Episode 289

In this episode of the Unscripted podcast, host Sarah Nicastro welcomes Dr. Kawal Kapoor, Research Manager at the Advanced Services Group of Aston Business School, and Sandra Benbow, Senior Industrial Fellow and Servitization Mentor, for a discussion based on both their research and hands-on work with firms, about how coalitions play a valuable role in the Servitization journey.

Kawal oversees research for the Advanced Services Partnership, focusing on publishing in top peer-reviewed journals and creating executive workshops and mini-guides on servitization. In her book, Servitization Strategy, she explores outcome-based business models, known as Advanced Services Business Models, offering practical guidance on how firms can innovate these services through servitization.

Sandra is a business growth coach, ecosystem builder, and innovation champion. Over the last twenty years, she has helped over 400 founders and senior executives launch, scale, and grow their businesses. Sandra is also a Business Growth and Management Coach for the Evergreen Coaching Group and an ITU Digital Ecosystem Expert at the International Telecommunication Union.

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Episode Highlights:

Kawal - 00:00:00: So you speak of servitization, it's that transformation of an industrial firm. So we're talking massive organizational change. And we know that everything to do with servitization and manufacturing firms is first met with resistance. And when you think of coalitions, you think of a group of people who, when they're working together, will have just enough power to lead change in an organization.

Sarah - 00:00:32: Welcome to the UNSCRIPTED podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today, we're going to be talking about the role that coalitions can play in the advanced services journey. I am excited to welcome back to the podcast, Kawal Kapoor. Dr. Kawal Kapoor is the Research Manager at The Advanced Services Group of Aston Business School, along with Sandra Benbow, who is Senior Industrial Fellow at The Advanced Services Group. So ladies, welcome to the podcast.

Sandra - 00:01:17: Thank you.

Kawal - 00:01:18: Thank you.

Sarah - 00:01:18: Thanks for being here. So some of you that listen regularly may remember Kawal from episode number 266. We had a great conversation then. We're going to have another great conversation today along with Sandra. And before we get into everything, I'm going to ask you both to just share a little bit more about yourselves. And Kawal, not everyone may have seen your first go-round on the podcast. So let's start with you and share whatever you would like.

Kawal - 00:01:47: First off, thank you, Sarah, for having me here again. It's good to be doing another podcast with you. You're about me. Yes, my name is Kawal Kapoor. And as you mentioned, I'm the Research Manager for The Advanced Services Group. We are a research-based group focused on servitization. And I take on the responsibility of developing and maintaining our research IP and managing our research activities, basically. So it's my job to guarantee that our research is reliable, it's credible, it's ethical, and it contributes to the advancement of knowledge in the field of servitization. So the last podcast you invited me to, we spoke about the servitization playbook. Which is a great example of the practice-informed work we do. And now one of the newest research outputs, again, very much informed by what happens across firms and directors, is our mini-guide on building winning coalitions for servitization. So I'm very happy to be here today to speak to you about this brand new mini-guide. And of course, we have Sandra with us. Sandra, you want to introduce yourself?

Sandra - 00:02:52: Thanks, Kawal. And Sarah, thank you for inviting me along. I know, as I said, Kawal is a pro and she's done this before. So it's my first time here. And yes, as you said, I'm a Senior Industrial Fellow for Aston Business School, the The Advanced Services Group. And I'm also a Servitization Advisor with the group. I've been working in servitization, advanced services, almost seven years, which I can't believe it's that long. So I was managing for two years when I was in the UK, our SME program, working with small and medium-sized businesses and really helping them to understand the benefits of services and how to develop the value propositions around services and new business models. And then the last four to five years I've been over in Germany. So I'm based near Hamburg and I work with our global manufacturing companies, predominantly in Europe. So we have a large base of customers over in Europe as well as other parts of the world. So we are growing as an organization, but my role is really to work hands on with the company. So while Kawal is very much engaged with the research agenda and making sure that, as you said, that we have the IP from the companies, we're really there helping, I'm helping them to practically apply the models and frameworks that have been developed through the work that Kawal does through our mini guides and working very closely with Kawal and the team to really help companies understand the research and how that applies to their business journey, especially in terms of this servitization agenda. So that's me. Thank you.

Sarah - 00:04:14: Yes. And thank you both for being here. Any of our regular or long-time listeners should be familiar with the The Advanced Services Group. We've had Professor Tim Baines on the podcast numerous times, as well as others from the organization. And I've interviewed a good number of the companies that you all do this work with. And I've stated before, but will state again, what I've always appreciated so much about The Advanced Services Group is that it is that combination of the research, Kawal, that you lead and conduct to assess what's going on and what the trends are. But also it's grounded in that practice of working with organizations yourselves, and seeing how that research applies what it looks like in the real world. And a lot of times organizations are doing one or the other, but it's you're doing both, which I have found makes your content very insightful. So I'm glad you're both here. So, Kaw, I'm going to start with you. Today, we're talking about the idea of coalitions and the role that they play in the servitization journey. So, can you start with just telling everyone what exactly a coalition is?

Kawal - 00:05:25: Yeah, sure. So if you look for like coalitions, they're literally everywhere, right? So you look at cartels, creation of cartels, you look at lobbying groups, you look at unions, these are all examples of coalitions. And they're all formed with a specific agenda of achieving very specific goals. So you look at them as temporary alliances where either groups or individuals are coming together, but they are there to achieve specific shared goals. And in an ideal case, these members of a coalition are going to prioritise on an immediate objective and they're going to avoid focusing on unrelated matters. And they're all very motivated by this pursuit of influence, of control. So basically, you'll find coalitions within farms where multiple stakeholders have agreed to team up so they can influence decisions so they can shape policies to be able to influence how resources within the farm are being distributed or allocated. And they're all collectively focused on an issue or issues that are of significant interest to all of them, basically. All coalition members are in it together. And whether you're looking at organisational studies or you go towards social psychology or you go to political science, they're all studying how individuals with shared goals will form a coalition to work together so they can influence decisions and achieve common goals. So that's coalition-y.

Sarah - 00:07:04: Yeah, so sort of the strength in numbers concept.

Kawal - 00:07:07: Yeah, unified front.

Sarah - 00:07:09: Yeah, for sure. So when we think about the advanced services or servitization journey, what purpose or purposes are you seeing coalitions play in that journey?

Kawal - 00:07:21: When I speak of servitization, it's that transformation of an industrial firm. So we're talking massive organizational change. And we know that everything to do with servitization and manufacturing firms is first met with resistance. And when you think of coalitions, you think of a group of people who, when they're working together, will have just enough power to lead change in an organization. And we say that as a first step or a critical step for any firm that's getting on the servitization journey, you need to establish a strong foundation. And this foundation really needs a dedicated group of people, individuals who believe in the servitization vision, who are willing to champion this transformation by collaboratively working towards the chair vision. And that's what coalition does. It helps you build that support. It builds that momentum for servitization within the firm. It brings different stakeholders from different departments. So you can bring in the right people with the right skills, with the right expertise to push forward the servitization initiative. And the firms that we've worked with, and they're all at different stages of their servitization journey. And one of the many problems that they have, they often come across departmental silos. And for a change initiative like servitization. For it to be successful, you want to ideally break down these silos. And coalition building is something that we see as like a solution in this regard. So it becomes a means to cultivate that culture of collaboration, of uniting individuals from different departments. So. They can come together and they can leverage their combined expertise and push forward with servitization. That united front, right? So you want, when you stand united as a group and you're so focused on pushing something forward, the credibility of that servitization initiative just increases and it makes it more likely for that group to secure the resources that they're after or overcome the internal resistance. So coalition helps you build capacity.

Sarah - 00:09:37: Mm-hmm.

Kawal - 00:09:38: And you can achieve bigger goals by operating as a coalition. So your financial burden are shared, your risks are shared, and therefore they're lower. Your access to resources and ideas and technologies suddenly becomes higher. And that's how you see coalitions play a big role in a firm's privatization journey.

Sarah - 00:09:56: Yeah. It's interesting, as you were talking, I felt like I read your mind a little bit because I was thinking, when I think about where I see companies struggle in this journey, a lot of times because our audience is composed of a lot of service leadership. What we see is this, I don't want to say misunderstanding. It isn't always. It can be or it can just be. They're constricted by looking at this within the lens of service itself. So thinking about it as service innovation versus business transformation, right? And so they can have great ideas and see a lot of the value, but they're still doing so from their own silo, right? Like they're not. And so I think to your point, that's what I was thinking when you started sharing is this not only helps build that momentum, but I would imagine it helps organizations avoid a lot of like fits and starts. Because if you can create that alignment at the beginning, right, it helps you work, not only build that influence as a united front, but keep the vision and the strategy united as you progress through the journey. So very good. So, Sandra, can you share a little bit about. In the servitization context, who ideally would be taking part in the coalition?

Sandra - 00:11:24: Yeah, absolutely. I think in terms of servitization, we know from lots of research and working really closely with firms, this is a really difficult and complex journey. And as we've said already, actually having that united front is absolutely essential. But really understanding who should be part of that coalition, selecting the right people, engaging and managing the right people is really the foundation of a successful servitization program. So I think some of the points already Cal's picked up on and mentioned actually play into this as well. I think one of the biggest factors is really about having the power and influence within the coalition. I think where it's been particularly successful, you need senior leaders across the business to be part of that. Because without power and influence, you can't really instigate any kind of change or have the authority to instigate any kind of change. So there needs to be some senior leadership within the coalition and maybe I think different department heads as well. So we're thinking about those diverse silo busting teams that we need to bring into this. It's not just about, as you say, it's not just about the services, people understanding this. Actually, the coalition is also helping to educate people within the business. So having people from different parts of the company and we find that there's always a bit of conflict between product and service and understanding of what servitization is and how that would benefit the firm. Having people who are from different parts of the business. We've had people from product, from marketing, from sales and service. And really those different departments can help bring diverse viewpoints and also make sure that other views are represented in this coalition. So I think the diversity of the coalition is important and also reputation and credibility. So we've got senior leaders, but are they those senior leaders? Are they respected and are they credible? And are they strong leaders who really will motivate and inspire people to follow them and build that consensus and navigate these challenges? So I think there's a number of factors to consider when putting together and developing a coalition and who might be those members. And then within the coalition, they all play different roles as the coalition develops and grows. But from the outset, I think it's important to get those key players. And over time, that will evolve and change as the coalition and the servitization agenda moves forward for the company as well.

Sarah - 00:13:46: That makes sense. And I was thinking about an interview I did a while back with a gentleman, Howard Boland, who led, I don't think he's with Schneider anymore, but he led a service for Schneider Electric in Australia. And we were talking about like his effort to bring forward power as a service. Okay. And he said this thing, which I really liked, but I'm reflecting on it in the context of our conversation, which is he started by looking for the adventurers. And so I think that can be a really good way to get started. But I also think when I was listening to what you were sharing, I was thinking about the importance of having those adventurers as part of the coalition, but also making sure it's not only the adventurers, right? Because those are the people who are going to be... More open to risk, more open to change, more excited and passionate about the opportunity versus you need to be grounding that in some of those pockets of resistance or skepticism or even just healthily vetting the ideas that you're discussing and the path that you're setting forward. So I was just thinking about that connection and it's interesting.

Sandra - 00:15:03: I think you're right in terms of bringing up the first people who are likely to want to join would be those adventurers. I suppose they're the early adopters and they can see the benefits quite clearly. But as you say, bringing on people who are more implementers as well maybe in terms of you need action. You've got to get those people as part of the coalition as well.

Sarah - 00:15:23: Yeah. And I mean, we know that there are different types of leaders, right? It's not... Common for someone to be both the innovator and the change agent and also the operational execution-centric type of leader. So you have to make sure you're balancing that. Okay. So, Kawal, other than making sure that you have the right people involved, what else makes a coalition effective in helping companies progress through this journey?

Kawal - 00:15:56: I think one of the most important things is for the coalition to have that very well-defined vision for the change initiative. And this needs to be agreed by all members, which is a clear vision of how servitization is going to benefit the firm, how our service is going to enhance their product offerings, how they're going to benefit their customers, improve customer satisfaction. And basically what they want is a lot of new revenue streams. It's a lot of hows. And that shared vision is what is going to keep the team focused, keep the coalition focused. It's going to motivate them through the challenges. It's going to allow them to communicate the benefits of servitization quite effectively to others in the firm, which is really important, especially when something like servitization is often met with resistance. So you need that. Then you also want to look at what this structure of the coalition is looking like. It is who does what in a coalition. So Sandra mentioned leadership. So this is important. Appointing a dedicated coalition leader to spearhead that initiative. Because you want someone to give you that strategic direction. It's important. And it's also quite early on assigning responsibilities amongst the coalition members based on their skills, their interests, whether it's various service specific or their expertise is in product development or you want customer service to be involved in this. So all of the relevant areas to be covered based on their strengths. And very much early on communicating to these members of the coalition. What a successful privatization would mean for them, because that's what's going to keep them motivated. That's what's going to keep them in the coalition, because people drop in and out of coalition all the time. But what you want is retention, and you want to retain the people who are going to pull through and take the agenda forward. And this might sound simple, and this might sound something that all of us know about, but... For a coalition to be effective, you want to build... That positive collaborative environment. You want to define clear communication channels. And because this is something so simple, it can very easily be overlooked. Things like building rapport, encouraging open and honest communication, especially when you're discussing challenges and opportunities with servitization are big, are massive, and you can be adventurous and you can dream up all of the outcomes. But to achieve it, you need that level of communication. And the coalition really needs contingency plans in place because conflicts are coming. You know, what the potential conflicts are going to look like. It could be something as simple as disagreements over strategies. It could be something to do with resource allocation, with customer engagement, or something that you've completely not accounted for, unexpected conflicts. And I think the last point is, of course, you can't miss out on recognizing and rewarding achievements and servitization and learning from setbacks and then applying those learnings in your future efforts. So you need to have plans in place to, like I was saying a minute ago, to maintain the interest of the coalition members, to have their commitment as you progress over time, and essentially adapt the coalition's approach as needed. Because everything evolves and you need to move with the evolution.

Sarah - 00:19:32: What about, are there any, like, notable common missteps?

Kawal - 00:19:37: Yeah, the notes, like I could possibly do an entire podcast with you around the missteps. But yeah, it's a good point to actually touch on that. So as it happens, conflict is one of the most inherent aspects of coalition, right? So despite having a shared vision, a coalition is, it has different people and different people with different ways of how they approach tasks and how they approach decision making. And it becomes really, really prominent, really obvious during periods of organizational change with servitization. So you start to see conflicting priorities. You'll see competing interests between coalition members. And this will cause disputes. This will affect your timelines. And this will affect the level of trust your coalition members have amongst themselves. So this is something that can really threaten. This debilitating. Of a coalition. While we're at it, you don't want to have too many long-term goals. So too much focus on long-term goals is something you want to avoid because you need short-term objectives that can lead to really quick wins. Otherwise, the danger with these long-term goals is they can bring down a coalition's morale and it's going to negatively affect the momentum of your coalition. And we were talking about the leadership, right? So one of the dangers is senior leaders, disengaging from the coalition after it's formed. You want leadership involvement because it really massively helps in managing resistance. So if you don't have their ongoing support, a coalition can struggle to implement the changes that it's planned for. Recruiting the wrong people, it's going to create very weak group dynamics. Reflecting personalities, you're headed towards a dysfunctional coalition because ideally, you want to recruit individuals who share compatible values and beliefs. This is difficult to achieve, but you really need to. Consider the long-term implications. Sabotage is not an overnight journey, right? It's going to take you a good while. So you need to consider the long-term implications of working with different people and how their values are going to interact and might impact your coalition's effectiveness. And when you're recruiting people, you want to avoid, you want to be careful about the composition of your coalition. So you need a good mix of frontline staff. You need little managers. You need senior level staff, right? It can be... Very tempting to have higher senior level representation and it's valuable But if we start to rely too much on the higher level staff, it could mean that you're undermining buy-in from other parts of the organization. So you want that mix, you want that balanced mix where you've got the strategic vision, but then you also have the operational expertise. So again, everything for effective change management. And we touched upon communication earlier. One of the biggest things that happens with poor communication is duplicating effort because coordination is crucial in coalitions. So if people are not going to be communicating, then they'd be working, there'd be duplicating effort, there'll be work done across purposes. And I think it comes down, and that's what we've seen, it comes down to the coalition leader to either identify someone who can perform this role, or take it upon themselves to make sure that... This does not happen. If the coalition has not sufficiently gone for external shocks. Then we see a coalition getting derailed very quickly. One final thing, and this was an interesting one for me when I was doing the research on coalitions, the idea of a counter-coalition. You have to be wary of counter-coalitions. You can't rule them out. And these will be formed deliberately. Within firms to disrupt a coalition's progress. So they're just opposing groups. They're targeting specific issues and they're looking to undermine your coalition's goals. So you need to have measures in place to counter these coalitions. So yeah, there's loads of things. Sorry, I can keep going.

Sarah - 00:24:00: Yeah, okay. So Sandra, with the hands-on work you do with some of the group's partners who are on this journey, what have you found in terms of the success organizations who put a coalition in place have versus those who don't?

Sandra - 00:24:18: Good question. I can think of quite a few nicer examples here. I'll just choose two. I think one of the six, we'll start with the success because it's always nice to talk about the successful businesses. I think one of the successful companies that we've worked with, they worked very early on to create a guiding coalition for this program and for the civilization strategy. And I think as some of the things that Kawal's mentioned in the mishaps and what to avoid, they were able to recruit a really strong management team, but also people from within the business, from other parts of the business as well. So that middle and middle management and also people who are on the front line. So there was a really good mix and also people who are customer facing, because I think that's so important when you're designing new business models, when you're designing new value propositions, having people who actually do have that contact with the customer as well. And understand from the customer's shoes, we're always talking about servitization really starts there with the customer. So they've really got an understanding of why this is a, they've got the vision and they've got the strategy and they've got a good understanding within the coalition itself. So it's about shared interests, common goals and having a team that are willing to explore the opportunities. So this is a company that have put all the foundations in place. They've thought about who should be in the coalition. They've started developing coalition very early in their journey and they've actually strategically identified people that they wanted to bring on board and made sure that there's a good mix and a diverse team to support what they're doing. And they've gone through different parts of the business as well. So what that's really helped them do is help them secure the resources and the momentum because it is a complex non-linear journey. We know companies have those stops and starts, but it's really helped them. There's a lot of these large global companies can take 10 years to move through this change process. So I think we've seen that they, they're, they're quite early on the journey, but they've actually been able to navigate quite a few of the challenges early on and move forward more quickly because they've got a coalition in place. And then now they're strengthening that coalition across the wider business. And we're doing quite a lot of work with them in terms of mapping stakeholders, internal communications. And so it's really trying to influence and bring on board the wider business as well for this agenda. So I think that's an example, I think of an early company, it's early on the journey, but they've really started in the right way and avoided, some of those missteps that Kawal's already mentioned. And then we do, I mean, I think they're referenced in the privatization strategy book. We do have companies that have been unsuccessful. Not every company is going to be successful with the privatization program. If it was, then we wouldn't need, we wouldn't need to be here and everyone could do it. It's very difficult to do it. It's a really difficult competitive strategy for companies to, to achieve. And the company that I'm thinking of, obviously I won't mention any names, but it was, it's really about, you say like that, that strength in numbers. And they had a couple of people who were very bought into the idea of services. This was, I think probably five or six years ago. And they'd been working in this space for some time, really trying to sort of push the agenda and bring people on board. But I think the biggest challenge they had was that they didn't, that senior level buy-in, they really struggled to get that. And they really struggled to grow the coalition and build and galvanize support behind the agenda. And eventually, I think it was a cultural issue. I think there wasn't, there wasn't much understanding of the benefits of servitization across the business. And there wasn't really the support. And eventually, I think that the key person who was driving that agenda actually left and went to work for another company because they basically got fed up with trying to bang the drum and trying to move this forward. So sometimes, sometimes it won't work. And if you can't get the support behind it and the right people in place, but also it might not be a good match for the culture in the organization. So it doesn't always work. But the coalition, it was very clear they didn't have a coalition. And that was a big part of why it wasn't successful in the end.

Sarah - 00:28:10: Yeah, that makes sense. And I like your point about the first example you shared. It takes some time, obviously, to put a coalition together and to make sure that you have the right members and the right focus. And Kaw, to your point, the right, not only ultimate goal, but objectives and milestones that you want to work toward. That foundational work, Sandra, to your point, then can help you progress through the continuum. Not necessarily faster, could be faster with more ease, perhaps, than you see companies that... Don't have that from the beginning that end up, I'm thinking of your roadmap and then the game. So I was at a session with Professor Baines and the group at Tetra Pak in July, and we played the game, the board game of the serpentization roadmap. And there's all these things that can take you back to the beginning, right? And so if you have that coalition, it doesn't mean that won't happen, but the likelihood of getting pushed back to the starting line decreases. So that's a good way to think about it.

Kawal - 00:29:16: Definitely. Because you played the snakes and ladders game.

Sarah - 00:29:18: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Sandra, I know that one of the things that the The Advanced Services Group does with your partners is host roundtables and different partners will host these and there's different topics associated. So I know you had one in September that was on the topic of coalitions. And I'm just curious, anything you could share from that day and those conversations, in terms of the real world insight of the companies participating on what they think about this, where they are with this, anything that stood out to you?

Sandra - 00:29:56: Absolutely. Yeah. As you said, we meet regularly, well, three times a year with our partners. And these are great opportunities for us to really work with the companies, understand their challenges and where they are, and also share the latest best practice in terms of serpentization and the research. And we always pick a topic that's very close to the hearts of our partners. And coalitions and coalition building has come up again and again. So it was really important that we focused. It was actually two whole days of thinking about coalitions. And obviously, Al was sharing the latest research that we've been doing in this space. And I think all of our partners have coalitions. I don't think they would be able to be on the journey without them. And I think they all see them as essential in driving their services agenda. So obviously, we are working with these forward thinking companies that are already on this path to servitization. So I think they're very, they're bought into the idea of coalitions. But as you say, we have partners at different stages of that journey. Some of the companies, we are new members who've joined in the last year or two, and they're maybe at the start of that transformational roadmap. So they're really just about creating the guiding coalitions. But I think, and then obviously the other companies that we have who have been with us for some time, obviously they have sort of stronger, more established coalitions that they are, they're developing and they're nurturing. And so they see them again as a real sort of essential component to navigate the servitization landscape and servitization journey. I think there's a lot of best practice sharing. So they're talking about what's worked well. And I think some examples with some of the companies have done some work on stakeholder mapping internally and thinking about which stakeholders do we actually need to bring in and who is essential to our coalition and being a bit more strategic about how they develop and grow it and the different roles that people will play in the coalition. Obviously, as Kawal said, that having that vision and having that strategy and the leader on board and consistent leadership during that period. And it can be quite a, it's a long journey. It can be some time. So I think those that have done particularly well have had consistent leadership, they've had consistent senior level support. And also the teams that they've created have been these cross-functional multidisciplinary teams. So they're following the guidance that I think we'll be putting out, a lot of the guidance that we'll be putting out. But also like Kawal said, I think a key part is leadership and communication. And I think those were sort of themes that were discussed quite a lot over the two days as well. So I think all in all, coalitions are super important for servitization and companies do recognize that in order to be successful on a program, successful on a servitization program, they need a strong coalition and they are spending time and resources developing the coalition so they can move forward in the journey, whether they can move quickly, but they'll still meet the challenges, but it might be smoother for them when they have that support behind them. So yeah, I think that was some of the insights that I heard when we were talking with the partners from the different organizations.

Sarah - 00:32:59: Yeah. And I mean, it just comes back to the benefit of community, right? And so there's value in the research you guys are doing, of course, on its own. There's value in the one-to-one work, Sandra, you and others are doing with the partners that you have to help advise them and support them along this journey, but there's such huge value in the opportunity to bring these folks together three times a year and give them the chance to not only engage with the broader The Advanced Services Group team, but to really spend that time engaging with one another. I mean, I'm, we have our own events. I'm a huge believer in I always say, If you come to one of our events, no one's going to give you a blueprint for success on any given topic. But in hearing those different perspectives, there's going to be these lightbulb moments that can really affect the trajectory of your own journey. Just by making you think a little bit differently about something or by bringing something to the forefront of your mind that you hadn't thought about before. That is hard to do if it isn't based on those shared experiences. So, yeah, it's great that you all are engaging in all of those different ways. And it helps you stay grounded to what... The real world is saying and thinking and needing, but it also really provides a lot of value to them to get to know one another. And to one of my favorite pieces of feedback that I've gotten so many times through our future field service events is I feel so much less alone because I didn't realize how many other people have the same challenge. And, to me, like, there is no better feedback, right? Because life can be hard and work can be hard. And when you're nose down and you can think, oh, my gosh, we're the only company struggling with this or we're the I'm the only leader that doesn't have this figured out. And when you can come together in those ways and those people realize, oh, my gosh, like. I'm just like everyone else. No one has it all figured out. No one's doing everything perfectly. I think there's so much value in that as well. So wonderful. All right. So before we get to, I want to share some information and resources here at the end. But Kawal, before I do that, any closing thoughts on coalitions and what we've talked through today?

Kawal - 00:35:29: But something that you just said, Sarah, it's funny that everyone's in the same boat. Nobody's figured out what they want or how to do it. They know what they want, but they don't know how to do it. Right? So the direction that we take with our research, it's like heavily influenced by our strategic advisory panel. And we have this meeting with the advisory panel from time to time. And the last meeting was just that. It turned into, oh, that's okay. Even people have got this figured out. And it's that sense of belonging to the community who are all on the same journey. So they're all industry people, right? They're coming from partner firms. And they just give us these valuable insights into. The challenges they're facing and the challenges that are affecting their industry. And we identify what research we need to do based on what they're saying. But it's amazing. You should watch them all sat together complaining about the same things. And then they realize they're not alone. Everyone's facing the same thing. But no, thank you. It was great chatting to you today. And I guess one last point to mention would be that all of our mini guides and this mini guide as well on coalitions, when we design anything like this one, we are always keeping the managers and executives of industrial firms in our mind. So those with a product manufacturing background and they're now looking to sell services to the customers. So even with coalition, when you talk about a strong coalition, it's like a powerhouse of shared resources and skills, of expertise, of market knowledge. And. The mini guide, in this mini guide, we get into how you can... Select and engage and manage the right people in a coalition to drive the servitization initiative within these firms. So we've developed a framework. It comes right at the end of the mini guide, which executives can use to build a strong, effective servitization coalition. They can use it to monitor its effectiveness from time to time and basically keep that momentum going for the coalition. So there's a nice framework also. Wrapped up in the mini guide.

Sarah - 00:37:39: Wonderful. So is that mini guide available now or it's coming soon?

Kawal - 00:37:45: Yeah, so it's in its final stages. We have to put it through design. So that's what's happening now. But it's going to be released December this year. Because we were talking about a minute ago, our next roundtable is at Baker Hughes and going to be focusing on business cases and how to frame a business case for different stakeholders. And it aligns with our ongoing work in coalition building. So we want to be able to take these mini guides to that roundtable and share our insights with our partners. So yeah, the timeline is, it comes out in December. It's going to be available on our online store. So that's advancedservicesgroup.co.uk. And it should be available to buy in December.

Sarah - 00:38:29: Okay, perfect. So for everyone listening, so the Coalition mini guide will be coming in December. The roundtables are specifically for The Advanced Services Group partners. But just to explain, that's just one piece of how you all are working with your partners. So there's a lot of other things to understand about the partnership between The Advanced Services Group and the firms that it works with. You can find that information, contact information, and the mini guide on coalitions, as well as some other resources at, as Kawal said, advancedservicesgroup.co.uk. Also, there is The Advanced Services Group page on LinkedIn, so you can also make sure that you are following along there. And I mean, of course, we'll have you back again before too long to share some more. So thank you both for coming and spending some time with me today and for having this conversation for our listeners. And I look forward to the next one.

Sandra - 00:39:31: Thank you.

Sarah - 00:39:32: Okay. You can find more of our content from the UNSCRIPTED podcast, as well as Future of Field Service articles by visiting futureoffieldservice.com. The podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thank you for listening.