  • [30:33] - Pillar 4: Relationship Management: The glue that ties all pillars of emotional intelligence together, relationship management focuses on inspiring greatness in others rather than leading through fear or authority. It's about creating a culture of respect, tough love, and honest communication, where conflict is embraced as a pathway to innovation and growth. Start by bridging the "delusion gap" in recognition. Regular, specific praise tied to outcomes can be a quick win. Additionally, stop avoiding conflict. Instead, adopt a "me and you versus the problem" mindset, equipping your team with tools to navigate challenges collaboratively and constructively.

Quotes:

  • “We're looking at emotions as data. If we're angry about something, that means that we need to maybe put up a boundary, make a change, or take a stand.”
  • “We think EQ takes time. We think it takes time to treat our employees well with that recognition. But it's being proactive because if that employee isn't getting that level of care, that human-to-human connection that you're talking about, they're likely gonna leave.”
  • “People who have high EQ are 27% more productive than their average EQ counterparts. People who work for a high EQ manager are 50% more inspired, especially in the service industry.”
  • “Self-awareness is really understanding and knowing yourself. It's about understanding your values, your strengths, and your weaknesses. It's about having an accurate perception of yourself as a leader.”

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January 22, 2025 | 27 Mins Read

Defining the Service Leader’s Duty Around the "Silver Tsunami"

January 22, 2025 | 27 Mins Read

Defining the Service Leader’s Duty Around the "Silver Tsunami"

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Episode 300

In this episode of the Unscripted podcast, host Sarah Nicastro welcomes Joern Lindstaedt, SVP for Global Customer Service at Rolls-Royce Power Systems, who was acknowledged as a Future of Field Service Stand Out 50 leader last year. Joern shares his views on what service leaders must do to navigate the looming silver tsunami.

Joern has over 20 years of experience in customer and product support in aviation, transportation, and power generation. With a career that began in aviation as an airplane mechanic and evolved through various service roles at leading OEMs, Joern brings a wealth of experience in leading global, cross-functional teams, as well as developing and implementing global service support strategies and MRO networks.

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Also, subscribe to our newsletter right here.

Joern - 00:00:00: I learned about the term silver tsunami during the service council event last year in Chicago. And I knew there is something like that. It's like an animal sitting in a bush and someday it will jump. But when I heard those staggering numbers for the US, the amount of people going to retire in the next couple of years, I was quite shocked. So it is something where, okay, everyone knows the demographic change and the boomers going to retire.

Sarah - 00:00:41: Welcome to the UNSCRIPTED podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today's episode is a very special episode. It is our 300th episode. And I recorded this episode while in London and actually got on and recorded the entire thing without realizing that it was, in fact, the 300th episode that we were recording. So I wanted to add this bit just to acknowledge such a big milestone for the podcast and really to say thank you to the guests, 300 guests that have joined me to share their insights, their wisdom, their passion, their opinions with myself, the Future of Field Service community, and the broader service landscape. It's been an honor to be able to have these conversations. I know I've learned so much from them myself and I absolutely enjoy hearing feedback from our listeners on when they listen, how they listen. Some people take the podcast on their morning walks, some people listen on their commute, some people listen when they're on an airplane and however, and wherever you listened. And however, you got here, I'm glad you are in. And it's an honor to be able to share our guests and these conversations with you. Today's episode is no exception. You will be hearing from Joern Lindstaedt of Rolls-Royce Power Systems. We have a great conversation about how he is taking responsibility and doing his part as a service leader in the face of the silver tsunami. So I hope you enjoy the episode. I hope you will join me in celebrating the milestone of 300 episodes, and I hope to keep them coming. Joern, welcome to the podcast.

Joern - 00:02:45: Thanks, Sarah. Nice to meet you.

Sarah - 00:02:47: Thanks for being here.

Joern - 00:02:48: I hope you had a good break over the new year and Christmas.

Sarah - 00:02:53: Very much so, yeah. With eight and nine-year-old boys, it was a lot of fun. Very energetic, a lot of excitement, a lot of fun. Yes. Some of you may remember Joern spoke in 2024 at our Future of Field Service live event in Cologne, and his session from the event was featured on the podcast, so you may have seen him there. You also might recognize him as one of the recipients of the Future of Field Service Standout 50 Leadership Awards that we did last year in 2024. So he was nominated, selected and acknowledged for the impact that he has had as a service leader. So that's excellent. And that standout 50 acknowledgement correlates into the conversation we're going to have today because it's really about doing some introspection and some deep thinking about what it is that's going on in the service landscape today and how we can really start to not only think differently, but act differently to navigate the challenges that are in front of us to make sure that we're seizing the opportunities that are in front of us. And you have some very compelling thoughts on this topic that we're going to get into today. So before we get into talking about the silver tsunami, just tell everyone a little bit more about yourself.

Joern - 00:04:17: Okay. Thanks Sarah. Well, I'm Joern. You may have heard that from my accent give-as-away. Born in Berlin, and for most of my life, I worked in aviation, so I worked as an airplane mechanic. So basically always in the service industry. I studied aeronautics and worked for several OEMs, including Pratt & Whitney Canada, MTR Aero Engines, and Rolls-Royce. Always in service roles, service function, very service operational. And exactly six years ago, I swapped planes for ships and trains and other products of the power systems portfolio. And I really enjoy it. It's the role I have, really focusing on day-to-day customer and product support, sheet service. That's, I think, how we connected. Training, very important. 24-7 support. So all the very essential service delivery functions and tasks a service manager can deal with day by day. And I can tell you, swapping from aviation to an industrial side, I never had a dual day in those six years. And it's really an amazing job.

Sarah - 00:05:27: Wonderful. So the silver tsunami topic that we are speaking on today, it's a very multifaceted challenge for service leaders to work through. And I want to start by just defining a bit some of the layers of the challenge. So to start, can you just describe in your words what we mean when we say the silver tsunami?

Joern - 00:05:49: Okay. So for me, actually, I have to confess, I learned about the term silver tsunami during the service council event last year in Chicago. And I knew there is something like that. It's like an animal sitting in a bush and someday it will jump. But when I heard those staggering numbers for the US, the amount of people going to retire in the next couple of years, I was quite shocked. So it is something where, okay, everyone knows the demographic change and the Boomers going to retire, many of them retired. You can go ahead with the Gen X soon that we need to deal with. I personally looked at the numbers for us. It's not that dramatic, but it will come. And I started in Chicago. Imagine we waves. When it comes in waves like a tsunami. First, the stuff goes away, the water. And then the huge waves of problems come in. And actually, the term describes the problem quite well. Because nobody can walk away from that, right? It's so huge and this is nothing a single company can just deal with on its own. It needs new thinking, new approaches to actually deal with it. And in this case, come out better than before. It has so many impacts on so many levels and fronts. I guess we talk about this in more depth.

Sarah - 00:07:22: Yeah. No, and I'm glad you mentioned that you heard the term first at The Service Council Event last year, because I shouldn't assume that listeners have heard the term. So in the field service arena specifically, and probably, maybe not probably, perhaps in the US more so, it's a term that's been used over the last five years, maybe longer, talking about this looming issue of how many people are going to reach retirement age at one time or in a condensed period of time. And so that's essentially what we're referring to when we say silver tsunami. But when we think about field service and service specifically, can you talk a little bit about what are some of the facets of that challenge? So obviously, there's a lot of people leaving the workforce in a short amount of time. That's one. What are some of the things that compound that?

Joern - 00:08:21: Of course, service really relies on highly skilled labor and technicians, right? And the loss of workforce also means loss of skills, experience. I mean, each company can make the math how many thousands of years will disappear in the next couple of years. And that skill and experience somehow, it's not easy to transfer, right? So even if you get in the younger generation, it will take time to bring it up to that level. So that will mean, and obviously not only for the business to deliver the business plans, there will be a lot of disruption. There will be disruption in the teams, in the organization, because also team dynamics will change the, let's say, institutional knowledge will get lost. Each of the people had their own network, so to speak. So for me, this is something, A, you got to deal with it, and B, it's not just like a battle for talent. And B, the quickest shark in the pond and grab the talent, it's really a big strategic item each company has to deal with on sea level and to address many areas starting from HR, right? So what is our culture and brand? How do we want to approach those new generation of employees? Which, by the way, also the new generation on the customer side, right? And what's career development? I certainly don't see like in field service that you have an apprentice and then you work through 40 plus years as a technician. So what are the career development plans? What are the flexibility we give to those employees? And with that, other aspects come in, right? Employee experience, so to speak, will be very important. The use of Gen AI. So where do you use Gen AI? Of course, where you can improve the employee experience, like in planning the job and enabling more remote services. And I don't know who said it. I think it was in Cologne. If a technician can do his job, his work in a coffee, on a laptop, in his Birkenstock sandals, and can help the customer immediately and not just sit and jumping in the car and driving to the customer side, only then to learn that he could have done it remotely.

Sarah - 00:10:50: Sure.

Joern - 00:10:50: Or if he had to go there, that he's missing parts and other things. So that's important, right? So make that job and employee experience better, because I've fundamentally believe that a great employee experience is fundamentally important for customer experience.

Sarah - 00:11:08: Absolutely.

Joern - 00:11:09: Then I also think less is more. If you listen to a TOMRA and the leadership there on the service side, they actually want to really reduce the amount of sheet service jobs. And while in our industry that's not really possible, or I don't really want it to that scale, it allows us to think and really say, where can we do more kind of use of connectivity, monitoring, transfer the maintenance programs into more like an on condition type of maintenance regime. And with that also reduce maintenance costs and disruption for the customer. Because if I ask 10 customers in my area, either aviation or marine, everyone would repeat the same what's important for them. It's availability, uptime, and the slow cost of life cycles. And that's equal for most of the industries, right? So we also have to think about the less is more approach in the future.

Sarah - 00:12:12: Yeah.

Joern - 00:12:12: Other aspects, maybe training. It's often the first experience for people onboarding. So to really invest into e-learning hybrid. And especially, and maybe one thing, which is another kind of, not the silver tsunami, but the technology tsunami, right? So, hybridization and electrification is changing in a speed which hadn't been seen before. So, in the past, there were mechanics, right? And there were weapon engines, etc. And now we need people with mechatronics, electronics, pro-electronics, high voltage. And you really need to know your stuff, right? It also has implications with regards to health and safety. And so, it's that basically there are more waves coming together and overlaying each other. And that's certainly a big challenge.

Sarah - 00:13:05: Yeah. No, absolutely. So to your point, it isn't just about the fact that a lot of people are going to be retiring. You have combined in that that in the amount of time those folks have been in the workforce, we haven't always been doing a good job of capturing their knowledge. We haven't necessarily been leveraging technology in a way that that's been documented and is accessible or usable by other folks, right? And so they're leaving with all of these skills and knowledge that really only exist within them.

Joern - 00:13:35: That's so sad, right? After 40 plus years, some of the technicians go, they have such a knowledge and nobody really in like a structural fashion asked them about the input, download your experience and they're just gone. And it leaves them also empty. And that's also something which is on my agenda to see how you can do a pairing up like a mentoring type of relationship with the younger generation, send them out together on jobs in effect and even use them for the e-learning for the training where you say, oh I need to explain something to somebody. Then you have the school book that that the manuals and then you have like the tips and tricks of experienced technicians. And so that's on my radar to more put it into a structural approach.

Sarah - 00:14:26: Yeah. And then one of the biggest factors that is exacerbating this challenge is that we don't have talent coming into these roles at the pace that we need to replace them. And like you said, there's the technology tsunami alongside, right? So the way that we can and arguably should deliver service is changing in addition to the workforce landscape. So what I want to do is talk about some of these areas of responsibility that service leaders carry to navigate the silver tsunami. So the first thing I want to talk about is avoiding a victim mentality. You phrase this as falling in love with the problem. So can you talk a little bit about what you mean by that?

Joern - 00:15:14: They're just saying falling in love is a problem rather than the solution. A lot of in the service arena where people have lots of experience and for every possible scenario, they think they have an answer. It's basically really to take a step back and take time to think it through because it's so many layers. It's just not a battle for the talent. And if you have that battle, how do you need to go about this? How do you even praise? I think in Cologne, we had someone talking about how do you actually make your role advertising stuff on what criteria you hire them. So the problem is much bigger than just like, okay, I have less people. Okay, it's not my fault. It's big demographic things. I can't change that. And after the Second World War in the 50s, despite of birth rates, but it's an issue, right? In all markets, the science are really good that the industries can grow, right? And the thing is, if you don't really pay attention and go into the details, service could in the rows, to be honest. And so it can have a business impact for those who was not addressing that. And that's why I think it belongs into the C level, because even if you manage it practically somehow with outsourcing, even this outsourcing, then you increase the cost because it's not cheaper, right? And in the same instance, you really need to think, if I go for outsourcing as a route to mitigate some of these effects. Then you should also ask, okay, what tasks, what things do I outsource? So what is the core competence I want to maintain? What are the transactional service jobs I want to maintain with me? Because it has to do also with something with keeping the customer relationship and not just like outsource everything and then be totally disconnected by the operators. And last but not least on the problem, the thinking I said earlier, I don't think something massive like that each company can solve on its own. I think you also have to talk about collaboration across industry, collaboration with colleges, universities, with training academies. Maybe there are ways to bundle those training academies and really attract talent in a way that they really want to work in service. And what is a potential career path for being, let's say, moving from field service then into service management and into company management positions? Because I think what I also learned in Chicago is that's not only the silver tsunami, which is happening, also the younger workforce is not staying as long. So we have to double whammy of talent exiting after five to 10 years. And so that basically reflects that we have to address the needs of that generation.

Sarah - 00:18:26: So one of the things that becomes important in service is for the service leader to act as a conduit within the business between the service function, HR, and executive leadership. So can you talk a little bit about the responsibility to bring these parties together and help them understand the layers of what this challenge is and what it means for the business?

Joern - 00:18:50: The C-level leaders and executive team leaders, of course, they need the story, but they also need facts and figures. So basically, you have to describe the problem. So for which functional areas, for which skills, how does it look like for your particular company? And basically, as people go out, then the experience, how people come in through apprenticeship programs, through universities, etc. Then basically, you show the growing problem in the next years, which if you do the nothing case, would likely increase the risk of not delivering the business plans. And that's true for every company. And you grab their attention pretty quick. And because of those multi-layers, because it's not just like in service, in service and field service, it's very obvious. Right now, it still goes through each of the company function. It will not just stop in service and then purchasing or engineering. You don't have the same issues. You do have the same issues there. So it needs basically sponsorship by the C-level because it's like it's not a project, right? It's not a silver tsunami project. It's something where a company fundamentally needs to address that. And I call it riding the waves of the silver tsunami. So how do you ride it? What are the strategies to come out as a more resilient company and make the problem to more like hey guys, it's actually an opportunity, right? If we do it right. Because you want to, basically now we need the future employees and we want them as long as possible to stay with the company, right?

Sarah - 00:20:42: Yeah. Now, you touched on this a bit earlier, but let's talk about the need to prioritize solutions for knowledge management and also be a bit more inventive about how we might leverage our aging talent longer or in different ways.

Joern - 00:21:00: There are two aspects. One, we're already doing, and it's what we introduced last year. It's a new e-learning platform for technical training, but we also will use it for sales and service management. But on the technical training, we went back to very experienced technicians and went through and creating those e-learns together with learning management, because I haven't put it more like the editorial, the content type of work. And then we did videos for key tasks, with their help, and capturing that knowledge in videos. And those will never go away, right? And you do tips and tricks, safety topics. So I said, okay, there's a pound. The manual would say remove the pound, but they would say, okay, be careful. The pound is 15 kilos, so you need to kind of protect yourself and be ready. There's like some weight coming. And they felt it, and it was quite good. So they see that this is like, it's already capturing their knowledge, and they're happy to support it. And that's ongoing. And we have a couple of thousand customers, what technicians from our network now owns on that platform. So it's quite good. The learning we is changing from in the past, okay, you have to send people to Singapore, to Germany, to the US to do a training course. And now they can even prepare online. They do the testing and exams. And then when they come to a training, and e-council training, they can address the knowledge gaps, et cetera, and really accelerating actually the onboarding of

Sarah - 00:22:39: people.

Joern - 00:22:40: And the others are really what I mentioned earlier, which I haven't done really yet, but it's more like a mentoring program and buddy system pair people up. Where you bring on the older generation with the younger generation. It would be good that the pairing is based on sympathy and rightness, like it also needs to kind of click even to a point where you would think, hey, do you maybe need to, like in Germany, with 65 or in the future, 67, the contract stops. You can't continue to work like in other areas of the world where you can continue to work. So it's like if people are fit and want to work, so what is the framework that can still contribute and contribute with their expert know-how? And that's how we have to work with our global network and with human resources to come up with respective approaches, right? I mean, a lot of these people, I found it funny when I had a post on LinkedIn on the silver tsunami following the Chicago visit. And I had like a general eye doing the picture of the guy retiring. He had actually a smile on his face. I didn't put in the proud thing, the smiling technician, but what it told me is, hey, the guys can look back at a very fulfilled life, stressful and sometimes really crazy at times, but a very rewarding job, right? They leave behind and they should also enjoy their retirement. But for those who really want to continue to contribute and whatever means, I think we should give them an opportunity, right?

Sarah - 00:24:26: Yeah, another example that I've seen when you pull in what's possible from a technology standpoint is companies leveraging remote assistance or augmented reality solutions. So instead of what you're saying, having a one-to-one mentorship, you could have an older technician in the office or even at home who can virtually connect with three or five technicians every day. So if they get stuck, they tag that person in to see what they see and walk them through it, etc. That's one of the overarching points in this conversation is there are so many potential solutions and parts of the solution that you just have to be willing to think differently and explore and try new things. Speaking of that creativity, we talked about the fact that updating job descriptions or changing the way that we describe or market these roles certainly isn't the solution in its entirety. But we do need to continue to push to be more creative about how we attract new talent into field service. What are your thoughts on what this might look like or what people should be thinking about or trying to get more of the younger talent interested in these careers?

Joern - 00:25:48: It starts with speaking to those generation. I'd go out to the colleges, the schools and talk about that those are the jobs out there and how interesting they are and actually travel the world and be kind of supporting customers. Last year we did a program where we have like in Germany like an apprenticeship program which then goes for three years and but every country has such a like an apprenticeship program. But in that way and then from time to time, we put like experienced technicians. And they talked about the jobs. We took people on a voluntary basis out into the field. And with that we actually recruited three times more of the apprentice who finished for service that's been in the past to really talk about it, listen to them, what's important to them and then what type of flexibility they need. And with that, it put then you can talk about what roles we need, right? So we started creating a hybrid role where we say, okay, what is the relation between working at the customer and at the system in turning branches where it was working from home in the past? There's always like a percentage level. Boom. You have to work with the customer and utilization is the most important KPI for a technician and you need to have a utilization of 90%. So we have to ask ourselves, what does utilization consist? Is it just turning branches or is it actually solving a problem for a customer? And how you do it, it's totally different. So you have to break through some of the older kind of KPIs and methods and really give it a new perspective. And I think if there's discussion, if you always go back to what does the customer need and what makes a company more efficient, often it doesn't conflict with what the new generation, what their expectations are. So what you said earlier, the ability to work remote, remote assistance and remote troubleshooting, having expert joining those sessions, because I think like chatbot, I'm not a big fan in private life using a chatbot, right? I'm very picky. And so, but the younger generation, they use chatbot all the time, but also in customers, they would be more. Open to use those type of new technologies. So, hey, we should look into this and see in the next years where Gen AI can help us planning the jobs. If the planning of field service is so, the results are so disruptive. And this is like a pain in itself, the traveling and the way we're doing it and pushing too much in and always be with the back against the wall. Nobody wants that. And that's why I'm also very happy that we signed up this IFS on a workforce management. So reintroducing that in the next couple of years, that is also part of the employee experience. And all that together, the employee experience, the customer experience, use technology on purpose to make that better, have a career opportunity for them that they can grow and choose technology. Okay, instead of 10 jobs a week, now you can do 12 or 13 jobs a week. And by the way, you do it until you retire at 67. I mean, how many kids really volunteer? I want that. I don't think so.

Sarah - 00:29:29: Yeah, it's a really good point. I mean, it's looking at the bigger picture. I did a podcast last year with ABB and they talked about some of the specific applications within their service business for augmented reality and AI. And the time they've gained back from that. And he mentioned specifically, not just allowing the company to absorb all of that time to expect more, right? But to give some of that time back to the employee. It's the shift in thinking from just the short term, how much can we wring out of people to the longer term? How can we create a balance where we're hitting the productivity we need to? We're making our customers happy, but we're not doing it to the detriment of our employees, because we know that they're not going to tolerate that, the younger talent, they're not going to stick around, right? And then to your point, the importance of just acknowledging that it's very unlikely to have young talent join and expect them to stay in a role for 10, 15, 20 years the way that has been normal, right? And so it goes back to the point you made about not taking a victim mentality. Sometimes where companies get stuck here is that rather than accepting the problem and deciding to see it as an opportunity. They spend time thinking, I wish it would go back to the way it was, right? And it's just, it's futile and it's not going to, right? So we really need to do things differently. When it comes to the technology piece, you just talked about some of the things that you are doing to take these important steps. And to your point, particularly, let's talk about the workforce planning. It's a good point because when you're thinking about something like utilization, it can also be very common for the company to focus on maybe where the employee is falling short. But there's also a responsibility from the organization perspective of have we invested in the right tools to make our operation as efficient as it can be, right? That's a conversation on both sides. When it comes to how you're looking at technology's role in this overall puzzle, though, are there things that you keep in mind in terms of the way to leverage technology well? And in a way that will benefit everyone versus looking at it the wrong way or either rushing or expecting that you can replace the workforce with AI. Like, are there certain things that you kind of think through in your own filter of where technology can help in this conversation?

Joern - 00:32:17: I mean, when I talk about technology with purpose, the purpose comes from A, delivering an outcome to a customer, to a partner, whatever. But then also that delivery, that it's really at the point to the cost on time and smooth. And the field service teams, they all have the knowledge how it works and what can go wrong and how many dots you basically have to connect to actually have that great experience from the customer and employee experience. Being on time, being there, the sun is shining, the parts are there, the tooling is there, and the scope is clear. And if you need support, you get the backup from the headquarter with remote assistance and connecting the dot. That is where the Gen AI and the technology can help to basically with the thousands of jobs each of us has to plan over a year with that complexity, the scheduling changing. You need the assistance of really technology of tools to help making the right decisions, because right now it's people sometimes just sitting in front of an axle or a whiteboard. And making those assignments and then trying to manage that complexity with, okay, it's that job. What skill do I need to have to do this? What visa or whatever other kind of legislation requirements, export control? So the world is getting more complex. The technology is getting more complex. And to really deliver excellence in these days requires that we get help and that we do a proper planning and it's seldom the quality and the way of the wrench turning. It's basically do all things count to place when required and then have that dynamic scheduling planning tool and which includes the customer, right? So sometimes you maybe do you have the technician, but you don't have a part in their region. And then you say, okay, it's not Monday, but I will be there Wednesday and you can count on me. And he says, okay. Or for scheduling, hey, I'm there. Something happened. And the customer says, I need to deploy technicians immediately. Okay, get the data and say, hey, and one week we have downtime planned anyway, and you can still go on until that week and your operation does not be at risk. Have that conversation, but you need information and data and help to have that conversation with the customer.

Sarah - 00:34:56: Yeah.

Joern - 00:34:57: And their technology plays a role. And if that in the end helps too. Have less stress and make a job. In time and no overtime and maybe have half an hour time to have a conversation with the customer, then that's a good investment in technology, but not in a way, oh, it looks great and it's kind of the sexy label, right? Hey, look what we can do. Okay, so why do we need this? And raised us what's in for the customer, what's in for the employee. Employee, if they don't like certain things, they can, there's the saying, culture eats strategy for breakfast. If they don't like certain things, they will find all means to stop it. So we were always very hand in hand when we introduced new solutions with people who are actually doing the job, right?

Sarah - 00:35:51: Yeah. And I think that's what it comes down to. I love your point about technology with purpose, right? And you mentioned at the beginning of our conversation how strongly you feel that a positive employee experience leads to a positive customer experience. And I think that's the mentality that some lack when they're not necessarily taking that part into account. I attended Field Service Europe last fall, and Marco Hugo Gutierrez from Tetra Pak did a great presentation where he talked about company performance or company financials, customer experience, and employee experience making up a triangle. And his point was, if you take any of those three out of balance, it crumbles. You have to think about every decision you're making, every strategy you're putting in place, every investment, et cetera, through the lens of all three of those factors. And I think in a lot of ways that's similar to what you're saying is it's important to keep all three things in mind when you're thinking about not only the technology piece, but how to solve this overall problem.

Joern - 00:37:04: And as it stands here, keep it simple. In service, you have to keep things simple and really keep asking the question, what does the customer need? What's important? Where should we focus? Can we look at processes and ask them, do we need to continue doing these processes like that? Or can we review it, script certain paths, be faster? And yeah, I totally agree what you just said.

Sarah - 00:37:31: Yeah, more is not always more. And the last thing I wanted to talk about in terms of the components of navigating through this challenge is how imperative the role of the service leader is in this sort of transitional phase in our industry. So thinking about how we work through the waves of this tsunami, how do you view the role of the service leader?

Joern - 00:37:57: Well, A, there is the recognition that there is an issue. And basically, in service, you can, I sometimes say, we work for yesterday because there's always like so much work that you can work 24 hours every day. So basically, acknowledge that there is this issue, put the numbers behind, and then really take time to deal with it personally. So it needs a personal commitment to address the issue with the teams, with your peers, and also with the exec teams. And that takes time. If you just duck and say, well, I'm so busy with delivering the day-to-day business. I mean, look at myself. I have 10 years to go. But also, one part of my role is to look at the new generation and say, who can do my job in the future? That means also, okay, if you need more time, then delegate to the talent who can one day maybe go into your footsteps and invest time because that's what you need to do. And then just go through the stacks of data and making a projection of potential impacts and what do you need. Because if you go to the C-suite and say, hey, we have a problem. I say, okay, we see the problem. It's obvious. Okay, so what do you need? You need to have answers. And so you need to come up with proposals. You need to work out the proposals in like really cross-functional, cross-regional way. Because if a tool spits out certain numbers, you really, again, have to invest. And so how's it looking in the US versus Germany versus Asia, right? And it's time you need to invest. So that would be my ask to all service leaders to not duck away and to address it, deal it, and act now.

Sarah - 00:39:43: Absolutely. Sarah, if you look over the next, let's say, five years, okay, what are you most excited about when you think about the landscape of service over the next five years?

Joern - 00:39:55: I think it's, again, to learn that we have to bring in a new generation on board who's then dealing with the future technology. We are just putting in place everywhere because the service you do is basically on staff which is out in the field, right? So normally when you bring in new products, it will take some time until they become more service intense. So it's the technology and the onboarding of new talent. It's the use of technology with purpose. And again, it's the responsibility of a service leader to also look at those and say, I need those solutions going forward and talk to IT and make sure that they then look jointly for solutions, that you get the budgets agreed for the next couple of years, right? So long-term thinking. And then I think what will be important to really get your grips behind how that future ecosystem look likes. And ecosystem is what are you doing? What are your partners, partner network doing? What are the customers? Where are all the IT landscape and digital landscape? How it fits? How is everything connected and draw, that's what we do right now, draw the future, that ecosystem where it's like how customers request coming in and how do you bring all that together? And that's going to be exciting.

Sarah - 00:41:27: Yeah, very much so. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing. I admire the passion that you have, not only for falling in love with the problem, but for really taking control of the role that you can play in your organization and even sharing knowledge with the industry for moving this forward. So I only wish everyone was so excited about what they can do and what's to come and really appreciate you coming on and sharing.

Joern - 00:41:55: My pleasure. And with that, your role, you having this Future of Field Service podcast is also very important because that gives us an opportunity to reach out to our peers, industry peers, and discuss those items.

Sarah - 00:42:11: We're all stronger together. So thank you for that. You can find more by visiting the home of the UNSCRIPTED podcast at futureoffieldservice.com. The podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thank you for listening.

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January 15, 2025 | 39 Mins Read

How and Why Service Leaders Need to Evolve in 2025

January 15, 2025 | 39 Mins Read

How and Why Service Leaders Need to Evolve in 2025

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Episode 299

As we gear up for all the action 2025 is sure to bring our way, host Sara Nicastro welcomes Roy Dockery, once again, for an insightful and provocative episode of Unscripted. The Director of Field Service Research at TSIA brings new perspectives backed by recent experiences to the conversation, shining a light on the critical ways in which field service leaders need to adapt and change their leadership styles this year. 

Tabling thought-provoking ideas, the two discuss the many shifts that need to take place, the first being that of a shift away from a culture of complaining with field service organizations. The conversation underscores the role of service leaders in fostering a positive workplace, emphasizing the necessity of being a “translation engine”, learning to speak the language of other departments, ensuring that their insights and challenges are understood and addressed at the executive level. They further unpack the importance of values like empathy, curiosity, proactiveness and collaboration, which can elevate the impact of field service leaders in the industry. They also consider the impact of AI and automation on the field service industry, discussing how leaders can remain relevant by focusing on strategic thinking and emotional intelligence rather than getting bogged down in tactical firefighting.

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Also, subscribe to our newsletter right here.

Episode Transcript:

Roy - 00:00:00: I think in field service, we have to kill the culture of complaining. Yeah, like I just said, because we speak a different language, we tend to get frustrated that other people don't hear us. And then because we all speak the same language amongst our management team, our directors, our field service engineers, we complain that sales doesn't get it and HR doesn't get it and these people don't get it. So within your organization, you create a culture of complaining about the fact that the rest of the organization doesn't understand you. The rest of the organization doesn't, you know. And it creates a weird disconnect within the organization. It creates a lack of like horizontal transfer. So then field service engineers don't want to go work in engineering. They don't want to transfer to customer success and like spread that DNA to the rest of the organization.

Sarah - 00:00:55: Welcome to the UNSCRIPTED Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. At this point, today's guest probably doesn't need a huge introduction. Many of you know him from his multiple roles in the space or his LinkedIn. And he's also been a guest on the podcast a number of times before. So, Mr. Roy Dockery, welcome back to the podcast.

Roy - 00:01:30: Thank you, Sarah. And Happy New Year. It's 2025. We have been doing this for a long time now.

Sarah - 00:01:35: Yes, yes, yes. Now, former, well, former military, but we don't need to go back that far. Former service leader, author of The Art of Leading, also consultant and advisor. And you have, since your last appearance on the podcast, added a new role to your repertoire. So, you are also now the director of field service research at TSIA. So, tell everyone a little bit about getting into the world of research.

Roy - 00:02:06: Yeah. So it's not something that I thought I would be doing, right? I know you and I talked about this, right? I've done podcasts, I've done content creation, role books and consulting, but I always just enjoyed being a service leader, right? So thinking about progression of a career, it's like lead more people, lead bigger teams, keep kind of moving up vertically on a ladder. And so when I transitioned earlier this year, and like you said, just started doing some consulting, I traveled to Sweden with you, which was super fun. The food was amazing. I had to contend with all the Swifties that were running around.

Sarah - 00:02:34: Yes, yes, yes. But we didn't make it to the show, which is unfortunate.

Roy - 00:02:39: We did not. But going through that, going through that time period, right? Like I said, this was doing consulting, helping people with leadership. And I really like enjoyed being able to kind of like engage with companies at a larger level and being able to impact multiple organizations. And so I don't even know if I think I've shared this with you, but so I made a video on my, like you said, I make a lot of content on LinkedIn and I made a video about the fact that, I have a passion for field service. I love the industry. And I kind of want to evangelize the industry, right? Like I really want to share across generations, the jobs that are available, the things that people can do, the economic opportunity, the experience that people are looking for. And I posted that on all of my social medias, LinkedIn, TikTok, and everything else. And back when I worked in healthcare technology, I was a member of TSIA. And several people at TSIA still follow me on LinkedIn. And one of my former, my former account executive saw my video. And then he messaged me on LinkedIn that same day. It was like, what you just described, we're actually hiring for, right? Because I'm thinking like, okay, this is something I'll just do. I can consult and kind of keep doing content. And when he sent me the job description, it was like exactly what I had just described on LinkedIn or in my video. And so I was like, well, that's not what I thought I would do. Right. I was thinking about consulting, maybe going to run another service organization. So landing on, okay, I can be in a position where I call it the intersection, right? Like I'm TSIA. The intersection of technology and then the industry. So we've got all the partners that come to our events that come to our shows, but then we have all of our members that we provide support for across different segments of the technology industry. And when you want to evangelize, right, you want to be at a busy intersection so that the message gets relayed. So I made that decision, joined back in August of last year, and it's been fun, right? I always joke with my members when I'm on the phone and I'm like, that's great. Like we just talked about a lot of problems. Now you get to go work on them and I don't have to. Because for 14 years, I was the one in the seat that had to drive it. So it's really, it's almost like, and I think most people don't, like I do counseling and mentoring and things of that nature as well. But it's like counseling for me, right? It's like counseling other leaders and executives on the challenges they're going through, some of the foundational things that they can address. And being able to do that for small companies, medium companies, and large companies, I get to impact dozens of companies a week, thousands of people a week versus one organization, one vertical, or one team. And so that's where I am and been enjoying it. We had our conference in October, got our next one coming up in May. And so it's been fun to work with our members and keep working to try to grow that out and do what's needed for the field service practice so that we keep moving forward and that we're kind of staying ahead of the curve instead of always playing catch up.

Sarah - 00:05:27: Yeah, I like the description of the intersection. I don't feel dissimilar, right, in the roles that I've played in this space. And it's nice because to your point, the work that you've done as a service leader in the different businesses you've been a part of, you had a massive impact on those organizations, right? And of course, when you speak at conferences and you do what you do in terms of sharing your knowledge on LinkedIn, you have some ability to impact other organizations. But in the role you're in now, you're able to take not only what you've learned from, your past experiences and also blend that with TSIA's expertise to help a number of people. And that's what I've always been passionate about. When you start talking to a high volume of service leaders week after week, like you really get that true sense of how common the challenges are and how you can start making those connections in a way that the change that's needed can catch on and we can move the industry forward. So.

Roy - 00:06:30: Yeah. And I was talking to somebody yesterday and it's exactly what you said. The interesting thing is when you're the field service voice within your company, you're the only field service voice within your company. So you feel crazy. You feel like John the Baptist screaming in the wilderness, right? Like, cause no one else really speaks your language. You're at the bottom of the, of like the outcome. So like you're the sales and the engineering and the projects, everything lands on you. So it's almost like you're speaking a foreign language internal to your company. But then like, I get to hear the message from all of these people. And even when we have our event, that's why field service events are so, are so popular because you get to go and hear somebody speak your language. So it's fun for me because I speak that language, but I also spent enough time in a senior executive role that I can help them speak the other languages as well. I speak finance and engineering and software support and supply chain. So I can, whatever question you have, I can help you position it in a way where you can start getting the other organizations to see the needs of field service instead of just always kind of being at the outcome in, of the decision tree and start to leverage it, influence the rest of your organization as well.

Sarah - 00:07:40: Yeah. When we have done the future field service events, like you came to in Stockholm last year, and whenever we have the opportunity to bring that community together in person, I would say the most frequent feedback I've gotten is I feel so much less alone. And it's honestly my favorite thing, right? Because, you know, that takes an amount of time. Of pressure off, it lets you know that there's a community around you that is working toward the same objective, struggling with the same challenges. And when you're able to bring people together to share their experiences and build that collective knowledge, that's what it's all about. Okay, so today we're going to talk about, we're going to combine your, leadership, expertise and your service expertise into talking about three ways service leaders should evolve in 2025. So hit me with number one.

Roy - 00:08:42: All right. So the first one's going to make some people, we're going to lose some friends. I think in field service, we have to kill the culture of complaining. Yeah, like I just said, because we speak a different language, we tend to get frustrated that other people don't hear us. And then because we all speak the same language amongst our management team, our directors, our field service engineers, we complain that sales doesn't get it and HR doesn't get it and these people don't get it. So within your organization, you create a culture of complaining about the fact that the rest of the organization doesn't understand you. The rest of the organization doesn't, you know, and it creates a weird disconnect within the organization. It creates a lack of like horizontal transfers. So then field service engineers don't want to go work in engineering. They don't want to transfer to customer success and like spread that DNA to the rest of the organization. And I think I learned that probably seven or eight years into my career when you started hearing like your complaints that you think you're just venting. You start seeing it actually become a tangible part of your organizational culture, because when someone that you've never directly spoke to before brings the same complaint that you echoed back to you, you're like, oh, this is going further than I thought it was going. And so I think it's creating like a lack of interest. I think it leads to attrition because the thing is some and I ask this question all the time when people have high attrition, right? Like who's leaving? Are your senior technicians leaving or are your new technicians leaving? And it's normally the new technicians leaving. And the reason they're leaving is because the culture of complaining. Because the people who have been there for 25 years make $90,000 a year as a technician, and they're not going anywhere, right? Because they have expertise, they have domain knowledge. But when they constantly complain to the new people, that new person gets kind of embittered, and they're like, why do I want to be here, right? So everyone's losing their one- to two-year technicians because they're being poisoned by a culture of complaining that we all complain about our senior techs and the grumpy manager, but it actually comes from us as the leaders. And because we make it seem like no one understands us, no one speaks our language, what we should do as the leaders is we have to learn everyone else's language. We've got to be the Rosetta Stone, and then we've got to take the concerns of our organization and go effectively communicate it to those teams in their language so that our team feels heard, because that's going to create a culture where people want to stay. It's going to create a culture where you develop leaders that vertically move up, but it's also going to create a culture where your people move horizontally, and now you've got field service. I call it spreading field service DNA, right? Like when I worked at Swisslog, we wound up having field service people in engineering, in the warehouse, in sales, in customer success. And so they all speak my language. So now I have someone in customer success who understands me. I have someone in sales who understands me. But if you make it, it's us against the world, which a lot of times we do. You don't get that growth, and you create an environment where people tend to leave, especially if they're new. It doesn't feel healthy, and it doesn't feel productive.

Sarah - 00:11:54: I think that's a very good point. Leaning into the, probably in many instances, valid frustrations of not feeling understood. I'm going to focus my comment more on the senior leadership in service, right? Leaning into that, you're just further ostracizing yourself and the function from the business, right? And then all of those ripple effect things you talked about. I think though, the only thing I would add to what you said is you talked about speaking the languages of the other functions and understanding how to reframe some of the challenges into terms that they will understand. I think it's just important to also, especially if you're trying to minimize or eliminate a culture of complaining, to think about not only how you translate the challenges, but the opportunities. Because even when you are presenting opportunities, if you are presenting them in the language that the other functions of the business don't understand, it's just noise. They don't see the value in it, which then fuels that frustration, right? Because the service leader is saying, I'm telling you X. So also think about how you adopt that language both to resolve some of the challenges, but also to articulate the opportunities that we know service leaders see that are relevant for the business that maybe aren't getting through because they're not being spoken about in language those people care about.

Roy - 00:13:18: Yeah, and I completely agree. And especially when you talk about, and I know you deal a lot with customer engagement, right? Like, especially when you think about the customers, because we are the ones that hear most of the things, but we bring them in our field service language. So then sales is like, I don't know what that is. And engineering is like, so like take the customer complaint and I'm going to translate it into sales. And then I'm going to translate it into finance or because it is an opportunity, right? Where if we just relay the complaint, they're going to be like, I don't know what that means. Right? But what the complaint is an opportunity for you to close the gap, deliver a different service solution. But if we just relay the complaint, then people don't know what to do. And then, like you said, it fuels the frustration. It's like, no one's listening to the customer. It's like, no, they don't understand that language. Right? So you've got to put it in terms that they understand. Like when you're developing a product, you got to give the product team an MVP, right? What's the minimal viable product. Like what's the, that's what they need. Right? And so like when you learn to speak that way and understand, speak incentives, and sales and targets in revenue, when you're talking to the sales team, a complaint does not equal revenue unless that complaint is a product that could be sold that is revenue. So I completely agree on that side that you've got to reframe opportunities as well.

Sarah - 00:14:31: All right. What's number two? All right.

Roy - 00:14:32: And I know you touch on this a little bit in your 2025 predictions, right? But it's I think you called it storytelling. But I also want to say it kind of goes into what we were just talking about a little bit. But we've got to become we've got to be that translation engine. Right. So we have to learn and most field service organizations do not report directly into the CEO. So we're kind of outside of the C-suite table. But we have to learn how to speak C-suite. So we can't just go in and say, hey, our techs are doing X, Y and Z. And we can't speak the same way that we speak to our organizations downstream. We have to because we're at the end of the value chain in most of these situations. So we've got to know how to speak to everyone upstream from us, which is project management, pre-sales activities, legal contracts. Right. The product, the marketing, like we've got to understand all of that. And so we talked about that a little bit, but that's my major second one is like I call it field service should be a Rosetta Stone. So it doesn't matter what's going on. I should be able to take a problem to the CTO, the CFO, the CEO, the COO and be able to translate it to them in a way where they can take action for what I'm saying. And they don't have to go figure out, okay, what does that mean? How does that translate? Like, no, translate it for them and deliver it to them, because we have to realize that people don't- Everyone in field service probably agree. People don't fully understand what we do.

Sarah - 00:15:59: Right.

Roy - 00:15:59: So we get frustrated by that, but it's not their responsibility to understand what we do.

Sarah - 00:16:04: Mm-hmm.

Roy - 00:16:04: Right? We have to deliver what they sell. So we have to understand what's being given to us because we have to go deliver it to the customer. But like I said, kind of to the first one, instead of complaining about that, like spend time learning to speak that language. Like I remember I spent I used to spend a lot of time with our principal engineer.

Sarah - 00:16:23: Yeah.

Roy - 00:16:23: Because he had a lot of influence on our VP of engineering. So if I could get him to understand what I was saying, then I heard my thoughts through him come out of the VP of engineering.

Sarah - 00:16:35: Mm-hmm.

Roy - 00:16:36: And I was like, oh, like as long as if I can speak his language, he can get it to leadership because he speaks better engineer than I do.

Sarah - 00:16:44: Right.

Roy - 00:16:45: At least I can communicate with him on a software level or on a hardware level and work that way. And the same thing with our my sales colleagues and other people as well.

Sarah - 00:16:53: Mm-hmm.

Roy - 00:16:53: We have to learn how to do that if we want to take advantage of opportunities and also if we want to address some of those challenges that are in front of us.

Sarah - 00:17:01: Yeah. So I think if we take that point a step further, right? So like when you're talking about working with the engineering person, because that person's close to the VP of engineering almost can be your... Go between right and yeah in a way you're building inroads right like you're being smart about taking steps to get the message where it needs to go in a way that's going to make sense I think the other part, if we think about how what you're talking about applies differently in different organizations, right? Some companies are further along in sort of understanding the role and the value of the service function and leveraging it appropriately. Others are miles, miles, miles away. And hosts are somewhere in between, right? But for the service leader who is further away, feeling really on the outside, feeling really not understood, I would urge them to start by understanding, like really understanding the core objectives of the CEO. And if you're going to learn the language, right, start with figuring out. What you can share that can help with those. Because if you want to be successful getting someone's attention and you ultimately want to build a common language with them and have them listen to you more, you need to start by talking about what's important to them, right? And the thing that is incredible about service is how much it can play a role in... Not only all of the other functions of the business, but many of the strategic objectives that people in that C-suite don't necessarily correlate service to, right? So if it's diversifying revenue, right? Maybe you have ideas in your role about different offerings you could be providing that you're sitting back rolling your eyes because no one wants to listen to, right? But if you can go to someone and say, I know that diversification of revenue is very important to you. I have an idea for how we could help with that. You might get their attention, right? If your company is highly focused on sustainability, right? There's a lot of ways that people don't necessarily think about that service can play a role in. Not only the company's targets and changing things to help from that front, but also positioning it with customers, right? So I think it's speaking the language is right. But I would just say if you're really on the outside, take it a step further and start by speaking the language around things that are most important to them. And they might not be the same as what's most important to you. But like if you start with what's most important to them, you're ultimately going to get further along.

Roy - 00:19:55: Yeah. And like you said, when you're trying to help them, and I guess the other thing I'd say as well, and I completely agree with that, it's like a lot of times you're in a role, you're a VP or a senior VP, you think your title gives you influence and it doesn't. Relationship gives you influence. And like you said, when you're trying to build that relationship, talking to them and everybody will tell you in counseling or whatever else, right? Like what is important to that person? And like, and that's, so even when I talk about like speaking their language, I'm talking about exactly what you're talking about, right? It's going like, like when I went to the principal engineer, I'm like, what are you struggling with?

Sarah - 00:20:28: Right.

Roy - 00:20:28: And he was struggling with escalations that were coming down to him. But most of those started in the field with me. No one listened. And then it got out of hand and the customer got really pissed. And then it went from the CEO to his VP to him. So like what I started doing is like before I was escalating things to my counterpart, right? Or things are getting escalated to my boss. I just started telling my team, take it to the principal engineer. Like he wants to fix it as well.

Sarah - 00:20:53: Yeah.

Roy - 00:20:54: And he can actually fix it. He's the person who knows the code. He wrote it like his blood and his DNA is in those, are in those lines. And I think that's what it is. And it was funny because the weirdest compliment that I got when I left my healthcare technology company to shift is one of our sales executives. He told me, he said, Roy, you're the most sales friendly service executive I've ever met. And it was weirdly like uncomfortable to me because I always, you know, there's always a weird tension between service and sales, but I know that I always was intentional about making sure that my team knew like it's their job to sell. They have a sales target. They've got revenue. They didn't design the product. They didn't make the product. They didn't ship the product. Stop getting mad at the salesman. If something doesn't work or if the customer overbought or if the customer underbought, like that is just their job, they're doing their job. Right. And like, let us help them be successful. If anything, let's teach them more about the equipment. Let's teach them what problems these things solve. Let's go with them. Let's send some of our technical experts on our site visits. And because at the end of the day, they want to be successful. Because the first sale is good. All the recurring sales in the referrals is better. So they don't want the customer to be unhappy because then they don't have a referral.

Sarah - 00:22:03: Right.

Roy - 00:22:04: So like we have a common interest is you want your customer to be happy. And to your point, how can I help you make the customer happy? And that's from the estimate. During the pre-sales process, during the project, at the handover, what service they buy, how we treat them during warranty. And when we make sure the customer is taken care of, then when that health care director goes to another hospital, now they want your technology over there because they were taken care of. And that just developed a good relationship between us and sales. It still got tense, right? We argued about estimates and work, but we were ultimately, we had the same goal. We want the customer to be happy, right? So that they recommend more business. And that's what we just built a healthy relationship to do so. But we had to learn to speak their language and we had to teach them some of what we were saying because they were also talking to technical people, right? So when you're talking to the VP of operations, he doesn't speak sales either. So it's helpful for you to learn from us because we make you more effective at speaking with them. So ultimately, it winds up helping everybody out. But internally, it definitely improved that relationship.

Sarah - 00:23:11: Yeah, and I think what you just said, use that common interest to create the common language, right? Like... Honestly, I mean, if more companies did that, they would be markably more successful, right? We talk about all of these silos that exist, and the customer is the common interest across all of them. The problem is they're so deeply embedded in organizations through the different language, which is reinforced by different KPIs, which is exacerbated by different use of technology. You know what I mean? Like, if we just looked more at, I think the companies that are leading the way are using the customer experience as the common interest to start creating a playbook that everyone can kind of rally around.

Roy - 00:23:57: You said one thing that I think is really good, which is the silos are based on our metrics. Everybody's just trying to attack their goals. And we make conflicting and contradictory goals within a company. Yeah. Where if I 100% just focus on my metrics, I'd be screwing half of the rest of the company. So it creates a silo just around those. But when we're all driving customer experience or retention or growth, those are the things at the high level. And so when we all speak there, it helps because, yeah, we got to be good at our individual functions, but it can't be at the risk of causing pain in another part of the business.

Sarah - 00:24:34: Right. And I think understanding that, right? Like, I mean, the fact that persists, it infuriates me. Okay. Because, whoever is at the top of those companies, like, really should be thinking about how are we working at odds with one another. Right. But it happens everywhere. Right. But going back to your point, which is being the Rosetta Stone, the more you can look through a lens of empathy and understand that the person that runs the other department that you want to punch in the face isn't really an a-hole. They're just doing the job they've been incentivized to do. Right. So.

Roy - 00:25:11: Yeah.

Sarah - 00:25:12: It's like, I think when you get that sense of frustration, it can be, it feels very personal. Right. But if you can step back and see that. They're probably not a jerk. They're just incentivized differently and focused on doing their part, right? So it can, I think, diffuse some of the emotion that exacerbates that. Culture of complaining and like just putting yourself further and further away from creators.

Roy - 00:25:39: And you said a good word, which I know you read my book. I talk about that in my book, right? Like that's empathy, right? Like it's empathy for like, I know you have sales targets. So you might oversell.

Sarah - 00:25:48: What's the common ground, right?

Roy - 00:25:49: Over promise, right? Like, all right, I get it. So I see why you did that. You aren't, and I would always tell people, no one's trying to hurt us.

Sarah - 00:25:56: Right.

Roy - 00:25:57: No one's intentionally, maliciously trying to ruin your day. It might happen, but no one's doing it on purpose. And like, once you understand that, it lets you step back a bit and then try to understand, okay, why would they do that? And then, like you said, it's because they're incentivized to do it that way. Or sometimes they just don't know. They need training. They might be new, right? Like there could be changes in process. But I mean, I've been, you and I have been in this industry for a long time. 95% of the time, it has never been malicious, right? Like there was like some jerk that got fired somewhere that was just trying to ruin everybody's life. But for the most part, people are trying to do their job. We just have natural conflicts. And when we don't talk about them, it seems personal. But it's really not, right? They're just doing their job, right? But we get so focused on our lane. Sometimes we don't pay attention to where other people are trying to merge or where there are opportunities for us to work better together. So.

Sarah - 00:26:49: Yeah. Okay, what's number three?

Roy - 00:26:53: All right, last one and quick one. Field service is a reactive organization by nature. And so what I want to say is that our teams should be firefighters. Our teams should be reactive. We as the service leaders need to be forecasters and not storm chasers. Like let our team go run once the tornado touchdown. Like let them do that. Because the funny thing, and I know for me, it took me a long time because we enjoy that. A lot of us come from that. So we tend to lean more towards getting into the tactical, getting into the problem resolution. When we actually need to sit back and into what we're talking about, we need to look across the silos. You need to go forecast and say, hold on. Our sales department just got a 30% revenue increase target. Our product team just got told that they need to make three new widgets in the next two years and say, how does that affect us? How is that going to affect my headcount? How is that going to affect my employee training? Or we're already seeing the decline. We got a bunch of people retiring. Instead of waiting and then reactively saying, hey, HR, I need a bunch of people. Let's develop your own workforce strategy and say, I need some apprentices. I need entry-level positions. I need people to start coming in and shadowing my senior employees because I don't want to lose this knowledge. And I'm guilty of it as well. I did it my whole career. I used to get excited and I used to get bored. I actually was mad. At some point, I used to tell my employees, y'all have all the fun. Like, once they were able to handle the escalations, we spoke the same language. They knew how to work with cross-functional partners. I'm like, I'm just sitting up here doing strategic planning. It's boring. It's not as fun. You need to do that for your team. You need to be the person that's at the helm saying, okay, like you said, where's the CEO trying to go? Where's the organization trying to go? Let me make sure I'm focusing. The vast majority of my time, of forecasting how that's going to impact field service. Because no one else is going to do that.

Sarah - 00:28:58: Yeah.

Roy - 00:28:58: Right? And then you're going to land at year-three of the five-year plan. And now you got to go double the size of your field service organization in six months because the product is ready.

Sarah - 00:29:09: Yeah.

Roy - 00:29:09: Right? So I think we've got to be more intentional about pulling ourselves out of our natural inclination to be technical. I mean, to be tactical and technical and into the problems. And then we've actually got to look at the company as a problem and say, what is the field service solution to the company's problem, not the customer's problem. So let your team deal with the customer's problems. And then you look at what field service problems are going to become prevalent because of our technology, because the industry is changing, because of hiring changes, because of pricing constraints, because of material restrictions, because of the availability of company vehicles. Right? Or all of this other stuff that can impact your team. Because if not, we're just kind of like a victim of circumstances. And then it puts us in a situation where we're scrambling. It becomes more expensive. It's more deconstructive in that way. But yeah, but it's pulling us out of our natural habitat. Most of us who are service executive, or at least from my network and the people that you know, we love the problems. We love the customers. We love diving into it. It energizes us. We enjoy it. But we've got to shift to what are the future problems the company is going to have with field service. And then start working on ways to resolve that. And then trusting our teams, our directors, our managers, or our other VPs, if you're a senior VP, to take care of the customers every day. Right? I feel like 80% of your job should not be interacting with customers.

Sarah - 00:30:37: Yeah.

Roy - 00:30:37: That should be 20% of your job or less. 80% of your job should be leading your team so that they're effective. And then making sure that the field service organization is ready for wherever the organization is trying to go. Because that keeps you learning. It keeps you engaged. It keeps you jumping into those silos and going to spend time with the product team. Like, what the heck are you making? And what is that going to look like? Or working with finance? And what are our targets? And being able to plan that way. And so I think that's the other thing that we've got to do. And it's got to become a normal rhythm for us to test that. Right? And if we're drifting too much into the tactical, and if we're spending too much time troubleshooting and solving problems, we've got to pull ourselves up. Because while we're that deep down, something's being missed. That's the strategic level that we're going to have to respond to later. That's going to cause us a lot of pain and frustration.

Sarah - 00:31:26: So you know me well enough to know I would never weave AI into a conversation unless it was genuine, but... Here is what listening to you talk about that third point just made me think. A leader who is not putting ample time, effort, energy into being strategic and is not pushing themselves to get to a level of emotional intelligence that they can adeptly communicate across silos of the business.

Roy - 00:32:00: Yeah.

Sarah - 00:32:01: Those are the leaders that people think about when they think about AI replacing jobs. Because you're not doing, I mean, I'm just saying right now, like the big conversation around AI, is it going to take my job? How many jobs is it going to take? I just saw a statistic that came out this morning that said the World Economic Forum showed that 41%% of employers intend to downsize their workforce. Through AI automation, I think by 2030, right? So my point is the firefighting part is the part where technology and automation can help the most. I have never felt it can help entirely in field service. I never will, right? Like to me, that's just not feasible. But my point is, if you stay stuck in the tactical, if you stay complaining, if you stay unwilling or unable to understand and speak to the challenges across the organization and the company's strategic priorities, like you will very quickly work yourself out of a job because you're not then doing anything that is centered in the skill sets that are going to be most in demand in the next phases of the business.

Roy - 00:33:19: I completely agree. And one of the reasons, right? AI is good. And I mean, this is all going to get better, right? You got agentic AI and all this stuff that's coming on GenAI, but AI is good at answering questions based on unstructured and structured data now. What AI isn't good at is asking questions that no one's asking, right? So in that form, when I talk about like, when you pivot away from, like you understand this, you know what technically needs to be done. So what you're talking about being easily replaced is what a lot of us as executives have done is we have the knowledge of what points need to be connected to be successful. But you could also look at historical data and know the same thing. So you know exactly who to call to get the right answer. So does your phone records. So does the service ticket history. But like, it's all in your brain. So like, it's an easy neurological path that you can just, you can get there. So when, if all we're doing is coaching the team, if all we're doing is directing the players on the board, that's just like nobody can beat AI at chess right now. It's better than you, right? Because it's taking more things and more signals into consideration. But AI can't, can't go to the, right? Like can't go ask the questions to the finance department or the product team about something that doesn't exist yet. Right? The product isn't here. There's no data on the product. The product is a thought. It's an idea. It's an alpha. It's in beta. That's where you should be spending your time as a leader. Because to your point, if I'm in the present, AI is going to become better at making decisions on present information than you are. Right? So like, you've got to be in the future a bit in helping guide that navigation. And asking the right questions. Because to your point, until things that operate 10 fingers extremely precisely. At a very cheap cost, field service isn't going anywhere, right? Like you still need people to fix things and climb ladders and go under houses and climb. Like that's still a very expensive robot at this point. And we're not at that point in society. But yeah, just moving the pieces around on the chessboard and knowing tactically the best person to sit in here, the best person to sit in there, like AI can do that now. So we've got to be better at asking the questions about the things that don't exist yet, right? We've got to be more creative. We've got to be more future focused. But I agree. And like you said, and that's why we've seen a lot of kind of stale outs and a lot of organizational shifts within field service where a lot of VP roles are eliminated. A lot of things are being shuffled around because I think a lot of us were tactical for so long that the organizations didn't see us as like a future forward thinking asset, right? So when they do a reorg or they got to look at a cost structure, they're like, well, like the pieces can move themselves on the board, at this point, and that was always a question for me when I was an executive, like, does my team need me?

Sarah - 00:36:07: Right.

Roy - 00:36:08: Right. And if they don't need me, I should go because I'm not adding value, right? Like if they don't need to tell me to move around or what to do, if they've been taught, if they lead well, then I don't need to be here, right? And like you said, in both of my transitions, that's why I made my transition. My team didn't need me anymore. Like they were good. They were just as good at doing what I was doing as I was. So I'm like, let me go do something else and have an opportunity to do something forward thinking in advance, but.

Sarah - 00:36:34: I think what is even scarier than becoming irrelevant because you stay stuck in the tactical as a leader, right, is really, I mean, it comes down to like bringing the three points you made all together, which is having the good ideas about the future and the questions that would get you there. But being so frustrated that you do nothing more than bitch about it. Or being so unable to translate your ideas or your questions into the language of others.

Roy - 00:37:10: Yeah.

Sarah - 00:37:10: That like to me, that's a worse fate, right? Because I think a lot of going back to your advice, I think there's a fair amount of service leaders that are in that boat. They're not necessarily incapable or unwilling of being more strategic. They just feel like it's a dead end for them. You know what I mean? And it's because they need to do more of what you told them to do today.

Roy - 00:37:37: Yeah, and it's funny. I love the way that you structured it, right? Because like you said, one of the reasons we have a culture of complaining is because we haven't learned to speak the other languages. And like, because we can't speak the other languages, it's hard for us to help us articulate, right? Like you're on the Titanic and you can see the ice, but the people who are steering the ship are too far away from you. Like they can't hear you. So like you see the problem, but you can't get the message there quick enough or you can't articulate it in a way where they can take action. And then you watch the ship crash and you're like, I knew it was going to crash. So now you're complaining and it's like that situation reinforces it. So I think I do. I love the way you tied it together when I think it's all relevant. Like once you learn to articulate and if you're frustrated, you probably really got to check your own heart. And are you frustrated because people don't listen? Or are you frustrated that they don't understand you? Because if they don't understand you, which means they can't take any action, like you said, that's emotional intelligence. Slow down a bit and then try again, right? Like if I say something, and your reaction is completely different than what I would expect, I shouldn't assume that you're a jerk. I should assume you didn't understand me.

Sarah - 00:38:46: Right.

Roy - 00:38:47: Right. I know you travel internationally a lot. You got the world tour for Future of Field Service. But like when you're in a different country and you say something to somebody and they just give you that weird look, you look around like, yeah, I don't think they speak English. Right. You're not like, you don't get rude. Right. You're just like, oh, they don't understand me.

Sarah - 00:39:02: Right.

Roy - 00:39:03: Like we don't do that in when we think we all speak the same language. Right. Like you just assume that person is ignoring us or disregarding us. And like you said, that's emotional intelligence. And like I said before, assume it's not malicious. Assume the best of intentions. And if somebody doesn't get it, just find another way to say it. Right. That helps with the relationship and it minimizes the frustration. And you'll stop complaining when people hear you and when you see action being taken and your future ideas are being incorporated into strategic planning or what we're doing for the next year. Because when you sit in a room and you pour your heart out, about what you want for your team, and then you don't see any of it on the list of plans, then what, like you said, you stop talking. Well, they didn't take my advice last year. So like, well, I'm going to keep talking. I'm like, but then you're doing your team a disservice as well. So like if I, and you know, and you know the origin of my leadership style is love. If I genuinely love my employees, I'm going to keep advocating on their behalf, whether somebody takes action or not. It's my responsibility to keep speaking until somebody gets it.

Sarah - 00:40:05: Yeah.

Roy - 00:40:06: And if I have to change my language so that I can, you know, bring that stuff to you, then I just need to, I need to take the time out, pause, get over myself a bit and then go do it. But it's definitely connected. And I like the way you connected those together.

Sarah - 00:40:19: I'm going to make one more connection. You said at the beginning when you were talking about joining TSIA that you said that you started talking about how you're passionate about evangelizing field service. And it's interesting. It's like a if you know, you know thing, right? Like only people in it understand how it makes you passionate. And it's weird. I mean, I never saw myself having a career in this space. But I mean, I can't tell you how many people I met that feel the exact same way about it. And I just was thinking as you were saying that there are people in the situation you just described where you say something, they didn't get it. You jump to they don't care. Like, yeah, forget it. Right. Some people are in that situation because of ego. But I think a lot of people in service, it's because you're passionate. But you can't let your passion prevent you from making progress. I'm speaking from experience. My passion gets in my way a lot. And so to your point, like that passion is good, but it has to be channeled appropriately. And passion can very easily become a force that ostracizes you. Because when you feel like people aren't getting it, like you will step back or you will find a way around or you will whatever, right? And that passion is good, but channel that passion. Use the opportunity to learn how to speak different language to channel that passion in a way that will resonate with other people. Because then when you start to see their brains clicking and you start to make some progress, you're going to realize that in some cases at least it wasn't that they don't care or they weren't listening. It was just that they really didn't get where you're coming from.

Roy - 00:41:57: And one thing I love about what you said and you had a little alliteration there with your peas as well. But I think the other thing is that we assume we kind of prioritize our passion as well. Service in the outcomes and the people in the fields and the customers. I wasn't passionate about bill collection and none of us would have had a job if somebody wasn't passionate about making sure we got paid. So like when you get that escalation from the collections department, that's like, why hasn't this person paid this invoice? You're like, hey, calm down. It's not that serious. So it's like I think, like you said, while we're empathetic and we all have an understanding that we all have different passions, they're not deficient. They're just different. And sometimes they do compete. But there's nothing wrong with that. Right. Because competition also drives creativity and gets us to be better at what we're doing. But I think that and in service, we're service oriented people like that's why we're in there. So when we feel like other people aren't aren't leaning in to serve or to help because that's what we're passionate about. You think that there's something wrong with them. But I don't want an engineer to be service oriented. I want an engineer to be engineering and innovation and creation oriented. Right. Like that's what I need them to do. So it's like all of us together will work effectively. But we know one person should think that they're part of the mission or kind of their part of the body is more important than the other. So it's like you might be the hands. Right. But like somebody else is the mouth. You don't want the service organization doing all the marketing.

Sarah - 00:43:42: Mm-hmm.

Roy - 00:43:43: Like, you don't. So it's like, so I think that's the balance. But I absolutely agree that there's normally a conflict of passion.

Sarah - 00:43:50: Mm-hmm.

Roy - 00:43:51: But it's like, no, like, just you're passionate about something that they're not. So instead of just keep pouring out your opinion, like, kind of figure out what they're passionate about.

Sarah - 00:44:00: Right.

Roy - 00:44:00: And that'll also help you understand. Like, we talked about that Rosetta Stone. It helps you understand their language. And you have children, right? You love to travel. Like, you can, there are even personal things that you can find to connect people to that completely change the way that they're communicating.

Sarah - 00:44:14: Right.

Roy - 00:44:15: Right? And then, like, you can tap into some of those passions as well. But no, I think that was a great point.

Sarah - 00:44:19: Yeah, I was just thinking, like, how big of a part of empathy curiosity is. Like, just take a pause before you react and just think about being curious about where another person is coming from or what do they care about or, you know what I mean? Like. Yeah. It's a very important part of being able to build that skill. Well, we said we were going to do a short episode and we failed, but I think ultimately we succeeded. So thank you for coming back yet again to the pod and sharing your insights and your wisdom. Is there anything you have going on that you want to tell people about?

Roy - 00:44:58: Yeah, I mean, the one thing, like you said, you mentioned the book, and I think the last one was on a podcast in February. So I have heard a lot when it comes to leadership development. A lot of companies aren't, like they talk about it. There might be a speaker at a kickoff and then there's nothing really more. So I've actually been working with an organization to build like a learning module for leadership development with an organization called Tinker Time Labs. That's going to be based off of my book. So one thing people will start seeing me promote this year is an actual like learning module that you can pull into your LMS system. That'll walk people through like almost a year long program on leadership development that talks about empathy, that talks about authenticity and all the things that you and I shared. I know you wrote an article about the book as well. So because I'm trying to focus on, like you said, like broader impact and evangelism. I think the biggest way for me to help leaders is to try to help. Drive like a more effective leadership culture where people can participate, go through. There's like questions and scenarios and things that you can go through. And we pulled in like information and leadership tips from different sources as well. So that'll be largely outside of my primary role. What I'll be doing this year is kind of helping Tinker Time Lab push that out there. And then they'll be doing some facilitation and stuff with the book as well. So it's like, I got to write the book and then somebody else gets to go, gets to promote it and do it. But yeah, that'll be a learning module that companies can actually buy. And we'll just sell it based on company size. It won't be a subscription, like download it and then use it for the benefit. Because for me, and you know, I have a passion about people being effective leaders. So I don't even want to make like ongoing costs or limitations. So people will be able to download it. It'll be in your LMS and then you can use it for your leadership cohorts or your entire organization. So that's the main thing. People can follow me on LinkedIn. I share information there and on my other social media platforms. But that's it. Just follow me on LinkedIn. I normally share what I'm doing and we'll be doing some stuff to kind of impact businesses at a higher level in 2025. That sounds so weird. It's already 2025.

Sarah - 00:46:54: I know. You did miss one important plug, which is if you truly can't get enough of Roy and I, Roy has asked me here to be a guest on a state of service webinar. So TSIA's state of service webinar, looking at what happened in 2024, what's coming up in 2025, and that is taking place on January 22nd.

Roy - 00:47:21: Yeah, January 22nd at 2 PM.

Sarah - 00:47:23: Eastern. Yes.

Roy - 00:47:25: They can register on TSIA on the portal. And then even if they miss it, the webinars are normally available on our portal afterwards. If they can't watch it live, they just have to register for a portal account on TSIA. But you can register for the portal for free. And you can see other articles and stuff as well. So we've got survey insights on supply chain and logistics. There's going to be some insights coming out. We just finished the talent management survey in December. So that'll be getting released right before the webinar as well. But yeah, so they can set up a free account on the portal and then they'll see the webinars available. That webinar and for field service and there's other ones for customer success, education services, managed services, professional services and support services as well.

Sarah - 00:48:05: Very cool. All right. So check it out and join us on the 22nd. Roy Dockery, thank you so much for coming back. I appreciate you. You can find more of Roy and I's podcasts and all sorts of other things by visiting us at futureoffieldservice.com. The podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. And as always, thank you for listening.

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January 8, 2025 | 13 Mins Read

My 2025 Service (Non)Predictions

January 8, 2025 | 13 Mins Read

My 2025 Service (Non)Predictions

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Episode 298

While host Sarah Nicastro doesn’t believe anyone can truly predict the future, in this episode of the Unscripted Podcast, she shares what she expects 2025 will bring based on interactions with the Future of Field Service community and featuring insights from the Stand Out Service Trends report.

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Episode Transcript:

[00:00:00] Sarah:  The reason that there are not any excuses not to is that the options for offering flexibility are enabled by today's technologies and just a bit of creativity, a bit of getting willing to move beyond the way that it's always worked and to reimagine a bit what service delivery could look like in a world where you are offering your employees some of that flexibility. So if we consider how the incorporation of more self service change what's possible, we start to see how coming up with different scenarios that can offer more flexibility to our workforce is feasible.

Welcome to the Unscripted podcast. I'm your host, Sara Nicastro. The day has come for my 2025 service predictions, or as I'm going to refer to them today, my non predictions. The reason I say that is every January, all different types of content creators, analysts, journalists, etcetera are asked to share or decide to share predictions for the coming year. I've always found this challenging because the reality is none of us can predict the future. No one knows what is around the corner, and so it's really hard to feel a sense of confidence or conviction in stating with certainty what is to come in the year ahead. That being said, it is something that I'm asked often. And while I don't necessarily feel any of us can predict the future, There are some different themes or trends that, in my opinion, we can expect to see in 2025 based on the conversations that I have on this podcast on a weekly basis, based on the interactions I have the opportunity to have with people within the future of field service community, the interactions that I have with different IFS customers who are on their journey to service transformation and service optimization. And, of course, last year, we had the 1st ever standout fifty leadership award and did a standout service trends report with those leaders in which we gathered some insights that I'll also reference today as I go through my non predictions.

So I have a few to share, and the first that I want to start with here is organizations will begin to offer the frontline workforce greater flexibility. Here's why I think this will happen. It has to. We know that flexibility and better work-life balance is incredibly important to today's talent, And this is an area where for a long time and for a lot of different reasons, service organizations have sort of dismissed it as simply not possible, and that has changed. So in the standout service trends report, 29% of respondents report that they already are allowing flexible schedules, remote work options, or other work-life balance initiatives as part of an employee engagement focus. Now if you didn't read the standout service trends report or haven't heard me talk through some of the findings on the podcast before, I do want to mention that the standout fifty was fifty leaders. They were nominated by peers and colleagues and folks within the industry based on the impact that they're making, but there's no way that we can say that necessarily a sample size of 50 is representative of the whole. Right? So in my mind, if these folks were folks that were nominated for their impact, we could deduce from that that they, as leaders, and possibly the organizations that they're a part of, are on the better side or further alongside of thinking and best practices when it comes to service. That may or may not be true, but my point here is saying that that's 29% of those 50 leaders, not of all of service by any means. But 29% of the standout service leaders who participated in that report are already offering some sort of flexibility, and I think that is tremendous. There really though is  no excuse for others not to at this point. And that's why I think in 2025, we're going to see more and more of this. The reason that there are not any excuses not to is that the options for offering excuses not to is that the options for offering flexibility are enabled by today's technologies and just a bit of creativity, a bit of getting willing to move beyond the way that it's always worked and to reimagine a bit what service delivery could look like in a world where you are offering your employees some of that flexibility. So if we consider how the incorporation of more self-service and remote service change what's possible, we start to see how coming up with different scenarios that can offer more flexibility to our workforce is feasible. In the standout service trends report, 15% of respondents said that they have extensive self-service options in place and state that customers are responding well to those, and 52% currently have some self-service capabilities in place and are focused on expanding those. 33% of respondents have transitioned a significant portion of service delivery to be remote, and another 30% are in the midst of transitioning a portion of service delivery to be remote. So these and other changes give companies options for flexibility that would have been nearly impossible to achieve not too very long ago.

I do believe companies that seize this opportunity are on the cutting edge of looking at things differently and leveraging today's tools to reimagine what's possible for the frontline workforce will have a significant advantage in the talent war. Now this should go without saying, but organizations should be offering their workforce a lot more than just flexibility. That's certainly not the only thing that is important to talent. It isn't the only foundational pillar of employee engagement. This is simply an element that is desired by today's workforce that has long been dismissed as impossible in the service industry that is now entirely feasible. So that's why I think in 2025, we're going to see a lot more offering of flexibility, and it will be really interesting to see some of the different shapes that takes. That could be days that they work from home, that could be rotating schedules, it could be allowing them the opportunity to pick their start and end times for the day, etcetera. There's a number of different shapes that this can take and that's where getting creative and understanding what's important to your workforce, understanding the constrictions of how you deliver service to your customers today and what could change in that regard to make new things possible, all of those things come into play, but they deduce down to the ability to offer more flexibility to the workforce.

So that's number 1. Number 2, customer expectations will exploit service organization complacency. So it is incredibly challenging to keep pace with what customers want, but it is the name of the game. For a long time in this space, we've been talking about consumerization and the influence of how the experiences that we can receive in our personal lives bleed over to what we expect from companies that we do business with in all areas of our lives. And so I believe that many service organizations are soon going to face the consequence of sitting pretty or maintaining the status quo when they could have or should have been innovating.

One of the data points from the standout service trends report that drove this home for me is that respondents shared that when asked what's most important to customers, wanting peace of mind or guaranteed uptime slash performance was 2nd on the list. So it's the 2nd most important thing to the respondents' customer base. Yet only 26% of respondents are offering outcomes based services, and, perhaps more importantly, 26% still offer only reactive or transactional break-fix service. So that shows this divide between what's important to customers and where these organizations are in terms of evolving their service offerings to provide that peace of mind that we know is important. So what was once effective at setting service apart has, in many instances, become table stakes. We've talked a lot in the past about soft skills, prompt response, high degree of first-time fix. There are a number of companies who are still struggling to shore up those strengths, and those companies are falling behind the organizations who have shifted to modernizing their service value proposition along with modernizing service delivery itself. So I think that this is the way the pace at which customer expectations are evolving is really going to magnify the gap that exists between service organizations who have taken the initiative to be innovative, to keep on top of trends, to keep pace with change, to understand what's important to their customers, and to continue to evolve their operations and their offerings accordingly and those who have sort of just stayed complacent and maintained the status quo. This evolution in progress or foreshadowing of a reckoning, if you will, is also suggested by the wide range of KPIs that are used to measure service success today. When we asked respondents in the standout service trends report how they measure performance of their service teams. Some mentioned things like CSAT and NPS, but there were quite a few who still solely rely on metrics like productivity, efficiency, and utilization, which, don't get me wrong, are quite important, but when used in a vacuum, can be at odds with evolving an operation beyond that transactional service mentality. So the lesson here is that customer-centered innovation is essential, whether that means the development of new service offerings, an evolution of service delivery, incorporation of more sophisticated technology to allow things like greater personalization or more extensive information to your customers, or more than likely a combination of all of these things. And measuring the performance of your workforce based on the success factors of today's business, not yesteryear's, is a must. So I think this reckoning is something that we'll see quite a bit of in 2025.

Number 3, organizations will be forced to reconcile technology debt and invest in more modern service management. So when we think about what is possible in terms of customer-centric innovation or we think about what's possible in terms of really changing the employee value proposition, both things should contribute to companies' overall performance in a positive way. When we think about what's possible, so many of the areas of opportunity rely on technological innovation. And so the importance of a strong, scalable, sophisticated digital foundation in today's service landscape can't be overstated. However, in the standout service trends report, 20% of respondents said that their core service management platform is not ideal and are currently evaluating or implementing an alternative, and 59% more reported that their service management platform is capable, but not ideal for the future state of their operations. Only 15% reported that they have a fully functioning and future-ready service management system in place, and 50% stated that less than 10% of field service tasks are automated. This shows not only the opportunity, but the directive to modernize core systems in order to remain relevant, both to your customers and to your employees. The good news is, supporting why I think we'll see a lot of this investment in new core systems and replacement of legacy systems in 2025, is that respondents also indicated that for 2025, nearly half of respondents are set to bolster their technology investments. 35% expect a moderate increase in their technology budget, and 12% expect a significant increase. 47% remain expect their technology budget to remain flat, and 6% expect a nominal decrease. So the stage is set here based on the absolute imperative nature of having that capable, scalable solution in place that not only meets the really strong demand of today's business, but sets you up for success in the future.

It's so crucial to businesses to be successful, and it's the time has come to get rid of what's not working, to get rid of what can't meet the needs of where you need to go, and put in place the solutions that can. So building off of that, certainly, over the last few years, everyone's predictions have included AI in some way, shape, or form. And my next non prediction, if you will, is that I believe we will witness some major service-centered AI successes, but also the 1st major missteps. So the AI buzz that has had the industry in a stronghold over the last couple of years is warranted. It is. I've said before, I actually shared in my predictions last year that the buzz started as buzz and companies started taking action, and the intelligence the AI can bring to an organization is the next significant milestone in digital transformation or in the digital journey. There are so many opportunities, sometimes so many that it can be quite overwhelming, but it's something that we have to be very pragmatic about. So all of the buzz is something that the service trends report showed that the standout leaders also believe in.

62% of respondents are currently using AI in their operations, and they shared some examples such as chatbots, triage and tech support, service order summaries, document and data search, guided troubleshooting, optimized scheduling, generating service tickets from emails, and much more. Further, 47% state that AI is their next area of focus in terms of technology investment, and 76% believe advanced AI will be critical for remaining competitive in field service. That being said, the current and future use of AI is not without concern. The top 3 concerns that respondents shared are accuracy and bias with 33%, the need to master the basics first, 23%, and not having the data at the ready to support the use of AI, 19%. So personally, I think it's positive that leaders were very open and upfront about the concerns that they have because we will see more missteps by those who are just racing and rushing into expanding their AI use than we will those who do have some concerns and are doing their due diligence and making sure that they're being pragmatic in their approach. So here's what I think will happen in 2025. I anticipate that we'll see the buzz that has moved to action morph into some really compelling success stories. There are so many ways that AI in different forms can be incredibly useful to service organizations, and again, in a way that can really bring value to not only the business, but the customer experience and the employee experience.

If you want to take a deeper dive into some of the the different ways that AI will unfold in service in 2025, you should check out the predictions blog from my colleague, Mark Brewer, who is the vice president for service industry at IFS. You can find that at blog.ifs.com. But he explores in detail some of the cool ways that he believes AI will evolve in service this year. And, personally, I'm very excited to start to see at conferences and on the podcast, in discussions, some of these real-world success stories. And not just real-world success stories on a small scale, but starting to see real-world success stories from companies that are doing quite sophisticated things and driving real business value by doing so. But while I'm excited to see how companies put AI to work for their businesses, for their customers, for their employees, I also fully expect that we will inevitably really see some major missteps, ones that could be quite significant. If I were to get out my crystal ball, I would anticipate everything from failing to see AI as a tool that can augment the work of talented people and instead trying to replace them with technology to the detriment of the customer experience, or rushing into AI use that isn't rooted in real business case or supported by capable technology. There are some ways here that organizations can go really, really wrong if they aren't keeping in mind the ethical implications, the customer experience implications, and being really smart about how they take this incredibly valuable tool and put it to the best use for their organization. So I'm not concerned, to be clear, about the fail fast type of mistakes that are part of any innovative project, but more so the big kahuna, what were you thinking type missteps that come from believing that there's some sort of loophole away from the realities and limitations of the hard work that is involved in getting AI right. So be smart about tying your investment and evolution and the technology to real business cases, and be smart about the partners that you choose to work with and the way you communicate those changes to your workforce and to your customers.

And my final non prediction is more so a call to action, which is service leaders must get better at storytelling. At the Service Council Symposium last fall and in their own 2025 predictions, John Carroll of the Service Council spoke about the rising existential threat to service leaders. Essentially, the risk that exists for service not to have a spot in strategic decision-making at the company to have a for organizations to miss the full view of what service and the wealth of insights a service function has mean to the business and instead be dismissed or deprioritized. So this existential threat would be massively unfortunate to see unfold, and my hope is we don't see that happen at all. As we know, service is far more than a means to meeting customer needs. It's really a treasure trove of so, so much more. But to avoid this potential reality, service leaders have to become better storytellers. Many service leaders grew up from being technicians themselves, and not all have become comfortable or adept at articulating and influencing, but that is exactly what is needed. Service leaders need to use storytelling to translate the needs of and opportunities within the customer base to terminology that screams business value and shifts the perception of them and their teams from that of a necessary evil to a powerhouse of competitive differentiation and potential innovation. Deep diving into being sure you understand all the ways in which service is interconnected with your company's financial objectives, strategic vision, sustainability initiatives, and technological road map is a great start. But using storytelling to explain this interconnectedness in a language that will resonate with your company's C-level executives is a must. So let's work on that in 2025.

And those, my friends, are my 2025 nonpredictions. I would love to hear your thoughts on anything that I've shared here. I would also love to hear your thoughts on what you think 2025 will bring. So if you have any insight for me, please feel free to reach out through email or on LinkedIn. And next week, I look forward to our 3 hundredth episode. That's crazy and hard to believe. Until then, you can find more by visiting us at futureoffieldservice.com. The unscripted podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can find more at IFS.com.

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