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February 2, 2022 | 25 Mins Read

Some Days the Dragon Wins: Perseverance in Challenging Times

February 2, 2022 | 25 Mins Read

Some Days the Dragon Wins: Perseverance in Challenging Times

Sarah welcomes Max James, an Air Force Academy graduate, pilot shot down twice in Vietnam, who became a Fortune 500 entrepreneur and original founder and CEO of billion-dollar American Kiosk Management. Max shares some lessons learned about resilience that he’s recently shared in his book “The Harder I Fall, The Higher I Bounce.”

Sarah Nicastro: Welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today, we are going to be talking about perseverance in challenging times, and I'm excited to have with us today Max James. Max is an Air Force Academy graduate pilot. He was shot down twice in Vietnam and has quite a journey he's going to share with us. He later became the founder and CEO of American Kiosk Management, a multi-billion dollar global presence in North America, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, and has had quite the journey. He recently published a book called The Harder I Fall, The Higher I Bounce. So, Max, welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast. Thanks for being here.

Max James: Thank you very much.

Sarah Nicastro: So that was a brief introduction. Before we get into some of the content we have planned today, tell our listeners a little bit more about yourself.

Max James: Okay. Well, it's a long journey, one full of a lot of luck, both bad and good, I might add. But, yeah, my dad was a sharecropper back in West Tennessee, and I grew up following two gray mules in the fields. Finally, my dad said, "I don't think you like the farm, why don't you get a job in town," which I did. Then I was the administrative assistant to a congressman when I was 17 years old in Washington. From there, I went to the Air Force Academy for four years, graduating in 1964, so that gives away my age, I suppose, and went to the pilot training. My class was either lucky or unlucky depending on your perception. But we graduated, went to pilot training, and went to war. I flew with the best mission you could possibly have in any war of any type, and that was to Air Rescue. Our job was to rescue fighter pilots when they were shot down in North Vietnam or Laos.

Max James: Came back and was a combat instructor pilot, left the Air Force, and went to Stanford, picked up an MBA, left there and went to work for the world's richest man, which was... For an old Southern boy, that was tall cotton, working and traveling the world with him, principally in real estate but also in movies investments. From there, I got that entrepreneurial itch, and I left the Bay Area, San Francisco, Bay Area, moved up to Sacramento to be hopefully a bigger fish in a smaller pond, and it worked out well. I then ran a couple of companies that I started up, resigned from those, sold them, and became one of the executive vice presidents of Days Inns of America when we were the sixth largest lodging chain in the world. My responsibility was to build, own, and operate hotels in California and Nevada.

Max James: That's I did for years, and the entrepreneurial bug got me again, and I left on a series of wildly failing and wildly successful entrepreneur ventures, ending up principally, as Fortune called me, the king of kiosk, opening about 1200 locations in those areas, those countries that you mentioned. We built that company up to a billion, 800 million in about 14 years. So I ended up selling the company with another that I was a distributor of, to Nestle, and Jack Canfield convinced me that since I'd been telling these wild stories all my life and people saying, "You ought to write a book, you ought to write a book"... So I did, and it took me a little longer than I thought it would take me, but it was enjoyable to look back down memory row and try to share the principles in each of the stories that either led to failure or led to success.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Max James: That's it.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. That's great. That's a really good synopsis of what I'm sure has been quite a wild ride. So good. Thank you. All right. So having had a chance to look through the book, there's a couple of themes that stand out to me in your content that I want to discuss on today's podcast that I think will be relevant to our audience. So that first is around perseverance, right? That has been a top of mind term, certainly, for the past two years, right, and something that I think our audience, both from a personal perspective as leaders and then from an organizational perspective, are thinking about what it takes and how to persevere. So can you share some of your thoughts on perseverance, both personally and then from the business perspective, so as an individual and as a business?

Max James: Yeah, sure. As an individual, I think the mother of perseverance is survival. You just have to have grit. You've got to get up. When you get knocked down five times, get up six, I think, is the old expression. So it was survival in many cases. Failures often were very painful. It's not fun to have a business fail that you're involved in or running or own. So it's getting over that painful emotion, a set of emotions, really, and the result. I've never had to file bankruptcy, but I've come close a few times. I've relied on friends sometimes to bail me out, certainly. I've relied on contacts, business contacts, mentors to help me get through. In fact, an accountant, a classmate of mine from Stanford once, we went into talk to a bankruptcy attorney because I thought it was time for me to file bankruptcy. The accountant said, "No, no, I don't think so, Max. I don't think that's going to be necessary, but I'll take it to the attorney." So the attorney went through it, and he said, "Okay, here's what I'm going to need. I need $5,000 deposit up front." I reply with, "If I had $5,000, I wouldn't be here."

Max James: So, we did not file bankruptcy, but here's the story my accountant told me that I've never forgotten. He said, "Max, just get out on your hands and knees, picture yourself, and put a peanut on the floor in front of you and just push that peanut across the floor, trying to get to the other side, and every once in a while, just turn around and look behind you and see the success that you've made and then go down and push that peanut some more." Sure enough, I got bruised knees and a bloody nose from pushing across the carpet, but it worked, and so that stuck with me forever. Perseverance on a personal level, you just have to keep trying. You have to have a long-term goal, I think, Sarah, one that you want to strive for, and you're going to have ups and downs, but the long-term goal is important. But getting there requires short-term goals, day to day, moment to moment, pushing the peanut across the floor.

Max James: So perseverance for me on a personal level is survival. On a business level, it's those short-term goals to get through day by day by day by day and then the long-term goal, knowing where it is exactly that you want to go. You have to have a plan B and a plan C. You have to be adaptable to the circumstances that you deal with on a day to day, year to year basis. There was never been a major battle won in war that went as planned, not a single one, and that comes from military history classes. So the battle's going to change, and you have to be ready. Sometimes, it's plan B, and I don't subscribe to the saying that says, "There is no plan B if this doesn't work." I don't believe that. I think you have to be adaptable.

Sarah Nicastro: Always have a contingency plan, right?

Max James: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Sarah Nicastro: But don't move on to it too soon, right? I mean, I guess that's the balance, right? You need to always have that, but you can't give up quickly or easily. I think that's the name of the game. So, in your book, you talk about a cartoon that says, "Some days, the dragon wins," okay?

Max James: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: So tell me what that means to you and how that relates to perseverance.

Max James: Yeah. I wish I had a copy of it. I could show you right now. But it shows the knight, and the helmet is all beat up and the chest plates and the armor on his arms, and the big long sphere that he uses to joust with is broken, but he's on his feet, and he's walking away, and the horse that he rode on is still upright, and the cartoon says, "Someday, the dragon wins." Okay, that's true. There are going to be tons of days, whether it's a contract or a sale or a distributorship or whatever, that's not going to work. It's going to fail, and it hurts like the devil when you lose those, particularly if you've been working on it for a long time.

Max James: A plan B or adaptability says, "So now what do we do?" Well, we've talked about this before, and here's the way. We're going to need to try again for the same goal, or we're going to have to shift our goal a little bit and move from this product line to that product line and use the same business principles that we've always used. But, some days, the dragon wins, and you just have to get up. As the old saying goes, you get bucked off the horse, like I did many times when I was a kid, my dad would insist that I get back up on that horse.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. I like that saying because I think that it applies to a lot of different areas of business, of life, right?

Max James: Sure.

Sarah Nicastro: I think that, in the challenging times we've had over the past two years, sometimes... The dragon can be different things, I guess, is the point, right? The dragon can be your mood or your mental health. The dragon can be, like you said, a big deal you're losing. The dragon can be an initiative that you're trying to get off the ground that fails. It can be a lot of different things, but you have to remember that the dragon will win some days. They're not going to win every day, right? I guess that's what you have to use as the motivation to get up and try again the next day.

Max James: So you take your hits, lick your wounds, live to fight another day, and some days you just have to pay the piper.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So the next area I want to talk about, Max, is leadership. You say in your book that being a good leader of others begins with being able to lead yourself through hard times. So tell us a little bit more what you mean by that, and maybe share an example if you can.

Max James: Sure, you bet. Here would be a good example, and then we'll spin off with that. I was a pilot flying rescue helicopters, and I had trained hard. I had studied hard. I had practiced flying that helicopter under stressful situations. So I was preparing to lead the crew that I had on that chopper. The pilot gets shot down in Vietnam, North Vietnam, and the crew and you and the helicopter are going in to see if you can rescue and bring that guy home to his family and to a full life hopefully. When it comes time to make the decision to fly into the ground fire, whether it be SAMs, MiGs, or other ground fire, you've got a crew, and you're going to make the decision as to whether to risk not only the plane but a crew of four to save one.

Max James: So here is a situation where you learn to lead yourself. It's going to be my decision. I can't just always take a vote of the board or take a vote. Sometimes, you just have to charge forward. There's a block saying that speaks to an overly abundant ego, and it says, "I may be wrong, but I doubt it." Sometimes, you just have to rely on yourself, and if you haven't been in stressful situations where you had to make a decision, where you had to lead, then you're never going to be able to lead others. You've got to be able. So I say you have to have the skill, you have to hone the skill, you have to practice the skill, you have to implement the skill when the time comes.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. It's interesting when you think about how this translates to leadership today, right? The name of your book is The Harder I Fall, The Higher I Bounce. Right? So you're talking about you can't achieve success without failure, and so what you're talking about here, being a good leader starts with leading yourself, I think one of the areas that maybe is evolving or has evolved is leaders being comfortable with leading by example, even when that means failing, right?

Sarah Nicastro: Because if you think about if you can achieve success without failure and you need to normalize that and eliminate that fear of failing, which will ultimately prohibit creativity, innovation, all of those things, I think one of the best ways for a leader to really institute that belief in their team is to be willing to be vulnerable enough to show themselves failing, which means setting the ego aside, the leader ego aside, and being okay with knowing that, yes, you have to listen to yourself, you have to follow your gut, you have to rely on your intuition and your leadership abilities, but when that doesn't go well, that's okay, too, right? I mean, that's something that you and your team both can learn from and use as an opportunity to normalize the fact that failure is a part of success. Does that make sense?

Max James: Sure. It absolutely does. A friend of mine years and years ago wrote a book called The Joy of Failure, and his whole point was that you learn so much from failing that you should take the positive from failure. Losing when you have a large team, even a company, behind you will certainly show your vulnerability. It's how you respond to that failure with your team. We often talk about servant leadership, where your job is to support the team and to draw on the team.

Max James: So if you're practicing that as a leader in a philanthropic effort or a large business or a small business as an entrepreneur, if your team knows that you're supporting them and you fail, you fail as a team, and they will get it. They will understand what happened and what the principles were that didn't work or that did work. So, yeah, I would agree with that. Absolutely. The fear of failure is overwrought. There's too much emphasis on absolutely just being afraid to fail. It's going to hurt. It may cost you a lot. It may change your entire career or your life, but life will go on. Business will go on, and you will bounce back if you have the right attitude.

Sarah Nicastro: What I'm thinking about in real time as you say that is the correlation then between eliminating that mentality of failure as bad and how that correlates to perseverance, right? If you think about it in terms of the team and the message is failure's not an option, okay, then when it inevitably happens, the emotion tied to that can be so strong that then the willingness to get up and bounce back the next day is hindered, right? So, in a way, I think that the more you normalize failure and create the understanding within your team, organization, business, what have you, that it is a part of success, a path to success, the better sense of perseverance your employees will have because they're not tied to that emotion of failure being such a negative thing, which for some people...

Sarah Nicastro: I mean, yes, some people have the fortitude where they can fail and get up the next day and try again no matter what, but others, that sense of failure being bad could contribute to less individual perseverance because it makes them not want to try again. Do you know what I mean? So the more you normalize this idea of failure not being a bad thing, the greater your ability to increase the sense of perseverance and triumph in your team because they don't perceive it as such a big negative thing, if that makes sense.

Max James: Yeah. A leader should always let his people know that he will be there to pick them up, that if they fail in an assignment, in a project that they were given, that the leader will be there to support and to pick them up in the event that this particular effort wasn't successful. One of the things we always told our people is there will be other opportunities in your life and some of them won't be here. It may not be here because you don't like it. It may not be here because you don't have the skills to accomplish all of the things that we need. But if you ever find another opportunity that is better for you than this one, we will cheer you on. We will support you. We will do all we can to help you with that.

Max James: So I'm going to give you one other example. I had a foundation for kids that are terminally ill and chronically ill, and we talked about this failure business, and they have fallen, right? They're very ill, not their fault that they have fallen, but they're very ill, and several of them, a large percentage, weren't going to make it, and they were aware of it. But here's what we told them. I took a tennis ball, and I dropped the tennis ball, and it only comes back about, what, halfway? But if you throw the tennis ball down, it bounces much higher. These kids that were five to 16, 17 years old, they got that illustration, that they had fallen hard but they could bounce back higher if they were like that tennis ball and were resilient and willing to bounce. So I think that's true of failure. You don't have to fear failure. Be willing to accept failure, learn from it, and go onto the next project or business or entrepreneurial effort.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Do you think that that perception of failure is... What do you think the state of that is in business today? Do you think the perception of failure is different than it was earlier in your career? Do you think it's evolved?

Max James: I think there's far less fear today than was my experience early on in my career. Getting fired, to me, was back then a very frightening thing. I'm not talking about the time in the military. I'm talking about the time when I got out of Stanford and started businesses. In fact, listen, I've been fired three times, okay, three times, not always my fault, okay? The business changed, the tax changed, the company got purchased for another. But the point is I never feared it. You just gird your loins and say, "I got to get through this, and here are the things I'm going to do." Opportunity knocks. No, opportunity rarely knocks at your door. You have to go out and find opportunity. When you find it, you got to grab it by the neck and shake it and beat it up until opportunity is yours, okay? So you always have to be prepared. Opportunity doesn't knock. You may have to go find it.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Okay. So-

Max James: But the fear today... There's so many opportunities and it's so much easier to find them because we have this thing called the Internet and social media and the ability to stay in contact with past friends and business associates, the ability to find good mentors to help you through these things. No, I think that the fear of failure should be far less today. Fall hard, bounce high. The next book may be fail fast, fall forward. I kind of like that. Fail fast, fall forward.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I like it. Okay. So one of the things that I found interesting about you, and I'm not sure why, it's probably something to reflect on, is you say that meditation is one of your, if not the, top business tools. So how did you discover that? How do you practice it, and what value do you feel it brings to you in your business life?

Max James: Very good. How I found it, for me, I was at a seminar, and the gentleman that was teaching the seminar said, "Before we got started, I want to show you something and have you experience it." So it was transcendental meditation, and we hummed for a while, and he explained in his mind what the benefits were. So I went ahead with the seminar, and afterwards, at home, I would do as he had suggested, take up to maybe 10, 15, 20 minutes sometime and just try not to think. Here's what happened to me. I'd sit in a chair most of the time, I don't do it laying down, and I would take a notebook, and I would lay it down beside the chair. When I finished the meditation, all of these thoughts had come into my subconscious and risen into the conscious mind, and I would write them down. I used to, for fun, entertain people in the Air Force at the officers' club, and I'd do the same thing. I'd wake up in the mornings and immediately write down all the cute little ideas for the next show at the officers' club.

Max James: So I discovered that, one, it reduced stress enormously just to stop worrying for 15 or 20 minutes or trying to figure everything out. Just take a real break, not a break where you sit and say, "Okay, I'm going to think about this for a while." No, no, no. Stop and don't think. That's what helped me, and it helped me through many personal situations in life so far, and it certainly helped me in business. So I continue to do it. By the way, I must have, I don't know, 30, 40 books on meditation. So it's something that I've felt strongly enough about. I've taught it in my companies. I've tried to get my friends to do it from time to time, and I still do it. To relieve stress is the principle reason.

Max James: I could give you examples, and there's a good example in the book where I had missed an airplane and it was an important meeting and I got there and it was a mess and I had a headache so bad I couldn't stand it. They took me back to the hotel before we had dinner, and I did meditation for about 15 to 20 minutes. The headache went away, and we had a successful dinner meeting. So I believe in it, yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: So I have a few questions, okay?

Max James: Okay.

Sarah Nicastro: So at the conference when this was first introduced you, what was your initial reaction?

Max James: "Oh, you got to be kidding. What is this? This is a bunch of... I'm not going to do this." But I had previously known the speaker, and I knew how bright he was. I knew his background. I knew his education, and it was transcendental... TM back then was popular. You could buy the book. So I thought, "Well, if it's good enough for him, I'm going to try it," and I liked it.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. And do you typically practice in the morning, or do you wait until you just feel that you need that stress relief? What is your routine around it?

Max James: Yeah. I would say both of those. For me, practicing it in the morning after I'm dressed and have had breakfast or whatever and just sit down before I really hit it. Then, secondly, if I'm feeling distress of whatever, the breathing is just... It's just so good. It's like taking a hot shower, okay? It's just a total relief. Then when I stop meditation, I feel like I have more energy. So it works for me.

Sarah Nicastro: No, I think it's really cool. Like I said, it was unexpected, something unexpected I read, and it's something I know I need to try. So I need to make a commitment to do that. I do-

Max James: I hope you will.

Sarah Nicastro: I do believe in it and think it will help. I have some of my own practices that I certainly benefit from. Mine is I work out every morning, right? So that's my time to get in the zone or whatever. But it is still different from that sense of quiet and peace and breathing and all of that. I don't know that we've talked about meditation specifically on this podcast before, but we certainly have talked about, for someone who is responsible for being creative, innovating, those sorts of things, the idea of figuring out what works for you in terms of creating white space. I think, like you said, at the end of that 15 or 20 minutes, you have all of these fresh thoughts and ideas, and it's because you literally took a break. It's not because you were thinking about it harder, right, or running faster on the hamster wheel.

Max James: That's right.

Sarah Nicastro: It's because you stepped off of it. I suppose that doesn't need to look the same for everyone, but I do think that that practice of preserving time to have that white space is incredibly important for people who are responsible for a lot of creative ideas, problem-solving, innovation, transformation. I find myself I come up with my best ideas when I walk away. So it could be in the shower. It can be on a walk. It's when I finally allow myself to take a breather that whatever the solution is or... That's when it comes to you. It's not when you're trying so hard to force it out, right?

Max James: No. In simple terms, it's blocking all the junk that goes into your head all the time. A lot of times, people have trouble sleeping. Why? Because they can't turn it off. Well, it's the same thing during the day in stress and whatnot. There are a lot of people who say they meditate while they're in an activity like tennis. Some of the pros meditate. Well, what they're really doing is they're learning to focus, to focus on one thing and getting the other stuff out of the way. "Oh, what's the score?" It doesn't matter what the score is. Just do the best you can right now. So I find it terribly beneficial and have for a long time.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. Interesting.

Max James: Try it. You'll like it.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. I will. All right. So the last thing I wanted to talk about, Max, is... And I think I saw this on your LinkedIn. So I'm going to read some text here, and then we'll talk about it, okay? You had a post and it says, "When your business doesn't appear to be accomplishing your goals, it's tempting to feel you need outside help in finding the magical solution. More often than not, however, what you really need to do first is go back and examine whether or not you have missed or ignored the basic business fundamentals. As Harvey Mackay says, maybe you just need to go back and walk the manufacturing floor, i.e., look really hard for the flaws, the flies in the ointment. Strong fundamentals and foundations lead to healthy businesses that can bounce high and withstand difficult circumstances." So the reason this stood out to me-

Max James: Oh, that's a mouthful, isn't it? Wow.

Sarah Nicastro: The reason this stood out to me is because a lot of the conversations we have on this podcast relate to some element of evolving a business, digital transformation, leveraging technology in a new or different way, introducing a new value proposition, et cetera, et cetera, right, so a lot of things to do with evolution, innovation, change. I think that this point that you're making here is where a lot of companies fail, and I don't mean failure in the good way. I mean, failure in the debilitating way, right? Because they try to race ahead when, in reality, there are some underlying foundational things that need to be addressed to set the stage for whatever success they're trying to achieve. So tell us a little bit more, your thoughts around this idea of before you look for some magic bullet, go back through and look for those flies in the ointment. Are there certain things that, in your experience, you feel like are common, or what would you want listeners to think about when they hear me read that quote?

Max James: The first thing that comes to my mind is have I been diligent in choosing the people that work for me or with me? There's a thing in the book, and I highlight it everywhere. Hire for character, train for skill. Did I really look hard at this person's background or their personality, their honesty, moral interpretative... Did I really look for that? That's, I think, one of the things Harvey says about get out of your office and go out to the field and see what you have. I oftentimes was amazed and angry with myself that we had allowed people with poor character to join the organization in a meaningful position. So that would be the first.

Max James: The second one is have you really expressed, first to yourself and then to the people that you are associated with, what your goal is? Do I really know what it is that I'm hoping we're going to accomplish? Are we just trying to make a bunch of money? Are we trying to provide good jobs for people? Are we donating enough money to our favorite charities? Does everybody agree with that? Back to the basics of being a good leader. There are a million books written on leadership, and there are thousands of books written about character, starting with the bestselling book of all time. It's the Bible, okay? So where in there are you?

Max James: Dr. Robert Schuller, who was a spiritual mentor of mine before he passed and still is, by the way, I read something that he has written every single day, Schuller said, "Are you suffering a brownout or a blackout? Are you sure it's a blackout? Are you sure there's not something you're doing wrong that you can fix and really this is just a brown out, not a blackout?" So get out of your office, go out there, and really look hard at whether or not you are using the tools that you know are true, that you have practiced, and that you have skill levels in to build this. Look inside first before you go shouting fire in the theater. Are you sure? So I think that's the point I was trying to make there, is that you may be really screwing things up yourself and everybody else is trying to fix it or throwing up their hands because you don't understand the real problem. So make sure that you are doing what you know, you absolutely know, are the right things to do for leadership and for progress.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. We had a podcast late last year with... Slowing Down to Speed Up, I think, was the title of it, and it was with-

Max James: Great point.

Sarah Nicastro: ... Eduardo Bonefont from BD. That was a little bit more specific to the idea of innovation via technology, right? But what he found was while the natural tendency today is to race to, "Okay, what's next, what do we add, what do we change, what's the next layer of innovation," he found that when he spent time... Exactly what you're saying. When he spent time with the frontline workforce, when it came to technology specifically, they had a lot of issues with some of the foundational systems that were in place, and so this mentality of, "Well, let's add to that and let's build, build, build," they would've been doing that on a faulty foundation, which was causing a lot of frustration among their workforce.

Sarah Nicastro: So they decided to take a pause year, pause meaning they obviously were conducting business but pause from technology investment, and take the budget that they would've invested in whatever was next or new on their roadmap, to put that into fixing these foundational issues and improving the engagement and satisfaction of their frontline workforce. It's something that, retelling it, sounds simple, sounds smart, right, but it works against the grain of a lot of business mentality, which is race, race, race, what's next, what's next? So it was such a good story to share, and it makes me think of this point that you made with your LinkedIn post and this idea of the failure often isn't in some massive misstep so much as a lot of little cracks that are adding up to frustration or misalignment or a lot of other things. So I think it's a really good point.

Max James: There are two cliches that come to mind. One is, if you remember all the old Aesop's Tales, the tortoise won the race over the hare, and so there are times when speed isn't going to... Secondly, perfection is the enemy of excellence. You can be beating up on your people to do this, that, and the other thing when the profits are pretty good, things are going well, the future looks bright. So put the whip down and feed them some ice cream.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Max James: Yeah. We sometimes let our own personal idiosyncrasies get in the way of an organization's idiosyncrasies.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. All right, Max. Any final thoughts, words of wisdom, advice that you would like to share?

Max James: A couple. The old Air Force motto is, "Fly, fight, win." It doesn't say fly and win. It says you have to fight. So whether you're an entrepreneur or whether you're an intrapreneur inside a large company, you're going to have to double up your fist and fight for what you want. Prepare as well as you can that what you are fighting for is worth it and the way you are fighting is with character and integrity. So hire for character, train for skills, bet on bright, but cut your losses early and move on. Don't be afraid of failing. If you've done your best, that is success, and failure's never final. This was good, Sarah. I have enjoyed it very much. Thank you for inviting me.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Thank you, Max. Let folks know where they can find the book.

Max James: Amazon, The Harder I Fall, The Higher I Bounce, or put in my name and it'll come up. I told many people I'm prouder of the endorsements which you'll find on the page than I actually am of the book, and so you'll find the former Air Force Chief of Staff, the Vice Chairman of General Motors. Some people that I have high respect for have been overly flattering. So go to Amazon, The Harder I Fall, The Higher I Bounce.

Sarah Nicastro: Awesome. Thank you, Max. I appreciate it.

Max James: Thank you, ma'am. Thank you.

Sarah Nicastro: You can find more by visiting us at futureoffieldserviceref.ifs.com. You can also find us on LinkedIn as well as Twitter, @TheFutureOfFS. The Future of Field Service podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thanks for listening.

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January 26, 2022 | 30 Mins Read

Real Talk on Combating the Talent Gap

In a special episode recorded on site in Palm Springs, California, Sarah talks with Roy Dockery, VP of Customer Care at Swisslog Healthcare about an issue that is top of mind: how to recruit, hire, and retain good talent in 2022. In line with the brand of his own personal podcast, Roy shares his “savage truth,” explaining his stance that the issue is less of a talent gap and more a resistance to doing the work to find (and keep) the right employees.

Sarah Nicastro: Welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro, coming to you from Palm Springs, California. So those of you that regularly watch or listen to the podcast would know that typically I am in my home office. Today we are filming on-site at Field Service Palm Springs. And I'm thrilled to be joined by my friend, Roy Dockery, who is the Vice President of Customer Care at Swisslog Healthcare. Thanks for being here, Roy.

Roy Dockery: Thank you. Good to be back at an in-person event here in Palm Springs when it's not Coachella.

Sarah Nicastro: Yes, true.

Roy Dockery: Like November.

Sarah Nicastro: Is this your first in-person event post-COVID?

Roy Dockery: It's not. I was at the TSIA event a couple of weeks ago in Las Vegas. So that would've been my first conference, but I've been well back into traveling since May.

Sarah Nicastro: Do you know what's funny, today's podcast, the one that actually published today is Kevin Bowers from TSIA.

Roy Dockery: Okay, yes.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. So, all right, cool. So we're here, we're back in Palm Springs. Happy to be back at the Field Service event. Roy and I were catching up yesterday, reflecting on the first podcast you were on, which was episode two. I think this week we hit 137. So it's been a while, but we're going to talk about the same topic today. And we're going to do that because I think we were maybe a little ahead of the game when we talked about the topic the first time, which is recruiting, hiring, retention. So when you were on the podcast the first time, we were talking about this talent gap, which has only exacerbated as a challenge being talked about here. So you and I both observed over the last couple days, everyone is part of every session, right?

Roy Dockery: Yeah. The Great Resignation.

Sarah Nicastro: Yes, the great resignation, yes. So we started talking about this a while ago and I realize it is a growing challenge for folks, but I like your take a lot and have a lot of respect for it because you think people need to take a little bit more responsibility for the problem. And so I want to talk about that again today, because I think that the conversation warrants a revisit because people are really struggling with this right now. And I think some of the thoughts you have around how and why people should look at their role in solving the problem a little bit deeper is good. So give us your take on this.

Roy Dockery: Yeah. So one, you have the great resignation that's around people leaving and jobs and purpose. There's all these assumptions. No one really knows why people are leaving jobs. Some people are taking pay cuts, some people are taking promotions. There's remote work being factored into it, flexibility, work-life balance. But when we look at it from a field service perspective, like we're here now, probably a couple of years after we originally had these conversations, we also talked about it in magazine interviews. And so you fast forward, I've been talking about recruitment at these events for five years. So before the great resignation, before the pandemic, I was trying to raise the awareness and make the clarion call that this going to be a problem.

Roy Dockery: We can't keep hiring people the same way because on top of people resigning to go into different fields, we had an aging workforce in field service, and they're retiring. And a lot of them now are retiring early or just taking advantage of benefits. There were health concerns with entering facilities and travel. And so the same problem is there, it just got exacerbated. So just like here at the conference, everyone's talking about digital transformation, everybody wanted video assistance tools. All of those things got accelerated and implemented during the pandemic because they became a necessity.

Roy Dockery: So I think you and I were talking about it, what now, 135 episodes ago, because we didn't want to have to be reactive. So right, we were trying to be proactive in saying we can't keep each other's technicians. And it's still happening now. I'm experiencing attrition right now, it's not significant. Our attrition rate is still less than 10%, but I'm losing people to other field service organizations. And you're overpaying for that talent. So I have an employee work for me for six or seven months and then can go get a job just because they have field service on their resumes.

Roy Dockery: So now people can jump from company to company and we're seeing that. And it's like, no one took the initiative to be able to develop a workforce. And I was talking to somebody last night at a dinner about that farming, we've been hunters for so long. And when you say take responsibility, we have to take responsibility for the fact that we got lazy in our recruitment. We got lazy in our development. We just were comfortable getting people who had industry knowledge, and not having to go through the basics. So when it comes from a training perspective, when we look historically 30 years ago at field service, when we were pulling people out of apprenticeships and out of electricians and mechanics and different union shops and taking them through all the building blocks, the foundational aspects of our business, our technology, our software, a lot of us got lazy.

Roy Dockery: We don't want to do hand tools, we don't want to teach people about multimeters and reading diagrams, even though that training takes like two days. It's not a three-month long process. And so for me, being someone that's ex-military, seeing people who are 17 and 18 years old be able to be trained in anything, as long as you give everyone the same essential training, you give everyone the same building blocks. And so my team and in our organization were like, we can do the same thing. We've effectively done the same thing because we hire people right out the military that don't have industry experience, which is consistent across field service, but you have less people who join the military, you have less people who are getting out of the military and you just have more competition now because everyone figured out that equation, everybody figured out that hack. So it's like, let me go hire military people. So even that's becoming ridiculously competitive.

Roy Dockery: So switching to and taking responsibility for the fact that if you can't bring somebody in that has the skills that your organization needs, that has the behavior that meets your culture, if you can't bring those people in and train them, that's not a talent gap problem, that's a training problem. That's a training and development issue. And that's what I think a lot of companies are wrestling with right now because it's not like there aren't people who have skills and probably the right behavior. They don't have the experience that you've been taking for granted and substituting that for an effective training program. So that's my approach and it's just we have to own it.

Roy Dockery: With all the generations and people don't stay, everything gets blamed on us millennials, oh, millennials don't stay at jobs. But it doesn't seem like Gen Xers are staying at jobs either, or that baby boomers are staying at jobs. So people just have transition, but you have to be able to develop and we've got to get back into farming and developing talent. And the cool thing about field service, like at my company, I was a field service technician, I'm the Vice President of Customer Care, but we have people from field service in every aspect of our business. They're customer success managers, they're product managers, they're software engineers, they're in our development team and our engineering department.

Roy Dockery: So it's not only a good place to farm talent for the field, it's a good place to farm talent for the organization. We have people in sales that come from field service. And installation and things like that. So if we make more of an investment in bringing those people in and be willing to develop them and let them move through the organization, that can help with the retention as well because you might not retain them in a role, but then the ultimate goal is to retain that talent within the company as well.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. So the reality is hiring based on experience, which is what a lot of the people at this conference are still trying to do, and they're very frustrated good that it's not working, the experience is becoming extinct and, or far too expensive, right?

Roy Dockery: Yes.

Sarah Nicastro: So that is the reality that hopefully a couple years later people are now ready to hear. So let's talk about some of the antidotes to that. So if we can all accept that, that is fact and hopefully people are coming around to the idea that you can't just keep looking for people that have five years, 10 years of experience, you need to start thinking differently. There's a couple areas we need to think about. So one of the things that we've talked about is the branding problem or the PR problem that this industry has, in the sense that younger people just don't know that there are viable and fulfilling career opportunities at companies like Swisslog. They're just not known. So what are your thoughts on that part of the solution? How do you as a company, as a leader and us as an entire industry make progress in creating better awareness around field service as a career?

Roy Dockery: Yeah, right. I think to go back to what we said before, the first thing is you have to accept that you have a problem. And because of the fact that we haven't been leveraging what's available that once you accept that, then you have to be okay, what am I doing wrong now? Because you've got to admit you're doing something wrong. Hiring just for experience is wrong, it's ineffective and it has a lifespan that we are running into right now is ending. So that's the first thing. It was like, okay, so then what areas am I not looking at?

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. So let's assume that we have an understanding among people we're speaking to that the idea of hiring based on experience is no longer an option. So one of the things we need to think about then is how we create more awareness about the career opportunities that exist in field service, right?

Roy Dockery: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: So you're talking about really a lot of different industries, a lot of different types of companies and types of work, but all things that fly under the radar of, when you ask a kid what they want to be, when they up, they say a doctor or a nurse or a teacher, they don't say like a field technician because it's just not something that is widely known as an option. So what are your thoughts on how we, as organizations, as an industry collectively, how do we overcome that problem?

Roy Dockery: Yeah. And I think one, we have to look at it collectively as an industry, right? Like computer science programmers, like artificial intelligence. All of those things are industries. So there's outreach within that industry, there's the progression of this is what you do in high school, this is what you do in college or in technical school. We've been taken for granted, the value of people we already had within the workforce that I think field service is never really, and even now, with the podcast and we've never really marketed and publicized ourself as an industry.

Roy Dockery: So I think one thing is even with IFS and what you do on the podcast, it's like, okay, how do we reach back and say, how do we do outreach to high schools to let people know you can graduate from high school, go to a two-year technical school and then get a 50 plus thousand dollars a year job, how do you go to the technical schools and say, if you have people graduating with EET or associates degrees and information technology, let's move it forward because it's hard for us. One thing for field service, a lot of us, it's not like we have an office where we're hiring 50 people, I have 150 technicians spread across like 40 states in an entire continent.

Roy Dockery: So individually, I think it's a lot harder for us to do that outreach, but then collectively, when you look at the number of field service technicians in any given city, not necessarily in a given company, because we're talking about HVAC, retail, hospitality, restaurants, they're everywhere. But like you said, no one knows that. And I remember talking to my daughter's middle school principal and I asked him, I said, because he also had some relationships with the high school. And I said, if I asked the class of high school students right now who wants to make over $50,000 a year and travel 75% of the time, how many of them you think would say yes? And he was like, like 75% of them. And I was like, that's what field service is, but nobody knows what it is.

Roy Dockery: So right. One, we need an outreach arm. Let Sarah be the face of outreach to schools and in that space. Because I think we need to collectively foster that reality, because we all struggle from it. But even if you've got 8,000 technicians or 2,000 technicians, they're spread all over the country. So I think having that intentionality as an industry to come together to say, we need to reach into education, we need to work with workforce development, we need to work with vocational rehab through the VA and just say, these jobs are options, you don't need a bunch of experience, you need an aptitude, you need the right behavior, you need a skillset that's trainable, and then we can get you into the field.

Roy Dockery: So I think we've got to make it public, we've got to make it known as an industry, not just as employers. So we're going to have to collaborate a little bit instead of hiring all of each other's employees because in the next five years, all of those people are going to be gone, five to 10 years. So I think there's collaboration required in that to market that, like I said, in workforce development, in the education sector and in secondary and vocational education. So I think that'll be important. And then on top of that, we just have to commit. You've got to commit to doing it different, you need a different net, you got to cast in different water. You can't keep doing it the way that you have been. That might get you people for the next year or two. But like you said those people that are coming more are expensive. And then those people are just going to get hired by somebody else who will pay them more money. So we've got to learn to farm talent, and then we've got to know that that talent may come to us, but when they want to move to another city, they may go work for you. So it's like, we can't take that selfish approach because what we're all finding right now is that when somebody wants to work from home or needs a job that's maybe in the city versus regionally, when a lot of our people, my employees leave, it's like, okay, I love field service, but I don't really want to travel outside the city.

Roy Dockery: So then you go work for an ATM company. They're 40,000 ATMs within two hours versus 20 hospitals within a four-hour radius. So people are switching in between those companies to make those personal life choices and not like, we just have to be accepting of that. But if we're all working to increase the size of the pool by farming talent, instead of just hunting it, then I think we all collectively benefit. Right now we're just robbing Peter to pay Paul, as one of my managers loves to say.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. So there's the PR issue. And then there's a couple other things I want to talk about. One is, we talked about the military, and that's kind of like, if people accept they can't get someone with five years’ experience, the default then is to go try and get them from the military. That's kind of become the new go-to, right?

Roy Dockery: Yep.

Sarah Nicastro: So that doesn't mean it's a bad source, it just means that can't be your only source. So what other sources are you exploring or finding success with when it comes to looking outside of now that as a new area of opportunity?

Roy Dockery: Yeah. And like you said, with the military, I'm ex-military, almost all my entire management team, we're actually all ex-Navy, but one thing we're noticing as well, it's becoming more competitive. So people coming out of the military with three or four years of experience now, they can demand or they can get $70,000 salary in like a non-metro area, because, like you said, that's the go-to now. So that's the new thing. But then also now you have no experience and expense. So now I have someone with no experience, that's actually more expensive as a candidate. So the main thing we've been successful with is really just changing how we're trying to recruit and what we're looking for.

Roy Dockery: So when you change your job postings, when you remove experience and specific industry knowledge, I'm not trying to hire a healthcare field service engineer, I'm not trying to hire a field service engineer at all because I know the industry has poor PR. We just had a meeting a couple of weeks ago at our HR department, and I said, find me people who worked at Chick-fil-A, I want customer service people. If you got Chick-fil-A and you've got a technical background, my managers have walked into Best Buys, to Geek Squads that are in their territories where we have job openings. But the main thing was, it's one thing to go and try to advocate or build relationships with, if we're doing stuff with handshake and building relationships with technical schools. But if when somebody from that technical school goes apply, but my job requirement and my job description still says two to three years of experience or an associate's degree or a bachelor's degree preferred, people are going to eliminate themselves. And so I think one of the problems we have is that even from hiring managers, supervisors and managers aren't really looking for people with experience, but our net is eliminating people who don't have it either through the screening process with recruitment in HR or because people don't apply to begin with.

Roy Dockery: So one thing that we found in getting more diversity and just different types of candidates, it's removing some of the obstacles that were actually just in our job posting. So remove experience, take the industry specific stuff out of it and just advocate for people. It's like a one ad for people, like not a technician.

Sarah Nicastro: So what's some of the terminology, if you don't use field service, you don't use technician, you don't use healthcare, what does it say?

Roy Dockery: So we're recruiting for field service technicians. But when we put in experience, we want people with customer service experience, we want people who have a technical aptitude, so you don't have that technical experience. And so we've really just dumbed down those requirements so that we have more people to apply because once you can look at a resume and then get a feeling for a candidate, the issue was, my team wanted to hire different people, but they weren't applying, so it's like, I can't hire you if you don't apply. And we do it on a revolving basis, if we get a candidate that happened to apply and we look at their resume and be like, okay, they applied, even though from our job posting, it doesn't look like they were qualified.

Roy Dockery: So what we started doing is like, who have we hired lately that's like a nontraditional employee that's doing really well? And then so we continue to go and revise. And so that's, we hired somebody recently that was an employee at Chick-fil-A, recent tech school graduate, she's doing phenomenal. So let's put more weight on customer service, let's get people with more of a customer service background. So it's an ongoing kind of evolution. But the first thing we did was remove education requirements, because the vast majority of our employees do not have associates or bachelor degrees. They just don't. Most of them have military experience. We reduced the amount of military experience that we required or that we had as preferred, and then we started focusing more on customer service because we trust our technical training program.

Roy Dockery: We think we can get people up to speed technically. So we really want the right behavior, we want the right skillsets. People who are trainable, people who come up to speed quickly and mostly can interact with customers. We're in healthcare, it's a high stress environment. I used to tell people that I trained when I was in the field, this job is 90% communication and 10% fixing. So those are the skills we started looking for. And that's the same thing when you recruit. And anytime I consult with or speak to companies that are dealing with recruitment issues, that's the first thing I tell them, look at who your top performers are and tell me if they match your job description. And nine times out of 10, they do not.

Roy Dockery: Your best software engineer doesn't have a software degree, your best field service technician doesn't have an EET degree, he's the guy from Home Depot. I was talking to one guy, it was like, it was the CEO's son. And we thought we were going to hate him because he was a high school graduate, but he's our best applications engineer now. And he had no experience whatsoever, he would've never gotten that job if he wasn't related, if it wasn't nepotism, but he was good at it.

Sarah Nicastro: So I mean the point that brings up though is then you have to be willing to take some risks, right?

Roy Dockery: Yes.

Sarah Nicastro: Because it’s calculated, but in that example, he got the job because he was somebody's, whatever. But the point is you might need to try some different things to see what works, but you're better off doing that than just not trying anything.

Roy Dockery: Yeah, because you have no choice. You have to do something different. And it's like you said, it's a calculated risk. If you're hiring people who are heavier on customer service, then that means your management team has to be more intentional about training on technical. But at the same time, when we hire people who are very technical, we terminate more people for behavioral issues than we do for technical competency.

Sarah Nicastro: We were at the table yesterday, Marcela from Eppendorf said the same thing, I hire on soft skills, I can train anything else. So if you think about that, you can get good soft skills from a lot of different places. So to your point, if you invest in being able to train on the technical stuff, it opens up a lot of opportunities. Training, that's another podcast. We're not talking about that today. But there are a couple more things I want to get to.

Sarah Nicastro: One is, so we talk about making the application process more appealing so that, or I guess eliminating barriers so that you can get more people to apply and not field themselves out based on some words that are in there. But what about the job itself? Because this is the other thing you and I have talked about a bit in the past is the idea that people looking for jobs today want different things than people looking for jobs five, 10, 15, 20 years ago did. And a lot of field service organizations haven't necessarily changed the structure of their, not just, compensation probably is the most regularly changed thing. But looking at, how are we describing the role, what parts of it are we emphasizing or what changes could we make as a business that we might not have thought we needed to make, but we are capable of doing to offer more flexibility or something that is appealing to people that we want to bring into the company today?

Roy Dockery: Yeah. And I think it has to do with the type of, one, the kind of services that we can dynamically offer as an organization. So field service has high demand, travels. Sometimes you got to be flexible, you're on-call. That's an eliminating factor for some people, especially people have to deal with childcare and things of that nature, having to run a call at two o'clock in the morning with no notice and you have a four-year old, that's just not a job that you can take. So one of the things that we've even looked at evolving over time is, we will interview somebody and then we'll have multiple openings and then we can make a suggestion, okay, maybe you take this role that is a resident for this particular hospital, and so that's all you have to do. You cover that site and you have on-call, but it's once every four weeks. And so you create that flexibility. And a lot of it has to do with how forthright and open the candidates are right about what their needs are, which I think is improving now.

Roy Dockery: A lot of people didn't feel like they could stress what they needed and the flexibility had. They thought, think it would put their job at risk. And so I think one, that's one thing you have to encourage people to be open, I don't want you to take a job that you then can't physically do as well.

Sarah Nicastro: I think it's another change from COVID too though. Because work from home became more common, flexibility became a more in-demand criteria. And I think it is something for field service companies to think about because each business is different. So there's no prescriptive answer, but we had a consultant on the podcast, not so long ago, Lauren Winans with Next Level. And one of the things she brought up is, if we know flexibility is and is going to continue to be very, very important, then again, it's another area to break out of, well we just can't. It's just field service we just can't and actually sit down and look at like, okay, operationally, are there ways we could, can we do some sort of rotating schedule so that it does become possible to provide that in some way or is there some halfway point?

Sarah Nicastro: Maybe it's not flexibility to this degree, but you could have an extra day off every two weeks. You know what I mean? Whatever it is to meet in the middle, if we know that that is such an important factor for people. There's recruiting in terms of getting fish to bite, to get in the door. But then there's recruiting in the sense of am I offering an employee value proposition that is appealing. And that means you need to understand what your target audience wants and needs. And that might be then a second phase of having to really examine where you're at and if you need to make some changes. Just because they're telling you they want flexibility doesn't mean that you just kick them out the door and... If you're going to hear that every time somebody walks in for an interview, then you have to start thinking as a company, what do we do with this data?

Roy Dockery: Yeah. And it becomes limiting from that standpoint as well, because there's a pool. In field service, I'm never surprised when somebody leaves. It's a difficult job, who wants to be on-call 24 hours a day, seven days a week. When I interview people, I'm like, we're crazy, we're a unique breed of people, but-

Sarah Nicastro: You're going to love it till you hate it.

Roy Dockery: Yeah, you're going to love it till you hate it. And it's a certain dynamic of people, but I think that's why organizations also have to be intentional about not just training people but developing them.

Sarah Nicastro: That was the last point I wanted to talk about, which is, you have to figure out how to get more people interested in the career opportunities, you have to make sure that you are creating an employee value proposition that is appealing to the people you're trying to hire today, not the people that work for you now.

Sarah Nicastro: You have to come to grips with the fact that there are realities you have to contend with, you can't just offer the same thing you've always offered and expect people to be interested in it. And while there are constrictions on how much a given industry can recreate that value proposition, I think people, again, it's another area where people are kind of lazy, they just default to, nope, we've hired on experience, we'll do that. Nope, this is what it is. You take it or leave it. And that just has to change. But the last area I want to talk about is this idea of retention. And I like the point you made at the beginning about maybe field service is sort of the entry level where we can bring people in without experience, without education requirements, train them on the technical parts, as long as they have the soft skills and the aptitude to learn and then farm them up for the rest of the business.

Sarah Nicastro: So you kind of keep that continual flow. You have the talent you need when you need it, but you know going in, it's not going to stay there for 10, 15, 20, 30 years like it has in the past. So talk about that part.

Roy Dockery: So I had dinner last week with an employee that was retiring after 30 years. I'm like, so why do you see people coming in and going? But people define success in different ways. So success was to have a job that would let me retire with the pension and I can take care of my family. That's a very traditional kind of concept, but people want challenges, they want to do different things, they want to have transitions. I've had technically five jobs in the last 11 years, but I've worked at the same company. So I'm not someone who wants to keep doing the same thing constantly, but luckily I've been able to find additional challenges at work.

Roy Dockery: So I think when we bring them in, we've hired people from the warehouse to work in technical support. Within an organization, we have to be focused on what skills do we have within the organization. And then when we have those foundational skills and behavior, if you understand my customer base, if you understand my product, if you understand our processes and our workflow and our installations, where else can you be beneficial? So we have people that go from the field to be project engineers and then become full-fledged project managers. We have people become estimators, and then go from estimating to doing applications and design and go from that to being design analysts.

Roy Dockery: So you can bring them in and they get a feel of the company, but we can get value out of them, we can get revenue out of them. But when I tell my team, if we can retain somebody in the field for two or three years, I'm happy about that. I just think the type of people that worked in the field for 30 years, I just think there's less of them, regardless of like, some people will come in and they'll be happy. That's what they'll do. Other people are going to want challenges. They're more into software than they are into hardware.

Roy Dockery: So as they start working, they start leaning towards one part of the technology than other, then find them a role in that space instead of constantly robbing from other companies. And then you said there's a risk, there's a risk, I can take you from the field and put you in a more technical role and you won't get it. But you face the same risk when you take an external employee and bring them in. They may not meet your culture, they may not understand your customer base, they may not understand your products. So it's a risk, but we've just got to be, yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: And when it comes to the overall puzzle of what we're talking about here, maybe the fact that people aren't as willing to stay still in these roles is that actually something companies can use to their advantage. I think that part of that though is again, thinking ahead and making sure that you accept the reality for what it is and then work backwards on how to communicate with the employees about it. I'm not saying people only leave because they don't know the growth potential, but I'm saying companies today know growth potential is very important for new employees. So if you're not communicating from the beginning what that growth potential is for them at your company, don't expect they're just going to figure it out or know it or they're going to stick around and wait for you to communicate it.

Sarah Nicastro: If there's some way to provide some of that information up front on, here's what your potential is as a field service technician, but then beyond that, here's a bunch of different paths you could take within Swisslog and here's the different timelines that you could start exploring, whatever. I've seen people charted out very specifically or I've seen people just be a little bit more high level, but I think the point is you need to understand that these people from the beginning are going to want more. So how do you use that to your advantage instead of letting them just get picked off by other people?

Roy Dockery: Yeah. What's funny for me, so starting in the field and then moving up through the company and becoming a VP, I've been a Vice President now for over six years. So I started noticing... And when you say communicating that, I think sometimes we do a good job of communicating that during the interview and like, oh, the Vice President was in the field and the person who's interviewing you was in the field, but then that's it. So we don't keep communicating that. So I started noticing a couple of years ago, there were people who worked within our organization that never knew I was in the field, they thought I came into the company as a vice president. I'm like, no, I came in as a technician.

Roy Dockery: So even reiterating that story and keeping that narrative where... We were talking to the HR department, I'm like, I need to celebrate more when somebody leaves my organization and goes into design and applications or into estimating, because I don't want to make it seem like, they took from me, we're retaining, and even our HR department, did they joke, they were like, they have a ratio for me, it's called the internal development ratio. So it's not attrition for my team because half of my attrition is internal.

Roy Dockery: So they leave and go to other departments and we advocate for them, we recommend them. And we also try to do individual development plans, which I think is, right, you've got targets and you've got objectives that you've got to measure, which is how we've done performance management forever. And I love the fact that our company said, okay, we're going to do that. But then we're also going to have individual development plans for everyone, so where do you want to go, what is your short-term goal, what do you want to do in the next one or two years, where do you want to be in two to five years?

Sarah Nicastro: And if you think about, that process serves multiple purposes. Because you're able then to understand what people like, where they see themselves, what their goals are and that helps you map them into different functions of the business. But at the same time, I think when it comes to retention, it also makes them realize that Swisslog as a company is invested in their long-term potential, not just their short-term ability to help the company meet metrics.

Roy Dockery: Yeah, and do the job, right? Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: So in terms of engagement and satisfaction, it's not just smart because you get an idea of what you could present to them as their next step, but you're investing in the relationship with them and creating more loyalty. So that's kind of like the secondary benefit. You know what I mean?

Roy Dockery: Yeah. Because you don't want them just focused on the job. I know this job is rob Peter pay Paul, I know somebody else will pay you 10, $20,000 more than me to travel internationally until you get to go to Brazil. From a job perspective, it's very competitive. There's a lot of different places you can go work. And my management team was talking with HR, they were like, we don't try to sell people on the job, we try to sell people at Swisslog. Everyone in my leadership team comes from the field. Everyone, every manager, every director, they all came from the field. So it's like, we're examples of what we're trying to represent and just building it in that way.

Sarah Nicastro: That is a story you should be telling.

Roy Dockery: Yeah. And that's what we do. And we had that discussion with HR and I'm like, so that's why sometimes somebody's more expensive and we just pass on them. And it's not because they want to come here for a job that pays more money, no, we want to give people an opportunity to build a career. And I tell my employees all at time, I hold you responsible for developing your employees, even if it's developing them out of this company. So if we're developing people and helping them reach their individual potential and we don't have a position, then I'll give you a referral to go work somewhere else, because you're interested in the person and their career. So if they really want to go and they've been doing project management and we had one opening, but it's filled now and we may not have another one for a year or two then fine, I'll give you a referral to go work somewhere as a project manager, I'll let you shadow some of our project managers, so you have experience so you can intelligently speak to it during an interview.

Roy Dockery: I've got supervisors right now that I know are interviewing for management roles. I encourage my managers to go for director roles. And even my directors, I want them to be a Vice President, but I have three directors and there's one me. So two of you might need to go be Vice President somewhere else, or when they take my job, I'll go somewhere else. But I think that's the thing and you're right, there's more that you can sell in that story. But I do think organizations, because then that changes how the entire organization looks at field service.

Roy Dockery: So can you pull from sales, can you pull from engineering project management? What's an entry level position in engineering that you can transition to field service technician to? So if you build out that map of, and we kind of know, so we'll say, hey, one of our people went into engineering through this role or one of our people went into project management through this role, so we can kind of map it out. But as organizations to come together from a leadership perspective and say, okay, if we had success, and almost every company does, there's someone from field service in every department, but map that out for people and make it plain. And then that can probably help more with retention. And again, maybe not retention specifically in field service, but keeping that talent within your organization so that you don't lose the history and the experience and whatever passion they already have for what they're doing.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. So in summary, let's say we had this conversation a few years ago, here we are having it again and hopefully people are ready to listen this time, what would be your closing words of wisdom for people that are now ready to hear what you're saying?

Roy Dockery: Take responsibility, it's our fault. We have to own it. I'm not one to defend HR, we all have our struggles with recruitment, but we incentivize the behavior we reward. If you keep getting candidates and are not the kind of candidates you want, but you keep hiring them, then human resources and recruiting is doing their job. So we have to own it. If we see the price of a new employee going up, if we see attrition from new employees that have been here for a year or two taking other jobs, then we've got to own that and understand what we need to do to better retain our talent and also to give people more opportunities to grow within the organization. But we just have to own it and we should be proactive. And we all have to react right now because we don't have a choice, but we also have to think past the immediate problem.

Roy Dockery: So like I said, we've got to start worrying about how do we do outreach to high schools that are doing alternative paths and people not going to universities for four years. How do we work with workforce development agencies at the state level, at the federal level, how do we bring back apprenticeships and really be able to offer an entry level position where we can trust. There's limiting things for field service, like credit cards. A lot of us got rid of company cards, a lot of us require people to rent vehicles. Most of that stuff you can't do under 21. So they're even fundamental roadblocks, and obstacles that we have that we could eliminate or that we could create some mitigations for that really allow us to develop the next generation of talent that we'll need for field service. But we have to own it and take responsibility and take action.

Sarah Nicastro: Roy, thank you for being you here with me. I appreciate it.

Roy Dockery: Thank you.

Sarah Nicastro: You can find more by visiting us at futureoffieldserviceref.ifs.com. You can also find us on LinkedIn, as well as Twitter at The Future of FS. The Future of Field Service podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thank you for listening.

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January 19, 2022 | 22 Mins Read

Bell and Howell’s Winning Formula for Digital

January 19, 2022 | 22 Mins Read

Bell and Howell’s Winning Formula for Digital

Dr. Haroon Abbu, Vice President of Digital, Data, and Analytics at Bell and Howell and co-author of the 2021 book Trust: The Winning Formula for Digital Leaders, a Practical Guide for Digital Transformation talks with Sarah about the differences between digitally mature and digitally developing organizations.

Sarah Nicastro: Welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today, we're going to be talking about all things digital, data, and analytics. I'm excited to be joined today by Dr. Haroon Abbu, who is the Vice President of Digital, Data and Analytics at Bell and Howell, as well as co-author of the 2021 book, Trust: The Winning Formula for Digital Leaders, A Practical Guide for Digital Transformation. Haroon, welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast.

Haroon Abbu: Thank you. And great to be here, Sarah.

Sarah Nicastro: Yes. I'm excited to have you. Alright. So before we dig into some of the points we want to be sure to cover today, tell our listeners just a little bit more about yourself, your background, your role at Bell and Howell, that sort of thing.

Haroon Abbu: Glad to. My name is Haroon Abbu. I'm the Vice President of Digital, Data and Analytics at Bell and Howell, which is headquartered in Triangle Park in North Carolina. I've been with Bell and Howell for the last 12 years. If you don't know, Bell and Howell is a technology enabled services company with over 850 service engineers. Bell and Howell services industrial equipment from mail automation to robotics with a large install base in North America spanning multiple OEMs. The company also delivers comprehensive solution for retail click-and-collect grocery, pharmacy automation, and production mail industries. Currently I'm focusing on transforming the company through analytics and digital technologies, such as IOT, machine learning, artificial intelligence and field service automation. My team is building digital service offerings, such as remote monitoring by connecting both Legacy and new equipment through log file sensors, et cetera, and processing them in real-time in order to provide prescriptive insights and recommendation to our field service technicians.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay, excellent. So can you talk to me a little bit, Haroon, about what drew you to the field of digital transformation?

Haroon Abbu: Yeah, it's a great question. My undergraduate degree is in industrial engineering. I was always fascinated with operational improvements and efficiency gains, which my, which drove my choice of major. Then I did my MBA and M.S. in Engineering Management with intention of working in a managerial role in manufacturing. Right after my graduation, at that time, I worked in a company that was transitioning from print production to audio cassette manufacturing, and then to the manufacturing of compact discs and DVDs. So in that company, I saw firsthand how a company can be disrupted by rapid changes in technology and can eventually go under if it cannot keep up with the speed of innovation.

Haroon Abbu: When I started at Bell and Howell, I quickly witnessed the same challenge, which is transitioning from a Legacy Mail equipment manufacturing company, into state-of-the-art technology enabled services company, as well as a solution provider for cutting edge technologies in click-and-collect business. While working at Bell and Howell, I also pursued my Ph.D. on digital transformation, where I studied, how physical companies digitally transform themselves. I strongly believe that digital transformation, when done right, can add tremendous value to an organization in number of ways.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. No, it's a really exciting field. I actually recently wrote an article. I've had a few people in the last couple months ask me, "Do you think we should still be using the term digital transformation?" Right? And-

Haroon Abbu: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Sarah Nicastro: ... So I sort of reflected on that in the article because I do get where they're coming from and there's a couple different points that have been made. One is some people perceive that they have already transformed in the instance of the initial migration to a digital ecosystem.

Haroon Abbu: Right.

Sarah Nicastro: And then, is transformation the appropriate word if we're really talking about something that's more of an ongoing continual effort? What are your thoughts on that?

Haroon Abbu: Definitely. It's not digital transformation because it's table stakes. All companies need to go through digital transformation. We nowadays effort to has just digital. It's companies, how companies can innovate their business models using digital technologies-

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: ... Because digital actually magnifies the traditional metrics. In the olden days, if you're getting one X return on something, once we have the backbone under digital systems, then the impact is multifold because-

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: ... The investment is already made, then it's basically scaling up from there.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: So it's basically how companies can use digital in their strategy.

Sarah Nicastro: Right.

Haroon Abbu: There is no business strategy in digital strategy because digital is the strategy.

Sarah Nicastro: Right.

Haroon Abbu: Because if they don't have digital, then it's very difficult to manage your business going forward.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. So what I said was, "You could call it the digital journey. You could call it the digital..." What was the other term I used? Something like that. The problem is-

Haroon Abbu: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: ... People hate all of those words. Do you know what I mean? There's always someone that says, "Oh, I'm sick of journey" or "I'm sick of transformation" or whatever. And at the end of the day, it really isn't so much what we call it, but a common understanding within the business that digital is an imperative part of the business and the strategy. Right? And I kind of laid it out into a continuum just based on the stories that I've heard and helped tell over a number of years of how companies tend to progress through that.

Haroon Abbu: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: I think honestly the definition and that common understanding can be a challenge in and of itself for businesses. What are some of the other ways you see companies struggling to really succeed with digital?

Haroon Abbu: Yeah. So digital, the classic definition that I use is it's the process of using digital technologies to create or modify business processes, culture, and customer experiences to meet the changing business and market requirements, right? So it's basically a fundamental change in the organization's mindset, systems, data, and tools, all that need to be together, needed to reposition the entire company and company's business model. So we, when I say we, I basically, it's the research teams that I work with at innovation departments of two prestigious universities. One is Business Analytics Initiative of North Carolina State University, which is headquartered here, which is located in Raleigh. And Innovation Department at RWTH Aachen University in Germany. So we first studied the phenomenon of digital transformation through an extensive survey that we designed called Patterns of Digitization survey. So this survey examined every aspect of digital and how it is implemented.

Haroon Abbu: We looked at over 500 companies, their business strategies, how they allocate resources, their design practices, et cetera. In addition to that technology angle, we also analyzed the people side of things, what we call soft skills-

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: ... How their leaders communicate, how they build trust in their teams, et cetera. And what we realized, or what we saw was that companies fall into two distinct groups. One is digitally developing companies. The other one is digitally mature. Far majority of those 500 companies where digitally developing versus digitally mature companies. The companies that focus mainly on technology rather than cultural and mindset aspects of digital are really struggling to implement it.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. That makes sense. Absolutely. And there's so many layers to this where you realize that it's also about incorporating new skill sets, right? So the role that you've taken on and in Bell and Howell is a really good example of dedicating more resource, energy, and effort to this practice. Right? And, sometimes I think companies struggle to figure out how they need to digitally advance without recognizing some of the new and different skill sets that are necessary within the organization to really go as far as they need to. Does that make sense?

Haroon Abbu: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Haroon Abbu: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: While also to your point, making sure that the incumbent people are understanding the evolution and bought into where the company is going and the introduction of different tools or different ways of measurement or different practices of making business decisions. All of the things that come from, not just the introduction of the digital tools, but as reflected in your title, the result of that is the data you didn't have access to before. And, the way that you can analyze the business in ways that you couldn't do prior. Right? So there's the idea of digital tools is really the beginning of this journey, not the finish line. Right?

Haroon Abbu: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Haroon Abbu: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: So if you look at a company that you consider digitally mature, who has done a really good job at this-

Haroon Abbu: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Sarah Nicastro: ... Versus someone earlier on in the process maybe a bit of a laggard or someone that still has quite a bit of work to do to digitally transform, what would you say would be the key differences that would sort of surface between those businesses?

Haroon Abbu: Yes. So we statistically validated these results. So the major driver for the differences between digitally mature and digitally developing companies is the differences in human dimensions of digital leaders, right? Digital mature organizations are managed differently. Their leaders align the human and financial resources with a strategy. They create an innovative culture, even within a Legacy environment like Bell and Howell, you create a collaborative environment, innovative environment, kind of entrepreneurial culture, promote open and transparent communication that enduring human traits of these leaders far outweigh the proficiency in the technology evolving field of information technology. Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: The knowledge of the technology is important. But it's also how you exhibit, how you promote the, that culture.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: How do you make digital part of your strategic priorities? It's the ability to engender trust of their employees. It's more about people than it's about digital technology.

Sarah Nicastro: Right.

Haroon Abbu: So it actually requires organizational changes to the customer centric that's backed by leaders.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: So that's pretty much what we found is that the leaders, they trust their teams. They put leadership in place. They hire the right skill sets. They build credibility. They tell stories of when they're successful or their failure, so that employees are properly aligned to the theme of digital.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay. Now, would you say that there are some, I guess, common trends in terms of as a company moves from digitally developing to digitally mature, if you look at the people part, right?

Haroon Abbu: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Sarah Nicastro: So, I understand what you're saying. The impact of leadership and how leadership views this transformation and understands its role in acting as a motivator and acting as a connector but not needing to act as a doer of all things. Right? And, really trusting the team. Would you say there's any commonalities, though, in the new skills or new roles that you see companies bringing in to help support and build this out?

Haroon Abbu: Yes. So, the key thing is when you hire new people, trying to have them understand the value about the data. So it's basically starting out with what is that you're trying to do with the digital.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: It's not a buzzword anymore.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: So what is your business goal? What is that your company try trying to do with digital transformation or digital tools? For example, take Bell and Howell. We were transforming a company from a manufacturing based mail production based company that was in rapid decline 10 years ago, five years ago, and create new business models. We were transforming ourselves into a technology enabled people powered service organization. And in order to do that, in order to service other OEMs in the robotic space and in other adjacent markets that we never handled before we needed new business models, including remote monitoring.

Haroon Abbu: And, we are able to connect because our existing Break-Fix model no longer works when we are servicing retail, one of the largest retailer with 5,000 stores.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: We had to do more with remote monitoring. So how do we do remote monitoring? We had to obviously put the digital backbone with IOT machine learning algorithms where analytics data is the underpinning.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: So we had to do that. And now, at this point at, we are remotely monitoring 98% of our service calls on this new click-and-collect, the retail focus product. And in order to do that, we need to win over our technicians. We need to start small and show them that, hey, there is value here.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: You're able to resolve an issue in 10 minutes. And the remote monitoring platform, the digital backbone we put together is going to tell you what the issue is.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: And then there is that contextual information. So you're able to fix a problem in 10 minutes, rather than having to roll the trucks and resolve, or take it for, three hours or four hours. We just cannot scale that model. Right?

Sarah Nicastro: Right.

Haroon Abbu: So they see that as sucks. So when they see that, okay, now I see the value of data. These guys are really modeling it, algorithm, using algorithms to minimize the attention needed to these machines.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: So when those machines are calling home, meaning our home office, creating a service call, alerting them, and then if they cannot fix it in the same field service management system, dispatching a technician based on geolocation, based on skill sets, et cetera.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: That's really a win. So they see that. And when they see that as successful, then the culture slowly starts to change.

Sarah Nicastro: Sure.

Haroon Abbu: So that, okay, there is innovation happening. There is value in data that I see, and then they are on your side. Right?

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: So yeah, technology played a key role, but do they need to know how we solve this using algorithms, machine learning, artificial intelligence? No, they don't need to know that.

Sarah Nicastro: No. Right.

Haroon Abbu: Yeah. They don't need to know the technology details. But just focusing on technology details is not going to win them over.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: So right from the top management, we need to make this strategically intentional-

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: ... Analytics and digital is strategically intentional. It's not because everybody else is doing.

Sarah Nicastro: Right.

Haroon Abbu: No it's part of our strategy. We need to make sure this happens. And then we talk about it. We talk more about it. We share the success stories.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: And then the whole organization becomes part of it.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Haroon Abbu: We are not there quite yet, but I think we are making progress.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: Same thing, we implemented KPIs, field service performance metrics. This is how we measure our success. This is how our OEMs measure our success.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: That's defined throughout the company. And we measure it in real time using the digital platform that we put together.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: So we see how those then cause improvements in our operational efficiencies, et cetera.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: So that's, it takes, it's a journey, as you said. It takes time.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: But digital for me is a lot more than technology. Technology is important. You need the right people to get to understand the technology.

Sarah Nicastro: Right.

Haroon Abbu: But it's bringing that, bringing people on board.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: It's changing their mindset.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: It's very critical for our success.

Sarah Nicastro: I think it's also, I agree a hundred percent, but I also think there's this kind of stumbling block. And so I mentioned that continuum, right?

Haroon Abbu: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: And there seems to be this stumbling block where, like you said, digital today is table stakes, right? So we're not talking about, should we and all of that stuff, right? It's a given.

Haroon Abbu: Right.

Sarah Nicastro: But I think you have some leaders who understand it's important and advocate for it. But where they get stuck is all of a sudden they have this wealth of data that they don't know what to do with. Right? So then it becomes, they've gotten a certain ways to the end game, right, which is really being able to not have digital tools for the sake of digital tools, but have digital tools for the sake of extracting the relevant insights and stories from the data to make better decisions or to solve more issues remotely or to create a new customer value proposition. Right?

Haroon Abbu: Yep. Yep.

Sarah Nicastro: And so from the analytics and the storytelling perspective, what is the best advice you have there for making sure that you are not just going down this path because you know you need to, but going down this path with the right outcomes in mind?

Haroon Abbu: Yeah, exactly. It's starting with the right outcome.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: What is the business objective, right?

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: What is the business objective? What are the business questions you're trying to answer with data and what digital tools you need to do that?

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: For example, in Bell and Howell case, if our goal is to provide or invent or innovate new business models to grow our service business because we are no longer servicing our own equipment, we are servicing 50 plus other OEM equipment. So we needed a new business model, which is remote monitoring, remote collaboration tools, et cetera. So, that's our business model. We needed to innovate the business model from traditional Break-Fix to more on the predictive, prescriptive side, right? So, that was our business model innovation. So in order to do that, what did we need? We needed a digital backbone, right?

Haroon Abbu: Which takes these machine log information in real-time from these machines. And then we put together IOT based platform that built a model on, okay, if this and this, the error logs happen, this is your likely action. Basically, intelligent with algorithms and then connect that to our field service management system.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: So, that service call gets created. And then it's visualized service call can be closed. It can visualize using Tableau platform, et cetera, et cetera. So, that was our business need. And that's how we solved using digital tools.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: The second thing is we needed to improve our operational efficiency, which is one of the main starting block in any continuum. For example, that you're talking about focus on your operational efficiencies. In order to do that, we need to come up with some KPIs. We are out of this organization, but we did not really have a commonly communicated, commonly defined performance metrics.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: And so we defined that based on some of the best practices. And then we developed a method to measure those metrics in real time for each OEM. And also for every technician, what's his tech utilization? What his first time fixed rate? What is his call, close rate? All that kind of stuff, so we can provide a scorecard with the idea that if we improve that we'll obviously achieve some operational efficiencies and then we'll also be able to present that to our OEMs. So they can also see how we are improving towards the whole.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Haroon Abbu: So yeah. So all in all it comes down to, what's your main objective?

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: Which is tied to a strategy.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Haroon Abbu: You have to tie that to the strategy and then go get the data. You may not have all the data. Or whatever data we think we have been collecting may be useless.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: Right? So define the problem and then see if you have data. If you don't have data, put systems in place where we can collect the data and then improve, refine the data, so that will ultimately lead us to operational improvement or in the case of remote monitoring, et cetera, new business models.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: That should be some of the analytics driven path towards digital. But analytics driven path for improvement are new business models using digital technologies and tools.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. Alright. So speaking of data, in the book, you did this research and so you had this analysis of digital based on the statistics that you found.

Haroon Abbu: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: But you also incorporated interviews. So tell me a little bit about the importance and the value you found in talking directly with other digital leaders to put the content for the book together.

Haroon Abbu: Yeah. So as you said, we had compelling statistics based on the studies that we have done. But we wanted to go and talk to successful digital leaders.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: So we interviewed 15 digital leaders in the U.S., as well as, in Germany. We know they're successful based on their track record. These are proven companies with proven successes in digital transformation. So they included CEOs and Chief Data Officers, business unit leaders from automobiles, medical equipment, IT services, and lot of different fields. So, these interviews showed us that the strength of their leadership based on what they told us comes as much from their personal character, as it does from their competencies to deploy digital technologies. So most of these leaders actually model human dimensions to build trust in their organization.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: Most of the Chief Data Officers, what we have found is the average tenure is two to three years. So they need to make sure, and CDO roles are pretty much recent, so they're basically have to work together with a lot of other Cs, a lot of other business here leaders, we call them their boundary spans boundary, spanning capabilities.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: So they need to be able to work with multiple departments and multiple people. So they need to have growth mindset. They need to have storytelling capabilities, et cetera. And after talking to these 15 digital leaders, we methodically, using content analysis, actually developed a scale to measure human dimensions of digital leaders.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: So there are 15 human dimensions that came out of these studies as well as interviews. And actually there is a self-assessment tool on our website patternsofdigitization.com, where digital leaders can actually go and take that survey. And it actually shows them how they are doing on various dimensions like storytelling or ethical use of AI or growth mindset or humility, integrity, et cetera.

Haroon Abbu: It shows them where they are lacking so that they can measure themselves or they can have their team measure them. So that's part of our research, continuing research. They're also, we are also in the process of developing some tools that will help them improve their skills that are in deficit.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: Sometimes these are, these seem to be trivial, but they're not really trivial. It matters a lot when you are implementing a major company wide initiative. How do you really make sure that they're successful? And as you know, most of the times technology, yeah. Implementation of technology is one thing.

Sarah Nicastro: Right.

Haroon Abbu: Even field service management system, for example. But it's after that, what happens? How is it internalized by the people, by the employees in the organization?

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. What would you say, Haroon, has been the hardest? Personally, Larry Blue, the CEO of Bell and Howell has been on the podcast before as well. And I think the company has a really cool story of how you really reshape the identity of the business. It is a really compelling story. That being said, I'm sure it wasn't easy. So, looking back on that journey, what would you say was the hardest part of digitally transforming the Legacy Bell and Howell business?

Haroon Abbu: Yeah. Again, I've been here for 12 years. The hardest part is getting people on board. Right?

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: That's the hardest part because in a company that has a history dating back to, I guess, 1906, there have been several iterations. There are a lot of employees here with long, long tenure. So they've seen everything, right?

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: The thing is, why is this different? The same as anything else, so we have to show the value in what we are doing. That's more important. Plus, the support and direction from leaders like Larry Blue makes a big difference. Right?

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: So one of the thing that we have learned is, as I said, when we are successful in making a change to the business model, remote monitoring is a perfect example, people automatically buy in. So next time they ask, okay, can we get this?

Haroon Abbu: So that becomes part of the culture. The other thing is, when we work with multiple machines, even our engineering department, they would write a machine log like a log file in for a machine, before until we started this initiative, they would just write it, thinking that nobody's going to look at it.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: Now they understand that analytics actually is taking that piece of error log that they're writing on the machine to drive remote monitoring, to drive when to dispatch a technician. After a couple of years now, engineers are fully on board with that.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: When they design a new system, like the one we recently did, it's a grocery pickup machine. When they did it, it's completely designed for serviceability with machine logs, knowing that, analyst actually worked very well together on that initiative so that we can, they will write a machine log, et cetera, and even machine log, et cetera, write it in a way that we can use it for predictive and prescriptive maintenance.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: So that took time. It didn't happen overnight.

Sarah Nicastro: Right.

Haroon Abbu: So as people see how you're successful or how analytics can be used in multiple ways to help the company, to help the service organization, to eventually help technicians and employees, that will make it different. So, we had some obstacles, but I think we are at a point where we have slowly started to change the mindset and we are seeing some of their successes.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Yeah. That's really cool. And I think, in your role and you mentioned the role of the Chief Data Officer, the idea of someone who's harmonizing things is very important, right? Because one of the biggest barriers to success we see with digital transformation is it, companies attempting to do it in a very siloed way right? Which is kind of the opposite of what needs to be. Right? And so, I think that's an important point as well is to really think about not just how imperative it is to overall strategy, but how important it is to have that consistency and that collaborative view on how it can happen.

Haroon Abbu: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. Last question for today, Haroon. If you were to summarize, some key takeaways for folks listening on this digital journey, what would you leave folks with?

Haroon Abbu: Yeah, I would say that people are the key to digital transformation. Yes, bring in the right technologies. But you know, if you embrace Cloud, you can actually scale up or scale down technology elasticity of the Cloud gives you that opportunity to adopt these new technologies as you, as business conditions change.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: And secondly, start small and get some early success and always try to build trust in the organization that way the benefits of digital can be felt across the organization. Lastly, as far as the industry is concerned, I know your audience is field service organizations. My take is that the data landscape, it's probably not as mature or as some other industries. So there is a lot more potential to innovate faster beyond remote monitoring. There's a lot more opportunity to use AI and ML. So, for example, most of the field people who are in the field service organization, Field Service USA conference that you and I attended, we mostly the operations side.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: So I strongly believe that there should be more analytics representation, so analytics folks don't just work in isolation.

Sarah Nicastro: Right.

Haroon Abbu: They need to hear the real-time problems.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: They need to hear it from the people who are running these service operations, right?

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Haroon Abbu: So it's always good idea to have that kind of balance so analytics can become main ingredient of success for field service organizations.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative). For sure. Yeah. That makes sense. And, and I agree and I appreciate you coming and sharing your insights. I think it's a huge topic. There's probably a lot of different areas we could dig into in terms of the storytelling and all of that stuff. But, I like the point that it's just as much about people as it is about technology. I think it's a really important point. So thank you for coming on and sharing and, Haroon, if folks want to check out the book Trust, where can they find that?

Haroon Abbu: The website is patternssofdigitization.com.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay.

Haroon Abbu: There's a link to the book from that website. Also, there's more research in that website and also self- assessment tool where you can measure the human dimensions of digital leaders.

Sarah Nicastro: Excellent. Okay. So patternssofdigitization.com is where you can find the book. Haroon, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it.

Haroon Abbu: Thank you, Sarah, for doing this and your thought leadership in this space. Thank you.

Sarah Nicastro: Thank you. You can find more by visiting us at futureoffieldserviceref.ifs.com. You can also find us on LinkedIn as well as Twitter @TheFutureOfFS. The Future of Field Service podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thank you for listening.

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Sharing Strategies to Close the Skills Gap

January 12, 2022 | 29 Mins Read

Sharing Strategies to Close the Skills Gap

Sarah facilitates a discussion with Cedrick Rochet, BU Operations Manager at Intel Corporation; Newland McKelvey, Core Delivery Director at Fujitsu; Krish Venkataraman, Head of Global Operations, Transformation & Customer Success Asia Pacific, India & Japan at Hewlett Packard Enterprise; and Kshitiz Agarwal, and independent consultant about the unique and creative approaches their organizations are taking to improve recruiting, hiring, onboarding, engagement, and retention.

Sarah Nicastro: Thank you, James. Hello, everyone. Happy to be here with you all today with a wonderful panel. We're going to have a discussion on this panel about the skills gap, the labor shortage, the talent gap, you hear it referred to in many of these ways. And talking about some of the actions companies can take, both on the people side and on the technology side, to address this challenge. So, as James said, my name is Sarah Nicastro, I am a part of IFS and I actually run a thought leadership resource called Future of Field Service. So I interview folks regularly about their business transformation journeys and am thrilled to be here with four great guests today. So I'm going to ask you all to introduce yourselves briefly. Cedrick, do you mind going first?

Cedrick: Yeah, sure, Sarah. So hello, everyone. My name is Cedrick, I'm currently working at Intel Corporation, so it's a processor company. And specifically in the branch of Intel called Internet of Things Group for Autonomous Driving Cars. So all the latest fancy stuff there. And so a little bit about me, so I have basically 10 years in engineering in the last 10 years, much more on the business side where currently I am running the operations of the business units.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay.

Cedrick Rochet: So that's it.

Sarah Nicastro: Thanks for being here. Newland?

Newland McKelvey: Hello. Hello everyone, my name's Newland McKelvey. I'm core delivery director of Fujitsu, so responsible for day-to-day delivery of the managed services that are provided to a big, major public sector body. And actually prior to that, was responsible for the setup of trader support service, which is the customs intermediary supporting organizations dealing with the sort of outcomes of Brexit need for those things to be handled in a new way. And I've been with the company a few years, actually, James, we've just been speaking, we were talking last week and I realized I joined Fujitsu before James was born. So one of those quirks of life, but yeah, so glad to be here.

Sarah Nicastro: Excellent. Krish?

Krish Venkataraman: Hello everyone. My name is Krish Venkataraman. I'm part of Hewlett Packard Enterprise, which you know needs no introduction, those in the IT industry. And I'm looking after the Asia Pacific and Japan customer operations, global operations, and the customer experience. Part of that, that's my area of focus. I'm based in Singapore, like what Newland said, maybe I joined this company before James was born as well. So that was back in 1988, so it's a long time. Thank you, very happy to be here. I look forward to a great session. Thank you.

Sarah Nicastro: Thank you. All right. Kshitiz?

Kshitiz Agarwal: Thanks Sarah. So hello everyone. My name is Kshitiz Agarwal and I'm currently working as a self-employed consultant where I'm helping small businesses with their clean energy transition. I'm a former site service director with Mitsubishi Power. And one part of my role is to develop the teams for these energy transition and prepare our training strategy. So I'm really looking forward to learning from all of you and sharing some insight. Thank you.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay, great. All right, so as James said in the introduction, this recording is going to live on for eternity, so we're going to make sure we make it a good talk. So I want to start off just by everyone weighing in a bit on how is the labor shortage or skills gap impacting each of your businesses. Okay, so let's just kind of level set with what is this issue meaning to you in your organization. So we can just go around again, if that's okay? Cedrick, if you could start?

Cedrick Rochet: So yeah, so currently labor shortage is quite an interesting topic at Intel because every world area has actually different dynamics. So for what, Intel being based in the West Coast, we have tremendous talent pressure on the West Coast of the US. And also in quite specific spots where you have other IT or technology companies, such as Ireland or Munich area or Singapore also, I mean, quite a few spots, Malaysia, for example, where we have competitors that are present also because we build the ecosystem around as we grow, there are also factories around ours over time. And so essentially right now, it is a little bit of a challenge for skills, specifically experienced individuals. And at every levels, from the engineer that is starting until the senior vice president that are being taken from one competitor to the other. So it's touching us at every level.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. All right. And Newland, what about you?

Newland McKelvey: Again, with Fujitsu, and sort of echoing Cedrick, it's a global issue for a company like ourselves as well, where we've got global delivery centers as well as regional centers. And the experience and skills shortage is impacting across the board. And that can be in deep technical specialism or even in more generic skills, like experienced project managers in development or service setup and transitions, equally down to simple things like, or more simple things, like actually even standing up a support center now. There's just such a huge demand across the base and a lot of competition out there. And it's getting the right people in, but equally retaining and actually encouraging people from years ago instead of going to IT, I find ourselves doing other things that we'll probably talk about later.

Sarah Nicastro: Sure. Yep. Okay, Krish?

Krish Venkataraman: Yep. This is great question. And good input also from Cedrick and Newland. The way I look at it is also I used to wonder at times on the one side, we will take any countries' numbers. They'll say there is X number of people unemployed, at the same time, there are Y number of openings, roles that are there that they can't find the people. So be it in any industry, be it in manufacturing, technology, customer service industries, anywhere, the gap more I see that as the fit between what we need and what we have. And whether the people are building to see themselves as a different person. For example, there's a one quote I wanted to share with the team. It was predicted in 2012, hey, you're going to have two sets of jobs, the jobs that somebody will tell the computer what to do, and then the jobs that the computer will tell them what to do.

Krish Venkataraman: Okay. So these two divides, however, we all know in our whole day, different times, we act in different roles. There is one task I do what my computer tells me to do, and 10 minutes later, I'm doing a task that I tell the computer what to do. So it's not always this one side or the other. Now but the challenge here is how do we accept that? How do we internalize that? And how do we help the people recognize that and play that correctly? That's where I generally see some gaps as well, because I may have good set of candidates, good set of pool of people, but they are not having that right skill set and right training to do the right thing. So how do we bridge that gap is definitely a thing we'll be talking further, but that's how I see as the gap.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. All right. And Kshitiz?

Kshitiz Agarwal: So basically, I'm from energy industry. So I had a little bit different perspective and different set of a challenge. So right now, because the energy industry is going through the massive transition. So it is a kind of an imbalance between the skilled workforce, as well as adaptation to the required or new skills due to digitalization. And this is happening, from my experience, this is happening because of two reason. One is specifically because of aging workforce. And secondly, it's because they are not enough new or young people coming into the industry, especially to the blue collar job that had created massive gap between the industry. So as Krish said, it's the right matching the skills as well as matching what is available in the market is right. But at the same time, I think the perception of the industry or perception of the job taken toward the market or toward globally basically, is also important in this, play a key role in the skill gap.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. So I'm looking, as we're talking, I'm looking at my long list of questions and realizing there's no way we're going to get through all of them. There's a lot to dig into related to this topic and it's one of my favorite topics to discuss. So instead I'm going to try and make sure we get to four questions at least. And then if we have time, we'll come back to some of the others. So the first thing that I think is interesting is really having a conversation around what we're calling this issue. So you hear it referred to as the labor shortage, the talent gap, the skills gap, the experience gap. And those are all really different things. And so I think one of the first questions we have to ask ourselves, for each of our individual businesses, is what is this problem to us? Which of those is it?

Sarah Nicastro: So what I mean by that is, I think historically... Now we're on a panel with people from different industries, different geographies, so we have to kind of look at things from a high level. But I think historically, most organizations, for most roles, are accustomed to hiring based on experience. And so I think one of the biggest issues with this topic is that I don't know that I believe we have a skills gap or a talent gap. I think there are people with skills and there are people with talents, they just may not have the experience that we, as organizations, are accustomed to be able to hire based on. And so I did a presentation on this topic a few weeks ago and it was around controlling the controllables. Because the labor shortage, the actual statistics around how many people are available to hire in any given location, isn't something you can necessarily control, but your perspective on this as an experience gap versus a talent gap versus a skills gap, those are things you can control.

Sarah Nicastro: And I think the first thing we need to do is take a look at our historical recruiting and hiring practices and ask ourselves: Do we need to adjust to today? So if we're always looking for people with X number of years experience, is there a way to achieve the same outcome by looking for different criteria in the folks that we're looking to hire? So the first thing I wanted to talk about is just your thoughts on that and any you've made within the business, or have thought about making within the business, to sort of shift from looking for experience, to looking for the skills, traits, characteristics, abilities you need, and finding ways to provide some of that experience. So that's the first point. Does anyone want to volunteer to go first?

Kshitiz Agarwal: So yeah, I can start. First of all, the thing is we cannot generalize the skill experience and the talent. It depends on the geographies, it depends on the industry. In some industry, it is required to have more experience than other, because it might be life in that situation. So we cannot generalize that. But I think from the industry where I am right now, traditionally and currently as well, the priority is always given to experience than young members. But because of this gap that we are facing between the aging and the young people right now, companies have started looking at the different perspective. One of the perspectives is as simple as looking at the talent or new workforce from the global perspective, rather than geography location. That is the one way they're tackling it. Another way they're tackling it is engaging to the indirect recruitment process, which is more they get engaged with the new graduates right from the time in their university, and then recruit them and train them.

Kshitiz Agarwal: Apart from that, from my experience, there's... We all heard about the apprenticeship program, especially in Germany. Those programs actually, over the period in history, they prove themselves very, very effective way, especially in mechanical industry or electrical industry. And I believe more and more organization right now are coming up with these program, apprenticeship program and the graduate programs, to bridge that gap so that they can train the people or train the new employee right from the base foundation level to the place where they need them to be at to bridge this gap.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, that's a really good point. And I certainly was not suggesting we just put people that are not capable of a certain job in role. It was exactly what you're saying. How do we become more creative about ways to sort of farm talent instead of just looking for it ready-made. So things like what you're saying are exactly my point, which is it really comes down to, as organizations, we may need to do more work than we've done historically because we just don't have a wealth of people to bring into the business that have 5, 10 years’ experience. So we have to look at how do we give them the training, the experience, the time they need to be capable, but take some more responsibility for doing that. Yeah, go ahead Newland.

Newland McKelvey: Yeah. So I was going to actually just going to build on what's has been said, because I think, in terms of apprentice programs, grad programs, et cetera, those have all proved, across many industries, including IT, whatever, really, really beneficial. But one thing that we've been doing over the last few years, and not just ourselves but I've seen it elsewhere, is when we look to recruit or appoint new roles, we don't just look within, I'll call it, the professional communities for want of better description, but actually look even internally outside that. For instance, so when you're bringing somebody, and I've seen examples where someone from a finance background has become a manager of a development team over time. And the reason for that is that the good thing is that they know the company, they maybe got a few years to understand, if you like, the mechanics of the organization. So they don't have that as a learning curve.

Newland McKelvey: Then supporting those people from sort of those diverse non-technical backgrounds, who have good management skills, to actually become managers in an area where we desperately need someone come along and really help build teams, et cetera. Where they've got the skills, it's just bringing the technical level up as well to support that. And I think that's helped us several times in the past where we've had gaps.

Sarah Nicastro: And a lot of the conversations that I've had on this topic, Newland, kind of echo that approach, which is if you find the right, whatever you want to call them, core skills, soft skills, you can provide the technical knowledge needed in many cases to compliment that. So that kind of opens up doors for you to look in different industries, different areas, things like that. Also, I recorded a podcast on this topic at an event I was at last week and one of the things, I think Cedrick you said, this isn't a challenge for just entry level workforce, it's a challenge all the way up. But one of the points that came up in that conversation is that a lot of younger workers, they don't come into a role and plan to stay there for 20 years. They want progression. So if you can kind of restructure the way you look at your recruiting and hiring practices and figure out how to map them up within the business, it gives them the progression and growth that they want, but also helps you when comes to filling roles above just the entry level.

Sarah Nicastro: So Cedrick, what have you seen in terms of ways that that Intel has adapted here?

Cedrick Rochet: So Intel is a very interesting company. Before being at Intel, I was working at Emerson Electric, which was a very industrial company. And now being at Intel, I see a very culture shift, mostly, maybe because Intel is West Coast based where also ecosystem and the startups is over there. But actually as much as an industrial company, you have people that were staying 5, 10 years on a job, when I was a younger professional, I was seeing that. Nowadays, when I am at Intel, actually, you see, well, the person is expected to stay maybe three, maximum five years on the role before moving up. Now what's happening is that also, I have to be honest, Intel has a huge competitive advantage is that we have a huge skills and talent pool within our employees. I mean, we are a rich company.

Cedrick Rochet: And to give you an idea, the quality department of Intel is about a thousand people, 800 of them have PhDs. So just when we speak about talent pool, that's what we need. To have people with PhD and MBAs, standard. You cross them everywhere almost. So when you take these people, you can almost have them going from one job to the other with too much problematic. Now that said, you still have to retain these talents. And it's not because you have great foundations, as I was saying, but you need also to close the talent or the gap that is a problem that you have to solve on that moment. And compared to other companies, at Intel, we have an internal volunteering program. So how does it work?

Cedrick Rochet: And also this is also coming from the West Coast, it's basically you have for over five years, you accumulate vacation days and at some point you go on sabbatical. Meaning that for five weeks, in a batch, you go out and when you come back, you still have a job. Now what's happening is during these five weeks, somebody needs to take care of the job. And so we create what we call GIGS where somebody that has nothing to do or is interested maybe in this role, can apply so as a temporary gap filler, if you want, and test the job itself. And maybe as a person moves on to the next job, basically somebody is kind of seeing what's going on in that role and has to be experienced. I mean, five week is not tremendous experience, he's not going to break anything really. But still you get a look and feel about what it means or are you feeling ready for taking on this job, maybe in another organization.

Cedrick Rochet: I mean, Intel, we have the, the advantage of the size. So we have a huge internal job market that address many, many people. And so in order to fill these gaps of talents gaps that we might have, this is one of the way, by doing this so-called GIGS, temporary work that is outside of your standard job that can help on filling that gap. Something that I've never seen in any other companies that I've been into before Intel.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. And you bring up really good points, Cedrick, which is you mentioned the approach at Intel is far different than that of Emerson. And so I think you have that a lot with companies that are more on the modern, innovative type of culture versus something that has more legacy. And I think that's where these type of conversations become very important, because that doesn't mean that someone with a completely different culture can just mimic what Intel is doing. But I think this is an area where companies need to look at what others are doing and maybe just have some thoughts. So it doesn't need to be a blueprint for how they go back and do it, but just some different, new, fresh ideas to bring in and to try some different things.

Sarah Nicastro: Because I think we can all agree that this problem demands more creativity than perhaps we've leveraged before. So Krish, I want to come to you and ask certainly if you have any insight on kind of where you're finding new candidates, that's fine. But the other part of sort of the recruiting side is for new places to find folks and maybe changing the criteria upon which you use to hire a bit, but also making sure that you are speaking the language of the people you're trying to hire and making sure that the roles are appealing to the candidates that you are addressing today. So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about any changes that have been made or any work that's been done to make sure that as you're recruiting, you're offering an appealing opportunity for people that you're looking to bring into the business.

Krish Venkataraman: Great. Thanks Sarah. So let me start off answering that in a couple of parts. First one, the way we look at things is, as you know, Hewlett Packard Enterprise operates in 190 countries. So there's no one size fits all for us. The challenges are different in different geographies. So what we are doing as a starting point is see a need to rebrand the way we sell a role to the candidates. What appeals in different geographies, we need to be cognizant of. For example, in some geographies, the people want to know how am I contributing to the vision of the company, how am I part of the success story, how am I part of the community contribution that we are making. So that's very important for them. We also want to take the value properly. It's not just a job, it's not just a role.

Krish Venkataraman: We take the total value proposition of being part of Hewlett Packard Enterprise in different dimensions. So it's beyond just compensation and benefits. Looking at the career advancement, work environment, culture of the organization, and also the ability for an individual to shape the way they want to take their career development, personal development, forward in any direction they want. So that culture of the organization promotes that very well. People could walk across and do a shadow assignment in another part of the organization, no barrier. People could ask for a stretch assignment. Somebody could be maybe in finance, but they want to go and do a stretch assignment in marketing, vice versa, or some other areas, even in geographic stretch assignment. So all those facilities are there for the people to take advantage of that. And it also helps them to shape, determine, take control of their own career path and career direction.

Krish Venkataraman: And nobody's telling them what to do, but the options are there. So that's the real important cultural shift and the framework that we have in place to support that. Now in terms of how we look for also candidates or also, we need a good diverse set of candidates. So we we talk about the diversity equity and inclusion. So we want to make sure that that is practiced at all levels of the company. And actually, it's also part of my key focus area. Every year I measured on how many of those mix I am managing and continuously nurturing those mix of different things. It's not just the gender diversity, cultural diversity, and various other forms that we do want differentiate between how people want to express themselves or how they want to identify themselves, but how they can be part of the team and complement each other.

Krish Venkataraman: And we have a thing called Employee Resource Group, which is an internal community that's really, really supported right from the CEO level, to grow this further. At the same time, we also shifted our focus a little bit, we're using automation, for example. Quite often, this, what you call, unconscious biased comes in in the way we are writing something, on the way we are expressing something. So using a lot of automation to identify them very early, filter them out. For example, the way a job description is written should be very, very neutral, location neutral and agenda neutral, all sorts of neutrality being brought in consciously into that. Even the employee value proposition, all the external internal communication, there is a lot of effort and focus also drives that. And people feel that, hey, I'm part of this organization that do not differentiate this and values diversity. So we see this definitely helping both.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. So you brought up a couple really good points. And I did a podcast a while back with the woman who runs talent globally at Tetra Pak. And it was all about the move to outcomes-based recruiting and hiring. So I think it's a great episode for anyone to go and look up, but it's this idea of, well, there's more to it than just job descriptions. But what you just said about job descriptions, there's this idea of are we putting words or things in here that are going to have people leave themselves out that may be a really good fit? So are we limiting ourselves? How do we kind of get to the root of what is the outcome of this role and leave it with strictly things related to that so that you get a good broad pool of diverse candidates to apply?

Sarah Nicastro: The other thing is this idea of, and this probably sounds obvious, but you would be shocked how many companies aren't doing it, which is when is the last time you updated or revisited your employee value proposition. Do you know what is important to candidates that are coming into the workforce right now? It's not just about money, it's not just about collecting a paycheck. They want to feel heard, they will want to be empowered, they want to feel they're making a difference, they want to feel a part of something bigger than themselves, they want opportunities for career development, they want flexibility. So starting to look at are we providing those things and are we articulating that we're providing those things. Because what matters to candidates today is different than it was 5, 10 years ago.

Sarah Nicastro: So this kind of segues us into the next topic I want to talk about, which is retention. So Cedrick, if you can kind of start off and just share. This is kind of a natural segue because you bring people in with sort of this value proposition. And then it becomes a game of making sure that they are engaged, empowered, that they're having a fulfilling employee experience so that they want to stay. So what's your take, Cedrick, on retention?

Cedrick Rochet: So retention is quite, I mean, it's quite a vast topic. And over the years, essentially, to keep employees, companies are, I mean, at least at Intel, we are trying many different areas and trying to tailor, actually, to where even to the person is in his life cycle. From the young engineer that comes into Intel, that wants to revolutionize a world, that has plenty of energy and coding and things like this that wants to do this, to the younger adult that, I mean, later adult that wants to start a family. And so we have programs such as parental leaves, where basically I want to take care of my kids, they are bored and so on and so, but without the fear of losing your job at the same time. Then for later, when you are more experienced, then basically it might be going into an expert track or into a leadership track.

Cedrick Rochet: So you have, for example at Intel, for that, your salary... I mean, many times, and if I go back to my Emerson Electric experience, many times if you want grow, it was just go up the ladder, more people you manage, the bigger you are, da, da, da, da, da, da. At Intel, actually, there's a difference between a leadership track, which is exactly it's the traditional, the more people you manage, the better, da, da, da, da, da, da, and you get the salary increase. But there is also the engineering track, so basically you become a specialist from the young engineer to a principal engineer to a fellow who is on standards committee that is influence standards directions at the national level. And the great thing is actually the same thing as a leadership. It doesn't have the same name, but essentially you have the same grade, we call that grade internally, but you can be a senior vice president and just be a simple engineer, but because you are basically helping on steering committees for international standards, you are at the same level or considered at the same level of grade as maybe a senior vice president.

Cedrick Rochet: So by creating these two possibilities for more experienced people to grow into what they aspire, basically you get much more retention and you adapt to basically the different stages that a person might be. And of course, I mean, and you have plenty of internal trainings, that is quite standard in every company. You have another thing that actually, and a little bit provocative, that we are doing also at Intel that I've never seen before, is what we call returnship. So basically when a person left the job because they want to raise their kids and come back 10 or 15 years later saying, well, now my kids are grown up, they don't need me anymore, so I would like to go back to the workforce. Well, you still need the period of adaptation and we call that returnship where we allow people that have been potentially 10 or 15 years out of the workforce to get started again. And this is something that I've not seen in many other companies that have been to.

Sarah Nicastro: I love that idea, Cedrick, especially because when you look at the impact that COVID had on women in the workforce, and I mean just how we need to look for ways to help and to build bridges for them back in and all of those things. I'm conscious that we are going to run out of time and James is going to get mad at me because we haven't gotten to questions. Newland, so here's what we're going to do. James is going to bear with us for just a moment. Newland, if you can answer the same question about retention and then for Krish and for Kshitiz, I have one other question and then we'll get to the audience questions. So Newland, what are your thoughts on retention?

Newland McKelvey: So for people coming into the company new, we've set a strategy that retention starts from onboarding, and that onboarding starts right at the first interview, your first of the recruiting engagements, and continues throughout. So by the time somebody lands in the company, they've already experienced both interface with their management, they'll have a body, they'll have had different events, and that's the external recruitment. Equally, going back to Cedrick's analogy of moving people about internally, we do have sort of something similar, it's called career pathways. If someone's keen then wants to move into a role from that, moving role internally can be quite a step change. And again, it's a similar principles, because you don't want someone coming into a team and finding it's the wrong role.

Newland McKelvey: So the first thing is, is what Cedrick's outlined, equally as well is then making sure that onboarding process and induction and everything else really works for people. And then the final thing is also the concept of career, which Krish and others have outlined, it is broader than the vertical. It's very much a you're looking for cone-shaped people where they've got a number of areas of expertise and more general knowledge, but rewarding that as well and recognizing that, so it's not just a vertical hierarchical pay and reward, but actually rewarding and what they bring and the outcomes that we talked about earlier, trying on build that.

Sarah Nicastro: And this is where the complexity comes in. Because you can understand what's important to your talent pool that you're looking to hire, and you can tell them that you're doing all of those things, but if they come in and that is not the reality, then you have no chance of keeping them. So you have to be marrying the work on the recruiting side with really making sure that you're evolving the employee experience and offering people a rewarding place to be so that they do want to stay. Okay, all right, we're going to try and do this in two minutes. You guys each get one minute and I want to ask... Krish, we'll start with you and then we'll move right over. I want to ask what role has technology played in alleviating, assist, helping with this challenge?

Krish Venkataraman: Okay. So in terms of technology, the basic thing, for example, let me give an example of automation. When we use automation to redesign the workflow and the operating model becomes so elegant makes the flow much more agile, collaborative, and also nonhierarchical, and it empowers the people at the right point to make the right decision so that there is no need to go back and forth. So clearly the technology has played such a big role here and it can be leveraged for many other areas in a similar way. And we find that to match that... So what does that mean is we need education people with different set of background, with a different set of knowledge and skills, to take the full advantage of that. One of the challenge we always find is even though the technology is there, the people are not really ready to go on and take full advantage of that. So if we have that cultural shift and the technology enablement with the right people at the right the skillset, I think we can the best out of that.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Okay. And Kshitiz, your thoughts on technology?

Kshitiz Agarwal: So technology is playing a wider role right now, especially in mitigating this skill gap, what we're talking since the beginning. So for example, I was involved in developing a training program using AR and VR, augmented reality and virtual reality, to train the people on the health and safety side while working on the site. And similarly, there's also in energy industry specifically, there's an increased use of robotics, whether it's a remote control or autonomous robotics to do those job which are not required a human interaction. And not only it bridges the gap, but it also makes a safe working environment, which is more important at this moment. And from the point of view of the retention, again, technology is again making a huge difference as Krish rightly said. It bridges the gap, that hierarchical gap between the different people. And it enables different people from one role to easily shift from one role to another role and one job to another role, which they consider as a progression in their career path. So, yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. So I always look at technology on the tactical side, the strategic side. So tactically, what are the ways we can leverage technology to help alleviate areas of this challenge? So is our current workforce optimized and fully utilized. So when you look at scheduling and things of that nature, are we appropriately using the people we do have? And then automation, are there aspects of work that are not value-add that we can automate to allow more capacity for our workforce to do really important things? I think a lot about knowledge capture and knowledge management. You have such a volume of expertise leaving the workforce, are you capturing that knowledge so it can continue to be leveraged? And then the point got brought up about augmented reality and different training tools to get people able faster to get into the workforce and to be impactful.

Sarah Nicastro: On the strategic side, Krish, I completely agree and it's obviously a completely different conversation. But the idea of what new roles need to exist? What reskilling and upskilling do we need to do to make sure that we're leveraging technology strategically as a part of our value proposition? Okay, so James, come on in and yell at me for going over. And I'm sorry, but it's such a good conversation, we should have allotted more time.

James: Yeah, no, don't worry. I'm not one to get mad. I'm not going to shout anyone. Let you guys do your thing. That was great. Yeah, I'm just conscious of our next speaker who's probably waiting in the little pre-check and worried that I'm not there. So we've got time for one question I think. We'll give hard stop after five minutes, just so I don't panic her. So question here from Christine: There are any recommendations as to the split you should have between retained employees versus outsourced contractors resourced to deliver digital innovation?

Cedrick Rochet: I will take this one if I may, because this is, actually, I think I would say it's a hot topic, not in every areas of the company, but in this. And most of the time what we are doing is that we are looking at whatever we are doing is the position a long-term. And what we mean by long-term is three years. So will be there jobs to be done for the next three years for a person to come on board. If yes, we open a job. If not, then we look at a contractor, contingency worker. And some areas of Intel, we have very few contingency workers. In others, which is much more customer project based with very short time turnarounds, then basically we use much more because we cannot predict really what is the next skills set the customers will ask us to support them.

Cedrick Rochet: And so it's very much becomes very customer oriented adaptation. But it doesn't mean that at a strategic level, we see... I mean, contingency workers or outsource workers cost a lot more. So there is also other times, strategic reviews internally to try to find the right balance. To be honest, we haven't found it yet. We look for it, but all the time trying to balance between the business objectives on one side, but also having a much more stable head count or strategic gaps that we might need. And it's always a balance between the two. And for that one, yeah, we try to do our best, but sometimes it's not that easy with business and our expenses.

James: Anyone have anything they want to add there just quickly?

Newland McKelvey: The one thing I would add is that odd enough to sort of let the lens that Cedrick applied slightly different in our type of organization, where we're actually looking at whether it's an area where we're growing, expanding, versus one where if we have a gap, but reality it's a legacy area. And if it's wherever we're growing and expanding, we want to bring in very specialist skills to help recruit, retain, and actually develop our own internal workforce. But the ultimate aim will be that. Whereas if it's legacy, we'll focus more on moving some of those people on and using contractor, external staff to sort of supplement. So we've got that sort of moving wheel of people internally as well. Krish, I'll let you speak.

Krish Venkataraman: Thank you. Quickly, one area we look at it, James, is transformation. Organizational transformation. Organizations go through continuous transformation. It's not always that the organization may have the right skills, knowledge internally to do the transformation. They need that external help to do the transformation, and then the internal core organization can continue to move onto the new platform and operate, but the need to shift them to move that. That's where I think the external sourcing would be very helpful.

James: Brilliant. Thank you guys. I would love to let everyone else chat for another few minutes, but I'm afraid we have to call it day there. All I'd say is when we overrun a bit like this, it's always suggestive of a great conversation. So thanks so much guys. I'm sure you'll all stay in contact and likewise. Sorry to anyone who didn't get their question answered. If you are going to the agenda tab, you can find each of us speakers there. You can message them directly. Or you can put them in the event feed, or just email them to me and I'll pass them on, you'll definitely get your questions answered. So for now, just go ahead and exit this stream. We're back in 10 minutes for our final session of the day, with Rainy from Nokia. I'll see you all then. And thanks to our panelists.

Sarah Nicastro: Thank you everyone.

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2021 Highlights and 2022 Headlines

January 5, 2022 | 10 Mins Read

2021 Highlights and 2022 Headlines

Sarah starts the New Year off with her recap of the highlights of 2021 and a look ahead at the topics she’s excited to dig into in 2022.

Sarah Nicastro: Welcome to the Future of Field Service Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro.

Happy New Year! When this episode airs, it will be the first week of 2022. As you can tell by the bits of North Pole behind me, I'm recording this at the end of December. So, we're going to do an episode today just talking a bit about the highlights of 2021 and some of my thoughts around the headlines I'd like to see in 2022.

So, I'm often asked for predictions and I'm not a fan of predictions for a couple reasons. One is none of us can predict what's coming. I think COVID has been a case study in that, right? We never really know what's coming. The second is I think when you look at the topics that we cover here at Future of Field Service, we're really talking about a continuation of a lot of themes, a maturation of trends that is coming together and culminating to really bring immense opportunity to the industry.

So when I'm asked for predictions, I always feel this pressure to come up with something new or unexpected, when in reality I think a lot of the headlines that we'll see in 2022 are growth and progression on trends that we've been talking about for a bit.

So, those are the things we're going to dive into today. So, highlights of 2021. The first I would say is we survived. I don't know that any of us expected to still be in the situation we're in right now with the pandemic, but we're here and we're plugging along and we are getting things done. We've found a way to persist through all of this, and so that's what we're going to continue doing one day at a time.

We did have the opportunity to get back to some face-to-face events in 2021, and I myself thoroughly enjoyed that. I was able to attend the Service Council Symposium in Chicago in September, Field Service Palm Springs in November, and I was also able to take my first trip out of the country since COVID began to visit the Netherlands to attend IFS Connect, and provide a keynote there, which was a really wonderful experience. I had the opportunity to connect with some folks face-to-face that I had thus far only met through Zoom and Teams. So, that was certainly a highlight for me to be able to get back to engaging face-to-face.

We are up to, I believe at the end of 2021, 143 three episodes of this here podcast, which I just am so thankful for. The ability to have these conversations and share them with you all, the wonderful, wonderful guests that I've had on and gotten to know, really. It's just been a very fulfilling experience for me, and I hope you all have enjoyed being along for the ride.

The other thing that I really enjoyed about the podcast in 2021 is we had the opportunity to really diversify some of the guests. So, we had folks from really all over the world. We had folks from Malaysia and Singapore and Australia and Finland and Iceland, and so I just really, really have enjoyed that as well. Getting to see how the trends and conversations differ from region to region across the globe, and also just getting to know some of the wonderful people that I've gotten to know.

I have had the pleasure throughout 2021 of running a customer community group at IFS, and that has been a wonderful experience for me as well. I have a group of just about 40 folks that we have actually met very frequently in 2021 about twice a month, and we have focus groups of an hour at a time where we come together and talk about different business trends and challenges and opportunities. Really just in a situation where we all haven't been able to travel for quite some time, we started these to really have that sense of community and connection and to be able to build collective knowledge, and it's been just a wonderful experience.

So there's much, much more that happened in 2021 that was fantastic, and if I were to try and go through every highlight, we would be here for a very long time. But it was a good year and I appreciate you all being a part of this podcast. I'm incredibly thankful for the wonderful guests that joined me on Future of Field Service throughout the year, and there was a lot of great highlights.

So, if we shift gears and talk about 2022 headlines. I'm not going to say predictions, I'm going to say headlines. So, the way that I put this together was to think about some of the conversations I've had throughout the past year, throughout the past years really, and how I would like to see those progress in 2022. The conversations I'm very interested to continue and see evolve essentially is what I'm looking at here.

The first is a whole host of topics really around the employee experience and employee engagement. I think we all know that the great resignation is posing immense challenges for industry, after industry, after industry, region, after region, after region and business after business. It's an issue that I think has been a long time coming, but is becoming critical for folks to address. There's some different layers to this, right?

I think if you look at some of the content that we've done throughout 2021 as a platform to start the discussion this year, we've had some wonderful conversations. You look at the responsibility of organizations to become more creative in how they recruit and hire and what their employee experience looks like.

I actually have a podcast episode coming up that hasn't yet been released with Roy Dockery. He was one of my first guests on the podcast, I think it was episode two. We sort of had this conversation I think before folks were ready to hear it, and we recently revisited that conversation and that podcast will be coming to you soon. But his point is as businesses in this space, we need to take more responsibility for solving this problem, rather than just kind of dwelling in it. So, that'll be coming.

We took a look at how companies are doing that, right? So Tetra Pak, Bonnie from Tetra Pak joined, that was episode number 85. We had Bureau Veritas come on and talk about how they're building the future of work. That was episode 129. So, those are episodes that are great to go back to and sort of think about how we can continue this conversation in 2022.

I think the topic of mental health is going to be very important for us to address this year. I know that I talk about this quite a bit myself, because I like to normalize the conversation and share my own experiences, but I think collectively when we look at the impact this has had on all of us, this being the pandemic, it's just every everyone's tired, everyone is a bit worn and a bit burned out. I think that as employers and as businesses, we really need to elevate the way we are considering how we can help related to mental health.

I had a great episode with Jordan from QIAGEN, that's episode 105, and he was very open about how he has realized this is such an important issue with his team. He's in Australia and some of the things he's done, and so this is a conversation, I think, that's going to be imperative. Also just leadership, right? What are we doing to create a culture within our companies that employees want to be a part of, that they feel fulfilled and they are happy and they want to stay, right? We can't force people to stay in role, but we need to look at what we're doing to impact that.

A couple other episodes I'd point out. Just recently I had an episode with Karin Hamel from Schneider Electric. Episode 140, where we talked about five areas of focus she's considering when she looks at building the future of the frontline workforce. Also had an episode with Lauren Winans, who is the CEO of Next Level Benefits, she's a consultant in this space, about creating a strong employee value proposition. That's episode 132. So, all of those will be great things to check out if you have some time to go back and kind of set the stage for where we can take that conversation this year.

The next area is really around digital. Again, this is kind of an umbrella with a lot of different sublayers, right? But I think the idea here is I anticipate 2022 is going to be the year that it clicks for a lot of companies that they need to become far more strategic in their digital strategy, right? So, companies know that they need to be deploying digital tools and they need to be considering the digital experience and things like that, but it's still very disconnected. It's still in many cases, not in all cases, of course.

So I think there's a lot of sort of refinement, I also think this is an area where some businesses are going to realize ... I wrote an article last year called It is Time for A Digital Rebirth? So, I think it may also be a situation where folks realize that they need to go back and kind of start fresh in certain instances.

Some of the podcasts from 2021 that are kind of great lead-ups to continuing this conversation in 2022. One is a conversation I had with Pekka from Cimcorp, that's episode 110. His was a conversation really around modernizing our approach to IT, which again, I think is a very important subset or pillar of sort of becoming more adept at digital.

I had an episode with Russell who was formerly with Rolls-Royce, Russell Masters. That's episode 128, and we talked about the need for more digitally-adept leaders, which is super important. I had an episode with Eduardo Bonefont from BD, episode 139, who told a really interesting story about how related to their digital tools and digital investment specifically, they decided to press pause and take a chunk of time to kind of reflect on what was already in place and address some employee feedback.

Which the idea of what's your digital reputation among your employees, and are you making decisions with their best interests and their voice in mind are very, very important things. The elimination of silos as it relates to digital strategy, I think, will be an important conversation to continue, and evolving into how are we leveraging digital and data to tell stories, and how does that result in new and different employee value propositions? So, lots to discuss there.

The other big topic that I'm excited to continue exploring is the progression on As-a-Service and outcomes-based service offerings. Had some great episodes last year with Kaer. That's Dave Mackerness, episode 136, told the story of how they have evolved to a completely As-a-Service business, wonderful, wonderful insights.

Schneider Electric Australia shared their story in a two-part series, 113 and 114 of how they kind of tackled it in a microcosm approach and made a big impact in their region that will spread across the business. I did an episode with Kevin from TSIA on some of the myths around As-a-Service, so there's some great stuff to dig into there.

Towards the beginning of last year, I had an episode with Tim Baines from the Advanced Services Group talking about the blueprint for servitization. I also had a great episode last year, number 104, with Jennifer Deutsch from Park Place Technologies. She's their CMO and she came on talking specifically about the marketing of services and service businesses, and it was super interesting. I think that's another area that as we evolve the business models and the go-to-market strategy, there's a lot to consider around how are we communicating this evolution to our customers in a way that will resonate? So, lots of cool stuff to discuss.

Finally, I'm super excited to continue the conversation around sustainability. This is of growing concern and interest across the globe, that we had a few episodes in 2021 to sort of initiate this conversation. One was with Sasha Ilyukhin from Tetra Pak talking about the intersection of service and sustainability. It was episode 131. Similar conversation in terms of that intersection with Bureau Veritas, episode 133.

Had on Dr. Andreas Schroeder of the Advanced Services Group at Aston Business School. He was on a few times this year. He's a great person to talk with, but specifically 127 was about this topic. So, I think that's also an area that there's so much to dive into both related to how companies improve their own efforts around sustainability and how that also translates into new service offerings for customers.

So I've been doing this for a while, and I've been in this space for a while and I often get asked how do you keep writing about this stuff? Don't you get bored? It's all of these layers that exist in each of these topics. There's these sort of buzzwords or these categories of conversation that people know are important, or have heard, digital transformation or As-a-Service. It's really when you dig into those things and you start to talk to people that have done it or are doing it and understand all of the layers that go into that type of change and that type of transformation. That's what makes it interesting for me, that's what keeps it interesting, and I'm thrilled to be here sharing that all with you.

So I look forward to some great, insightful, fruitful, actionable conversations this year. Thank you so much for joining me here on the Future of Field Service Podcast. I know it's been around for three years now, which is hard to believe, and I'm looking forward to a wonderful 2022. So happy new year, thank you for being here, and I'll speak with you all again soon.

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What Does the Future Hold for Energy & Utilities?

December 29, 2021 | 31 Mins Read

What Does the Future Hold for Energy & Utilities?

Sarah welcomes special guest Enrique Ochoa Reza, an energy specialist, Ph.D. in Political Science and Master's degrees from Columbia University, Lawyer from UNAM and Economist from ITAM, professor and author who was a Federal Congressman in the Mexican Congress and before that, the CEO of the Federal Electricity Commission (CFE), Mexico’s state-owned, nationwide, power and natural gas company. He recently joined IFS to lead the company’s Energy and Utilities Business Unit and patiently enlightens Sarah on the top energy trends shaking up the status quo and forcing organizations across the globe to evolve and adapt.

Sarah: Welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. We're here today to talk about the future of energy and utilities. Earlier this year, IFS welcomed a new member of the team to head the energy and utilities organization, which is Enrique Ochoa Reza. Enrique, welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast.

Enrique: Hi Sarah. This is great to be here. Thank you very much for the invitation.

Sarah: Thank you for being here. So Enrique's bio is impressive to say the least. So I'm going to read some of the highlights Enrique, and then you can fill in some gaps. So Enrique has been in the energy space for more than 20 years. He holds a PhD in political science and Master's degrees from Columbia, a lawyer from UNAM. Tell me what that is?

Enrique: Yes, the National Autonomous University of Mexico. I am Mexican.

Sarah: Okay. Yes.

Enrique: And I studied law in the National Autonomous University down there.

Sarah: Excellent. He's been a professor. He's a published author. He was a Federal Congressman in the Mexican Congress. Served as secretary of the Energy Commission and oh, what am I missing? There's a lot. He was awarded Person of the Year by the Oil and Gas Magazine in 2015. And as I mentioned, he has recently joined IFS to lead the energy and utilities business unit. So Enrique, go back through a couple of those points. It's a tough bio to read, because there's so much to it, but tell folks a little bit more about yourself and some of the background that you have in the energy space.

Enrique: Yeah. I've always been fascinated by energy. And Sarah, I think it's one of the most important things for human mankind. And so, that I always focus on my studies in economics, then law, and then political science, because I wanted to participate in public policy and energy in Mexico. And I had the opportunity to do just that some years ago when I was a deputy secretary of energy in Mexico for hydrocarbons. And back then, I participated in an overall energy reform in Mexico to open up to private participation, the oil, gas, and power sectors in Mexico. After Congress went to a constitutional reform and then some legal and regulatory amendments, I was appointed CEO of Mexico's nationwide power and gas utility, which I run for over three years. And that was a fantastic moment, because we had to transform the utility to allow for private sector competition, both national and international, but more importantly, to strengthen the national utility in order to move from fuel oil, which was a very strong fuel use for power.

Enrique: But as we all know, it was expensive and highly pollutant and we transit to natural gas and renewables. And it was at that moment in time when renewables were succeeding in becoming affordable, as you all know, when back in two decades ago, a decade and a half, we had to choose between producing energy with renewables that was more expensive than other fuels, but it was clean and comfortable with the climate change challenges that we were facing. But it was a choice, it was a trade-off. You'll have to accept that you will have to pay more for that power, not any longer. Now, as we have moved towards very important technological advances, humankind can have at the same time, clean energy, that it's good for the environment, but it is affordable as well. So now, that has created an enormous incentive for utilities worldwide to compete and to attract private and public investment into new technologies that allow us to substitute fuel oil or diesel from your portfolio to generate power and to include more clean energy that makes your portfolio of power generation more affordable and better for the environment.

Enrique: And that transition was one of the busiest that I had to oversee when I was CEO of Mexico's utility. The other big one was to bring more natural gas from the cheapest source of natural gas in the world, which is Texas. Mexico, as we all know, has a big border with the United States and part of the reform allowed for the public utility to be able to buy natural gas from its cheapest source. In the past, it was linked somehow to the supply of natural gas from its sister company Pemex, which is Mexico's oil and gas monopoly, but sometimes Pemex did not have enough natural gas for the industry, for the commerce, for public consumption and for the national utility. So when there were some shortages of natural gas in the country, CFE will have to go back and use more fuel oil or diesel, which were again, more costly and more pollutant.

Enrique: So then, the energy reform allowed for CFE the public utility to be able on the one hand to go towards renewables and on the other hand, to be able to build an extended natural gas pipeline that linked us to the natural gas coming down from Texas, and that allowed to reduce costs of energy production and on the other hand to decrease the amount of CO2 emissions, because natural gas is much more cleaner than fuel oil or diesel when you use it for combustion for power generation. So it was a win-win situation in both great transformations within the public utility. Natural gas and renewables was the answer that technologically was able to provide the public lower costs in energy and a better source of power with less pollutants than before. So for me, that was a fantastic transition and I see that happening worldwide. Most important utilities are going towards clean energy and they're also going away from coal, from fuel oil or diesel in order to use more balanced portfolio for power generation.

Sarah: Okay. And so, we're going to get into quite a few things that you see happening that are really, really changing the dynamics in energy. So you have 20-plus years of extensive experience in, as we kind of walk through a variety of different aspects of this space, which gives you a very insightful and unique view on what has in recent years and also what's coming. So that's what we want to talk a bit about today. So, the reality is that for quite a long time, this space was very stable and some would say maybe even a little bit boring, but just sort of, just very even, very consistent. And now all of a sudden, we're in a time where some of the factors you've mentioned and others are causing tremendous change and it's a real shake up. So talk a little bit about some of those different factors that are contributing to such a stable industry coming to a point of just quite a bit of disruption.

Enrique: Absolutely. As you will say, energy sectors tend to be long-lasting. They seem to be stable and sometimes for some, even boring. However, there's some moments in time when there's important amount of change, technological change, and also consumption change that drives for utilities to have transformations. And this is one of those moments in time Sarah, this a moment of profound change, it's driven by different factors. One of them obviously climate change has become a main concern. We have just come back from COP26 in Scotland that united the world leaders, trying to reach an agreement that will allow the world to focus on reducing pollutants. And on the other hand, you have a consumer that's always more aware of that challenges looking ahead and therefore, even important businesses or commerce, try to respond to that by producing its products with clean energy in order to make their consumers know that they are also concerned about the environment.

Enrique: So technology has been leading the way into making more affordable the fact that we can use the sun and the wind to create clean energy and make it available for the many. And that has led also for consumers, for household consumers, to be able to put solar roofs in their homes and to produce the energy that they will consume. And this is a very important moment in time when every time more households find that this is affordable. And although it requires a lump sum investment on the first year, it takes off in three to five years. And then, you have a long time to make economic sense of that investment. So more people have become producers of energy, and there's a terminology for this. Consumers have become producers, they're the consumers. And what you can see in the future and it's happening already in many important cities in the world is that a household would have a solar roof. It would have even a battery in the basement, and they will use the power that they generate through the day. They'll store it in a battery and they will use it through the night.

Enrique: In the past, that was not really necessary and it was a little bit expensive to have a battery. So in the past, what used to be the battery of everybody that had solar panels was the utility. The utility will take the energy that you were producing in your home through the day and with that bidirectional meter, we'll know exactly how much energy it was taking away from you. And when you came back on the evening and you turn on your TV and you need it for your refrigerator, and to do your house lighting. You will be using energy at night that you will be pulling back from the utility. And that bidirectional meter we'll make a balance of that. And at the end of the month or the period, they will let you know how much you generated, how much did you consume, and what was the balance too. That was the traditional way we were doing these things, not anymore.

Enrique: Now with household batteries of different brands and of different capabilities and different costs, it is becoming affordable for the citizen to be able to produce its own energy, store it in their battery, and use it again. More importantly, we can talk about that in more detail, electric vehicles are also appearing in the ecosystem to transform the way we transport ourselves. So if you want to see it in a way that it closes the cycle, somebody in their household can generate with a solar roof, store it in their battery or in their electric vehicle, recharge its transportation and be disconnected from the overall utility in the services that they are using to transport, to consume, and to entertain, or even to work. The world is becoming every single time more electric and people can be that original source of its power and the utility therefore has to adapt to this new reality and adaptation that's what they're doing right now.

Sarah: Right, okay. Yes. So the way you describe it, and we think about how that traditional model is evolving to this new model where really the consumer is in control and can do a lot of this themselves to be more independent. What does that mean for the organizations that have thrived off of that traditional model? And how do they need to, if you were to give us kind of a best case scenario, how do they adapt? So how do they evolve to meet the needs of today's reality instead of staying kind of on that historical model?

Enrique: I've seen two trends, and obviously there are wide variation in the world, but I'll say that I'll see two trends. One trend is some traditional utilities that will think that this is not going to be a game-changer and therefore, they're a bit on denial and they will say, "We do not need to change, because the overall industrial and commercial and big household consumption is not picking up on clean energy. The electric vehicle footprint is low and some countries are going to be slower than others to adopt change." So they can say, "We still have 5, 10, 15 years for that." So there's not much that they are doing right now. They think that it's business as usual.

Enrique: However, there are some other utilities who are embracing this change, who are not only embracing it, but leading it. And they're coming up to the household and say, "Guess what? We are here, where your traditional utility, we are embracing change, we're promoting it. And we can provide you with solar panels and services that will allow you to do this transition with us. And we're here and we're not going anywhere. We're up here to serve. And we're here to help." And therefore, they're embracing new business units that provide and help citizen with this change of technology to install solar roofs, to install batteries, to have long-term relationships with them to actually help and finance these installations and to advise them, how can they be even more efficient and more knowledgeable about the energy that they're producing and the consumption that they'll be going to go through in the following five years or 10 years as their investments payoff. And I think those utilities are doing the right thing.

Enrique: They're leading the way, and they're making every citizen have a trustful partner to have and drive through this transition. And I think that the key reason to go this way is because it's becoming every time more affordable to do it. So if you don't lead the way, the market is going to lead the way, and you are going to be sitting down in the sidelines. There is an industry that went through this type of transition with some variation obviously, 20 years ago. And you might remember this era when cellphones first arrived, when we were younger, cellphones were big instruments, they were heavy, they didn't last long, they were very expensive. And some people will say, "There is no need to worry if you're in the telecom industry, because cellphones are expensive. Okay, people are not going to like them. They will always like to go back home and call from home. Who will want to carry a phone with them in their pocket?"

Enrique: Some communication companies denied that change. And remember that in the past, your telephone company will charge you for every call that you make. And long-distance calls were just prohibited. I remember back home, my mother wouldn't let me call my cousin, because it was a long-distance call and it was just crazy, costly. So nowadays everybody has, cellphones are more numerous than hardline, phone lines. People have one or two devices. Even youngsters use it for their social life. It's not even a communication device. It is way more than that. It's even a working device.

Sarah: I was going to say that, you're not even charged for calls anymore. I mean, it's really just based the access or volume of data, but the idea of being charged for a long-distance call, that's completely obsolete at this point.

Enrique: So the communication companies, and you're right in the point, communication companies that before they had the revenue for every call that you were making, now that they changed the way they charge for services and they charge not for a call that you make, calls are unlimited, long distances are no more. And even you have some apps that allow you to make calls without even going through the communication company. So that has changed in a very important way. And the way that utilities think of the communication's sphere changed their business system to collect cash through the services that they provide changed as well. And I think that's the type of change that we will see with utilities. As every citizen will have the chance to generate its own power, utilities will have to be there to back up the system and to make sure that everything runs smoothly, but they will have to evolve in the way they collect their fees and they charge for services.

Enrique: And I think that those utilities that are thinking about those new ways will lead the way and those utilities that do not think that that's going to happen and stay on the sidelines, will maybe having some risk in their overall business. And they will miss opportunities that others will take in their place.

Sarah: But you made the point too, that the risk to the companies that maybe don't believe that this is a fundamental point of change. It's not just them versus the other utilities that want to lead the way. They also have the risk of third-parties entering the space to compete as well. So it's not just which utilities are going to get it and which aren't, but you may see other organizations come in to provide some of those needed services and support to the consumers, if these organizations don't want to step up and fulfill those needs.

Enrique: And there are areas within the industry that are changing faster than others. And I'm going to be stating the obvious, but utilities have at least four different services that they provide. First, they generate power. And back in the days, they generated power far away from the cities. They transform some fuel into power and they bring it into the cities for consumption. So one is power generation. The second big thing that they do is to dispatch and transmit energy from faraway places into all the regions and cities of a nation. So you see these big high towers that transmit power from high voltage, from one place to the next. So transmission and dispatch is another big, important activity. The third one is distribution. When low voltage energy comes down to your cities and you can see it in city posts and cables that take you down to your house or to your commerce. And that's that distribution activity.

Enrique: And finally, it's wholesale. To actually sell you the power and all the services that I have mentioned and you pay a bill for it. The two sectors that have been open for competition in many places now, in many parts of the world is power generation and wholesale. Now, transmission and distribution are what we call natural monopolies. It will not be efficient to transmit, to create an additional source of transmission or additional posts of distribution to have competition in that area. Those areas tend to be regulated. They're natural monopolies, and they work that way worldwide. But power generation and wholesale are open for competition in many countries and even more so, because now the citizen can generate and commerce with its own power. So you will see that change in those areas.

Enrique: The utilities used to be integrated and provide the four activities in a single bill. That's also changing. Now, in different cities and countries where power generation is a source of competition, you can choose your provider of power. Now you do have to pay a fixed rate for transmission and distribution, and then you can actually choose who's going to sell you the final product. So those are the areas of where utilities have to be participating, and regulators are making that participation happen as well. So this is a trend that's happening on the one hand, because of the choice of the people and on the other hand, it's also being imposed by the decision of energy regulators in different countries that are advancing into this direction.

Sarah: So the end result is these utilities have to work to become more competitive in nature than they have been historically. Particularly, when it comes to the consumers.

Enrique: Absolutely, because there's also some stranded assets of long-term investments that were done 5, 10, 15, 20, or 30 years ago that are essential for the overall power system to work. And those assets need to be recognized and paid for. In addition to that transmission and distribution grid also needs always to be modernized even more now so, that so much information is going to be transmitted and require from consumers and the utilities, so that we can include an ever longer list of electronic utilities, electronic appliances that we're using. So we need to have those transmission and distribution grids modernized and up for the challenge of having even more data going through them. So we definitely need to keep on investing in those things. And that's where the regulators come into play. And that's where utilities also need to inform properly regulators, what are the real costs of those systems that it's in the best interest of all that they remain to be very importantly, well-modernized and well-maintained.

Enrique: So I think that's where the overall challenges lies. We need to find a middle ground between the advancement of technology and the right of the citizen to generate, consume and sell its own clean energy. And on the other hand, the fact that we need all those assets from utilities, for transmission and for distribution, and in some sense for generation to create a stable system to be there. And it is a common good that we all have to chip in and pay.

Sarah: Okay. And then, you have the idea that when you talk about the move to consumers doing more of this themselves and utilities needing to respond by introducing new services and kind of thinking about how they evolved their revenue models, it seems like those would be tasks that they really haven't had to think about much, or at least in quite a long while, is that accurate? So sort of when you just think about sort of what's the new value proposition? And what's the go-to-market strategy? And how do we market this? And how do we differentiate ourselves? Those seem like things that under the traditional model, most of these utilities probably haven't had to flex a lot of those muscles. Is that-

Enrique: Absolutely. And let me give you examples of them. I've seen utilities that in order to deny the fact that a citizen can put a solar roof in their home. They just denied the fact that you can buy or install bidirectional meter that will allow you to send back power to the system, where you're producing it and bring in electricity when you require it. In the absence of that bidirectional meter, you can just not have the success of a solar panel working. So a utility will have a gate-keeping power by saying, "There's no more bidirectional utilities available, and therefore I cannot connect it to you, and therefore, it's not a wise investment for you to put solar roofs." In the opposite extreme of that, there are utilities that will facilitate you that bidirectional panel that will allow you to buy it or rent it in payments along a year or two. And therefore, it makes it easier for you to do that transition.

Enrique: Moreover, they can even say, "I'll give you the whole system integrated and I'll give you support to maintain your solar panels, your batteries and your bidirectional meter a long time." So those are two ways that utilities varying their approach to this. And the same thing will happen with batteries or electric vehicles. Electric vehicles and the first time I drove an electric vehicle, it only could run ultimately, 70 kilometers for every recharge. So, you will always be worried that if you will be far away from your recharger, that you will be stuck in the middle of nowhere. And that's a main fear that most people still have today. So the way to go away from that is that as much as you have gas stations in every corner, in the big city, you need to have available electronic fast rechargers so that you will never feel that you are going to be left with no rechargeable nearby with your car.

Enrique: So now, there's ways to go about this. Now, electric vehicles can run over 300 kilometers or more without a recharge. So that technology has improved. And on the other hand, it could be very wise that cities continue to establish public recharging stations that become frequent, and that can be nearby your home, your place of work, or the school of your children, or you can recharge while you're receiving coffee. And therefore, you feel that there, you do not need to fear that your car is going to leave this stranded someplace. In addition to that, some electric vehicles are also suggesting that you can have an electric recharger at home. So it is like when you recharge your phone or your iPad, you ride home, you connect your recharger to your car and the app allows you to choose at what time are you going to be recharging?

Enrique: So maybe you are going to recharge your car every third day at the middle of the night, when the cost of power is the lowest. And therefore, you will be even saving more money in comparison to the gas pump, or maybe you can just do it in your office and when you arrive to your office, you connect it, and in 20 minutes, your supercharger allows you to have a car recharged for the rest of the week or 15 days. Some car makers are even suggesting that they will have a battery for 2024 that will allow you a 1,000 kilometers of autonomy. So maybe you'll have to recharge your car only once a month. So that cost of recharge for electric vehicles is going to be so much lower in comparison to charging for gas at your usual station. That's going to be a game-changer.

Enrique: Now, some people that I talk to in a recent conference in Milan, some will be saying, "Well, that happen maybe in five years in 10 years, and it will never happen in my country." Well, that's exactly the denial that I was telling you about. Others are saying, "Here's the technology it's affordable, you can put it in your home, in your office or in the public space, and it's going to be happening as soon as next year in the following year," and so on. And some countries are seeing the rate of new cars being electric vehicles increase in a formidable way. Most Scandinavian countries, they sell more new cars that are electric than any other type of hybrid or gas or diesel. So there's variation in how countries will adapt to change. But I think that change is happening and there's no way around it.

Sarah: Yeah. I definitely agree. And I think it Enrique, it's interesting, on this podcast, we haven't discussed energy super-specifically many times. It's more just sort of service and more horizontal trends, but what's interesting to me is this idea of disruption and the idea of how these utilities need to a, acknowledge that disruption. I mean, that resistance to change is the first barrier to overcome. That denial is futile, I think. And so, the first thing is you really have to see the reality for what it is. But I think a lot of that resistance comes from fear and the uncertainty in how an organization is going to pivot to meet the new needs. And so, I think in a lot of ways, it's a very natural response, because you want to protect the way in which you've operated and been successful.

Sarah: And so, one way to protect that is to deny that there's a new reality upon us or coming. But I think one of the points that I was thinking about when you were sort of talking about the two ends of the spectrum, like the company that's in full denial, that just refuses to think that this is happening, and then the company who is proactively going out and saying, "Oh, you want to install solar panels. Great, we can get those for you. We can support you. We can help you," and getting ahead of that disruption. The reality is it doesn't have to be, there's a lot of gray area in between those two realities that is the transition time. You have early adopters that maybe already are self-sufficient in their energy, but you have a lot of residential areas that will take quite a bit of time to get there. And so, I think one of the points that seems important to make is that these organizations, you can both accept the reality and start planning for the future while continuing to deliver your current business model.

Sarah: You saying, "Yes, this is coming," doesn't mean that cut, you can no longer make money doing what you're doing. There's a chunk of time here that this transition is going to happen under. And so, we see that when we talk with organizations in manufacturing that are on the journey to Servitization. That whole journey is about moving from someone who manufactures and sells a product to being an organization that delivers an outcome, okay? And that's a whole continuum of steps. And oftentimes, you don't just jump from one end to the other. And so, this seems like a similar situation where part of what these utilities need to be thinking through is how do we embrace this new reality and what's coming even in the future and start preparing for that while continuing to support our current business. And just understanding that you can do both simultaneously for a bit while you get to the point in the future where things are transitioned. Does that make sense?

Enrique: Absolutely. Let me give you an example of that. Now that I have been traveling to Europe and to the U.S., what I have seen in airports and what I have seen in the conference that I've attended, is that an industry that is being adapting quite quickly to these changes are the sisters and cousins of utilities which are oil companies. You can see that oil companies have moved from being their traditional business model of extracting oil and gas from the ground or the sea, and now to become an energy company in a way that they're also buying and building wind farms and solar farms. So they're evolving from hydrocarbons to clean energy. Not only that, in their gas stations, they're installing electric vehicle superchargers, because gas stations have two source of business. One, I'm saying the obvious, they sell gas, but second, they have a convenience store that is a source of income, sometimes even more important than the gas pump.

So they do not want to lose that flow of income. I saw in a conference that they estimate of that gas, gasoline, diesel, and car industry is over $1 trillion annually. That's the size of their business. And they don't want that business to be taken away by electric rechargers that go and take the consumer elsewhere, away from their gas stations. So they're putting the electric vehicle rechargers, where you used to go and charge gas. So they're transforming their product into adapting to this change. Now utilities were the natural beneficials of this change of electrification, of transport and electrification of the world. So for utilities, you should be easier to transit to be the paramount of clean energy and the promoters of electric vehicle recharging. But if they do not move fast enough, some of those who do not move fast enough, guess what? Your cousin, the oil company is doing it for you.

Enrique: So they are now, they have a big advertisements in airports, what they say? "We got it. We've heard you and we're transitioning, and we are not anymore an oil company. We are now an energy company and we have solar winds, electric vehicles, and they're going to move into that direction." So that change is happening. How fast you adopt it and how fast you lead the way, that's really up for the utilities to embrace. But there it's a change that benefits utilities, because it brings transportation, batteries and solar panels that it's something that they know of to their front yard. So some other companies are going to come there too, if you don't lead the way.

Sarah: Right. Yeah. It's just interesting, like you said, it should be easier for them, but in my years of doing this, it's not easy, because it's a change in identity of who they are. And it's a change in the identity of how they serve their customers, how they make their money. And that is just, it can be very, very challenging for people to embrace that need to become something different. At the end of the day though, this doesn't sound any different than a lot of the other industries we discuss, which is, what do the customers want? What do the consumers want? If there are going to be more and more electric cars, then yes, you need more charging stations. That doesn't mean that today you need all charging stations and no gas pumps, but you need to start planning for the future now and figuring out how that transition is going to take place and what that's going to look like. And it just comes back to being open to meeting the needs of the consumers you make your money from.

Sarah: So if it's ultimately driven by what do they want and where are they heading, which in this case is incredibly compounded by the environmental impact of these things. So, super, super-interesting.

Enrique: Thank you, Sarah. Absolutely, because at the same time, you do see utilities leading the way. You do see utilities taking all this information right on and actually investing billions of dollars into promoting the citizen to use this clean energy to adapt technology that allows for batteries at homes, at buildings, at commerces. And on the other hand, to collect all this information in a way that allows the utility to plan ahead all the investments they need to do in transmission and distribution to guarantee a normal and high level of quality service, because all this change in way we produce, consume, and commerce power also requires an adaptation of the traditional models of when was the usual way of consuming and producing power in the past. These changes also require investment and also require long-term thinking. And in an industry where five years and 10 years is short-term, because energy industry have investments that when you decide your first investment for a power plant to be built, you know that it's going to be a five-year buildup project and then a 30-year asset that's going to be working very hard for you.

Enrique: So we're taking decisions now for a 35, at least 35 year-period. So five years go by fast in the utility sector that the economic cycle is a long economic cycle. So some of those utilities knowing all this, they're leading the way, and they're doing what's right for the environment, but what's also right for the pocket book. And that's why this moment is very important. Right now, you can really have your major, your cake and eat it too. You can have a win-win situation when technology allows you to make a decision that's good for the environment and good for the pocket book.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's really interesting. I want to talk with you a bit after. I'd be interested in relying on your network and maybe having someone on that is leading one of those utilities that is really stepping up and taking the reins in this transformation, because it'd be interesting to just talk about why and how they see things. I mean, to your point, with any disruption there's companies that just are more adaptable and more willing to innovate, and there's those that are just more resistant to change and like you said, more in denial. And it's really interesting to kind of examine the differences there and try and help those who are resisting a bit, understand what the flip-side of that can look like and the opportunity it presents. So really interesting stuff.

Enrique: Well, there's one comment that I want to show you. When you go back to power generation and you see that the cost of solar generation has gone down by almost 85% in the last 15 years. The technological advances of that is tremendous. And one way that countries have been achieving that technology change to benefit their consumers, to benefit their citizens, is that they have auctions every year that will allow for different technologies to bid, to offer the lowest possible price of power generation for wind and for solar. Mexico did that back in 2016 and 2017, and 2018, with very important outcomes of reaching the lowest price for solar panels and wind farms in the world. Other countries that continue doing those type of standard processes, public, international, transparent, open have led the way into having even access to lower cost technology in their own processes in 2019, 2020, 2021.

Enrique: So what I see is that as years go by and countries offer an important atmosphere for technology to come compete and therefore show the way, and you get the benefits that will impact the citizens for years to come. Those solar farms and wind farms take two to three years to be built. And their service life spans from 25 years to 35 years’ time. So, it's very beneficial. And of course, we can suggest names of different companies that have led the way in this technology. The U.S. has just announced that they are going to have their first offshore wind farms established in the east coast, something that has happened in Europe for a long time now, but that technology increasing the size of the basis or the length of the rotators have allowed to even generate more energy with the same wind offshore.

Enrique: So that allows for more efficiency, lower costs and so forth. And obviously, there was always be some criticism to every technology power generation, and there's also always to be open to hear how can we improve technology and improve many things, but the bottom line is that in comparison to hydrocarbons, the possibility to use sun and wind to produce power is just a very important asset within an overall portfolio of power generation. And it's not going to be the only one as we can continue conversing, there's also a hydrogen, there's a conversation about additional nuclear, hydropower is also always very important. So there's always a source of clean energy that has to be part of an overall conversation. But as of today, clean energy, batteries and electric vehicles seem to be leading the way. And in the conference that I was just recently in Milan, everybody was just talking about it.

Sarah: Yeah. Okay. Well, I think we'll have some additional conversations we can have in the new year to kind of dig into some more of this, because there's a lot of interesting aspects to this and I really admire your wisdom and your passion. One other question I wanted to ask you today Enrique is, obviously you're incredibly experienced and have played many different roles in this space, and you're obviously very passionate about this industry and this topic. So I love that. And with your experience and your passion now you're at IFS, you're heading the energy and utilities business. What makes you excited about coming onboard a software organization to bring your expertise in and take it from a new perspective?

Enrique: Absolutely. Software makes all these changes possible. Behind all these decisions in the long run is software that allows you to make services more efficient for the benefit of the people. And software is a live subject. It changes, it evolves. It requires a lot of feedback, a lot of knowledge, but it grows. So one thing that it attract me to join now this effort, is to be able to have conversations with utilities and to understand what are the problems of these changes? How can software allow them to have the information they require to run the assets that utility has to provide services? How to empower the citizen with software so that they know how much power they're generating, how much they're going to be consuming, what they can sell and where, and how to, at what price? On the other hand, you need software to understand how are you going to include the electric vehicles within the ecosystem of a city, a neighborhood or a household?

Enrique: In addition to that, you need software to understand how are you going to transmit all this information that's going to be produced by the consumption of even more electric appliances in the family household, in industry, in commerce? So all these need software and software that allows you to face change in a more secure way, in a more knowledgeable way. And the conversations that I had in the U.S. with many utilities that are leading the way in these changes is that without software, they would be blind going into this change process. So they need their software with them. They also understand that software is something that needs to be improved and included and brought on up. So I think it's just fascinating to be out now on the other side of the equation and understand how a service provider of good software helps utilities lead way.

Sarah: Yeah. I mean, when you talk about big of a foundational change, as we're talking about today. You can't lead through that without a lot of insight. And that's the power of the software, the power of the technology is having the information at your fingertips that you need to know how best to meet the needs of the consumers and businesses you serve. So I think it's really cool. It gives you a chance to be a part of this transformation and in a new and different way than you have thus far.

Enrique: Absolutely. And let me tell you, utilities, although obviously infrastructure is relevant. Utilities is about people. Utilities is about the workers and engineers within a utility that make all this happen. And when I was in the utility in Mexico, I remember to say that a utility is like a referee in a soccer match. If the referee's good work is for him not to be noticeable, you see the game plays, and there's no controversy if the referee called a good shot or a bad shot. So then the referee has to be mostly invisible when it does a good job. Utility is the same way. If you arrive home and you turn on your power and you keep on about your business, everything is fine. So the utilities are quite doing a great job when you don't even think about it, when you can go around in your life.

Enrique: And for that, for the utility to be invisible, is that thousands and millions worldwide of women and men, talented women and men are doing their job right. And what software that helps that is Workforce Management. Workforce Management allows a utility to take care of their workers and allows the workers to take care of the utility, because it allows the job to be done properly, safely and economically for the benefit of all. So that's an additional way that a software company allows for the world to continue doing their business without anybody noticing that it's there. And that is the key of it. You have to do your job. And everybody continues to do, to have their own life and power is on when you need it. And that's the belief of it. Power is on, everybody happy. When the power is not on, it's like the bad referee, everybody's talking about the bad referee and nobody wants to talk about the bad thing he did. So I'm glad to be now in a software company that helps utilities and helps the women and men in utilities do their job properly.

Sarah: Yeah. Well, I think it's great that you're here. I absolutely loved hearing some of your thoughts and some of your experiences, as I mentioned, this is a space that I have not dove a lot into. So I appreciate you educating me as well as some of our listeners. And I'd love to have you back again and dig into some of the other areas of this and just keep learning from your wisdom and your experiences. So thank you Enrique.

Enrique: Oh, thanks so much, Sarah. And I wish you the best. And to all of you for this end of the year. Have a nice holidays with your family and best wishes for 2022. Let's make it a very strong year.

Sarah: Absolutely. Thank you. All right. You can learn more by visiting us at futureoffieldserviceref.ifs.com. The Future of Field Service podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thank you for listening.

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Two Sides of the Digital Coin

December 22, 2021 | 15 Mins Read

Two Sides of the Digital Coin

Sarah talks with Andrea Pelizzaro, Connected Services Manager, BU Decanters at Alfa Laval about the company’s multi-faceted approach to digital transformation. From the role of digital tools internally to optimize the customer experience to how to leverage digital to build next-generation services to meet customer needs, Andrea discusses the evolution, lessons learned, and what comes next.

Sarah Nicastro: Hello, everyone. Happy to be here with you today and excited to have Andrea with me. So just to, for a quick introduction of myself, and then I'll ask Andrea to tell you a little bit more about him. So I am with IFS. I actually I'm the creator of a thought leadership platform called Future of Field Service, where I write content as well as host a weekly podcast. So I had the good fortune over my career, which at this point is about 14 years to interview companies almost on a daily basis about their journeys in transforming their businesses, seizing new business opportunities, leveraging technology, et cetera. So it is a very, very great job that I'm happy to do and excited to have this conversation with you all today and with Andrea. Andrea, do you mind telling the audience just a bit more about yourself and your role at Alfa Laval?

Andrea Pelizzaro: Yes, of course. So first of all, hello everyone. And thanks for joining this session together with me and Sarah this afternoon. My name is Andrea Pelizzaro and I'm responsible for Connected Services within BU Decanter. I started actually introduce Business Unit since may this year, but previously I was working as responsible for Business Development within the other business unit boiler still in Alfa Laval. I would say that I have several years of experience when it comes to business model innovation and IoT and I've been working in different industries, but now I'm fully attached to Alfa Laval, of course, and I will do my best to explain you actually a bit more about what we are doing today.

Sarah Nicastro: Awesome. Thank you, Andrea. So we are here today to talk about two sides of the digital coin. So what we're going to be exploring in this session is the role digital plays both internally when it comes to helping you optimize and improve the customer experience, and externally as it relates to leveraging digital as a part of your customer value proposition. So two super important ways that digital tools are being leveraged by leading organizations today. A lot to consider, a lot of areas where you can go astray, and some lessons learned coming out of those, and some thoughts on where things are heading in both areas. So Andrea, with that being said, to start can you share a bit about, from the internal side, looking for Alfa Laval has leveraged digital to streamline and optimize its customer experience. So can you talk maybe about any major milestones and, or next areas of opportunity for that internal use?

Andrea Pelizzaro: Absolutely. So first of all, when it comes to, I believe our focus, especially when it comes to my job on the service business, I think one of the major milestones that we have seen or that we have been able to introduce within the customer experience nowadays is related to the user job remote guidance that is basically a software that enable us to be closer to our customer when they need to have support from remote and have the opportunity to be connected with an expert from our central headquarter. I think this is definitely a quite important advantage that we have been able to create, especially with regards to the challenges that we have seen during the COVID period. But of course this will be used more and more in the future, and that is actually our expectation.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative). So Andrea, I have the benefit of having a little bit of insight on Alfa Laval's use of IFS Remote Assistance. And one of the things that's interesting, not just with Alfa Laval, but with some other customers who deployed that solution during the pandemic is how it was used initially as a response to enable business continuity. But the way that it can evolve as the COVID circumstances diminish or change to be a part of the overall service delivery mix. So in a COVID situation, particularly in the early days, you had situations where travel was restricted, technicians couldn't get on site in a lot of scenarios and you really needed to act fast and figure out how you could still support your customers. Even as those circumstances change, it becomes a valuable tool to help you just have options for service delivery.

Sarah Nicastro: So to look at perhaps a remote first scenario, or to your point to even leverage it from internal Alfa Laval expertise to frontline workforce, or a number of different ways. And so I think one of the key themes when it comes to digital is being a bit more agile, not in the sense of software development but in the sense of mindset. Right? And thinking about what does the customer need? How can we meet it? If that changes or circumstances change, how can we quickly adapt as best we can using some of these tools? I think the pandemic was a really good lesson for folks that were lagging a bit with their digital investments that it is very important to have these tools in place. Do you have any other thoughts or comments around looking at ways Alfa Laval is helping optimize the customer experience?

Andrea Pelizzaro: Yes, of course. Then if we focus on, let's say the capital sales side, so for new projects, I would say that the way that we are leveraging digital in general, it's through lead generation. So we tend to work more and more through an online customer journey instead of having physical meetings or looking for the right person to talk with over a meeting into an office. Now we leverage a lot on digital campaign and the opportunity to target directly the right decision maker in order to of course, enable more businesses. So I think that is definitely something that many companies are working on, but especially into the industrial business is another important emerging trend I would say.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, I think you mentioned a critical term, which is customer journey. And one of the biggest issues that we see right now with digital is the siloed approach. Okay? And I think what that really comes from is looking at digital and doing so in a way of how to solve a particular problem, which is important. We just talked about remote assistance and how that was incredibly useful in a specific issue. But it also plays a bigger role in the company going forward. And we can't just look at digital investments to solve a point specific problem without reflecting on their impact on the customer journey. So I think that one of the keys to digital success is really breaking down these internal silos and looking at that overall customer journey and making sure that it's seamless.

Sarah Nicastro: I mean, customers want simplicity, they want ease, they want peace of mind. And digital can either be an incredible enabler of that, or it can be detrimental to that type of experience if it's not done well. And so I think that term customer journey is really the key to looking at your internal use of digital and looking at it from the perspective of how your customers will experience that and reflecting on what's that experience like. Is it as simple as it needs to be? Is it as streamlined as it can be? And use that to guide your investments and your strategic initiatives.

Andrea Pelizzaro: Yeah, absolutely.

Sarah Nicastro: So good. All right. Let's shift gears a little bit, Andrea, and talk about the use of digital in creating new and differentiated customer value propositions. So tell us a bit about what this looks like for you in your role at Alfa Laval in the Decanter's Business Unit.

Andrea Pelizzaro: Yeah. So when it comes to what we are currently trying to shape as a new portfolio of, let's say services based on big data or IoT, we have different product families at the moment that we can leverage. And actually we start from something that could be very simple, that is a remote support and monitoring solution that is slightly different compared to remote guidance, because in that case, our customer will have the opportunity to remotely monitor their asset from everywhere and get support in case of troubleshooting. To the journey that we are basically working at the moment that is related to the predictive maintenance. That is another extremely important aspect that we want to tackle in the near future because we can clearly see the advantage of having this solution when it comes to support the customer in optimizing maintenance interval, for example. And so we would drive to cost savings.

Andrea Pelizzaro: So these are basically the key solutions that we offer. I can tell you as well that according to my previous experience when I was working in the marine industry, we were leveraging actually the knowhow that we have as a company when it comes to create specific support to our customer in order to operate in a proper manner the equipment that we provide. And I think it's key and where we have still a clear differentiator compared to IT companies, for example, that pop up in the market presenting their digital tool that are based purely on algorithm. I think the knowhow that OEM can provide in this case is still quite extensive. So yeah, that is basically what we are, I would say, bringing into the market at the moment. But of course, there's a lot of ongoing development for future innovation.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, so the point here is you're absolutely right. So you as the OEM, you hold a ton of expertise and knowledge and wisdom, and digital is really what helps you depart that upon your customer base. So I think more and more of what we see is customers are not buying products. They're not interested in buying a product or a service. They're interested in buying an outcome, an experience, a form of assistance, something that will remove a burden from their daily lives. Right? And so by leveraging digital, by obtaining this data, by making this data useful, by using that to help your customers with their problems, you're delivering the type of value proposition that people are interested in today. And so I think that that is super interesting.

Sarah Nicastro: Now, what are some of the key drivers of this that you hear from within your customer base? So you mentioned cost reduction, you mentioned the need to leverage Alfa Laval's knowledge to help train and ensure proper use of the equipment. Are there any other customer needs that are really driving the development of these digital services?

Andrea Pelizzaro: Yeah. I think one of the key drivers that of course is always top of mind from our end is the opportunity to provide, first of all uptime, because in most of the cases this is key for the customer. If you think about a plant in the food industry that you are running couple of decanters, and at some point one of those breakdown, you can have a customer that can potentially have, I don't know, an entire line stopped for a day and they have a huge loss. So we need to provide of course this uptime, it's definitely key for the customer. But I would say that as well performance is extremely important because in most of the cases what we have seen and here again, I relate to my former experience within the marine business. But of course, this is something that we see a clear trend within the food and water business as well is the fact that in some cases, the operator on site, they are not able to utilize the machine always in a proper manner.

Andrea Pelizzaro: So the opportunity from the OEM side is to provide recommendation in order to have actually the 100% performance from the asset that they are utilizing at that moment. So I think those are extremely important as a driver. And then I would say as well, that the fact that now we are in a connected world and especially we have asset located everywhere, it's extremely important to be capable in monitoring from remote your asset. We have companies that are getting more and more mature in the IoT side, and that means that they are basically creating organization responsible to keep track about the processes of machines that are maybe 1000 kilometer away. So that's another of course, driver that we need to take into consideration.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, that's a good point too Andrea is in different industries and the differences in the customers they serve, this varies greatly. Some customers actually have less and less internal expertise. And so they need to rely on their suppliers more and more, or their partners. In this case, you bring up another really good point which is, you can't allow the digital aptitude of your customers to outpace your own digital aptitude. So you need to ensure that you are staying ahead of their appetite for these things by prioritizing digital solutions, investing in innovation, et cetera. So that's a really good point as well. So looking ahead, Andrea, if you think about what the next 12 or 18 months will bring either within Alfa Laval specifically, or just in the use of digital in both of the ways we've discussed today. What are some of your thoughts on where this is going to head?

Andrea Pelizzaro: I think in general the trend that we are seeing more and more within our industry is the fact that we have customer that are getting more and more mature when it comes to let's say, the approach of as a service. So it means that they are starting to think more, as you said, as the output that they can get instead of the hardware that support them in order to get this output. So I would imagine that in the future, we will be able at some point, and I don't know exactly when, because of course I'm not able to predict it. But my expectation is that we will be able to sell our piece of steel tied to a service agreement that is based on the output that they need. So they will not think any more about the transactional business, but more as a subscription based model for example.

Andrea Pelizzaro: That could be definitely something that I'm already working or as a company we are taking into consideration in every indigenous industry that we are engaged on. And then I would say that a potential challenge that I see when it comes to OEM like us, is the fact that we need to be better maybe in conveying that even though we have been working for centuries, let's say within the piece of steel industry, we are trying to go beyond the steel. And in this case, we want to be recognized still as a solid company when it comes to provide a digital solution. So I think this is an important aspect that we need to take into consideration into our journey to be more capable in showing our capabilities when it comes to IoT.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. So, boy that brings about a lot of thoughts, and I know we only have a few minutes left. But just to comment quickly on those things, Andrea, I think the second part of what you said around what is the company known for, and what is the story you're telling to your customers and prospective customers, and what's the identity. That is such an important point. And it is an area where a lot of companies struggle because it is a change in what and who the company is. And it is a very big cultural shift in a lot of ways to doing business differently and introducing these new business lines and business models. And that part in and of itself can be very challenging. And I think it's a point to bring home for folks, which is, that area deserves a lot of attention. I think going back to my point earlier about silos.

Sarah Nicastro: I think one of the very important first steps is to ensure that you have alignment on what the company wants that identity to be. Because when you have different divisions, different business units, different functions, all sort of telling a different story, it doesn't add up for your customers. And so you need to decide cohesively what's the story we want to tell. Who do we want Alfa Laval to become. And then make sure that you start managing that change and getting people on board with that. So let me pause there and just say that if anyone has a question, please feel free to type it in. We have just a few minutes left. I'm going to keep talking with Andrea in the meantime, because I actually have a couple more questions for you, Andrea, that I'd like to get to. But if the audience would like to ask anything, please feel free to add that in.

Sarah Nicastro: I wanted to go back to the as a service point that you made as well. So I recorded a podcast yesterday that will publish in a few weeks’ time with Dave Mackerness from Kaer, and Kaer is in Singapore, K-A-E-R. And they provide cooling as a service. And he had some really good insights on just why they're passionate about the business model, why it works for their customers. Actually, how it ties to sustainability, and really helps the environment, and the benefits that it's brought to the company. So I think your premonition that you can't predict if and when Alfa Laval will get there, but overall things are moving in that direction. I think is absolutely, absolutely true. Andrea, with the couple of minutes we have left, are there any lessons learned you can share from your experiences in the company's digital journey?

Andrea Pelizzaro: Yeah. I think first of all, I have seen, and we still see actually some challenges when it comes to, think about the standard that different industries should put in place in order to make this journey a little bit easier. Because from time to time, you get caught into, I would say, a conundrum of different directives based on location or based on industries that will not give you the opportunity to standardize and have a similar approach compared to the competition. That in the end, of course, you can pretend that you would be able to provide that to your customer the entire package of the solution that you have into our portfolio. But we know exactly that the customer are not looking for, for example, 20 different platform. They want to have one single platform where they can access all the data and so on.

Andrea Pelizzaro: So this is definitely something that I'm always trying to think about when it comes to the journey that I'm in. But at the same time, I would say that an important lesson learned would've been the fact that partnership and collaboration in general is key into this journey. We cannot pretend to work as a company always trying to produce everything on our own because we need to get the expertise from other places. And especially sometimes we can complement each other. So I think it's key the fact that we can leverage on the expertise that we have in house, together with something that we don't have in house. Of course, in the future, we will get better in filling the gaps. But I would imagine that even the fact that we have used in remote guidance IFS is because we were not capable in producing something on our own. And I think it has been a success in the end. So I think it's definitely an important lesson learned that we always take into consideration.

Sarah Nicastro: That's a very good point. Well, Andrea, thank you so much. I know we are out of time. So Andrea, thanks for being here with me. Copperberg, thank you for having us. We have some additional content on Alfa Laval and others at futurefieldservice.com. So would love to have you visit us there. And I appreciate the chance to come and spend some time with you all today.

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Leadership Competencies in a Time of Unprecedented Change

December 15, 2021 | 31 Mins Read

Leadership Competencies in a Time of Unprecedented Change

Sarah welcomes Dr. Adam Bandelli, author of the book What Every Leader Needs: The Ten Universal and Indisputable Competencies of Leadership Effectiveness, to discuss how the unprecedented circumstances of the last two years have changed what leaders need to do to be effective.

Sarah Nicastro: Welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today we are going to be talking about the things every leader needs in a time of unprecedented change. I'm excited to be joined today by Dr. Adam Bandelli, who is the Managing Director of Bandelli and Associates. Adam, welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: How are you?

Sarah Nicastro: Good. How are you?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: I'm doing well. Doing well.

Sarah Nicastro: Great. So, Adam recently wrote a book that he's going to share a bit about with us today. That book is titled What Every Leader Needs. And we're going to talk about some of the characteristics and advice that Adam shares in that book as it relates to some of the change and challenges our audience is facing. Before we dig in, Adam, can you tell our listeners a bit more about yourself?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah, absolutely. So, I am a leadership advisor and management psychologist by training. I did my doctoral work down at the University of South Florida, where I really focused on three things that have kind of transcended through my career. One is around leadership excellence, and that played a role in helping to write the first book. The second is around relationships and influence. And then the third is around culture work.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: So, I did my degree down there. I spent the first decade of my career working for a global management consulting firm, where we really focused on three different things. One is around leadership selection assessments, so helping companies hire senior executives into key roles. The second is around leadership development and executive coaching. So I worked with a number of leaders, Fortune 100 companies on down, C-suite, C-minus 1 to really help develop and cultivate the skills they need. And then the third phase is around transformational change. So really helping companies set a vision for their teams, and then instilling those norms and beliefs down to their cultures. I started my firm in 2016, and the last five or six years we've seen a lot of growth, even during the pandemic, and we're working with some great clients.

Sarah Nicastro: Good. Good. Excellent. And we've talked a lot over the last year and a half, almost two years, about the elements of change that the pandemic has brought about when it comes to technology, leadership, culture, all of those things. So... All right, so we are going to share some of the insights from the book, but before we do that, I'm hoping you can talk a bit about some of the different forces that are causing an evolution around leadership.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Thanks. So, I think there are a couple things that are really causing a change in leadership across different companies and industries. I think one we're seeing more of this focus around crisis leadership. So the pandemic has really shown us that great leaders need to not only drive results and motivate their people, but they need to really have those connections individually with the folks that work with them. If we go back to the beginning of the pandemic, people were concerned about their children, their elderly parents, so having the work-life balance has gone away. And so, leaders who were able to sew into the relationships and really show an interest and demonstrate empathy for their people, are really getting the most out of their people as we get out of the pandemic. So that would be one place.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: I think the second place that leadership is really starting to see some changes is around inclusive and diverse cultures. And so coming out of social justice from 2020, many companies are now focusing on, how do we build more inclusive cultures? And how do we get our people from different backgrounds and races and ethnicities and sexual orientation to really have that connective tissue, where diversity of thought is the primary thing that's brought to the forefront and you're able to leverage the insights from people from all different backgrounds?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: And then I think the third piece is really around servant leadership. And so what we're seeing a lot in our firm with our clients is this idea of authenticity. And so leaders who show up and bring their best selves to work are being genuine, they are being authentic, there's a level of humility that they show to working with their direct reports, to working with their people. And that really builds cultures of excellence for their teams and organizations.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, it's interesting. So, I think about a few things here. I want to comment on a couple of the points you made, but before, maybe I'll add one or two of my own thoughts. One of the things that I think is both exciting and challenging for leaders today is how the need to be more agile, the pace of change, the pace of decision-making, right? This idea of being in a real constant state of continual improvement but like not in a way where like everyone's always continually improving, but like in a real like there are always real significant things happening, right? I mean, we're just in a place where there is a lot of disruption, and the idea of quick decisions, acting on your feet, being able to evaluate data and criteria in a very nimble way, those types of things, is a change in the landscape.

Sarah Nicastro: The other thing that we've talked about just a bit on here, because on this podcast we do often talk about the ways companies are leveraging technology to innovate, right? Is the idea that in many instances you have leaders who are not digital natives, right? But they're leading companies through digital transformation and the journey to digitalization, and what that means in terms of how they perceive themselves, how they need to build talent around them, how they manage and reward that talent, right? On outcomes not output, you know? So a lot of different things related to that.

Sarah Nicastro: But I absolutely agree with you that each of the things you mentioned, what's interesting to me is leaders that aren't good leaders are smart enough to know that they need to pretend to be good leaders. Right?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah, exactly.

Sarah Nicastro: So like, what stands out to me, what I mean by that is, each of the things you said, like connecting with your employees and focusing on diversity, equity, and inclusion, and... everyone knows that those things are important. So everyone says they're doing it, right?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yep.

Sarah Nicastro: But the real difference is I think the word that you said, which is authenticity. Right? So it is, this is not about checking a box that you're a good leader, it's about genuinely giving a shit and showing up in that way. Right? And it can be really challenging sometimes to tell the difference, do you think?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think you'll see short-term results if you put a quick bandaid around diversity, inclusion, or if you try to show more time for your people, but the best leaders are doing it consistently and they're committed to doing. And so there is no kind of drop off after a short period of time. They're genuinely trying to make the people around them better.

Sarah Nicastro: Right. Yeah. And I think a lot of that has to do with a real recognition or understanding of the value that comes from that. Right? So if you think about diversity, equity, and inclusion, it's not about making sure that you're hitting X percent of this or pay equity in this area, right? It's what you said, which is, all of that is important, but it's also diversity of thought and opinion.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: Like you should not want everyone around you to be the same as you, you should welcome people in that have different backgrounds, different experiences, different viewpoints. And that only makes your organization stronger. And so I think that there's this idea of historically, leaders... There's this perception of the elite and the top dog type mentality. Right? And I think in a lot of today's organizations, you see more democratization of talent and control, more empowerment, more realization that the more I engage my employees and the more they're invested in what they're doing, the better we will all be because of that.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yep, exactly. Yep, absolutely. Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: It's really interesting though, I also feel for a lot of folks that I have on here, Adam, that work for leaders who are dinosaurs.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: So part of an old boys club.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. And they see such opportunity for change in their own organizations, but it's just they're met with such resistance.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: They're hitting that wall.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. And that's disheartening and it's frustrating and it's testament to that talent that sees that opportunity is only going to hang on so long before they take their talent elsewhere, because they're not in an environment where they can really contribute and thrive.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Well, I think we're in the midst of the Great Resignation now. And so leaders who are doing those things, they're losing people left and right. I have several of our clients who are going through that transition now, where the old guard who's been doing things the same way for years, attrition is going through the roof. And so, unless leaders are really taking time to develop their people and spend time with their people and build relationships with their people, you can find another job tomorrow. And so, especially... And it goes by the generational things too.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: You look at millennials or Gen Z, they're looking for variety, they're looking for things that matter in terms of social issues. And so, folks who are in their careers 20, 30 years, they're not wired that way.

Sarah Nicastro: Right.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: And so leaders at the highest levels are not being intentional about how to meet the needs of their employees, that will continue to happen.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I want to ask you a question, though, about... So let's, I don't want to say let's set COVID aside, no one can do that. And I agree that in the same way that we've stated here, COVID sped and exacerbated a focus on technology. Right?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: Because the companies that had it were glad they did, and the companies that didn't realized real quick that they should have gotten ahead of that.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: I feel similarly about the topic of leadership and company culture in the sense that I do think it has sped and exacerbated some of the companies that were perhaps already on this journey of caring more, and all of these things, but I do think it was underway prior. And what I wonder is, if you have any thoughts or opinions on where was the fork in the road, or like what created the fork in the road of the old guard versus kind of... I don't even know if there is a really good term for it in the organizational psychology world, but like this more new wave of leadership, right?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah. I mean, so you see with the gender inequalities that have been there for decades, that's begun to shift. I'm seeing more of the senior executives that I work with are women, they're empowering their people more, they're creating venues and opportunities where people can communicate more effectively. We're seeing it with minorities and ethnicity differences as well. So people who may have been in lower level roles decades ago, are now given opportunities at the top of the house, and they're bringing about that change.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: And so, I don't think there was one point in time or one event where it shifted, I think we saw in the early 2000s some of this start to shift, we had the recession 2008, 2009. And in this last decade, we're seeing a number of different things. The LGBTQ, that's become huge in terms of just equality in the workplace as well. So I think all these things had their starts at certain points over the last 20, 30 years, and now we're starting to see some of the fruits of that as we're going into the last couple years and moving forward.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Okay. All right. So in the book, What Every Leader Needs, you detail 10 competencies for leadership success in today's landscape.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: That's right.

Sarah Nicastro: So, we won't have time on one podcast to go through all 10 in detail, plus, I want people to go buy your book and read about them there. But let's talk about a few. So first, let's talk about compassion.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So compassion is really about impacting people through communication, social awareness, and what I call relational intelligence. And I think the foundations of compassion are really around the idea of EQ and empathy. And so, great leaders have self-awareness about how they're coming across to others, they're effective at managing their emotions, and then they're effective about reading a room. And so those key things really make for people to show up in a compassionate way. But showing up and understanding people's emotions is just one part of it. And so the part that goes deeper is what I've coined as relational intelligence, which is the ability for people to successfully connect with others and build strong long-lasting relationships.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: And so, how do leaders do that? They do it by establishing rapport with their people, they do it by taking time to understand others, to be inquisitive, to be curious. They're also valuing diversity as part of the programs that run their organization, and not just as a quick fix. And then this idea of trust becomes really critical. So, are leaders able to develop trust, give it out, earn it back from their people? And that really ties into role models and mentors, and how organizations are able to build systems where people who are new can learn from those who have been there, and vice versa.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. I'm going to come back with some questions on all of these, but let's go through them first.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: So the next one is endurance.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah. Yeah. So endurance is really focused more around maintaining resilience, tenacity, and stamina to achieve your goals. And so, we've really seen this become one of the forefront leadership skills coming out of the pandemic. People have had to push through some difficult change and uncertainty. And there are different ways that leaders can focus on. I think what we've seen over the last year are that leaders who are very pragmatic and practical they were able to set goals for their teams that they can achieve in the short-term when people do not know what's going on and trying to figure things out day from day. Leaders who operate with endurance, they play at the right level as well. So this idea of delegation becomes really critical and how you're able to do that within your teams across functions as well.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: And then there's a piece around balancing strategic and tactical issues. So great leaders who are able to show up with endurance, they know the level that they need to play, but they also know that they have the people around them to go tactical when they need to and they can pull back up. So, it's those kinds of pieces that really make for folks who are able to show that endurance over time.

Sarah Nicastro: So this is maybe a combination of both of those two initial characteristics, but... Well, I had a really interesting conversation a few months ago with someone I know who works within an organization that was really heavily impacted by the pandemic in a negative way, like many were, right?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yep.

Sarah Nicastro: And the conversation we had was about that organization's leadership's missteps in not being able to separate the performance of its employees with the performance of the organization, right?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: So, it was this situation where... I just think when you think of endurance and you think about what everyone's been through during the last year and a half, I mean, this can apply to your real life too. I mean, I'll be honest, like I've had times where I've struggled and I'm like, "I can't do it anymore, I don't want to do it anymore." And I'm not talking about work, I'm talking about it all. Right?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: Like it's just like the whole thing has just seemed incredibly defeating at times, never-ending, like, "Will we ever be able to X?" All of the things, all of the worry, the stress, et cetera. So... And as a leader of a company, then that's compounded by your own... your need for personal endurance with whatever might be going on in your life, with the endurance of also the organization and the team. Right?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: And I think that when you were talking about endurance, I was just thinking like, "Boy, that has to be really, really hard to be a motivating force in such a taxing time." Right?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yep.

Sarah Nicastro: But the reality is, that's where I was kind of thinking about the intersection of those two traits, like endurance and compassion, right? Because, yes, it's frustrating to have to recognize your team for hard work when the overall performance of the company is suffering, but you need to have the compassion to know it's not their fault and they're still trying, right? And so, by not being able to separate those things, and either directly or indirectly placing that blame on them, you just kill the morale of your whole staff. Right?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: So, there's a lot that comes into, I would imagine, sort of the codependencies of these characteristics and how they all intersect.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah, that's spot on. I think there's a huge connection between a number of them, but compassion and endurance are probably two of the biggest ones that have been interconnected in the last year and a half.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: And I can think of one example from one of our clients where there was someone who was new to the role and new to the organization, and didn't really know and understand the culture. And so, as performance started to dip for the organization, this leader started to push harder with his people and missed out on those moments to really empathize with what they were doing in their home and personal lives, because the blending lines of work and personal has really kind of been thrown into the forefront in the last year.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: And so, he was unsuccessful in really getting to motivate his team, because he didn't take time for them, he focused more on what we need to do versus who do we have around the table to get it done.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. This is where I wish I knew sports better and I could come with like a really good analogy of like, "What type of coach are you? This guy or this guy, or girl?" But I don't. But I mean, it is very much a thing of... And I think this goes back to the EQ, the relational intelligence, and being able to say, "What do they need from me right now to endure? Do I need to be hard and strict and do I need to kind of lay down the law, or do I need to back up a little bit and be more compassionate, be more empathetic and kind of take a softer approach?" And I think that really good leaders can do both, they don't sort of just characterize themselves as one or the other. Right?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: They can kind of put on different hats as needed to get the outcome.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah. Yeah. Great leaders are servant leaders. I'm a firm believer in that. And so, servant leaders put their people first. And if you put people first and you sow into their lives, they're going to drill through walls for you. They're going to be committed to you if you don't lead by fear and intimidation. Some of the greatest leaders that I've worked with, understand that at their core, and so they show up to make their people better. And that shows up in the results at the end of the day.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. All right. The next characteristic we're going to talk about is vision.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah. Yeah. So vision is the kind of quintessential leadership skill. It starts on the very basic level. If you don't have a plan or idea for your future, you'll have no idea where you're going. So vision is about developing a clear sense of the mission and purpose that really provides direction to yourself and to others. And so leaders who are able to do that three year plan, five year plan, they at least get an idea of where they want to go and they can do the kind of delineation of where we are current state and where the future state is. But there's three important things that when you're setting a vision for your team are really critical.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: I think one, you have to build the playbook. So if I have a goal to do X, Y, Z in five years, what are we going to do each year to get there? And so building those steps until you can achieve that vision. But the most important thing with your people is to bring them along for the journey. And so, it's not just you in a room creating this overall theme or this overall approach, it's are you getting agreement and getting alignment, and making sure that your folks play a role in shaping what that vision will look like.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: And then the biggest thing that I've seen that's been a challenge in the last two years has been celebrating the victories along the way. And so, leaders are constantly trying to strive for that next hill, that next goal or accomplishment. When they don't celebrate the victories, it can be very demoralizing to your team. So setting a vision really focuses on those three things. It's having your playbook, it's bringing others along, and then it's really being able to celebrate the victories along the way.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Okay, good. The next one is inspiration.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah. Yeah. Inspiration is one of my favorite ones. This is really around motivating, encouraging, and influencing other people. And this is where it goes beyond compassion, because compassion is really understanding where people are and meeting them there, inspiration is how you're able to take that and really drive things forward. And so, inspiration really focuses on words that have power. Our words have tremendous power, whether it's good and bad. And the people that report to us can sometimes hang on everything that we say. So, are you being encouraging with what you're sharing? Are you pointing out things that they're doing well and providing that feedback on a consistent basis? So many leaders miss out on opportunities to provide feedback. And so, that's a big critical piece of it.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Rewards, recognition, and repercussions. That's another big part of inspiration. Are you setting clear expectations and holding people accountable? If you are and they're achieving their objectives, how are you rewarding them? And not just incentives and competent pay, but how are you giving them opportunities to take on greater responsibility, or increasing their scale and scope in what they do? And then recognition is about really supporting them and encouraging them to be promoted or to move on. Are you acknowledging the hard work that they're putting in?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: And then the third piece around inspiration is really around developing the talents of your people. And so, great leaders are very intentional and focused on, how can I make my team better, individually and collectively? And so, inspiration really is shown and demonstrated by how you develop your people.

Sarah Nicastro: So what I'm wondering, Adam, is how reliant is a leader's ability to inspire its workforce on their investment in their own inspiration?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Explain that a little more.

Sarah Nicastro: So, I think for a leader to be able to go to work and inspire others, they need to be inspired.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: And I think that sometimes leaders don't do a good job of conserving the time and energy to source their own inspiration. Does that make sense?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: And so, I'm just wondering your thoughts on the correlation between those two things. Like they... I guess the concept of you can't pour from an empty cup, right?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: And so I think like some of the leaders I know that I think are most inspiring, actively prioritize investment in things that inspire them. So whether that's peer groups community, their own mentorships, reading, podcasts, movies, whatever it is that really lights them up, they know that they need to have the time to do those things so that they then have that energy to take to their role.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah. Where are they getting their energy from? Where are they getting their inspiration from? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think really strong leaders are balanced in how they do things. So they take time for their physical and fitness, they take time for their spiritual, mental, and emotional. So it's well balanced. But they have resources and tools that they leverage, whether it's books that they read, whether it's podcasts they listen to, but they're getting their inspiration from what they're seeing, and then it goes back to the idea around vision.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: They're getting their inspiration from, where are we taking this business? Where are we taking the team? Leaders who have the end state in mind can usually keep themselves engaged and motivated because they're moving towards something.

Sarah Nicastro: I also I think would say that some of the best leaders I know allow themselves to be inspired by their teams or individuals on their teams, right? Like they can also get inspiration from the people that they're working with.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. The last one we're going to talk about today is innovation.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah. Yeah. And innovation is really, how are you able to apply continuous improvements to processes and procedures over time? And so, innovation really focuses on four critical elements. I think one, innovative leaders anticipate the future. So they're constantly looking around the corner and anticipating what's going to happen next. Whether you're in an industry where you develop products, whether you're in a services industry, how can I meet the needs of my customers or clients before they even know they're happening?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: I think the other piece around innovation that's really critical is, can you put thoughts into actions? Some of the greatest leaders that I've worked with, not only have people around them who can come up with great ideas, but they're able to then track that back to, "Okay, how do we make this come to life?" Because you can have tons of great ideas, but unless you can bring it to the forefront and make it happen, innovation is not going to be useful.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Then there's this piece at the organizational level, which is really around how do you create cultures where people value creativity and they value idea generation? And it really starts from kind of having an open environment where people feel their values and beliefs are appreciated, and so that people can be more creative. And then going back to what we started with today is championing diversity of thought. You want different people around the table from you so that the best ideas can be brought to the forefront.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I think one of the things that comes to mind when I think about innovation is, it seems like such a sexy word, but in reality, it's tied very closely, again, to endurance, right? I mean, it's to your point, you can have innovative ideas all day, every day, but if you don't actually put any of them in place, it doesn't matter. Right? So it's a big part of innovation is execution.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: And I think that there's... Some of the most innovative minds I think are also just people that are programmed to think fast, move on to the next thing, think fast, move on to the next thing, right? So kind of tempering that with the ability to execute and the ability to kind of take things in the appropriate order to actually see them come to fruition, is a super important part of innovation.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: And the other part that's tied into endurance is a lot of times people are thrown into situations where they need to adjust and change changes imposed on them that's not their choice. And so people who are innovative know how to adapt and respond. They're agile. They can respond quickly to those changing circumstances, and come up with solutions to adapt on the fly.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Okay, really cool. So, if listeners want to know what the other five characteristics are, they need to check out the book, which we'll tell them about later. But you also have a new book coming out in the spring.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: I do.

Sarah Nicastro: So, can you tell us a little bit, maybe give us a little bit of a sneak peek into that?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah. So as I mentioned, I've spent the last two decades of my life really focused on relationships and influence. So how can leaders get the best out of their people by the relationships that they develop? So, I came up with this concept called relational intelligence, back when I was doing my dissertation in graduate school. And I've refined this framework over the last 15 years, both personally and professionally. So the new book is called Relational Intelligence: The Five Essential Skills That You Need To Build Life-Changing Relationships.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: And what the book looks at is this conceptual model that I developed that looks at five skills that lead to building a strong relationship to influence people. So skills like, how are you able to make an initial connection? How are you able to show empathy and curiosity for people? How are you able to embrace diversity develop trust? So the first part of this book really does a deep dive into each of the five skills. Very similar to my first book, there's practical applications at the end of every chapter, where you can apply these right away to use them.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: The second part of the book is the applications of relational intelligence on the different areas of our life. So related to our family lives, our friendships, our professional lives, and even our romantic lives in marriage. So it kind of shows how this applies to both things. We have seen in my firm with our clients become one of the most number one issues that people are facing right now. Especially coming out of the pandemic, people have lost that human element moment. We're doing our conversations like this at Zoom. So getting in the room with people and really being able to embrace others and being able to really reestablish those connections, is critical. And relational intelligence is really a toolkit for people to reestablish their relationships.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. Good. So, what do you think are the biggest barriers to leaders embracing the 10 characteristics you outlined in What Every Leader Needs, and/or some of the points that you bring up in the new book coming out, the skills related to relational intelligence?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah. Yeah, it's a great question. So I think there is what we call the dark side of leadership. So there are certain traits that leaders demonstrate that can really get them into trouble. So things like Machiavellianism, narcissism, and pride. And so, whether you're building relationships with colleagues, or whether you're trying to inspire, motivate people, when leaders are self-centered and directed kind on their outcomes, when they view people as means to an end and they don't think about the repercussions long-term, there's this term, leading with the iron fist, leaders who do that will get immediate results for the short-term, but they'll damage relationships and they'll damage the impact and the culture that they have long-term.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: So, that's the first thing I would say that is a real big barrier is finding and identifying who those people are, and making sure that they're not in the roles where they're going to influence and impact other people.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: I think the second thing is really around this inability to change and adapt. The leaders who have struggled the most through the pandemic are the ones who have had an inability to adjust to working from home. I look at people in the restaurant, hospitality industry, who have always been in offices and in restaurants and in places, to be stuck at home it's very challenging for folks in that industry. Other industries like myself, professional services, I did most of this, where I was either at my clients or working from home writing reports. So it was not a difficult transition for me to do this. I'm extroverted and get energy off of interacting with people, so that part was hard. But I think those who couldn't embrace change have struggled.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: And then I think the other piece that's tied into this self-centeredness is leaders who only care about the results. I believe that the highest calling of leadership is development and cultivation of the skills of the people around you. And if you're just trying to push people to get to a number or to hit your top-line growth, you're not going to be able to generate that success long-term.

Sarah Nicastro: So, to what degree though? The last comment you made. I agree. Okay?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: But it doesn't seem to me that a lot of top-level executives and boards that I would interact with today would share that sentiment, or if they do, it goes back to the point I made early on, which is they can say it, but at the end of the day, all of the decisions they make are very driven by just numbers.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: So, to what degree do you think people share that sentiment that you have? And is that on the increase?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah. I think you go by generations. I think folks who are baby boomers, who are probably on their way out in the next decade or so, they have that old guard mindset. I'm working with a lot of executives now who are in their early to mid 40s, where the focus on people and culture has become even more important. So I believe you will start to see a shift over the next decade, where there will no longer be lip service to we have to care and show empathy for our people, that will become more of their priority. It's a much more important factor to millennials, it's a much more important factor to Gen Z. And so, that shift I think is going to start to really snowball over the next 10 years.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. I have a lot of other questions I'd like to ask you, but we're not going to have time for all of them today. We'll have to have you back sometime, maybe when the new book comes out in the spring. We can dig in to that a bit.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah. Yeah. That's fine. That's fine. Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. I did want to ask, you've spent years and years working with different clients on both their businesses and themselves, in terms of their own leadership skills.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: Is there any like daily practice or best habit that you would suggest to listeners when it comes to this concept of embracing modern best practices and educating and continually improving yourselves? Let's leave the people out that don't have a genuine desire to go up, because what's the point? That's a different conversation. But for the people that do, what is the best advice you can give in terms of good habits, daily practices, that sort of thing?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: So I'll start with what my clients do and what I coach them on, and then I'll say what I do personally, because I think that's more meaningful and impactful to your audience. The greatest leaders that I work with have healthy routines that they start their days with. If you go back to Tony Robbins, he talked about his Hour of Power, and a lot of folks. Oprah does the same thing. But you'll see successful people across all walks of life start their day with a consistent routine.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: For me, over the last several years, I've honed and refined it. So I spend the first hours of the day really focused on spiritual practices, physical health, mental and emotional well-being. And one of the things that I do that's very simple, everyone's probably heard of it before, but I journal. And so, journaling is one of the first things that I do in the morning, just getting my thoughts down on paper before I touch anything else or do anything else. And for what it's done for me is it's freed up the creative ability to write elsewhere without having writer's block or things get in the way of me putting my words to paper.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: So I've written both of these books, What Every Leader Needs, and Relational Intelligence, over the last two years, because of that one specific habit. I start the habit every January, where I'll sit down and just... Again, every morning, I have to fill one page of a piece of paper out with thoughts and just random things I'm emotionally experiencing or whatnot at the start of the day. And that has led into me being freer to write and to create and to be innovative in all the work that I do in my firm.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: So I would say to your audience, get yourself a good routine in the morning, have it be a combination of thought, physical activity. You want to both exercise the psychology of your mind and also the physiology of your body. And if you do that, I think it will impact your life in many different ways, but it will automatically set your day on a bright note, where whatever types of adversity come your way, because you've kind of given yourself that one hour to set the stage, it makes the rest of the day more successful.

Sarah Nicastro: What time do you get up?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Usually 5AM. So I try to do this with-

Sarah Nicastro: What time do you go to bed?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: 9:30, 10:00. So I'm an early fall asleep early, get up early.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I'm going to be honest with you, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I feel like I don't want this to turn into a therapy session, but I will admit publicly that I, in the last couple of months, have fallen out of that habit myself. Right?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: So I, five days a week, would get up, go to the gym at 5:45. I don't know that I was as good at the other parts, I don't journal and then... Those are all things I would like to do. Right?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: And it's a completely different day when I do it. I just also... I struggle with the fact that I work full-time, I'm married, I have two small children. Like, I know it's, I don't want to say it's an excuse, it's a reason, but it's not a good enough reason, which is I'm just tired. I'm tired.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: But I actually ordered a Peloton last week, it will be here on Monday, and I am committed. You all can follow me on Instagram and watch me post my workouts daily starting Monday morning, because I know damn well it will pay off significantly. And I like the idea-

Dr. Adam Bandelli: You talked about inspiration. You talked about inspiration.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Where do you get your inspiration from?

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: This is the hour of the day where you can get inspired by something you're listening to, you can get inspired by working out. So, this is the hour of the day you give to yourself. Give the first hour to yourself, give the first hour to energize and get yourself ready for the day, and it will impact the rest of the day.

Sarah Nicastro: For sure. Yeah, I think that's fantastic advice. And I think that I always go back to after I had my first son and I gained a ridiculous amount of weight when I was pregnant with him, but I did a program from home, it was a half an hour a day, and I always told myself, "It is 30 minutes, like there is absolutely no reason you can't prioritize this." And a lot of it is just habit, you know?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: And that's why I think I've been frustrated, because I've had it for so long, and then I broke it, and I'm having trouble getting back into it, but I will, you know?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: But you're absolutely right, that it's a... People always... I don't know how you can get up that early, but like once you're doing it, you realize how good it is and how much it helps you. Like I always say too like, "I work out more for my mental health than I do..." Like, yes, it's good for my physical health, but like my motivation is how I feel, period. You know?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: So, I think that's really good advice. Okay. Adam, any closing thoughts or comments before we wrap up today?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: No, no, this has been tremendous, a pleasure to speaking with you and your audience. And you can follow us on... Our website is bandelliandassociates.com, if you want to find out about the services that our firm offers around leadership development. And you can also go to the website, whateveryleaderneeds.com, that's one word. And that's where you can find places to purchase the book, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, et cetera.

Sarah Nicastro: What Every Leader Needs. And the new book is coming out in the spring, do you have a month?

Dr. Adam Bandelli: April, 2022. If you follow me on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, we're going to start posting about that in January. So there'll be a lead-up to the release of Relational Intelligence. And you can follow us on social media, we'll have all that information for you.

Sarah Nicastro: Excellent. Well, we would love to have you back when the new book comes out and talk a little bit about the content there. Really appreciate your time today. It's been wonderful having you. So thanks for coming on.

Dr. Adam Bandelli: Yeah, my pleasure.

Sarah Nicastro: All right. You can find more by visiting us at futureoffieldserviceref.ifs.com. You can also find us on LinkedIn as well as Twitter @TheFutureOfFS. The Future Of Field Service podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thank you for listening.

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5 Areas of Focus to Create the Frontline Workforce of the Future

December 8, 2021 | 25 Mins Read

5 Areas of Focus to Create the Frontline Workforce of the Future

Karin Hamel, Vice President of Services for US Digital Buildings at Schneider Electric, joins Sarah to share five areas she’s focused on when it comes to creating the frontline workforce of the future.

Sarah Nicastro: Welcome to the Future of Field Service Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today we are going to be talking about five areas of focus when you are thinking about creating the frontline workforce of the future. I'm excited to be joined today by Karin Hamel, who is the Vice President of Services for US Digital Buildings at Schneider Electric. Karin, welcome to the Future of Field Service Podcast.

Karin Hamel: Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Sarah Nicastro: Yes, thank you. So Karin and I were fortunate enough to catch up in-person in September in Chicago at the Service Council Symposium. She had a few sessions there that were wonderful, talking about some of her areas of focus at Schneider. We had a good chat, and came up with some things that we wanted to discuss with you all today on the podcast. So before we dig into the nitty gritty, Karin, why don't you tell our listeners a bit about yourself.

Karin Hamel: Sure. So Karin Hamel, and I'm coming to you live from Chicago land. Although I am not originally from here, I'm originally from the east coast, from Rhode Island. That's where I started my career back in the day with American Power Conversion. That's how I got into this sort of IT tech field, energy management. Along the way, APC was acquired by Schneider Electric. I took a little time off in between, but I've been with Schneider for the past 11 years. I have four children. To be honest, thinking about my career path, what gives me the most energy and passion, it is truly all around services. So I'm really glad to be able to be here talking with you about that.

Sarah Nicastro: Awesome. So you all know that I'm a mom of two, and I'm very passionate about power to the working mama, and shutting down any sort of narrative that says we can't do all of the things. So I admire the fact that you are equally passionate ab out your children, and being a mom, and also your career, and services, and all of the great work that you do at Schneider. So I love that about you. Cool. Okay. So we talked a lot on future of field service, and you and I at the event, about how the role of the frontline worker is changing.

Sarah Nicastro: So as service organizations innovate, and advance their offerings, and move toward this idea of delivering outcomes as technology continues to mature and become more sophisticated, the characteristics that you all are looking for in a frontline worker are different than they were two years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, right? They're sort of continually evolving. So there are a number of things that you and Schneider are doing to sort of take action and respond to these changes.

Sarah Nicastro: So that's what we're going to talk about here today. We're going to talk about five key areas, and the first is shifting the perception of the frontline worker. So can we talk a little bit, Karin, about how would you describe the historical perception of what that role is? How that perception needs to change to reflect really what the role has evolved to be and is continuing to evolve to be?

Karin Hamel: Yeah. Well, I think the historical perception, and certainly the one that I have in my head when you asked that question is your typical Maytag repairman. The man that comes up with the toolbox, and the uniform, and comes into your home or your place of business, and he's there to use the tools out of his toolbox to fix whatever has recently broken.

Karin Hamel: That is not necessarily enough anymore, because now we know what the advancements have happened with technology, with data, analytics, and those types of insights. We can actually arm those technicians with these digital tools. Their toolbox is now more of a virtual toolbox in many ways. So if you think about the skillsets required today to really serve our customers the best that we can, they've enhanced. We have to really think about, how do we train up and skill those legacy workers to be able to be more well-rounded, but as well as look for those traits upon hiring and entry into the workforce?

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I was doing a presentation a couple of weeks ago, also in Chicago, different event, but another Chicago trip. It was talking about some of the things that are necessary in today's landscape when it comes to modernizing our recruiting and hiring practices, right? Because as the workforce evolves, companies can't expect to continue hiring the same way that they were five years ago. It's just not realistic, right? I was co-presenting with one of my colleagues. When he sent me the initial draft of the slide deck, the title slide was a picture of two really dirty hands. I was like, "We can't use this. I'm not saying that's never a part of the job. But I'm saying, it's reinforcing a perception that is quite outdated."

Sarah Nicastro: It's very interesting how in many ways the role of the frontline is shifting from that very hands-on, mechanical, dirty work type job to more of a knowledge worker and a relationship builder. There is a lot of things that come along with that change that would be a podcast for another day. But you're absolutely right that the perception many have in their minds is not truly representative of the work that's being accomplished today, and how that will continue to change. So from a company's perspective, I think that's super important, because if we continue to have that outdated perception, then are we treating our employees in those roles the way that the type of people with the skillsets we want in those roles want to be treated?

Sarah Nicastro: I think it's also important from kind of an external perspective that we work as an industry at large to modernize that perception, because that's part of the key to being able to get folks interested in these types of jobs, right? One of the things that we talked about briefly at the event, Karin, was I love that you said this. You said, "So salespeople have things like president's club. Why aren't service workers rewarded in the same way?" Right? So tell me a little bit more about your thought process there.

Karin Hamel: Well, no one needs to be like the redheaded stepchild. I feel like we've done that to our field service personnel largely, as a trend in the past. We've overlooked them or taken them for granted. They are doing the dirty work, oftentimes. While we can enable them with technology, at the end of the day there are still plenty of dirty job sites that they have to go and help us resolve. So I do think that we have an opportunity to highlight the work that they've done, and celebrate the hard work that really, a salesperson, they do an amazing job of securing an order, right? Securing that relationship upfront with the customer, giving us work to perform.

Karin Hamel: But at the end of the day, that salesperson is selling the value that that technician is going to deliver. We are nothing without that side of the equation. So it's really important that we wrap our arms around the technicians, empower them, celebrate them, recognize what they're doing. When we see that internally, it catches on. Right? Then we create this movement across the organization, and especially when it's peer-to-peer recognition, and the salespeople recognizing the technicians, we create a much better culture where we work. That's a place we want to stay, too. It's a place people want to be hired into.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. So sure, there is this ongoing conversation about the fact that in many industries, post-sale, the frontline technicians are the only person that interacts with the customer face-to-face, right? So there is a lot of responsibility of not just getting the job done, but reinforcing the company brand, and building and nurturing those relationships, and looking for different opportunities to serve customers, and weighing in on innovation, and all sorts of different things. So I agree 100%.

Karin Hamel: Yeah, I think about that technician is walking into that customer's site, and there are different sites every day of the week. They're wearing the company logo, is wearing Schneider Electric. They are bringing a piece of our company to that customer, physically, representing, every day, it's so important that we support those people.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. For sure. Okay. So the second key area is around increasing diversity. So we're talking about all sorts of diversity here, differences in thought, opinion, ideas that are so valuable for companies that are really looking to evolve and innovate. So it's important, but you and I both sat back at the event in Chicago, and kind of said, "Hmm, there is still not many women here." There is even fewer people of color, right? So we really haven't ... We've made progress, but we're not anywhere near where we need to be in terms of being a diverse space. How is Schneider Electric working to change that?

Karin Hamel: Yeah. I'm very proud of the programs that Schneider has been driving over the past few years regarding diversity, equity, and inclusion. I think we do a really good job internally with our core values being, driving the right types of behavior that we want to see with our people, and making sure it's a safe, inclusive environment for everyone to perform at their best. When I think about the work that remains to be done, it will be all about enticing that talent, that diverse talent to come into Schneider Electric. If we think about the makeup and look and feel of that Maytag repairman persona, and the workforce that we've had historically, think about the why. Why has it traditionally been white males of a certain age, certain decade that they were born in, perhaps?

Karin Hamel: Well, it's really, the excuse that I've heard or the reason I do think that this is substantiated is we didn't have STEM programs for women or minorities. It was really, these electrical engineering programs, we traditionally didn't have that persona enrolled in those programs. But today, we do. We know that. I remember, being a mom of a 15 year old, seeing STEM as part of the curriculum at her school. I was like, what is STEM? I didn't, I had not been familiar with that term growing up. Now, we have, we can't ignore it, and we should be embracing it and leveraging it. So what we're doing is trying to find opportunities to create more entry level roles to get that talent in as soon as possible. Having programs like university recruit programs, apprenticeship programs, great onboarding and training to attract and retain that talent. So that's a big focus right now for us.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. So it's interesting, it goes hand-in-hand with the first point around perception, right? Because to get younger folks more interested in these roles, we need to do a better job, like I said, of sort of ... I don't want to say making field service sexy. It can only be so sexy, I guess. But there are, I think, aspects of the job that are innately appealing. Then there is also a lot of things companies are doing and can do to make sure that you're thinking about what the younger generation wants out of its career, and finding ways to get creative and provide some of those things. There is this need to make sure you're communicating in a modern way what the opportunities are, why they're compelling, all of those things.

Sarah Nicastro: But to your point, it's also around not just looking to hire white, male technicians that have 15 years of experience, right? So how do you look for those ways, to your point, of bringing talent in sooner, where they're not already set on a specific path. But maybe they're open to different ideas and opportunities. Really, I call it farming some of that talent, right? But creating programs where you can give really, really skilled and good fit folks the opportunity to come to Schneider and progress in a variety of different ways, versus just looking for the people that have already done that elsewhere. I think that's a really important point. Certainly, a way to focus not only on the issue of the talent gap, but specifically on increasing diversity in the talent that you're bringing in.

Karin Hamel: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: I think that's a super important way.

Karin Hamel: By no means do I ever want to ostracize the white, male audience, right? We need them. They're important. It's not anyone's fault. It is the situation that we're in. What can we do, because we know, now, that a more diverse collective group of people will be more highly engaged, and ultimately provide a better experience for our customers and all the other employees that they work with. So I think it's important to say that. We want everyone.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Karin Hamel: There is a place for everyone.

Sarah Nicastro: That's exactly right. It's not about reducing or eliminating that in any way. It's just about augmenting it, and adding to it, and making sure that anyone and everyone that has the desire to explore these type of career opportunities is made aware of them, and given the chance to explore those skills. So you're absolutely right. I don't mean it that way either. I've been in this space for 15 years, and I have relationships with so many people that fit that characteristic, and they're fantastic people. So many of them share the desire to bring the industry to its next iteration. So it's all a collaborative process. I think that everyone recognizes that it's important for us to bring all sorts of different folks into the mix. That's how we all are going to get better. Cool.

Sarah Nicastro: All right, so the third key that I want to talk about is moving from communication to collaboration. Okay? So when we think about the frontline worker, I think we've made strides here, but we've come from a place where we have folks that are happy to show up for work, punch a clock, see what the directive is, and oftentimes are just very happy to carry out the duties that they've been given, and do their work, provide the service to the customers, and be happy with that. I think what companies have realized is that with the immense amount of change that's underway, due to a variety of reasons, the idea of communication with the frontline becomes more important, because we need to not just direct, but bring them into some of the goings on of the organization.

Sarah Nicastro: But I think the point here is to take that a step further, which is the frontline actually holds a wealth of knowledge, and opinions, and insights that can really drive that change. So rather than just communicating, how do we collaborate? Right? So I know with some of the work that you've been doing on Schneider's strategy, you all have done a very good job of really, truly valuing the frontline input, and making sure that you're getting that. Thinking about some of the ways that you are communicating and collaborating, to make sure that you are really being impactful and effective. So can you talk a little bit about that?

Karin Hamel: Yeah. So I have a background in marketing and internal communications. I started in field service, I was responsible for driving communication programs for our frontline. It was eye opening to me, and extremely challenging to try to figure out, okay, how do I effectively do that? Because these are not people that are sitting behind a computer all day. It really was down to the working environment, and identifying that persona, white collar versus blue collar, and what does that look and feel like in the day-to-day?

Karin Hamel: So first and foremost, understanding how someone that's a service field worker, what their day looks like. A lot of windshields time, up in the morning, long drives, going to a different site every single day. Oftentimes, not using their laptop, using their mobile device instead. Not tethered to their Microsoft Outlook email inbox. Receive most of their information from their directing manager or supervisor. So with all of that said and done, your traditional newsletter that you do for communications is not going to cut it. That will not be read.

Karin Hamel: I have tried many things throughout the years, tried things like actually snail mailing a hard copy newsletter, we've done podcasts, we've done focus groups. But something that we've done very recently that I'm very excited about is we started doing strategy visualization. What does that really mean? Well, we started working with a vendor called The Nour Group. They helped us go through the whole strategy slide deck, that 40 page slide deck that we all have sitting in a desk drawer somewhere, on a thumb drive. Taking that, and boiling it down to one page, that's a very visual, graphic document, that really spells everything out, walks the reader or whoever is your audience through the whole strategy, and takes away that corporate speak. It really gives you that talk directly to the reader, your technician in this case, the real person, cut the MBA talk. That was something that I found I really needed some help with. It was nice to have someone point that out to me.

Karin Hamel: So using this visualization, and then printing it out on mousepad, using it as a backdrop for something else. Having it in many different places, so that it's really repeatable, the drum beat continuously throughout the year. It's something, like a war cry. Everyone can rally around this visualization and identify themselves there. I know what the things that I'm going to do in my day-to-day when I'm out onsite with customers. They're going to ultimately drive our ambitions for the year. So that's something that I will definitely be deploying for the unforeseeable future. I think I've cracked the code here, with all these other things I've tried.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. So just a couple of comments I want to make on this, because this was one of the sessions at the Service Council event. You and the Nour Group did this sort of live, right? So you showed how you took this huge PowerPoint, and made it into this one visual that everyone can refer back to. The reality is not everyone in the organization is going to look through a 40 slide PowerPoint. I mean, who would want to?

Sarah Nicastro: So again, I think a lot of the impactful change that companies are making today, and this is a really good example, is just breaking out of habits. Right? So you create strategy, you put it into the corporate deck, you put it on the drive, you send out an email and say, "Everyone, make sure you look at this. Let us know if you have questions." Whatever. Right? It's not bad. It's just the way it's been done. But these are the opportunities to really reflect and say, "Hmm. So far technicians are spending X amount of hours in their vehicle each day. If they're only accessing their laptop maybe, I don't know, two to three times a week, is this a realistic expectation? If not, what opportunity are we missing to communicate the information in this deck to them in a more relatable way?"

Sarah Nicastro: So I'm just saying that for all of you listening that weren't there to see this, it was really powerful to see how the key points of the overall strategy were put into this one page visual. I think that the idea of eliminating corporate speak, super important. The idea of putting in the context of why does this matter to me, whomever you're communicating it to, is super important. How do I fit into this strategy is super important. The idea of it being repeatable, and seen in different places, so that there is an opportunity to catch it, and there is an opportunity to catch it over and over again. The other big point, to me, that this drove home, seeing it on a big screen, is you mentioned that oftentimes the frontline is getting the strategy message from their direct supervisor, right?

Sarah Nicastro: One of the things we've seen challenges with in, I'm not saying Schneider at all, but in different businesses throughout the years I've been doing interviews is you have a really good vision, mission, strategy, at the top, and it doesn't quite get to the frontline. It's kind of like, what's the old telephone game, where it just gets lost in translation. Sometimes, unfortunately, and this is another area that companies need to really understand, why does this happen?

Sarah Nicastro: But sometimes it's that level above, that middle management level that's managing the frontline that is the most disconnected, and maybe frustrated. So they don't share the passion of the people that created this strategy in communicating it. So what I liked about this visual is it's a very important reference point to make sure that everyone in the organization sees the same thing, and is on the same page. So you're not relying on that manager to communicate some synopsis of a 40 page PowerPoint. You're putting it out there in a way that everyone sees the same thing. So you minimize the risk of that breakdown in communication, which I also think is super important.

Karin Hamel: Yeah. So two things to follow up on that. So one, David Nour, he had the funniest statement. He was like, "What's the main radio station everyone is listening to? WIIFM, what's in it for me?" You get my point. So with these documents, how do you get through to the frontline? Show them what's in it for them. So if they can identify their contributions to the end goal in this visualization, and with what you're communicating. Then the other is I think what worked for us, and I mentioned it early on, was recognition. So we built up a recognition program around this strategy visualization doc and our Hero program. So if I'm a technician, and I can identify how I can contribute to our overall business ambitions by this kind of map, this resonates. Well, every time I do contribute or am delivering on one of those key outcomes, someone is going to recognize that behavior.

Karin Hamel: That's where we put in this peer-to-peer nomination. Anyone can go and say, "I'm going to catch you at doing something great. I'm going to encapsulate that in the form of a recognition." We have a woman that runs this program for us, and we have great internal communication. So people might not want to open up an email, or read some lengthy newsletter. But when they see their name in lights, they're certainly going to read that, or when they recognize a peer for doing something great. "Hey, he or she just got those accolades. I want to read that." So if we kind of keep it all connected, and this runs throughout the whole year, that has been a great accelerant to kind of create that movement in the culture that we want.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. For sure. We're going to talk a little bit more about that in a moment. Before we do, I want to talk about the fourth area, which is shifting the focus from purely effectiveness to empowerment with the frontline. So this is a huge thing. When I started covering this space, every single conversation was around how do we drive productivity? How do we make technicians more effective? How do we get to one more visit? How do we drive, drive, drive, cut, cut, cut, right? Obviously, every organization needs to maximize utilization, and make sure that technicians are effective, and productive. So that's not to take away from that.

Sarah Nicastro: But I think this idea of empowerment is very important, because we've better recognized the value of the frontline worker and all of the areas of the business that they can impact. It's not just about making sure they're effective. But it's really digging into what do they need from the company to be not just effective, but empowered, right? To have all of the insights they need on the job. To be able to make good decisions in real time. All of those things. As well as one of the things we talked about earlier, which is the idea of career development. Right? Giving people paths within the business to expand and continue their journey instead of looking elsewhere. So can you talk a little bit about the work that Schneider has done related to really empowering the frontline worker, to make sure that they have everything they need to be successful?

Karin Hamel: Yeah. Well, I think it starts with getting their feedback. So we have a survey that we do, a company-wide survey once a year. We say everyone is over surveyed these years. So the promise is once a year, if there was one survey that you had to take, take this one, because we want to hear your voice. As a result of getting that feedback, we put action plans in place to say, "What are the key drivers that are really influencing our employee's day? Are they happy?" Because happy people make happy customer. We really want to make sure they feel happy to show up to work every day. So first and foremost is listening to them. Gathering their feedback, and then creating those meaningful action plans that are going to enhance their day, their life at work. Sometimes, it's a matter of the right tooling and outfitting from a physical standpoint. Sometimes it's, we know that people say they don't want to do paperwork.

Karin Hamel: So how can we create efficiencies in terms of process or systems that we can free up their time, and give them their energy back to go and face that customer, and deliver an outstanding service experience? Other times, and you mentioned it, is, yeah, career path. Let's make sure that they see, if they have ambitions to go do something else, make sure that they feel like they can voice that to their manager, first of all, and show them a path. Then I think the last is mentorship. So creating a space for them to be able to talk about other things with someone maybe more senior than them, and matching them up, like a buddy system.

Karin Hamel: We have amazing internal training programs at Schneider, so if you decide that you'd like to go practice a different trade, or get into leadership, all the tools are at your disposal. So let's make sure we give them time in their day, in their week, to go invest that back. So this time of year, people are typically figuring out their utilization targets for next year. So if you're in control of that, think about how you might add a few hours back into their lives to give them time for that development.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I think it's this recognition that the recognition of the frontline as talent, not just for their contribution. Right? So the historical view is just output, output, output. Right? But we've started to realize, what are we putting in to sustain that output? And expand that output, as the role changes, what more do our workers need from us to be able to expand, evolve in their own careers, and to your point, be happy? It's not just about what all can we get out of them. Then you're going to have a retention problem. So it's really also about what do they need? Even the visualization thing. There is this idea, I think, tied to empowerment is feeling invested in the story, and the company's mission. So not just throwing that out there and hoping they find it. But making sure it resonates, and making sure they feel a part of the whole Schneider story.

Karin Hamel: Right.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. So the final area I want to come back to is around recognition. So you touched on the Hero program and what you're doing there. Again, I want to emphasize that as the workforce changes, the end all and be all is not just financial reward. Obviously, employees want to be fairly paid, and everyone should be fairly paid. But I think the point here is that these workers lack historically in being acknowledged and recognized for the important contributions they make. So again, just talk a little bit more about, so the Hero program. You mentioned it's a peer-to-peer nomination. This is, I think, a really important step toward making sure that these folks feel seen and valued for the hard work that they're doing.

Karin Hamel: Yeah. I mean, ultimately, so for me, leading services for the business unit. I'm responsible for setting the ultimate direction and the strategy, and then everything backing up into, okay, well, what do we need to do today to get there? What does the current situation look like? So I ask myself, what are the outcomes that I want to deliver? Then you back your way into, well, what are the behaviors and actions that I need the people to drive to create those outcomes? So then if we can map out those types of behaviors and actions for every persona in the organization, and specifically for field services here, that's how we started and arrived at that strategy visualization document. So that every technician could look at that and identify themselves, and say, "All right, this is clear. Simple roadmap. I need to do X, Y, and Z to plug into the overall direction and ambition of the group. Okay."

Karin Hamel: So we started, created a survey link. We've got some cash bonuses in place for those that are being strategically recognized. In the past, we have done president's club trip for these people. So picking one name at the end of the year for various reasons, and sending them on that sales president's club trip. That was very well received, as you might imagine. Another cool thing that came out of this was one of our monthly spotlight heroes, he was a technician out of Philadelphia, he felt so glad that he had been seen, and once we could tap into him, he had so many great ideas for how to improve the culture and the workforce.

Karin Hamel: He actually volunteered, he said, "Can we do a podcast?" So of course, let's try it. So great idea. If that's what you think is going to resonate with these folks. So giving them something. He's like, "There is only so many radio stations and satellite radio I can listen to. Let's give us something else, and let's talk shop on this podcast." So we've been trying that out lately. But it was nice to see, you know what? If we hadn't had this recognition program in place, I don't think we would have had the vehicle to get that idea out of Gary in Philadelphia. So you never know what can spin off from these types of programs.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. It's such a good point. Like I said, you want to create an environment where he is not just sitting on that thought, or that idea, or that feedback. You want him to feel engaged and valued so that he'll speak up. Right? You also want to create a space where it's okay if every idea isn't the best idea. But how do you get more dialogue around those things? Because that's how you're going to find the really cool, innovative things. It's funny, when you were talking about windshield time, the first thing I thought was podcast, because it just ... It is a really good use of that vehicle time for them to have an opportunity, whatever, that could take a ton of different paths, right? So I think it's really cool that you're doing that. Good job, Gary, for coming up with the idea. That's awesome.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay, so Karin, in summary, is there any other insights, opinions, comments you have on this topic and how the industry needs to rise up to meet the needs of the workforce of the future?

Karin Hamel: So I think for me, it's three points. One is invest in technology that is going to catapult you into the modern day experience that customers expect. So when you get those ... I'm speaking firsthand. When you get those emails from vendors that say, "Hey, notice you downloaded a white paper. Can I get some of your time? Hey, I saw you were speaking at this event, can I do a demo with you?" If you're like me, you're bombarded with those type of things, and you usually delete them. Take the time to entertain one here or there, and listen to what the industry is doing. Give it some attention. It will pay off.

Karin Hamel: Number two, invest in programs for your people. So what can you do? Listen to their feedback, and what can you do to free up their time, create a better workplace for them? Number three is just keep it real. Stay close to the frontline. Find opportunities to get out in the field, go onsite with your technicians, see the day-to-day firsthand, because that's really going to keep you honest and connected. You remember that corporate speak, MBA speak versus real talk? Never lose sight of just keeping it real.

Sarah Nicastro: That's a really good point, Karin. I think the investment of leadership's time in hands-on, face-to-face time with the frontline, right? I mean, I think that is an investment that pays dividends, both in being able to have an opportunity to hear some of their thoughts and ideas firsthand. But also, what it says to them, and shows them about how you value their contribution, right? It's easy to sit back behind your laptop and, "Oh, good job." It's a totally different thing to go sit in the truck all day, visit customers with them, and make them feel that you're present, you see them, you value them. I think that's a very, very, very good point. So good.

Sarah Nicastro: Well, thank you so much for coming on and sharing today. I'm excited to stay tuned on the Hero program, and all of the other things that you all are doing. I believe, for those listening, I believe that the service council sessions are available on demand. So if you have an opportunity to go back to that archive and take a look at the session that Karin and David Nour did on strategy visualization, it's a really, really good session. So I highly recommend you do that. I appreciate your time today, Karin.

Karin Hamel: Yeah. Thanks, Sarah. It was my pleasure.

Sarah Nicastro: Yes. Thank you. All right, you can find more by visiting us at futureoffieldserviceref.ifs.com. You can also find us on LinkedIn as well as Twitter @thefutureofFS. The Future of Field Service Podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at IFS.com. As always, thank you for listening.

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