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April 6, 2022 | 23 Mins Read

TSIA on The State of Field Service in 2022

April 6, 2022 | 23 Mins Read

TSIA on The State of Field Service in 2022

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Sarah welcomes Vele Galovski, Vice President, Support and Field Services at TSIA for a conversation around the findings of his latest State of Field Service benchmark research.

Sarah Nicastro: Welcome to the Future of Field Service Podcast, I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today, we're going to be talking about the state of field service in 2022. I'm excited to welcome to the podcast today, Vele Galovski, who is the Vice President of Support and Field Services at TSIA. Vele, welcome to the Future of Field Service Podcast.

Vele Galovski: All right, thanks, Sarah. Appreciate it.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, thanks for being here. So, before we get into our conversation today, tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, your background, your role at TSIA, that sort of thing.

Vele Galovski: Okay, great. I've been at TSIA, the Technology Services Industry Association for just about the last nine years. Which, crazy to think about that someone would keep me employed for that duration time. But what we do at TSIA is we help our members accelerate their revenue performance to help them scale, and help them with their profitability. And we do that through education, assessment of their performance with our benchmarking, we understand what drives those good performance metrics. So we get very prescriptive with our best practices. And then we also develop frameworks to help align organizations, and we're going to talk about that today. There's a lot of alignment necessary when you go through a transformation. So that's kind of what I do here.

Vele Galovski: My background, before I came here, I had 20 plus years of executive experience in companies large and small. I worked in companies as big as Bank of America and Xerox Business Services, and as small as some mid-stage startups selling cloud solutions to oil and gas industry. Just going up and down the oil patch. So, I've been on both ends of the company corporate spectrum, and I think the one thing that's in common with all of those positions is I've really helped to drive transformation. How do you change your business? What do you have to do differently? And we'll talk about it, it all starts with the customer. If the customer ain't happy, ain't nobody happy, right.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Vele Galovski: Align your company along those lines.

Sarah Nicastro: Great. Now, I'm sure a lot of our listeners are familiar with TSIA already, but if any aren't, who are the members?

Vele Galovski: It's a Who's Who in the industry. We got our start over 15 years ago in Enterprise IT. So, you can look at that and the cloud companies, we've got companies like Oracle, like Cisco, like Hewlett-Packard Inc, and Hewlett-Packard Enterprise as members. As well as some big cloud companies like Amazon, Salesforce, and so on. Now, probably about six, seven years ago, helped stand up the industrial equipment and healthcare technology verticals here at TSIA, because what we started to see was everything that was happening in tech, is now happening to industrial equipment companies.

Vele Galovski: This digital transformation is just rolling right through and disrupting every industry it hits. So, in those areas, we do have a bunch of instrumentation companies, like PerkinElmer, like Emerson, like Rockwell, and now TSIA has over 30% of our members from the industrial equipment and equipment manufacturing space. So everybody's full gear, in terms of "Boy, what does this mean for us and what do we have to do?"

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, okay. Good, all right. So you recently released your State of Field Service 2022 Report, which is a lot of what we're going to talk about today, pulling some of the snippets from that. Before we really get into those specifics though, if you listen to what we're going to talk about today, if you look at the report, there's a lot of change at play right now. And so, I think there is... You and I have talked about the view that complacency is just not an option. So give your thoughts on why that is, and then we'll dig into some of those specifics.

Vele Galovski: Yeah, great question. I think everybody always believes that their business model is going to withstand forever, and just keep on moving ahead and make a good product. And that will change everything, that will rule the day. But, when everybody talks about digital transformation, the one topic that's always missed, I think in this discussion of digital transformation, is what we call democratization of the marketplace. So I'll use the auto industry in an example, I think we can all relate to it. Car companies, what do they like to do? Make, sell, and ship. Let's get cars, let's put new premium features in, and the dealers go out, and what do they want to do? They want to sell extended warranties, financing, rust protection here in the Northeast.

Vele Galovski: And when you look at it, what do customers want? Customers want to use that product to get from point A to point B. And so they end up buying a product, that when you really think about it, sits idle for 22 out of 24 hours a day. So, is that the best use of my capital? Is that the best way to do this? So now, out of nowhere, or out of a completely different place, come these ride sharing apps. Things that are focused on the customer need to get them quickly, easily, safely from point A to point B. And guess what, they don't care about building or selling cars. They don't have huge factories to keep in motion and supply chains and all that other stuff.

Vele Galovski: So what ends up happening is, an entirely new set of competitors comes into a marketplace. And if you just sit idle and wait, you're going to be surprised. And you're not looking in your rear view mirror, your side view mirror, you're not looking at all this. And the example's kind of abound, you've got Amazon doing prescription delivery. You've got Google getting involved in manufacturing execution systems. Once again, they don't care about making the pills. They don't care about making whatever in the assembly line, but they all care about, "How do I use data to inform better performance and to do stuff, that doesn't require all that CapEx, and the transfer of the asset."

Vele Galovski: So, I'd like to coin this idea of complacency in terms of a race. When everybody's a tech company today, will these other new entrants learn your industry faster than traditional OEMs learn technology and data? Who's going to win that race, and if you're complacent, you don't stand a chance. Right?

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, that makes sense. And so these customer needs, and the way that they're being met in a lot of consumer ways, a lot of the things we have access to day in and day out, is one area that's sort of driving the shift in business model transformation. The other is digital, so digital is the enabler of transforming these traditional business models.

Sarah Nicastro: That being said, digital transformation is one of those things that is tough, because there's different definitions, there's all sorts of layers to it that really make it something easy to understand on paper, far harder to execute in real life. What are some of the things that you think make digital transformation harder in reality than it seems on paper?

Vele Galovski: Yeah, it's one of those things, every time I hear something like that, it makes me think of a Will Rogers quote, "It ain't what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you know that ain't so." And I think there's a lot of people out there that talk about digital transformation and think it's something that it's not really. But to your question, the idea of what makes it harder for specifically manufacturers, and it's hard for everybody, but for manufacturers, think about it, the technology is on site. So when a customer buys the asset, and they operate it on their facility, as a manufacturer, I don't know how it's being used. And didn't have feedback, and knowing what we have to do different is important. So not knowing how it's being used is challenging, and that's different as opposed to some cloud consumer type application that was built in the cloud.

Vele Galovski: The second related piece of that is that the technology's not connected. So the capability exists, we've been talking about smart connected products, sensors can really replicate the physical properties of that product. But only a third of the install base is actually connected, where you're getting meaningful telemetry coming back out of that. And so, that's another inhibiting factor that makes it a little bit more difficult.

Vele Galovski: And then the third thing that we see is that the technology was sold by the channel. And everybody uses the channel, which is a great thing to expand distribution, but who bought it? Where's it installed? Are they using it? Who's using it? Is it still there? And all those questions need to be answered, and without the telemetry, without the connectivity, it makes it really difficult.

Vele Galovski: And then I think, the last thing is focus. Many people, and this is where the Will Roger's quote comes in, they think that digital transformation is all about automating processes. And then everybody gets really disappointed that, "Man, what happened? I thought this was going to change my world. What's the deal here?" And so we felt like we had to redefine digital transformation. We needed a new definition out there, which we've introduced over the last few months.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay, so tell us about that, and what you refer to as the digital transformation north star.

Vele Galovski: Yeah, it was a couple of our conferences ago, we do a number of different sessions, and I had a coffee session with Frederic Godemel, the EVP of Power Systems at Schneider Electric. And during that session, I sprung the digital information north star on him, "Frederic, with this new data that you're able to collect today, with this new data I can X, and no longer have to do Y." And so one of the things that he really liked about this, and that we hopped on was from his perspective, they can now remotely monitor distribution systems, and collect that data. And as a result of that, they can provide reactive optimized performance and reliability recommendations, and they no longer have to put somebody on site to operate, and shut down, and lock out live electrical equipment, and do that to begin to assess the system.

Vele Galovski: So, by using this definition, instead of just making it easier to see what's in the panel box, what he's able to do now is eliminate the task completely, and to monitor it remotely. And to keep it safe, and to provide good recommendations. So this idea of a north star focused on eliminating completely, as opposed to just automating, I think is really what people have to begin to look at and say, "This is what digital transformation is not about. Not just speeding things up and showing me what's in the panel box faster."

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative) Yeah. So we say the term work smarter, not harder. This is working smarter, not faster, right? So using digital not just to move faster, but to look at what work can be eliminated, and how you can accomplish tasks differently.

Vele Galovski: Yeah, and I think that the other aspect is, when we do digital transformation in this manner, we're talking about eliminating tasks. We're not talking about eliminating people. What we want to do, is we want to use this to automate the mundane, why use people to do things that are so easily eliminated and provided, and let's use people to do things that only people can do. Build relationships, assess situations, provide some additional value add. If all we ever do is focus on the idea of, "Automate something, make it faster." We really haven't fixed the system, and I think you'll continue to be disappointed. So that's why we came up with that north star, that's what you got to look at.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. And you break digital transformation into two waves, so tell us what those are and why you segment it that way.

Vele Galovski: Yeah, wave one is the old definition, and the old definition is very product focused. And I think it's an important stepping stone in the whole program. So when you think of wave one digital transformation, let's make it smart, let's capture the right things off of that piece of equipment. Let's make it so that we can collect the data, let's see if we can become predictive of what's going to happen, and can we prevent it? Can we take proactive steps? All of that is really important, but that's not the beginning and the end, it's very much the foundation that you're building off of. So we call that wave one. Important, lot of work, lot of investment, but it's only wave one.

Vele Galovski: Wave two, which is going to be the big deal, is how do we take that wave one capability, and turn it into a focus on improving the customer's business outcome? And so you got to move further and further away from your product, which is really hard for a lot of equipment manufacturers because that's all we ever focused on is the product. And now we're saying, "No, go beyond the product. How do you interact in the customer's workflow? How do you participate in the ecosystem? What skills, what knowledge do you have that can influence the ecosystem, and start to help them get more value out of your product and your company."

Vele Galovski: And get paid for it, we're not philanthropic organizations. We're nice people, but we don't do it because we're nice, we're doing it because we think it's the best way to make money.

Sarah Nicastro: Right, okay. That makes sense. Now, you have a book coming out around what you call digital hesitation. So I'm sure you don't want to give it all away because we want people to get the book, but give us an idea of what you mean by digital hesitation, and what purpose this book is going to serve.

Vele Galovski: Okay, well it comes out-

Sarah Nicastro: And apologies to everyone for my sniffles. I told Vele at the beginning I have a bit of a cold, so sorry if I'm sniffly on this episode.

Vele Galovski: No, not a problem. I'm glad we're able to continue on. So, the digital hesitation, it's really a play on digital transformation. It'll become really obvious on the cover, where we cross out the transformation piece and put the hesitation over it. Because everybody talks about digital transformation, they say they're doing it, but few are committing to it. They hesitate. So, the simplest view of digital hesitation is really a half-hearted attempt at transformation. So that's kind of what we're positing out there. And if you really think about it, if we were to tell you that 40% of company revenue was being wasted by not fully committing, would you do it differently? Would you fully commit?

Vele Galovski: And if you think about it, we've got all these organizations very well established, and because of our half-hearted attempts... We create customer success organizations to help customers use the product. We need support organizations, which 36% of every case that comes in to support is, "How to use the product that we just bought." We have field service organizations that have to go on site to figure out what's wrong with the product before we can fix it, just to get to level.

Vele Galovski: And if you were to look at it and say, "Man, I'm spending 40% of every dollar that I earn propping this stuff up," would you hesitate? Or would you say, "Man, maybe I got to look at this a little bit differently." And that's what the book is about, the book is calling these items out, and then going into every single part of that digital customer experience to look at what can we do differently. How do we change from go to market, to onboarding, value realization, all the way through to renewal and expansion. So it really looks across the whole thing.

Sarah Nicastro: Now, would you say that digital hesitation... What you see happening is more companies committing to wave one and not wave two, or hesitating altogether?

Vele Galovski: I think everybody dips their toes in to wave one. Everybody does it, but the lack of vision going forward hamstrings a lot of these companies. I don't know, tell me a company that doesn't have some type of sensor on their product, right? There used to be a lot of dumb pieces of equipment out there, dumb meaning it stands by itself and it does its thing. Everybody's got sensors, even a car. I use that example again, a car has more lines of code than a Dreamliner now. Everything's loaded up, so everybody's kind of engaging in it, but they do hesitate. They stop short because it's like, "Well, how big does this thing get. What do we do with it?" And that's what we want to do, is just expand the definition and the thinking to go where the customer is ultimately going to pull you.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Now, I know this is a loaded question, but if you look at what will it take to eliminate that hesitation, and to help companies see the wave two vision, and make more progress in converting digital transformation efforts into business model change and revenue growth... Because I think one issue I see though, is that people confuse the two. People think that just through digital transformation, they are changing their business model.

Sarah Nicastro: And the reality is it gives you the ability to do it, but it doesn't do it for you. And that's where I think people get stuck, because, like you said, they're, "Well wait, we connected all of this stuff. We have this data, why didn't it change the world?" And then it's like, "Oh, there's this whole other set of change that has to occur." So, what is it that's going to get more organizations to see the potential of going all-in on wave two?

Vele Galovski: I think, fundamentally its leaders have to lead, and you have to look at it. And it's hard, because if I've spent my entire career making it up to the C-Suite because I'm the best CapEx product seller, product development engineering manager out there, now all of a sudden I get here and you're telling me the rules have changed? Wait a minute here, I only got three years to go, I got five years to go. Whatever, I'm going to ride this one out.

Vele Galovski: So first of all, it does take leadership because this is a company-wide thing. I think another piece is you got to commit. You can go back to the Iliad, burn the boats. You can go back to Sun Tzu, knock down the bridge, force your folks to change and to make that happen. And so that's another way. And then I think, unfortunately, some places are just going to fail. You're going to have some big failures out there that may encourage other people to move.

Vele Galovski: So, some of those are things that have to happen. And what we try to do in the upcoming book, Digital Hesitation, is really to talk about some of these factors, and really just articulate it that says, "You got to lead, you got to burn the bridges and the boats." And don't be on the heap of history, "Congratulations, you got there, but are you going to be the one who drove him under, or are you going to be the one that saved the place?"

Sarah Nicastro: Right. I think the point you made saying, "This is a company-wide thing," that's a very important point, because what I see with the people I interview is unfortunately, there's a lot of organizations that are approaching this in a very siloed manner. It's the service function that is trying to drive this change, and it just doesn't work. It doesn't work, unless you're talking about acknowledgement of the overall identity of the business, the value proposition that the company's customers want, and a cohesive look at what it takes to get there.

Sarah Nicastro: And so I think that that's definitely one of the biggest challenges that I see play out time and time again, is there's pockets of really innovative thinking, and change-ready folks, but they're fighting against legacy that maybe doesn't see it at the top. And that has the change too.

Vele Galovski: Just a quick comment on that, I see one of my unofficial charters, at TSIA, is to help these field and support organizations be meaningful contributors at the corporate table. And to give them the data, and the confidence, and the backing to say, "This is what we're doing, and this is what you're asking me to do. And these are the things that have to come into play." So, without that, a lot of people rightfully struggle. We've talked about it, we've seen it in the past, this idea of people have talked about shift left for a dozen years. And so the reason I got on this particular unstated mission was a guy comes to me and says, "Okay, I've been tasked to eliminate 40% of my dispatches in the next year and a half."

Vele Galovski: Because the CFO did a spreadsheet exercise and says, "Wow, dispatching on site with a spare part is really expensive. I want to do that remotely." And I'm like, "Oh, okay, great." Well to shift left, I go, "What percent of your install base is actually connected, and giving you telemetry so that you can resolve it remotely?" 2%. I'm like, "Dude, you better update your resume, because you're not going to make that goal."

Vele Galovski: And that's sad because, I think a lot of field and support people really put their heart into it, and want to do the right thing. But it's a matter of, "Hey, if we're not connected, and we're not doing this the right way, this is not all on my shoulders." And that's why it's important to get the whole picture out there.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Now that being said, what is the role of field service in all of this?

Vele Galovski: I've put it out there that says, sooner or later the industry is going to figure out that I need service revenue. Sooner or later. So, who are the people who know the customer better than anybody else in the company? Field service. They go on site, they've seen good implementations, they've seen bad implementations. They know who uses the product well, who doesn't, and what really works. So what I tell field service organizations, I said, "Get ready, because you know, this is going to happen."

Vele Galovski: There's going to be this balancing act of utilization versus the service levels, and what are you going to do when you're on site? Are you going to get in, get out, get to the next job? Or are you going to fix the problem, but then start adding value when you're in there? These are capabilities that need to get implemented right away. Make it okay for people to do that adoption and expansion when on site, give them the skill sets that are not only technical, but are looking at the process, because we want to influence the business outcome. Give them some of those skills, teach them what it means to uncover leads, to build relationships.

Vele Galovski: All those things have to happen, expanding beyond that core charter of fix stuff. And when you start to build those capabilities into that charter, people are going to say, "Oh my God, this is what we have to do. Who can help me?" And they're going to look around and the only person that's going to know what's happened is that field service person. That manager or that leader, and they're going to say, "I'm the pedal to put to the floor, I got that."

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Now, can you give folks sort of a high level overview of your Field Service Maturity Model?

Vele Galovski: Yeah, sure. One of the recognitions that we all have in field service, we don't have infinite resources. We can't focus on everything all the time, so what we do at TSIA, we help them focus their scarce resources with our benchmarking process. And that benchmarking process is looking at not only your performance, we put that on the Y axis, and we say, "How are you objectively performing against the industry?" And then and we also along the X axis, look at what's your adherence to industry best practices? Just like any good consulting organization, you got to have a two-by-two.

Vele Galovski: So as an example, if I have high performance and I'm in the upper-left hand quadrant, but low adoption of best practices, this means I'm getting good results, but it's probably going to be pretty hard to scale. And maybe we're getting it just out of pure effort coming out of those engineers, and it's going to be hard to do that. So our recommendations is we look at the performance that you want to maintain, and we start to show, "Hey, these are the industry best practices that will maintain that performance, and help you improve at scale." So, that's a theoretical discussion. As an example, in that upper left-hand quadrant, those are the people that have great customer satisfaction. People are doing a wonderful job, in spite of poor product performance, in spite of not knowing what's happening until you get out there. So those companies in that upper left-hand quadrant, don't regular have formal input into the product team on serviceability.

Vele Galovski: Those percentages are so much lower. So they're doing well, but they're not getting any help. The companies that move over into that upper right-hand quadrant, meaning they're adopting certain practices and still maintaining those results and can scale, those are the companies that, as an example, have formal input to the product team on serviceability. What were the causes of all these break fixed incidents? How can we do reliability? What should we be monitoring? Here are things that work well, if we can incorporate these data streams into our product, we can do X, Y, and Z. So that's what we look at when we do that type of assessment, and say, "Okay, good performance. You can scale doing these things because you're not doing them today."

Sarah Nicastro: Right. Which really is representative of service being better incorporated into the overall business strategy, business decision making, business operations. And so it's similarly representative of the need to ensure you're not having that function operating in a silo, right? So that's interesting. So-

Vele Galovski: I got a bunch of these little things, Sarah, as you know. But I talked about being a contributing member on the corporate table. And someone told me this a long time ago, and I never forgot it. And they said, "You have to be at the corporate table. Field service has to be at the corporate table because, if you're not at the table, you're on the menu."

Vele Galovski: I think you can fit it in with exactly what you just said, that if you're not given this feedback, if you're not part of this whole enterprise approach, guess who's going to get blamed for poor uptime? Guess who's going to get blamed for bad satisfaction? Guess who's going to get blamed for that? You're on the menu, and it doesn't work that way. We all have to work on this together, and that's a great example of what I mean by being a contributing member at the corporate table.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, that makes sense. Now, over the next 12 to 18 months, what are some of the of biggest... I don't know, I don't really love predictions. But what are some of the most interesting things you think we're going to see in field service over the next 12 or 18 months?

Vele Galovski: I think that what you're going to see, and I use like Enterprise IT to be a predictor of future because they've been dealing with this for about six to eight years. And now a lot of the manufacturers and everybody else are starting to deal with this today. And so what's going to start to happen, I believe, are time and material engagements are going to hit the road. It's too hard to do cost plus, it's too hard to scope out how many people you need, it's too hard to predict what's going to happen with the revenue, and so on. So I see time and materials, which have essentially disappeared from enterprise tech, also going away from industrial equipment, healthcare, even though a lot of people use it today.

Vele Galovski: That's going to shift from time and material contracts to annual recurring revenue contracts, things like here's a support and maintenance contract where I'm going to guarantee resolution time. Not response time, but resolution time, that's another trend that's going to start to change. And then customers, we see hints at this today, they're going to start putting clawbacks into contracts. It's like, "Wait a minute, you promised me this, and if you don't hit that level, we're going to start the clawback."

Vele Galovski: We're just going to put more pressure on the enterprise to get to connected, to get really good at what they're doing. So over the next 18 months I see less time and material. Oh, by the way, who wants to play in that space, anyways? Because anybody with a tool pouch plays in that space, and it's hard to maintain the margins people want. So I see time and material going away, I see more annual recurring revenue type contracts coming in. I see focus on resolution time, instead of response time, i.e. closer to business outcomes. And, I think that there's going to be more and more penalty clauses and clawbacks for lack of performance there. So if you think of that, it's a lot of pressure, right?

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, yes it is. And that's what makes our jobs interesting. So, that's-

Vele Galovski: And I thank you for bringing it up to everybody. 

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, it is a lot of pressure, but like we said at the beginning it's not really optional anymore. All right, so, last thing is I want to have you tell folks you have a live event happening in May. So tell our listeners where it is, when it is, how they can find more information so that they can check that out.

Vele Galovski: Everything you want to know is at TSIA.com. You can look at the conference tab there, everything is there. It's going to be in Orlando, May 16th through the 18th. It's going to be an in-person and hybrid event, we did our first in-person event in October in over two years, and we did that in Las Vegas. That was also hybrid, so we felt that this is a good model. COVID's changed everything, so we've adapted. And we're going to be doing that as well here in May. I referenced Frederic Godemel from Schneider Electric, he's on the main stage for us this year. Talking about that digital transformation, and what they need to do, or what they have done within a traditional equipment manufacturer. Well over a hundred years old, what have they done to transform?

Vele Galovski: So, that's going to be a great talk. And then we're going to have what we call pathways, seven pathways that you can register for and attend things on, like digital customer experience. How do you accelerate annual recurring revenue? How do you navigate the transformation? So, it's a great event, we're expecting over 1,000 people in-person at Marriott World Center in Orlando. So we're excited about the event. I'm excited because it's on the East Coast, and I'm excited because I love Disney world.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, there you go. That sounds good. So everyone that isn't already engaged with TSIA's content, you can find all of that, like Vele said at TSIA.com. You can check out the State of Field Services Report, you can find blogs that Vele and his team write, different research that you can take a look through, and information about the event in Orlando in May. So, that's excellent. Well Vele thank you for coming, and spending some time with me today. I appreciate it.

Vele Galovski: Yeah, thanks for having me, Sarah. And I hope you feel better, I couldn't tell.

Sarah Nicastro: Well, good. It's nothing major, I wanted people to know that if they heard a lot of sniffles, it was just my little cold, so all as well. All right, so thank you again. I appreciate you being here with me.

Vele Galovski: Thanks, Sarah. Take care.

Sarah Nicastro: You can find more by visiting us at futureoffieldservice.com. You can also find us on LinkedIn, as well as Twitter @TheFutureOfFS. The Future of Field Service Podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at IFS.com. As always, thank you for listening.

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Sarah welcomes General Brent Baker, a retired two-star general with US Air Force who recently published a book on leadership with a collection of personal experiences over his 37-year USAF career who also currently leads PTC’s Federal, Aerospace and Defense business unit.

Sarah Nicastro: Welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today, we're going to be taking a look at leadership through the lens of a Two-Star General. I'm excited to welcome to the podcast today, General Brent Baker, who is a retired Two-Star General with the U.S Air Force. He recently published a book on leadership with a collection of personal experiences over his 37 year United States Air Force career. And he also currently leads PTC’s Federal Aerospace and Defense business unit. General Baker, welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast.

Brent Baker: Thank you, Sarah. It's really my pleasure to be here. It's exciting.

Sarah Nicastro: Yes, I'm excited to have you. Okay. So I got approval on this beforehand and I'm going to switch to calling you Brent. So I just want to throw that out there for the listeners that I okayed that.

Brent Baker: Perfect.

Sarah Nicastro: So, Brent, tell us a little bit more about your journey and how that led itself to this new book.

Brent Baker: Sure. Well, I really come from a military family. My father served, I had uncles who served, so I always kind of thought I would end up joining the military and serving my country and I did. So right after high school, I joined United States Air Force. I spent six years as an enlisted member. Then I went to officer training school and became an officer and spent 31 years really doing all things logistics for the Air Force. And I was very blessed and fortunate.

Brent Baker: I was promoted along the way and actually made the rank of Major General. So when you're an enlisted member and become an officer that term is called a mustang, and it's fairly rare to have a mustang officer. And then for those that to make general officer, I think it's even rarer. I don't know that exact percentage, but it's a very small percentage. So I was just really blessed to have an amazing Air Force career. I was a seven-time and commander of different organizations from small units to very large units. I spent a lot of time throughout the country, overseas. Moved 27 times in 37 years. So we did a lot of moving, but it was really a wonderful Air Force career. And then I just transitioned into the private sector as you mentioned, working for PTC, doing really all kinds of the latest technology and software.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. So I guess before we even get into the questions that I had planned, how long ago was that transition into the public sector?

Brent Baker: So I've been, I transitioned out of the Air Force little, it's almost seven years. It'll be seven years this summer.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. So how would you describe the biggest differences in leadership between the military and the public sector?

Brent Baker: Well, that's actually a wonderful question because before you leave the service, I don't think it's just the Air Force, you hear this in different services. You kind of hear all these horror stories. "Oh, it's dog eat dog in the private sector." And the only thing that matters is making the almighty dollar. But I will tell you, that has not been my experience. I've actually worked, I just did some consulting for a company that I worked with PTC, and it's been in a good way, very surprising how ethical these companies are and how much teamwork matters. And so my transition has actually been fairly easy because I feel like the companies that I've worked for, they're very similar to the Air Force when you talk about being honest, and doing what's right, and the importance of teamwork. So it's been about six years or so, but it really doesn't feel that much different to me to be quite honest.

Sarah Nicastro: You know, it's so funny how of course we all have our preconceived notions. Anyone that says they don't is lying. And it's, that wasn't the answer I was expecting. And the reason is because, now don't get me wrong, of course I would expect that things like integrity and honesty would be a part of the military experience. But to be quite honest, when you said that the impression in the military is that the private sector is more dog eat dog, I would think the opposite. Like I would think that the military experience is very harsh and hard and that's probably because of the perception that's created around a lot of it, but I think that's really interesting. That just wasn't the answer I was expecting.

Sarah Nicastro: So I think we'll talk about that a little bit more as we go, because we're going to talk a little bit about some of the experiences you had with leaders in the military and some of the experiences you had as a leader. And then we can also talk about what that's looked like since you've been on the outside. So when you think about your journey and you think of examples of leaders who had a very positive impact on you, what was it about their leadership styles, or traits, or tactics that left such a lasting impression?

Brent Baker: Well, I think one key characteristic is, I was really always drawn to those folks that I feel like lead by example. They don't just say a bunch of words, "Hey, here's some expectations" and they go do the opposite. I think I was really kind of drawn the leaders that would give you that speech, if you will, here's what we're going to do that then did it themselves. I've had a variety of leaders, commanders, and bosses throughout my years. And they're all very, they're all different, really is night and day. But I think that's one really, attribute, I would say is like this leading by example. A great example is, or another great attribute I look for, I think was kind of drawn to, is those folks that really took care of their people. A lot of leaders that say, "Oh yeah I care about my people. I want to take care of them." And then they don't necessarily do that.

Brent Baker: The leaders that I really tried to emulate, if you will, is the ones that really worked hard to take care of their people. I was very fortunate. I had some amazing bosses throughout my career that really helped me to get to where I ended up. That would've never happened without them, like putting me in for special awards or, recognize me with a decoration, or things like that. And that just showed me that's what I needed to do for my people. And so those are just really a couple examples of things I just noticed. Really in great leaders. And that's either in the Air Force or in the private sector side.

Sarah Nicastro: And I think what you're describing and even going back to the first question I asked just about your journey, you said a couple of times how fortunate you've been. And I think it's really important when someone can reflect on what they've achieved and recognize that it isn't a solitary effort. Okay. So the reality is, there are a lot of people that work hard, that for a variety of reasons, don't achieve certain goals, or objectives, or statuses, or what have you. And I think it's important to acknowledge that. I also think it's indicative of the type of character that makes for a strong leader, because there's this recognition that you can't do it alone. Right? And so when you talk about the attribute of the leaders you most admired, took care of their people, I think it's because really good leaders recognize that they really aren't that great on their own.

Sarah Nicastro: They are as strong as the sum of their parts, right? And so the more they recognize, and value, and nurture their teams, the better they become. It's the ones who are kind of self-centered and power hungry, who you feel bad when you work for them because you hear them talk about an accomplishment and they never mention the 20 people that helped them achieve that accomplishment. I mean, those are the opposite of what you're referring to. And I'm not exactly sure what adjectives you would use to describe those differences, but I do absolutely agree with you that one of the strongest leadership traits of today is this idea of taking the focus off of you and sharing that with the people that are on your team. So.

Brent Baker: Sarah, I agree a hundred percent. A matter of fact, one of the key, I would say one of the lines that kind of flows throughout my book is this idea of servant leadership. Some folks think you're the leader, you're on top. Everybody's serving you. And really the view is really kind of the opposite. Yes, you are the leader, but you're responsible for all these people. And part of your success is making sure they're successful. And so it's kind of taking that old mentality of, I'm in charge, I'm the leader, I'm due everything. Kind of switching that around and say, you're very fortunate, you're very blessed to be the leader. How are you taking care of the mission? How are you taking care of the people? It's just a different mindset. And that's one of the themes that I've tried to weave throughout my book. And the other one is, I think we're all leaders. I tell folks all the time, everybody has a leadership role. You may not consider yourself a leader, but you're leading someone whether it's a church, or a sports program, or your family. And so I tried to really kind of weave that theme in there as well. It's like, everyone's a leader and it's very important that you understand that.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative) You know, going back to the servant leadership thing, I think that's a really good point, but I would say, here's a comment. I want to see if you agree with this. I think servant leadership is important. I think there are a growing percentage of leaders who kind of embrace that mentality because they genuinely want to have a positive impact on people's lives. Okay. But let's take altruism out of the equation. Okay. And let's just look at it in terms of profit and loss, hitting goals, achieving objectives. There's also a reality that anything but servant leadership, anything, but building up teams is a recipe for failure today. And I think that's the nature of the digital age. I mean, the fact that business is not today what it was 20 or 30 years ago. The pace of change is so fast. The amount of data and volume of decision making and the diversity and skill sets that a company needs to be successful.

Sarah Nicastro: The idea of being like the one at the top, it's an impossible goal to have anymore. Which is why the leaders that are most successful are the ones who can curate the best team of talent and then empower that talent to do what it is they're good at. And I think the acknowledgement of that is kind of looking at the role servant leadership can play in helping your organization be successful. That's not to say, don't do it for the right reason. Do you know what I mean? Or do it because it's the right thing to do. But I'm just saying that, this old mentality of dog eat dog and do whatever it takes, at all costs, drive hard, treat people like lines on a spreadsheet type of thing, right. It just is not conducive to thriving in today's ecosystem. So I think there's something to be said too about acknowledging the fact that this idea of servant leadership is really a tool to help you grow your bottom line at the end of the day.

Brent Baker: No, I agree. I think you're talking a little bit about situational leadership as well. I think you really understand those folks that you read. There are times when you have to be very directive. Like if you're in a major crisis, I mean obviously, you have to be very directive in nature, but for the most part, I think you're exactly right. Folks have changed throughout time. Technology has changed. People do a lot more today than they've ever had to do. And I think a successful leader is one that's really understands that and is really a good team builder, that's able to be really good and effective teams. I think you'll get a lot more out of your team if you will, when you operate and lead that way.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Okay. So I asked you about the traits of the leaders that stand out in your mind. When you think about your own leadership, what characteristics or moments are you most proud of?

Brent Baker: Well, some of the moments I'm really proud of is, I talk a little bit about leading by example. I would say that's probably my strategy for leadership. I didn't really ask anyone to do anything that I hadn't done or wasn't doing at the time. Examples, Air Force implemented a new physical training program, if you will. And I was one of the first people to go out, really embrace it, and lead teams, and make sure that people weren't struggling, were able to pass the new PT test. So I've always tried to do that in everything I've done. The other thing I've really worked hard on is communication. And that's another key part I've got in my book about the importance of communication, because I think it's one of the toughest things we do. I mean, we've all played that telephone game where you start a conversation at one end of the room and by the other end, the message has completely changed.

Brent Baker: And I really worked hard on to communicate my message and the proper message. And sometimes I had very large organizations and so I had to be very creative how I did that. And then the other one I would just say is kind of the power of being positive. Which I really learned from my wife. She's a very positive person and I wasn't always positive in my life. And I started kind of, again, looking at her leadership style and I quickly realize that it's really, very powerful, this powerful of being positive. And so I started using that in my leadership style as well. So those are some of the things I'm really proud of. That I was able to be the leader and I think most people really enjoyed working with me. And so those are maybe two or three of the really big ones.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. Now you said you feel like everyone needs to recognize that they're a leader in some way. Okay. However, that doesn't necessarily mean everyone's a good leader. Right?

Brent Baker: Right.

Sarah Nicastro: So if you think about good leaders, like really good, great leaders, do you feel like those leaders are born or made?

Brent Baker: I've really thought a lot about that. And I even addressed that in my book and I really think it's a combination. I do believe there are some people that are just born with natural leadership traits that may, or conducive to leadership. But having said that, even if you don't have those inherit or born skills, I personally believe you can still be a great leader. And so, to me, it's a combination of both these, kind of what you're born with and then also being a great student of leadership. And that's another reason I really felt compelled to take the time to write this book because one thing I tried to do throughout my life and career, is really look for those good and bad leadership examples and to really learn from those. And then I also did a lot of reading. If I could find a leadership book, I would read it.

Brent Baker: And I really tried to make myself a student of leadership throughout my life and my career. And I would also say, even if you're born with those traits that make you a great leader, as we've already discussed, leadership is very situational. Times change. Technology changes. And so to me, if you're going to continue to hone your skill, you got to constantly be a student of that skill, whatever that is. In this case, we're talking leadership. That's why I think it's so important to constantly read and to be a lifelong student of leadership.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I think that's a really good point. And I would say, the part that people are born with probably is more related to personality. Right. Because I mean, you're not necessarily born with any skills. I mean, you learn those. Right. And from experience. Right. But I think there are people that have certain personality characteristics that maybe make them either, A, more inclined to lead well, and then B, more magnetic where people are drawn to them. Right. And so, but what's interesting, we had an author on the podcast a few months ago, Jack Wiley. And he gave me a statistic from his research. I want to say it was around 70%. I might be off by a percentage point, but it's 70% of leaders have not had any formal training. And so it's interesting because there was a book written in, I think it was 1969, The Peter Principle, I don't know if you're familiar with it.

Brent Baker: Yes.

Sarah Nicastro: But essentially, the Peter principle is for those that aren't this idea that leaders are advanced and promoted to their level of incompetence. Meaning, you do such a good job in a role that you get promoted until at some point you're promoted into a role you're not competent to do. Right. And so I think this point that you're making about being a student of leadership is so very, very important because I think it is a bit different then kind of the older thinking of, "Okay, well, I've achieved this level and now I've earned it or I'm worthy of it, and now I just maintain it." Right. I don't think that that's the way to do it. And I think this idea of being aware that people change, times change, technology change, as you said, and making sure that you're investing in yourself as a leader is super, super important.

Brent Baker: It's a wonderful point. And I'm familiar with the Peter principle. I've heard it throughout my career. And I was always one of those folks where I never wanted to be an example of the Peter principle, if you will. And so to me, that student to leadership is kind of how I summarized that. I've got another part in the book where I talk about learn, grow, move. Because I think another way to make sure that doesn't happen or help prevent it is like once you become skilled in an area and you've really learned it, it's time to move. Some people are really comfortable in a job and they do it for years. But then when you do get promoted, you have to have a new skill set. So I see that as a student of leadership is, once you've kind of learned or mastered an area as best you can, you can't always control that, but the idea is, as soon as you can go do something new, that's the way to do it.

Brent Baker: And just a quick example. So, when I become the Vice Commander of Air Force Materiel Command, that was probably my largest command, if you will. Thousands of people, hundreds of millions, actually, I think billions of dollars. And I found myself pleasantly surprised that I was actually well prepared for that. I think it's because I had been a commander, I'd moved so many times, I'd done several different bases that was inside that command. And so my point is, I think being a student of leadership, that's the mentality that you have to have, that you've always learned, grow, moved. You got to learn more, you got to understand how people think and operate today. And that'll help hopefully make you avoid the Peter principle where you're always ready to lead.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative) Yeah. So we talked about leading by example. We talked about treating people well. We talked about communication. Is there anything else that comes to mind when you think about leadership traits that are timeless?

Brent Baker: I think, and again, I want to just emphasize, that's really what I try to do in the book is really write something I think are timeless. I even put a small thing in there about email management. I'm not sure that's timeless. We'll probably have email forever, I guess. But the point is, I really tried to write this where these leadership examples and tips that I provide, I think are timeless and I really wanted to make them reflective and not prescriptive. And what I mean by that is, I want people to be able say like, "Well, what is my leadership style? How do I communicate? Am I positive person? Am I negative?" But just some simple things in here about the importance of being a mentor. I don't think that will change. I mean, people are always looking to those they work with and work for. How can they learn from it?

Brent Baker: I think being a mentor is really important. And one point I make in this book is, try to mentor those with a vision. They kind of know what they want to do in life. I was very big on that. Again, I think we talked about taking care of your folks. I don't think that changes. Throughout the years, I think that's going to be a very important principle. Expectations. One chapter I have in there is about setting expectations upfront. Again, I don't think that'll change. I think that's very important. So people understand who you are.

Brent Baker: One thing I always did when I took over unit, I would set expectations upfront. I would tell them about my leadership style because I wanted them to understand really who I was upfront. One thing I would say that I think has changed as a result of technology and I don't think it really should, but as a leader, I think you have to make tough decisions. And I think that's one maybe skill set as in leadership we've lost today. Because it's easy with technology just to push, just keep pushing the idea of the decision up to the next level because it's so easy today with advancement of technology. But to me, a leader has to make the tough calls, has to make the tough decisions. I think that's part of being a leader.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative) Okay. Now, if you think about where you started and some of the leadership experiences you had early on, and then what all of this looks like today, are there characteristics or behaviors or tactics that are, I guess newer, or maybe weren't necessary at one point that had become more so today. Like is there anything different then the traits you consider timeless, that you think are important for folks to be thinking about today?

Brent Baker: Well, I think one that's, maybe a couple comes in my mind. One, is the power of technology. We've kind of discussed that, that's kind of been woven throughout our discussion, but technology and I work with technology today, I'm just constantly surprised at how fast technology is changing. With the invention, like the internet of things, augmented reality, virtual reality, remote service. I mean, we're so connected with phones, and iPads, and computers. To me, you can never get away from this technology. So I think that's one that as leaders, we really figure out. We have to figure out how to use it, to embrace it, and to make it work for us in a positive manner. A great example, for years the Air Force kind of tried to stay away from things like Facebook, and Twitter, and things like that.

Brent Baker: And looking back, that was probably a wrong decision because to me, that's what folks use today. So we need to figure out how to embrace it. So my point is, I think we got to figure out how to really embrace technology. And the other thing too, I think we have to look at the folks that we lead. How, what they respond to. My early generation, somebody they just told us "Hey, go out and do something." We just did it. They told us to do it. But you know, the young folks don't operate like that today. They want to understand why they're doing it, how it fits the mission, how it impacts the environment. I mean, I think they're bigger thinkers. And to me, you have to really be able to understand that if you want an effective leader.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's more power in understanding it than there is ignoring it or hoping it'll change. Do you know what I mean? Like its, avoidance is not necessarily a good strategy. Okay. So you talked about being a student of leadership and continuing to learn and to grow. And I think that's super important, but I think that requires two parts in my mind. One is inspiration. Right. So, and the other is information. But I think with one, or if you only focus on one or the other, you're lacking something. Right. Because I think to your point, this idea of being positive. Right. And that can look different for different people. It's not about being fake or being a cheerleader, but it's about recognizing the fact that people look up to you and what tone are you setting type of thing.

Sarah Nicastro: I think particularly if you look at, I'm sure some hard circumstances you faced in the Air Force and you look at the fact that we've been in the midst of a pandemic for the last couple of years, there are times where that's not easy to do. And so that's where I think inspiration comes in. And then information in the sense of really learning those new skills, or methodologies, philosophies, the things that are going to help keep you up to speed. So how have you tackled this? What sources of inspiration or information have you found most helpful over the course of your career?

Brent Baker: Well, I think my inspiration really comes from a lot of different areas. And what I mean by that is, I always try to look for really good leadership and emulate that. So that's been the inspiration for me. And I mentioned it earlier, I think you can find that in all walks of life, all different genres. I think you can look for that. And that's one thing that's really inspired me, and I've tried to do the same thing. I've tried to encourage people to really look around for those amazing leaders, amazing leadership models, how did those folks inspire you. Or sometimes we learn more, I hate to say this, but from the negative examples, maybe there was somebody that did not inspire you, or made you feel bad about yourself, or maybe they were a toxic leader, things like that.

Brent Baker: I think you can learn a lot from that. And that can inspire you not to be like that. And the other thing, I've always encouraged folks to learn as much as they can. Read a variety of books. History. Read leadership books. Read whatever interests you, but really try to, even if you're not going to school, really try to expand your knowledge-base. Because, and there's one point I'm make in the book, as you become a really, a very senior leader, you have less time to be inspired, to read, to do all those things. You got to do that to me, as you're up and coming. And I use a diagram of an hourglass, because once you kind of go through the hourglass, that time you had to learn, and grow, and be inspired, now you're the senior leader. You don't have that time. I think there are folks that wait, maybe very late in life to try to learn some of this and it's really too late.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. So any other words of wisdom for people related to leadership?

Brent Baker: Well, we talked a little bit about my book. I hope folks will pick it up. And I really want to tell you my motivation for writing the book was, I've been a student of leadership throughout my life and careers, I mentioned earlier. And I wanted to get my thoughts down on paper and I hope people will pick it up and read it. I've got 50 leadership tips in there. I've got 25 different chapters. I think it's very easy to read. I try to use a lot of good examples, a few bad examples woven in to give... And again, I wrote to be reflective. Not necessarily prescriptive. But I would say if you're a student of leadership, even if it's not my book, just continue to reach out, to find things like that, to continue to reach, continue to grow. Don't be afraid to take chances. I think being a good leader, once in a while, you have to take some chances. It's not cut and perfectly dry. Sometimes you have to take chances. And I think to be a good leader, you have to do that as well.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Good. All right. So the book is called, Orders from the General. And where can folks find the book?

Brent Baker: Well, you can find it several places. So it's actually on my website, which is, hbrentbakersr.com. You can find it at the publisher, which is X Libras, X-L-I-B-R-I-S.com. And you can also find it on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. And so, yeah again, I'd love for people to go out. And I want you to know my motivation is not to make money. My real motivation is, I hope people pick it up, and inspired by it, pass it along to somebody else. Keep it in their leadership library, refer to it now and then, and that would just really make me thrilled. Because that again, that was my motivation for producing it.

Sarah Nicastro: All right. Okay. General Baker. Well, I appreciate that. Everyone go check out the book. Thank you very much for coming and talking with me today.

Brent Baker: My pleasure, Sarah. Thanks so much. Wonderful interview. Thank you.

Sarah Nicastro: Yes, you can find more by visiting us at, futureoffieldservice.com. You can also find us on LinkedIn, as well as Twitter at TheFutureOfFS. The Future of Field Service podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thank for listening.

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The Fine Art of Problem Solving

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The Fine Art of Problem Solving

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Sarah welcomes Amy Herman, a New York Times Best-Selling attorney, former Frick Collection Head of Education and art historian. The FBI, NYPD, Navy Seals, and Fortune 500 companies, among others, have hired her to help them solve problems. She has a TED talk titled “A Lesson in Looking,” and published a new book in December of 2021 titled, “Fixed: How to Perfect the Fine Art of Problem Solving,” and she shares an interesting perspective on a fresh way to approach problem solving.

Sarah Nicastro: Welcome to the future of field service podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today, we're going to be talking about the fine art of problem solving. We all have our fair share of challenges that we are up against. And we talk a lot on future of field service about how leaders need to work on harnessing their own creativity and look for different ways to achieve the innovation they need to in an industry that is changing so rapidly.

Sarah Nicastro: So I'm thrilled to welcome to the podcast today Amy Herman, who is a New York times best selling former Frick collection, head of education and art historian. She has worked with the FBI, the NYPD, Navy Seals, and a number of Fortune 500 companies, among others, who have hired her to help them solve their problems. She has a Ted talk titled a lesson in looking and published a new book in December of 2021, titled, Fixed: How to Perfect the Fine Art of Problem Solving. I think this is going to be a really fun conversation. I'm very excited. Amy, thank you for being here with me today.

Amy Herman: Thanks for having me, Sarah. I'm really excited to be on the show.

Sarah Nicastro: I have to admit, Amy and I spent a good portion of our time chatting before we even started recording because we just hit it off right away. So that was fun. All right. So I'm really intrigued about our chat today, but before we get into the meat of it, tell our listeners a little bit more about yourself, your journey, whatever you would like to share.

Amy Herman: Sure. So I am what I call a recovering attorney. I'm a recovering attorney because once you're a lawyer and you leave, you're always an attorney and I'm also an art historian. And I like to think that I combined the practical aspects of each of those disciplines, legal analysis and visual analysis when I created my company over 20 years ago.

Amy Herman: Basically what I do. My company's called the art of perception and I train leaders around the world to enhance their observation, perception, and communication skills by learning to analyze works of art. And I know the two don't sound connected. I know the connection could be tenuous at best, but it really seems to be working. And it's taken me a long time to figure out why, but with my new book coming out, I'm not only trying to help people enhance their observation and perception skills, but now I want to help them solve problems with the same method, because I think everything is broken right now. And while I'm a half glass full person, that is what I do. I use works of art as the vehicle to get people to rethink their problems and the skills they use at work and at home.

Sarah Nicastro: And the two really go well together. Right? I mean, the idea of evolving your perception and looking at things differently is sort of step one of being able to solve problems, right? Because oftentimes you need to change your perspective a bit to be able to come up with solutions. So I would think they go really well together.

Amy Herman: They do. They do. Two things come to mind as we were discussing beforehand offline. I think the best things really do happen at the exit ramp of your comfort zone. And while we are hesitant to go there ourselves, when someone else says, okay, come with me, I'm going to take you to the exit ramp of your comfort zone. You're going to see things you didn't see before. And then you go back, it's kind of empowering too. And I'm using art as a set of data. I'm using it as a new way to think about problems.

Amy Herman: And I have to confess, as you can imagine, I've spent a lot of time in museums, but I don't like to get hung up in labels and years and artists, blah, blah, blah. I did all that when I got a degree in art history. That's all fine. But I saw a wall label recently that really struck a chord and resonated and has been undergirding everything I've been doing ever since then. And what it said on the wall text is how we look at things is fundamental to what we see. How we look at things is fundamental to what we see. So I'm trying to help people change the way they look at things. And in the words of Wayne Dire, he says, when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. I love it. All right. So as I was researching you, there's a number of terms that come up that I want to sort of clarify for our listeners before we kind of talk about what the method is and sort of what people should be thinking about. So the method is an alternative for problem solving that can be considered different from what we refer to as default thinking. So can you explain what you mean by default thinking?

Amy Herman: Yes. Default thinking it's actually really a reserve of comfort for us. Been there done that. You know, I've seen this problem before. This is how I can solve it. And default thinking is what we rely on. You know, example. I say this as a mother. Okay, kid throws up eight o'clock in the morning. You know what to do. You clean it up, see if he feels okay, you know check the symptoms and you know, he is not going to go to school, so you put all these things in place.

Amy Herman: At work, somebody on your team, a key person on your team, quits unexpectedly. Okay, I've had this happen before. Let me think about what to do. How could I put the pieces in place. So we can do it personally and professionally. Default thinking is been there, done that. I'm seasoned.

Amy Herman: What I want to do is change the default thinking and say, maybe there's a better way to do this. Yes. This worked for me in the past, but maybe there's a better, more effective and more sustainable way to do this that I haven't thought of before. So I want to give people a template just to move a little bit away from that default thinking, not abandon it completely. We know what works for us.

Amy Herman: Let me try something different this time to see if it works. And you know what, sometimes it doesn't, and it's an epic fail, but sometimes you fail forward. It doesn't work out, but you say, you know what, I tried it because I learned something. And sometimes you go back to your default thinking, but I want to give people another avenue because of all the problems we're facing right now, some of them are just intractable. Some of them are just such new dilemmas that I want to give people a new way to think.

Sarah Nicastro: Now that's what I was thinking when you were describing some of those examples that-

Amy Herman: You like the vomit one.

Sarah Nicastro: So no, I get it. Yeah. Would you say that there are problems for which default thinking works, but then problems for which we need to learn how to move past that default thinking?

Amy Herman: Okay. I'll give you an example. I was just writing up a proposal yesterday. So it's fresh of mind. There's an artist named Georgio Morandi, and he's an Italian artist and he never left Bologna. Or maybe he left once. He worked in Bologna and he worked in a studio and he painted the same subjects his entire life. Cups, vases, plates, bowls. And he rearranged them myriad times, painting after painting after painting. And some people rolled their eyes and said F Morandi. So boring cups and vases. But other people think he's brilliant. It's quietly subversive.

Amy Herman: He looked at spatial. He looked at appearance. He looked at light. He looked at shadow. He looked at weight and he thought about all the moving pieces and all the different ways that he could arrange these pieces. And that's what our lives are. Let's face it. We live our lives. We get up in the morning. We go to sleep at night and we have a certain set of tasks, but let's shift it. Let's move them around. Let's do things A, to make it more interesting. And B, hopefully to do things better.

Amy Herman: I'm not asking people to turn their lives upside down. Let's all drop everything and run to a museum. But let's look at art as a way of thinking about things differently. We all have to from point A to point B every day, but let's think about what's on that journey. What's at point C, what's at point D, and what are other things we can look at to enhance our lives, but also to be more engaged and get more out of it.

Amy Herman: That's how I'm using art as sort of that analogy like Morandi's paintings. I can show 20 of them. No two are the same. They're different colors. They're different lights. There are different times of day and it gets you to think, oh, maybe I don't have to do the same thing all the time. That's what I mean about default thinking and using the pieces that work, but thinking about what doesn't work and to deviate from that just a little bit.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. And I would say, just thinking about how this relates to our audience, right? Sometimes it's the minutia that is really where the problems get stuck, right? So you mentioned the fact that some people could look at his paintings and say, oh, you know, they're all-

Amy Herman: Same old, same old.

Sarah Nicastro: Olds. But you're saying like, there's a lot of movement in the details. And to me, that's, very similar to how problem solving would work for our audience, because yes, we're in a period of massive innovation and market pressures and demands, et cetera.

Amy Herman: Yep.

Sarah Nicastro: And so sure. Sometimes you're going to paint a whole new painting, right. With a whole new set of inspiration. But a lot of times it's looking for those details and looking at it that way. So-

Amy Herman: Absolutely. But there's something I want to throw in there when it comes to problem solving. This is one of the biggest takeaways of my book, fixed about problem solving. And I say this to people like you, and to me. We're all juggling a lot. Right. We have demanding careers. We have really interesting careers. We've got families, we've got a balance. Don't let perfection be the enemy of good.

Amy Herman: Sometimes good is just good enough. Sometimes you have to solve a problem and you need to put all the pieces in place because you got to get out the door or you can't let everything fall apart. So I don't think we need to strive for perfection every day. I don't. And you know what? That's hard. One because you think you have to be perfect. Think you have to fix everything you don't. So one of my biggest takeaways is don't let perfection be the enemy of the good. We don't have to be perfect all the time.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. That's a good point. All right. So we talked about default thinking. Tell us about your approach and how it provides a more innovative way to problem solve, how it gets people out of that default mode.

Amy Herman: Well, I'll give you the example of having two people stand in front of a painting. Let's just say I work with police officers. So I have two cops standing in front of a painting and I say, okay, take 15 seconds. Take a look at this painting. And 15 seconds is a long time when you're just looking. And then I say, okay, each of you tell me and tell the group here, what do you see? And it's not threatening because you're just telling people what you see. You're not telling me who Van Gogh is. You're not telling me what period this is. What do you see in the painting? And what is remarkable is that the two people will come up with vastly different narratives of what they're looking at. And it's almost self-evident to them that if this is happening in a museum in front of two paintings, what's happening at the crime scene?

Amy Herman: What's happening in the operating room? What's happening in the boardroom? And that it gives us an insight into problem solving that not only do we come up with different solutions, we have different ways of seeing the problem. So let's start at the bottom line, articulate what we see the problem is before we think of what the solution is and art gives us a vehicle that's not threatening. I'm going to use the F word. It's really fun. It's actually fun to look at art together and talk about what we see and gives us this model to say, whoa, whoa, whoa. Before we all dive in to solve the problem, can we just go around the table and each articulate what we see the problem as really being.

Sarah Nicastro: I love this. So I have a podcast I recorded not too long ago with a gentleman who leads the digital buildings business at Schneider electric. And we were talking about what he feels are the kind of traits of modern leadership. So how over his career he's worked to evolve his thoughts, beliefs, approaches to, continue to improve. And one of the points that he brought up is the idea of there isn't enough root cause analysis.

Sarah Nicastro: And it's making me think of what you're saying, which is people jump to solution before ensuring that everyone is solving the same problem, right. Or that the same perception of the problem. And so his point is, he didn't obviously give it in an art context, but his point is without proper root cause analysis, you have people racing off to solve their own versions of what they saw in that painting. And then, without consensus that they're working towards a common objective, so.

Amy Herman: Yes, and you know what there, and that method, that idea happens a lot. That execution happens a lot, but you know, where you run into trouble and why this methodology hopefully can be useful is sometimes in the process of solving a problem, you run into a roadblock that was unforeseen. You run into a roadblock and you say, oh, I didn't think of that. Now what? I just went so fast. So two concepts come to mind.

Amy Herman: One, I learned from a colleague of mine in the FBI and he taught me the concept of festine lente. And it means to make haste slowly. And I know that sounds sort of like an oxymoron to make haste slowly. What does it mean? It means we all have to get to the finish line. We all have to complete the project. We all have to meet the deadline, but we need to do it mindfully and purposefully and in synchronicity with others to make sure we get it done the right the first time because nobody has time to start all over again.

Amy Herman: And another example that I want to give you that I think is just so interesting about dealing with problems along the way. So in the wilds of Colorado, this past October, I don't know if you saw in the news, they had film footage of a wild elk running around with a tire around its neck. And once you got over the absurdity of seeing this elk with a tire around its neck, it was actually really sad. What happened was the elk had coming contact with human pollution. When it was young, before it had antlers, it put its head through the tire and then the antlers grew and they couldn't get the tire off. So to make a long story short, the green wardens decided to taze the elk. It took them a while. It's a wild elk. They couldn't taze it.

Amy Herman: They finally got the elk out. And when they went to shave the tire off, they couldn't, it had a steel band in it and they couldn't get the tire off. Times a ticking. You know, when you taze an elk. I don't know how many Elks you've tased-

Sarah Nicastro: No, not a lot.

Amy Herman: But you don't know to keep it down. So what do they do? They can't shave the tire off. So you know what they did, they said, okay, here's a new problem. They shaved the antlers off, took the tire off the elk's neck. It woke up and it ran away. Now what's the takeaway for us that are not tazing, wild elk. The overarching problem here is wildlife and pollution. Are we going to solve that problem? No. Sometimes you need to solve the problem at hand and not worry about the big problem or the undergirding problem.

Amy Herman: Get the tire off your neck is what I tell my clients. Get the tire off. And sometimes yes. Is it a bandaid? Sure it is. But when you really don't have the resources to solve the big problem that caused this, the chances of another elk getting its head through a tire. Sure. It could happen. This particular elk and solve the problem and be able to handle unforeseen circumstances. Yeah. It's an interesting analogy. I know, but visually compelling when you see the footage of this elk running around Colorado.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. So tell us a little bit more, Amy, about ... I'm just curious, like when you work with organizations, we said FBI, NYPD, all the Fortune 500 companies, et cetera. What is the process like? So, what are you ... give us a glimpse into the work you do with them and what you're sort of asking them to do and how you're incorporating art into that process?

Amy Herman: Well, the first step that I take with any new client, it's always the same. A mentor of mine once said we have two ears and one mouth for a reason. Use them proportionally. And so I listen to what my client's concerns are. There's a reason they've come to me. You know, they didn't just say, oh, let's call that Amy Herman. Let's see what she's up to. No, they're coming to me for a reason. Something's broken. They need team building. Morale is really low. I mean, given where we are in the pandemic, it could be a thousand reasons that they're calling me. So I listen to what their issues are, what their concerns are, and what they hope to get out of a session like this. And then I turn around and I say, okay, this is what I can offer you.

Amy Herman: So when I bring the clients in, we've had to do this virtually because of our current circumstances. But normally I go to the client and we look at works of art together. And I explain to them how we're going to use art as data. This is not an art history class. Okay. You're not in for, oh, let's look at some Monet's together. It's not about that. It's looking at artist data, bringing them to the exit ramp of their comfort zone, making it highly participatory, highly engaging. There is never note taking in my sessions. Never. Because if you're busy taking notes, you're not participating.

Amy Herman: Then I put everyone on the spot. I make them do exercises with each other. They have to close their eyes. They have to describe works of art. They have to visualize. They have to articulate. And my training work breaks down into four A's. Every new client, every new product, every new vendor, any new situation, you practice four A'. one, you assess your situation, put parameters around it.

Amy Herman: Two, you analyze it. You say, what do I have? What do I retain? What do I get rid of? How do I prioritize my information? Then you articulate it. You tell your team. You send a memo, you send a text, you form a plan and then you act. You make a decision. So I show them how to assess, analyze, articulate, and act in the sparest of terms, because everyone's so busy. Nobody needs anything more. And how that can break things down into digestible pieces, whether it's communicating your strategic vision for the company or whether you're trying to solve a really big problem. So with this artist data, we work together in interactive exercises. We work together. We open our eyes and the time moves really quickly. And my goal is that every single person that participates in my program or reads my books, leaves thinking differently about one aspect of their work.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. So when you gave the example of the two police officers looking at a painting. We talked about the perception, right? So their perception, what they saw is different. And so the perception of a problem can be different. There's a couple other things I just want you to kind of define for our listeners. The second is visual intelligence. So what does that mean? And how does it relate to problem solving?

Amy Herman: Well, visual intelligence, spoiler alert is the title of my first book. And it's two things. Number one, visual intelligence is seeing what matters. We are barraged with information. We're on a 24 hour news cycle. We get. We have Instagram, we have social media, we have texts, we have emails. We have the old fashioned phones. Some people still call you and email. And our brains can't process all that.

Amy Herman: So visual intelligence is breaking down that information, distilling down to what you need. And that sounds like some kind of platitude. It's not. There are certain things I know that I can't look at social media before a certain time in the morning. I don't need that information, but for certain of my clients, that's how they communicate. So I know what I need to look at in a very focused way. The other definition I use for visual intelligence is seeing what other people don't.

Amy Herman: What does that mean? Seeing what other people don't. How do we look at our existing resources in a way that other people don't see them? And more importantly, how can we use them to solve problems? And the art example that I give you is a work of art by a woman named Rachel Whiteread. She made these beautiful, it's a hundred sculptures of beautiful wax and resin in a room. And when the sun shines in them, they're beautiful. You know what the sculptures are based on? The underside of a hundred different chairs. Who thinks about the underside of a chair? Nobody, but it's a negative space. And she thought, what a cool negative space. And she made a sculpture based on the bottoms of a hundred chairs. Do you need to know that? No. But she saw something that nobody else did. That's what visual intelligence is. It's seeing what other people don't and distilling all the information that we have to what you think you really need.

Sarah Nicastro: Now what about situational awareness.

Amy Herman: Situational awareness. It breaks down into two forms. There's short term situational awareness and there's long term situational awareness. Short term is knowing where you are at any particular moment. Right now, how did I get here? How did I get out? This is what we teach our children. How did you get here? What's the safest way to exit? What is the threat? What are you going to do right now being aware of your surroundings. Because as we know, when people put their earbuds in the rest of the world goes away. That really isn't the best thing to do in any situation. Long term situational awareness is a problem that you're aware of, but you haven't wrapped your head around it. You don't have a solution. You are aware of, but it doesn't have a solution. And it's sort of, it's looming. You say, okay, I know we have this problem.

Amy Herman: Like in the intelligence world, we know terrorism hasn't gone away just because there haven't been any terrorist incidents in the last two years, knock on wood. It hasn't gone away. So we still have to combat the issues that might not be at the forefront. So situational awareness is the here and the now, where am I? How did I get here? How did I get out? What can I do while I'm here? And long term is sort of a long range awareness of the issues and they're on your radar, but you may not be dealing with them all the time.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. Now those concepts, so perception, visual intelligence, situational awareness ... are these skills that anyone can hone or are there certain people who are more inclined or more effective at these things?

Amy Herman: Well, from an entrepreneurial perspective, I'm going to tell you that if the skills couldn't be honed, I'd be out of business. If everybody had to be born with this, I wouldn't have my company and I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing. I will say, that being said, there are some people that are better at this than others. There are some people that are aware, that are more aware than others. There's some people that can articulate their circumstances better than others.

Amy Herman: But I believe that we can leverage our own neuroplasticity to get our brain to think differently. And as one of my intelligence colleagues once said, and I steal this phrase from him all the time, because I think it's fabulous. He says neurons that fire together, wire together. And when I show you works of art and we look at works of art together, you are engaging your brain in a way that other stimuli don't do to your brain. So when you're using those neurons to fire, my hope is that when you encounter a problem, you'll be able to call upon them to wire to help you solve problem.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. All right. So our audience is business leaders, varying levels across varying industries that are all looking to solve problems related to innovation, digital transformation, differentiation of their offerings, company service and company growth, leadership. How does this formula apply to this type of persona?

Amy Herman: Well, let's start. Every one of those professions that you just named thrives on change. They're all working in a dynamic environment. None of those people can afford to be left behind. So I'm going to give you a quote from Henry James, which is probably the overarching takeaway from my whole methodology is try to be the person on whom nothing is lost.

Amy Herman: So what I'm doing is I'm using art as the data to reengage all of your senses, to sharpen your perception, to rethink innovation, to look at your existing resources differently, with the hope that you'll be able to solve problems, not just today's problems, but the problems down the road, because all those people in changing markets and leadership and startups, they are all poised. They're like elite, military squads. They know they're going to encounter trouble. They know they're going to encounter hostility and they're going to encounter change.

Amy Herman: So I want to give people a different template that they can fall back on. That's where we get back to that default thinking, that they can fall back on and say, you know what? There's a better way to solve this problem. And I'm using art as the data. And when I say that quote, try to be the person on whom nothing is lost. I want to realign your engagement. Think about not just what you see, but what did you hear? What your impressions and most importantly, how do you communicate all that to your stakeholders, your clients, and your colleagues.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. So let's say there's a listener hearing this talk and thinking, huh?

Amy Herman: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: Because I can visualize a few of those, just thinking about some of the types of folks that might hear this and just think.

Amy Herman: Sure.

Sarah Nicastro: So what's your reply to that reaction?

Amy Herman: My reply to that and believe it or not, I thrive on skepticism. I love when I have a skeptic saying, are you kidding me? You know, this is a room of MBAs. This is a room of CEOs. You're going to tell me that this art historian is going to talk to us. And instead of thinking about art substantively, I'm not telling you to drop everything and go to a museum. I'm telling you that, how you're doing your work. And however, you're solving your problems to keep in mind that yeah, things might be hiding in plain sight. Yes. There may be a more effective way to do this. And yes, I have the resources to be better at this. And so by simply reading my book and rethinking your work and your world. Nothing I'm doing Sarah, as you see is rocket science. You know, I'm not asking people to turn their worlds upside down.

Amy Herman: I'm saying, take your model as you know, it. Let's shift to the left, shift to the right. Let's clean the lenses that we're looking at. Let's change our shoes. Let's look at other perspectives. And I can almost guarantee when you step out of yourself, because one of my favorite lines with my son and with my clients is it's not all about you. It never is. It may be your business and your company and your team, but decisions are never all about you. Step out of that. Look at it differently. Use your visual intelligence. And I can almost guarantee you'll come away with a different perspective. That's all I'm asking for. Different perspectives and you choose how to apply it. It's not radical as it might sound.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I also think, my thought is the people that are the biggest skeptics are the ones that are the most stuck in their own comfort zones. Right?

Amy Herman: You bet.

Sarah Nicastro: Otherwise you're not so resistant to the idea of trying something different, right? So they probably need it the most.

Amy Herman: Agreed. I'm going to use the corporate term. I'm going to talk about the growth mindset versus the fixed mindset and the people that are going to shut their eyes and ears to this and say, I do not need some crazy lady telling me to look at Picasso to help with my job. The growth mindset says, you know what, I'm good at what I do. I'm talented. That's why I'm in this position, but I need to keep growing. I need to sharpen my edge and I need to be innovative.

Amy Herman: The fixed mindset says, you know what? They hired me because I am excellent at what I do. I don't need anything else. And it's usually the people with the fixed mindsets that are resistant to my training and resistant to my methodology. And I'm sorry to say, they get left behind and they're cutting off their noses to spite their faces because in the end, all I want this work to be is empowering to the individual, giving them additional tools to do what they do and do it even better.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. That makes sense. All right. So if someone is open to this method, how do they know it's working? Like how do you know when you've achieved success with a client that you're working with?

Amy Herman: The simplest and easiest way that I know the methodology works is my clients come back over and over and over again to train not only their new cohorts, but to refresh the sense of inquiry and vision of their more seasoned team members. So I work in hospitals year after year after year trading, the new doctors, the new nurses. I've been working with the FBI since 2004, and the whole reason I wrote my first book is because I got this feedback from participants in my program saying, got to tell you how I use this. You know, I was in this situation in Afghanistan and I missed this or a nurse will say, I never thought of looking at this from so and so's perspective.

Amy Herman: And I thought this is just too good. I need to, I've always known that art's powerful because I'm an art historian, but I'm just channeling that power of art and giving it to people who wouldn't necessarily look at art for a living. And when they come back to me, not only telling me that it resonated, but with practical application, the greatest for me that the methodology seems to be working.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Yeah. All right. So obviously one choice.

Amy Herman: That's a word that's not allowed in my program. Sarah. We're never allowed to say obviously.

Sarah Nicastro: Obviously, okay.

Amy Herman: Because things are so complex.

Sarah Nicastro: Right? So, listeners could have obviously no, I did it again.

Amy Herman: See we do it all the time.

Sarah Nicastro: So now I'm going to trip myself up.

Amy Herman: Of course you are. It's okay.

Sarah Nicastro: Listeners, they can read your book.

Amy Herman: Yes.

Sarah Nicastro: They could check out artful perceptions and learn more about how you work with organizations. But for those just curious about the idea, how could they get started kind of dipping their toe into this concept? You know, what are some ways for them to maybe test it out a little bit?

Amy Herman: Sure. So yes, you said they could definitely read my books. Artful perception is my website, which tells you about methodology. But if you really just want to try it out on yourself, two things you could do. If you're brave enough to go into a museum, I want you to walk into a gallery and just look around the museum. Don't read any labels and pick one work of art that speaks to you that you want to take home with you, walk up to it and just spend five minutes with it and figure out what is it about this painting that makes me want to take it home. Just spend five minutes with a work of art because you're going to engage your brain in a way that you wouldn't normally. And don't spend too much time in the museum. And only after that, read the label and see if your observations are in sync with what the label says. That's number one.

Amy Herman: Number two, if you're too busy, you don't have time, who can get to a museum. I take it for granted. I live in New York City. On your way to work tomorrow, I want you to go out of your way, either on your way to work or on your way home, go out of your way to notice one thing you didn't notice the day before. Actually look around, out the car window in the parking lot. In the walk in the supermarket, go out of your way and then come home and write it down.

Amy Herman: And I want you to do that every day for seven days. Just write it down. Again, it's engaging your brain in looking for something and making the connection between not only looking but communicating if just to yourself so you can help bridge the gap between what we see and what we say, because it's not enough to see. I work with CEOs. They're brilliant. People say, oh, she's a visionary. I have news. If you can't communicate your vision and your strategy, you're not so brilliant. So it's the idea of looking and communicating. That's what people can do in the interim. If they don't want to get the book right now, or they don't want to go to the website, think about engaging what they see on a daily basis.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. That sounds good. Okay. You talk about recognizing relationships and red herrings. Can you tell me what that means?

Amy Herman: Sure. The idea of relationships and red herrings. We take certain things for granted. We know this person, but red herrings are things that we think we see, but we don't really know. And if something catches your eye, there's a reason it catches your eye. You need to be able to go with something. And also you have to make sure that the things that you're depending on really there is veracity there. You know, this comes back to, I talk about biases. A lot, people know all about it, bias, cognitive bias, blah, blah, blah. There's so many biases. The one that I think is most dangerous is the anchor bias. Most people don't talk about the anchor bias. It's the human tendency to believe the first thing we see or hear is true. And you know what? Think about the news we get all the time.

Amy Herman: You hear it. It must be true. Well, that's what a red herring can be. You can hear it. You say, oh, it's absolutely true. I'm running with it. Ooh, resist the urge. And if there's a question or your gut tells you to look elsewhere, listen to your gut. Look at your relationships, determine on what basis. Are they sound? Can I rely on them? And the things that you're not so sure, be sure to question them because there are red herrings that are out there and be aware of the anchor bias.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. Can you recap for me why the use of the word obviously is prohibited?

Amy Herman: Absolutely. And I didn't mean to catch you in a moment, snagged you. At the beginning of all my sessions, I lay out three rules. Number one, don't write anything down. Number two, engage in the conversation because the more you put in, the more you're going to take out. And the third rule, which is the hardest to follow is that for the time that I'm together with my clients, I ask them to refrain from two words, obviously, and clearly.

Amy Herman: And the reason is, we live in work in a complex world. Nothing is obvious and even less is clear. So you say, well obviously we have a case of X. What if I don't know why it's obvious. Am I going to stop you and say, Sarah, can you please explain to me why that's obvious? So instead of assuming a certain level of knowledge and sort of introducing a potentially antagonistic situation, say it appears to me to be a case of X because of Y and Z instead of saying, well, obviously it's X. And you think of how, not only does that deescalate a situation, but you think about in companies where there are hierarchies or in the operating room.

Amy Herman: Well, the doctor says, well, obviously it's this. What if the intern sees something else? And because of the hierarchy, isn't going to say, well, Dr. Jones, why can't it be this? So if the doctor were wise and thinking about pedagogy and say, well, it appears to me to be this tumor because of all the evidence of X, Y, and Z around it. Better way to observe. It's a better way to communicate. It's more inclusive and it deescalates without having to say I'm deescalating. So just so you know that when my sessions are in person, if anyone says obviously, or clearly I make the whole room applaud. So they're reminded, oh, maybe I shouldn't do that. And I want you to know you're not alone. When I tell people that they broke the rule they use obviously again and again, and again. It calls attention to a word that we're using, and we're not really sure what the implications are. That's all.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I love that. No, I'm glad you caught me and called me out. And now it's something that I'll pay attention to. See, this is what the self improvement is all about. Learning different things and applying them and working through that. All right, Amy, any other advice to close us out on problem solving? Any other comments you would want to share with our listeners?

Amy Herman: Well, first of all, thank you very much for having me. I really appreciate it, but I'm going at the risk of repeating myself because I think they're points worth driving home. The two biggest takeaways from my talk with you and for people in the business world. I work with executives. I work with heads of companies all the time is really try to be that person on whom nothing is lost. Really try to reengage all of your senses internally, externally with all your stakeholders and on a more practical level, don't let perfection be the enemy of good. When you have to solve problems, solve your problems, get the tire off your neck and do what you have to do to solve your problems.

Sarah Nicastro: I love it.

Amy Herman: I would leave them with.

Sarah Nicastro: Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to have had you. Really enjoyed the conversation. So the book two books, Visual Intelligence, and Fixed: How to Perfect the Fine Art of Problem Solving. I assume people can find anywhere they buy their books and the website is artfulperception.com. If you want to take a look at a little bit more of what Amy does. So, be sure to check those things out. Amy, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it.

Amy Herman: Sarah, thank you. It was really a pleasure talking with you. Thanks so much.

Sarah Nicastro: Yes. You can learn more by visiting us at futureoffieldservice.com. You can also find us on LinkedIn as well as Twitter @thefutureofs. The future of field service podcast is published in partnership with ifs. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thank for listening. 

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Sarah welcomes Neil Thompson, creator of Teach the Geek and host of the Teach the Geek podcast, to discuss his personal journey as a product development engineer that found he needed to improve his communication skills when he was put into a position where presenting and public speaking was necessary. As a result, he’s created the Teach the Geek program to help others in similar position and weighs in on how companies can best upskill and reskill an engineering-centric workforce to have more soft skills.

Sarah Nicastro: Welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today we're going to be talking about the need to upskill and reskill the frontline workforce with some soft skills and communication skills, and talk a little bit about is that possible? How is that possible? To what degree is that possible? Et cetera. I'm excited to welcome with me here today Neil Thompson, who is the creator of Teach the Geek. Neil, welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast.

Neil Thompson: Thank you for having me.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, thanks for being here. So, before we dig into the topic at hand, tell our listeners a bit about yourself, your journey, and your program Teach the Geek.

Neil Thompson: It all stemmed from my initial struggles, having to give presentations in front of senior management at the second company I worked at. The first company I worked at I was a research associate. I only worked in the lab, I did experiments, wrote protocols, wrote reports, and went home, came back, did the same thing the next day. And I didn't have a problem with that. I did that for about two years. It was the second job that I took as a product development engineer where public speaking, or just communicating with people, came into play. At least for the first few months I didn't have to do any of that. It was very similar to my first job, but then it came a time where I was made a project lead. So I wasn't product development engineer anymore, I was the project lead.

Neil Thompson: So why the project lead? Well, the company was too cheap to hire project managers, so they pushed that responsibility onto product development engineers, one of which was having to give presentations on project status in front of senior management on a monthly basis. So we're talking the CEO, CTO, CMO, fill the blank O. All these people were in the audience listening to me give presentations. And those first few presentations were absolutely horrendous. I didn't know it was possible to sweat that profusely from one's body. Sweat's not supposed to come out of your fingernails, but there it was. And I know a lot of the other engineers that had to get presentations who also were made project leads. Their presentations weren't all that much better than mine. I think the issue that many of us have is having all this technical expertise, but not putting it in such a way that non-technical people can understand. With the exception of the CTO, basically everybody else in the senior management team weren't technical.

Neil Thompson: So a lot of the times what would happen is I would have to answer questions after the presentation that I thought I'd answered during the presentation, but because I didn't put it in such a way that these people could understand now I'm sweating even more. I was sweating enough during the presentation and now even after the presentation I'm sweating even more than that. And basically was a waste of time for myself, waste of time for the audience. It was just a waste of time in general. So I eventually realized that this is something I really should get better at. And I did just because of all the reps I had to do. I had to do this every month. And I basically took everything that I learned in becoming more effective at communicating with these people and I turned it into an online course and I called it Teach the Geek to Speak. And it's geared towards people like myself, people that have technical jobs and have to give presentations in front of others, and just how to go about doing it more effectively.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. So, when you started being in a position where you had to give these presentations, would you say it was more nerves or more not feeling like you related the people you were speaking to, or that they didn't relate to you? Or was it more actual skill of here are some of the things that make for an effective presentation, or just a combination of all of that?

Neil Thompson: Oh, it was all the above, Sarah. It was not preparing. So a lot of the times I would just get up there and talk, or in some instances it would be me preparing slides and just putting a whole bunch of stuff on them and reading them when I got up in front of people. And it's very difficult to engage people when you're reading, because you're not really looking at them. And then as I mentioned, ultimately, what would happen is I get these questions afterwards, so to then nerves even came in there. So it was just an amalgam of a bunch of problems that I had and the other engineers had given these presentations, and it just wasn't effective. And at some point, in case you want keep being a sweaty mess, you're going to do something about it.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. So the program you created, Teach the Geek... I mean, first of all, I think it's really cool that you saw the opportunity to not just... You recognized, "Okay, I need to get better at this. If I'm going to have to keep doing it, I need to get better at it." But you also recognize the opportunity to help others that were in similar positions that had the same struggles. So, I think that's really cool. I also think it's kind of outgoing, right? I mean, it forces you even further out of the comfort zone, because now you're not only doing the presentations and improving your own skills, but you are communicating with enough others that you're helping them improve their skills. So, I think that's really, really neat. Tell us a little bit about what the program is like. So, it's intended to help people who are going to be tasked with public speaking, correct?

Neil Thompson: That's right.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. And it's an online course. Just kind of give us an overview of what's the length and who is it... It's geared toward folks like yourself. So people in highly technical positions that want to improve their skills speaking to a group of non-technical people.

Neil Thompson: Correct.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. So how long is the program?

Neil Thompson: The program if you were to listen to everything from start to finish is about 90 minutes. And I made it that length on purpose. I didn't want it to be too long because I wanted people to actually finish it. From a bit of research that I did on courses one of the issues that there are with courses is the finish rate isn't very high, especially if there's a lot of modules to go through people. Initially it start off, "Oh, we're excited about doing it," but then somewhere in the middle they're going to lose interest and then never finish it. Well, if it's just 90 minutes, I mean, that's really difficult to lose interest.

Neil Thompson: I mean, you probably watch movies that are longer. So I made it that short on purpose. But then at the end of it there are exercises that I suggest people do to actually improve their public speaking skills. And you can listen to all or do all the courses you want, listen to all the podcasts, watch all the YouTube videos you want, but if you don't actually get out there and implement whatever you learn from these various resources you'll never get better. So I have exercises at the end of it to really implement what I talk about in the course.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. It's part knowledge and information, and then it's part, like you said, you improved yourself just by a forced practice, right? And so there's an element... But I think to me it seems like another part of the value of this program for people is just the recognition that if they feel uncomfortable or nervous or this isn't familiar to them, they're not alone in that, right? There's also, I think, some comradery of, "Okay, I'm not the first person to feel this way, I won't be the last person to feel this way, and if Neil and these other people have improved I can improve too or learn these different skills." So I think that's really cool. So, Neil, I explained a little bit before we started recording this that... So, your experience is different than that of our audience, but not so much so that there aren't some correlations.

Sarah Nicastro: And what I mean by that is... So you were an engineer and you had to start giving these presentations. What I explained to you before we started recording is that within our audience a lot of companies are in a situation where they have field engineers. So they have field engineers that go out and do either installation or repair work on sometimes very highly technical equipment. And historically, their job has been very much just go to the customer sites, fix the problem and leave, right? And for a variety of reasons what those companies are asking from their field engineers is evolving a bit because the nature of service is evolving such that rather than just completing the technical work we're now also looking to those field engineers to play a very important role in building relationships with those customers, and maybe sharing knowledge and insights with them in addition to fixing the actual equipment that they're to fix.

Sarah Nicastro: And so, this gives companies the task of really upskilling and reskilling those technicians to be more competent at building and maintaining and nurturing those relationships. And so, while it is a different than your personal experience it's not so different, right? And so I wanted to ask you some questions related to this topic. You call your program Teach the Geek, so my first question is, do you feel like all geeks or all highly technical engineer type people can be upskilled in these areas related to communication and soft skills or no?

Neil Thompson: Oh, I would never say that anyone cannot learn a skill. If they're interested in learning the skill you can learn pretty much anything, and especially if you see the benefit of learning that skill. It's really difficult to be forced to learn something. So if you're a field engineer and you want to continue you to just do your job, fix whatever instrument there is, and then go about your day and rinse and repeat, then yes, those people would be difficult to upskill, but if you are someone who sees the benefit of becoming more effective with just communicating with others, then you'll do it.

Neil Thompson: And not only that, but if you're a field engineer who wants the promotion and pay raises that you think you deserve, well, becoming better at communicating with others is a must. Oftentimes, those are the people who get those promotions and pay raises. It's not necessarily the most technically gifted people in the group or the ones who are the best at their job, technically it's those who do a good job of communicating their worth to the company. And so if you see it that way, then it'd be very easy to then convince you that this is something to get better at.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Now, if you reflect back on your personal experience, now you were kind of thrown into this situation where you had to do these presentations and you kind of recognized your own need to polish those skills or improve those skills. If companies are looking at this in a more strategic or proactive way like, "Okay, we recognize this role is evolving and we need to take more steps to upskill and reskill our field engineers with some of these soft skills and communication skills," what would you suggest they keep in mind as they kind of take on that initiative?

Neil Thompson: Well, there certainly may be some resistance to some. I mean, as I mentioned, there's some that just want to continue to do what they've been doing. And change can be really difficult for some people, but there're going to be people that embrace it. And so, those who do, well, they'll be more willing to go along with whatever strategy that the company has in improving these skills with these people. And for those who are more resistant perhaps if they see the benefits that the ones who did embrace it now have perhaps that's enough to convince them that this is a path to go down as well.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative). Are there certain approaches or tools, or types of teachings that you would recommend specifically for an audience that's highly technical?

Neil Thompson: Proof. You got to prove that this stuff kind of works. So, just even convincing engineers and scientists types to do anything they want to see some sort of evidence that this is something to even bother doing. So, having case studies of what people have been able to do when they've gone through, for instance, this course and how it's been able to help them is really helpful in convincing them that this is something that could work for them as well. And one of those case studies that I tend to use happens be one of my former coworkers. He was a product development engineer just like I was. And as part of our job, in addition to having to give these presentations in front of management, we'd often have to go to conferences and present either posters or even orally.

Neil Thompson: And so in the event that we were presenting posters, he would often shy away from a talking to the of people who'd come to our poster, and oftentimes that'd have to be the one to do most of the talking. But because he went through the course, he's become a lot more comfortable engaging with others to the point where he doesn't even work as a product development engineer anymore, he works as a product manager. And that's moving from product development to marketing. So if you're working in market, you're definitely going to have a more customer-facing position. So he had to have been way more comfortable dealing with others to have even taken such a position. So, obviously, something must have worked. I'd like to think that my course has something to do with that.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Yeah, that's really cool. So, when you work with people, do you find any commonality in sort of how technical people evolve through this process? Is every path different? Or are there are any kind of common stages or phases of what it looks like to move from being kind of uncomfortable to getting more familiar and kind of mastering the art a bit?

Neil Thompson: Well, I think for a lot of technical people there's a lot of technical jargon that they're comfortable with and they use amongst each other. But one thing that they have to understand is that the audience, especially if you're talking to a non-technical audience, they may not understand that technical jargon, so it'd be in your best interest to explain it or perhaps even use other words that are more commonly used. Because what would happen a lot of the times is people may not even ask what those words mean. They just won't listen at all. And so you want to avoid that scenario altogether. So, it's in your best interest if you're a technical person that uses a lot of technical jargon just generally in your daily life doing your work that keep the expertise of the people you're speaking to in mind when you're preparing your presentations.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. One thing I'm thinking about, Neil, as we're talking through this for the organizations that would be in our audience is it might be best to consider either leveraging an external resource or co-creating a program with someone on your technical team who is more accepting of the change, right? Because what I was just thinking as you were talking about kind of the jargon and that sort of thing is there's probably a lot of aspects to this where it's the creation of the program or the execution of the upskilling and reskilling is done by someone who isn't an engineer or isn't the technical person. They could miss a lot because some of the things that maybe come natural to them wouldn't come natural to others, or some of the kind of foundational elements like that, realizing not to use too many acronyms or too much technical speak.

Sarah Nicastro: And so, kind of the training of when you're talking about this with the customer here's kind of the level you want to present at, those sorts of things. You kind of need the firsthand or could benefit from the firsthand input of someone on your team who is highly technical to help with shaping what upskilling and reskilling could look like so that you don't miss important aspects, and so that maybe some of the technical people who are a little bit more resistant to change respect the program more because it's been created or co-created by someone like them. Does that make sense?

Neil Thompson: Well, it makes perfect sense. That's the main reason Teach the Geek is geared towards people like myself, because of that credibility I would think that someone like myself would bring as opposed to someone else that has a communications course who is in that field. I mean, there's a lot of communication courses out there, but are they geared towards people in the technical field? And if they are, were they created by people that come from that field? I don't know of any besides my own. So I think that's been really helpful in me just differentiating myself.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I think that that's just something to keep in mind is... You mentioned change is hard, right? And so when you're asking employees, especially longstanding employees, to really evolve the way that they've done their job for a long period of time, number one, like you said, it's tough if it's just force, force, force, right? The more you can create buy-in the better, but number two, think about how you're creating this in a way that shows you respect the technical talent, not that you're just trying to change it, right? Because you're not trying to remove technical expertise, you're just trying to augment it with some of the soft skills or communication skills that haven't been a focus up to that point. It's a really good point. Okay, so shifting gears just a bit, Neil, I know one of the other things that you're passionate about is creating more awareness around STEM careers, and particularly for black children. So, tell us a little bit about your passion in this area. And I know that you've written a children's book, so tell us about that as well.

Neil Thompson: Sure. The book is called Ask Uncle Neil: why is my hair curly? It's about my nephew asking me why his hair is the way it is, and I use science to answer the question. And the motivation for me writing the book is to encourage more black children to consider careers in STEM, science, technology, engineering, and math. And I'm really keen on the messaging of my motivation. My goal isn't to convince more black children to go into STEM, it's to have them see it as an option, because ultimately it's your life.

Neil Thompson: You're going to go into whatever you want to go into, but I just want them to know that there's this other thing out there called STEM that is for them if they want it to be for them. STEM's for anybody who has the interest in it and is willing to do the work. It's not for any particular group of people. And that's what I really want to get across from the children's book. And eventually, it will be a series. That's the plan. This is the first of the series. So the series will always be my nephew asking me a question and I use science to answer it.

Sarah Nicastro: I love that. We've done quite a bit of content on this podcast specifically around creating more awareness of STEM and the skilled trades, right? We need to do a better job of emphasizing to young people the wide variety of career paths that exist. And I think to your point it isn't about advocating anyone go down a particular path at all, it's just about making sure that we're doing a better job of showing all of the options that are exist to all of the people that they exist for, and to make sure that girls aren't just presented with the options of becoming a princess, right? But there's all of these other options, and that we're doing a better job of representation when comes to, what do these careers look like? And all of those sorts of things. So I really, really like that, and I definitely want to check out the book.

Sarah Nicastro: So besides the book you have so far, and the rest that we'll be a part of that series, what are some of the other ways that you think we can all have a positive impact on making STEM, I guess, more prominent and more attainable for those who have an interest in it?

Neil Thompson: Well, it starts with talking about it. I mean, this seems to be coming full circle. If you're an engineer or a scientist who is adept at communicating with others, then you should be more comfortable communicating what you do with others as well. And this doesn't even have to do within the company, this could be outside the company talking to students about what you do. And that's really helpful. People can't do what they don't know is out there. So if you're talking about what you do as your job, then they might think, "That sounds interesting. I want to look more into that." But in the event that they never hear from you or someone like you, well, then they never hear about that particular position, that particular job. And then it becomes way more difficult for them to ever go into it unless they do some research and it's come across it happenstance.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I have two sons, Neil, five and six, and one of their favorite shows right now is Ada Twist, Scientist. And I love that for them. I love that they are interested in that show. I love how educational it is, but I also love how it just shows these career paths and different just things that we haven't done a good enough job showing and influence really early on, so that kids grow up with just more awareness that there are these careers and these different options. So you also host a podcast. So tell us a little bit about that.

Neil Thompson: Sure. It's called Teach the Geek Podcast. And I interview typically people in the STEM fields, a lot of scientists and engineers, about their journeys in public speaking. But then I also talk to them about their career journeys. And that's even been more interesting, especially for the ones who perhaps started at one place and then ended up somewhere completely different. One that stands out is a woman who got a degree in civil engineering, never worked as a civil engineer though. She then went to law school and became a lawyer and did that for a few years, but then she left that and became a stay at home mom for about a decade, and now she works as a personal stylist. Not the typical career path, but it's so interesting to hear those types of stories of people not necessarily starting... Well, starting at one place and ending up somewhere completely different and not feeling like they had to stay on a particular path, but then just they were willing to follow whatever interest they had. And those types of people are always interesting for me to talk to.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, I love that. And I think that's the great thing about the program you've created with Teach the Geek, is people shouldn't need to feel stuck. I mean, there's so many options to learn and to grow. And if there are things about your professional life that you want to change, or if you want to completely pivot, it's good to know that's possible. And you have the power to make improvements, you have the power to expand your skillsets. And for people that want to, those stories of how people completely switch it up are really cool as well. Okay, so Teach the Geek Podcast, I want to ask you two questions, and I'm going to pause here to make sure I separate them because I am notorious for asking multiple questions at once and it always throws people off. So first question is, what words of wisdom or advice would you offer someone in your former position? So someone in an engineering role that wants to improve some of their communication skills.

Neil Thompson: Look for opportunities to do it, and don't shy away from the ability to actually get out there and do it. I think I mentioned earlier, you can read all the books and listen to all the podcasts, do all the courses you want, but you won't get better at it unless you do it. And don't be that disgruntled engineer or scientist sitting in their cubicle because someone else in the company got the promotion, the pay raise that you thought you deserved. If they were the one that was out there improving their communication skills, talking to decision makers, and they eventually got that position, and you didn't do any of that, well, you have no reason to be upset.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, that's good advice. And what advice would your words of wisdom would you want to leave with some of the people that listen to this podcast, which are those ultimately responsible for figuring out how to upscale and reskill those field engineers and help them become better at some of this customer communication?

Neil Thompson: Well, I think to convince people of anything you have to show them what's in it for them. And so if those engineers are told by the management, "Well, you know how people get jobs here, right? It's from networking, it's from communicating with people, decision makers, people in authority." If you're not willing to do any of that kind of stuff, well, then you're likely going to be that engineer or scientist sitting in their cubicle upset. And then that pushes it back on that field engineer or whoever the technical person is to think, "Well, I don't want to be that disgruntled person sitting in the cubicle. So if this is going to be something to help me so that I'm not that person, well, then bring it on."

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. The other thing I'm thinking about, Neil, going back to the point we made about change and all of that, this situation's going to look different for every organization, but one thing to consider might be the role of positive reinforcement versus negative reinforcement. So, if you have the opportunity going into this to make it something where rather than penalizing people for not doing this effort, you can incentivize them to do it, then maybe you have more of those case study examples of "Hey, Chris just completed this and as a result he got a raise, or he has some sort of perk, and Chris can speak to his experience in a positive way." Right?

Sarah Nicastro: Again, it's about I think respecting the fact that we're all human and we have the capacity to change and to grow and expand our skills, but that the people pushing that agenda need to do so respectfully, and need to keep in mind how they're communicating the benefit to the employee that they're asking this of. That makes sense. Okay. All right, Neil, tell our listeners where they can learn more about Teach the Geek. So we have the program, let people know about that as well as the podcast.

Neil Thompson: Sure. So the program you can go to teachthegeek.com. And if you want to check out the podcast... Well, you can either check out the YouTube channel or the podcast and you can get to either of them at youtube.teachthegeek.com. And then if you're interested in learning more about the book, you can go to askuncleneilbooks.com.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. Excellent. All right, Neil, well, they thank you so, so much for coming on and sharing today. I really appreciate it. I think your story is a really inspiring one. And I think it's great that you've created this program and you are taking your own experience and using it as something to help others. And I'm going to check out the book for sure, and I appreciate you being here.

Neil Thompson: Thank you for having me.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. You can learn more by visiting us at futureoffieldservice.com. You can also find us on LinkedIn as well as Twitter @TheFutureOfFS. The Future of Field Service podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thank you for listening.

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Octavia Goredema, founder of Twenty Ten Agency, has coached leaders at renowned companies including Google, American Airlines, Tinder, General Motors, Nike, and Dow Jones, and is also the author of the new book PREP, PUSH, PIVOT: Essential Career Strategies for Underrepresented Women. She joins Sarah to discuss the theme of this year’s International Women’s Day – Break the Bias.

Sarah Nicastro: Welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Every year, we do a special episode of the podcast around International Women's Day. And we're doing the same today. The theme of this year's International Women's Day is break the bias. I'm excited to be welcome today by Octavia Goredema, who is a career coach, founder of Twenty Ten Agency, where she's coached leaders at renowned companies you're all familiar with, including Google, American Airlines, Nike, General Motors, et cetera. And also author of the new book, Prep, Push, Pivot: Essential Career Strategies for Underrepresented Women. Octavia, thanks for being here with me today.

Octavia Goredema: Oh, thank you, Sarah. I'm happy to be here.

Sarah Nicastro: Before we get into the conversation, tell our listeners a bit about yourself and your journey.

Octavia Goredema: Oh, well, thank you for that warm welcome. And yes, I'm a career coach. I started my company Twenty Ten Agency because I'm really passionate about helping others to do their best work. And as a black woman, as I was starting my career, which began in England before I moved to the United States, I've been in here in Los Angeles I think 16 years now. I just started to see that there were just so many barriers to advancement and I'm really passionate about opening doors and making sure others have the opportunity to do their best work. And actually when I worked, myself with a coach for the very first time that I really had a light bulb moment and made a pivot of my own and trained to become a coach. And the work that I do is working with corporations, such as some of the larger companies that you referenced and also individuals. With companies help them retain talent, with individuals to find strategies to position yourself for promotion or to bounce back from losing a job or navigate a career break.

Octavia Goredema: But I recognize most people don't have the ability to work with a coach, Sarah. I discovered coaching when I was already maybe 15 years into my career. Most of the individuals I worked with, my team and I, we're the first coach they've ever encountered in their career. And so I realized there's a huge gap there. And so I wanted to write a book that would help underrepresented women navigate some of those really important and often challenging moments, especially if you don't have someone that you can work with one on one. And so my book was released here in the United States in the new year, and it'll be released in the United Kingdom on International Women's Day.

Sarah Nicastro: Nice, awesome. I'm glad we're here to have this conversation. I think it's really cool that you focus on helping on both sides. Helping businesses understand some of the ways that they may need to evolve or make changes, improvements, and then also helping to inspire individuals as well. One question I have is you mentioned the barriers when you started your career. How much progress do you feel we've made?

Octavia Goredema: It's not just actually the barriers when starting the career, it's actually as you are growing and developing in your career and the data speaks for itself. The pay gap persists. Before the pandemic, it was predicted it might take a century, Sarah, to close the pay gap. That's beyond my lifetime, your lifetime, my children's lifetime. Women of color continue to be the most underrepresented group in the corporate pipeline, almost regardless of industry sectors, data shows it. I'm really nervous and scared about what the data will show as we look back on what's happening right now. We've already started to see studies that show women are being impacted severely when it comes to unemployment and leaving the work force as a result of everything we've navigated and are still navigating through the pandemic.

Octavia Goredema: It's a really challenging and difficult time. And there's a lot of systemic issues that are contributing to the challenges that women face. As a coach, some of the work that I'm proudest of is the work that I've done during this pandemic in terms of supporting individuals in some of the most unprecedented and challenging times. There's still so much work to be done.

Sarah Nicastro: I think this year's conversation just feels especially important because we've seen the impact that COVID had and how it's amplified for women. I've been fortunate enough, privileged enough to continue working this entire time. I have two small children, but I have help. And I haven't had to sacrifice my career, but I feel so deeply for those that have been in that position. And so I think we're going to talk a little bit later about what are some of the things that companies can do to help get those women back into the workforce when they're ready. I asked you about progress because we've had a number of these conversations, one every year, the podcast has been around for International Women's Day, but also sometimes we feature women in field service, women in tech, women in stem and I have gotten feedback sometimes that if things aren't going to get better if you keep calling it out that way. It shouldn't be women in or it shouldn't be categorized that way.

Sarah Nicastro: And the first time I got that feedback, I really thought long and hard about it because I try to be very careful about just reflecting on my own practices and making sure that I'm not doing something with good intent that is having the opposite impact. But I think the reality is there's still so much work to be done. And I think that until it doesn't need to be called out then we keep calling it out.

Octavia Goredema: Yes, absolutely.

Sarah Nicastro: Because I don't know how else we talk about it. I'm glad to be here doing that today. As I mentioned in the intro, the theme of this year's International Women Day is break the bias. And so I wanted to start by talking about what are some of the biases that you feel are playing a major role in still holding women back today?

Octavia Goredema: Well, there's so many. And not every woman's experience in the workplace is the same as anyone else's, but the data just shows when you look at the most senior levels of almost any company in any industry, the representation isn't there. The representation isn't there. When you look at what women are earning, it's not a parity with men when you look at the data. We've had legislation that's been put in place to address these things. And even those things still don't translate. Those things are still there. And then as a coach, I have a unique glimpse into what actually happens in someone's career. What happens after they are hired or as they are promoted and then after they're promoted and even senior leaders. And the things that happen day in and day out, no one else might ever know.

Octavia Goredema: There's a lot of biases or experiences that can be invisible even to somebody else who works alongside you, or is sat in the same meeting as you, always on a Zoom with you. It can be a very personal experience that not only is sometimes difficult to identify, but can be very difficult to talk about. Very difficult. Sometimes you don't even know if you've not been invited to a meeting that you should be, or if you've not been considered for a project or how do you know that in that moment as well. And so this is what makes it even harder. That's why we often then look at the studies and we look, well, how many women are there? And there's two black female CEOs in the fortune 500.

Octavia Goredema: We look at things like that because those are the indicators that we have, but the actual realities of what's happening day in, day out are invisible and nobody sees. And when you are building your career, what I often see as a coach is there comes a point, it's not the same point for everyone, where you hit a ceiling. You might not see that ceiling coming. You might not even realize you've hit it for a while, until you are actually reflecting and you're perhaps looking, or maybe looking at your peers or you're comparing, or you have a conversation and you suddenly realize, oh my goodness, that person earning how much, because it's not always immediately apparent to you.

Octavia Goredema: And this is what makes it even harder. And you mentioned you have children, Sarah, I have children too. And it wasn't until maybe five years into parenthood that I really realize, oh my goodness, a lot of these things are not my fault. I didn't make a mistake in terms of what I think it's just that the systems are not set up to support working mothers in many cases in the way that they should be. And that can be a very difficult thing when you are navigating this because you don't know.

Sarah Nicastro: Right.

Octavia Goredema: You don't know.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I've shared a number of my own experiences as someone who wanted to be a mom and have a career, and some of the things that have worked against me, some of the comments that have been made and are still made all the time and you mentioned some of the systemic issues earlier and I think that the reality is there are still very real gender norms and belief systems around that in place that are not only deeply rooted, but multi-layered, that it, to your point, can be really hard to point all of those things out. I mean, I feel like my husband and I have a pretty egalitarian marriage and it still is influenced by all of those things and the expectations and all of that. Now when you think about the theme of this year's International Women's Day breaks the bias. I know there are a lot and they can be hard to sort of identify, are there any that come to mind that you think people need to be particularly aware of or focused on?

Octavia Goredema: That's a really hard question to answer, because there were so many layers to that. And I think I would like people just to, regardless of their own gender and background, but to really perhaps ask that question of themselves and where can they support other women? Where can we, as women support other women? Where can we pay it forward? What are some of the things that we can do that can help support and amplify? Because I very much believe that these conversations continue, need to be had beyond March 8th and beyond Women's History Month, they just need to be ongoing.

Octavia Goredema: And so I think that would be the challenge that I have often. Often, I sometimes go into companies and work across the board, not just with women, not just with men, not just with individuals who are being coached, but with senior leadership as well to really think about how to set up diverse talent and underrepresented talent and want your female employees for success in the long term. In the long term. Because that's what matters, because it's not just about hiring women, it's about advancing women and supporting women throughout our entire careers. Yes, there's a lot to do.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Besides conversations like this, I mean, if you were going into work with an organization and speaking with them on how do we break these biases and stereotypes in a way that allows us to make more progress, what does that look like? I mean, what are some of the things that organization should be doing?

Octavia Goredema: Yeah. I think visibility and advocacy really matters. Be invested, identify opportunities to support women with their professional goals. As a coach, I see the women that are thriving in terms of the women I work directly with are the ones that have sponsors at their organizations. It's not just about providing what's needed for us to do our best work, but being there to support when we make mistakes and to show and nurture and amplify and be a resource. Often, as we progress, there are fewer and fewer role models we may have. And so it's really important that it's not just having someone to look to, but someone who is invested in your success. If you, as a leader and whatever level of leadership you are, always be mindful about who is on your team, or who is in your organization and the visibility of those individuals and those opportunities for those individuals and what you can do to make a difference.

Octavia Goredema: Because those opportunities can change someone's whole career, whether it's a stretch assignment or even a meeting that you are part of, or a conversation or a mentorship, or just understanding what might come next, or what they might be for you, can really change someone's perspective. The mentors that I have had and continue to have, have been transformative for me. And so I think it's having that intent, which can be sometimes hard to measure. It's not something that's always immediately tangible. A lot of organizations are trying to make those culture shifts to have these systems and to nurture pipelines of talent, not lose women as we progress. I think that is very, very important.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. That makes sense. You mentioned earlier that women of color are the most underrepresented group in the corporate pipeline.

Octavia Goredema: Yes.

Sarah Nicastro: What is your view on how that changes?

Octavia Goredema: In my book, I think I quoted a study from Working Mother Media that talked about 46%, only 46% of underrepresented women in their study had attended a meeting with senior executives in the last two years compared to 63% of white men. Advocacy, visibility, mentorship, coaching, professional development, it all matters. A lot of companies are trying really, really hard to diversify their recruiting processes and they're bringing it up. But it's retaining those individuals. That is just so key. That is so key. And that takes time. That takes time.

Octavia Goredema: Being an advocate also involves being a good listener as well, providing space to ask people questions and be responsive to what you hear. And so there are some companies that I've seen reports on who are actually, especially at the start of this year, who are actually making a real stake here and we have time compensation for executives to hitting certain goals and targets long term. This is important to us. And if we succeed, these are the measures by which we will, but it takes time. And so when you as an individual are navigating your career, you can't control all of these environments that are around you. And so the book that I wrote, Prep, Push, Pivot, I really wanted to support women who are navigating this. And also if you are a leader who has underrepresented women on your team, read the book and it gives you a perspective on perhaps some of the questions and challenges that we are considering that might not have been front of mind for you and awareness and understanding, I think is really important.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. When it comes to retaining diverse talent and some of the considerations that are maybe unique to women, what do you feel like is some of the most important things. What are some of the needs that companies need to accommodate or address to be able to retain and develop more women?

Octavia Goredema: I think providing the visibility that I talked about too, and also those stretch assignments and opportunities, they've been countless reports that talk about how, when we are looking at roles, whether that's for promotion or new roles, women tend to look at all of the job description an see where we align. And if we align with 80 or 90% of it, yes, we can do that. Well, in comparison, more often than not, men will just put their names forward regardless.

Octavia Goredema: And I've seen that play out in my own household. I was talking to my husband about an opportunity a female friend of mine was considering that she was a little concerned about some components of the job description. And my husband said to me, "Who reads job descriptions? If I want a job, I just go for it." He said, he said, "If I read the job description, I won't be able to do half the things on there so I don't want to pay attention to those things." And so identifying when you see potential, nurturing that potential and creating conversations and opportunities and exposure to get that pipeline of women to feel supported and amplified and ready and mentored, because that is so key when we are breaking barriers of our own, the next opportunity, even the one that we can't see yet are the ones where we want senior leaders to be identifying, highlighting, nurturing for those things.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Octavia Goredema: That's what's so important. Providing space to grow whether you at the start middle or more senior in your career.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I guess what I'm trying to do in my mind is take some of these points that are important, that there are also fairly broad. Like when we talk about create awareness and advocate, I mean yes, but if I'm listening to this and those things aren't intuitive to me, then what does that look like? And what I'm thinking about is three areas, at least that come to mind. One is company culture in a few ways. Number one, I mean, there are companies for which this is genuinely important and a authentic objective. And then there are companies who have these initiatives simply because they have to. But then I would also say related to company culture is the environment that is created to uncover and acknowledge biases to speak up and speak out to have leaders lead by example, in terms of making the culture, working woman friendly, working mom friendly.

Sarah Nicastro: I don't think that a lot of working moms can succeed in a certain type of ultra rigid culture that is a little bit more outdated. The second thing I think of is programs or systems. Some of the things that we've talked about, starting with awareness, but also mentorships and career development paths. Those are all things that companies should be focused on building out so that it isn't leaders who want to play a role in this aren't trying to create the wheel every time. There's sort of a process and a system to help accomplish these goals.

Sarah Nicastro: And then I think the third is leadership enablement. Because there are leaders for whom this will be a personal goal or commitment, but there are those that it's not. So you mentioned perhaps they're incentivized to play a role in this. The other thing is perhaps they are trained or coached in their own right to be better adept at recognizing their own biases and examining what do their teams look like and what does that mean and things like that. I don't know. Those are kind of the three things that came to mind.

Octavia Goredema: And the strategies vary depending on the size of your organization and the demographics of your people and your goals. Large organizations have employee resource groups and networks, which are great, but then you'll have to think about what is how those organizations, how are they funded? Often the people that are leading those organizations are doing jobs. They're doing their day job and they're also creating some kind of mechanism for other employees, which is so powerful. But how is that recognized? How is that supported in the long term? Are you using that? That's a really fantastic incubator to also listen. Are you asking questions in those scripts that could help you and give you insights that you wouldn't hear otherwise? Are you providing safe spaces for sharing? You might have company meetings or channel meetings where you report out, how are you listening back?

Octavia Goredema: There were lots of different considerations for organization, but if you are making an effort to hire, we want to keep your talent. You want to find opportunities. The pay for your business and your organization will just continue. And so you want to make those investments and provide advocacy and mentoring and supporting, and sponsorship, and also hold space to listen to the people that are already part of your culture and your organization, and hear what they might need to your point, because those voices can be so valuable and not everyone perhaps has the opportunity to share in that way when we are at work. Creating spaces and opportunities to do that.

Sarah Nicastro: That's a good point. I mean, if there's an organization that hasn't made as much effort as they want in this area, start by creating a focus group of your women employees and ask them what they think honestly about the experience and what could be better and that's a good point. We talked a little bit earlier about the fact that women were impacted significantly more than men by COVID when it comes to loss of work and having to leave their career. Do you have any thoughts on how we can best support women's reentry into the workplace?

Octavia Goredema: Yeah. The numbers that came out of some of the initial studies for the first year of the pandemic were just horrifying. And as I mentioned at the start of our conversation, I hope it's not the case, but could have the potential to set women back for decades when you look at the ramifications of what that means in terms of not just loss of earning capacity, but just what it takes to rebuild and restart your career. Setting the women that you are hiring up for success as we've talked about is really important. Listening to what might be needed in terms of maybe flexible schedules or roles and responsibilities in terms of locations. But I think above and beyond that, looking for the long term in terms of how to continue to advance women and that next cycle and that next generation, and continue to pay forward because it's above and beyond just this moment right now. The pay gap, which we talked about at the start of our conversation was already going to take decades and decades to close.

Octavia Goredema: Really look at your compensation practices and make sure that you are equitable in terms of how you compensate your employees is so important. Not all women are caregivers, but for those who are, I do hope that maybe the one silver lining coming out of everything that we have been to and are going through the pandemic, that employers that will be much more aware of what it takes to be a working parent today. Because that has been, and will continue to be a challenge. So that we can keep women in the workforce for as long as possible.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I should have thought to write this down and I didn't, so I don't remember any of the names of the organization to reference, but I have seen some different programs created to help with this effort people that are strategically looking for opportunities to offer really flexible roles and hours.

Octavia Goredema: And reentry into the workforce.

Right. So that if there are women who left that can't just come back, maybe in the manner they did before, what are some alternatives? The other thing that, sorry, I thought was really important was, I don't know if it was an article or a podcast, but it was around looking differently in this situation, but really just in general about gaps on resumes and not using that as something that is negatively perceived. Sorry, what were you going to say?

Octavia Goredema: Yes. I was going to say, yes, I just received an email, I think yesterday there are a lot of companies who have reentry to work programs where they're specifically recruiting from large companies like Wells Fargo to Facebook, to smaller companies too, and really targeting women who have taken a break, maybe not just because of the pandemic, but have taken a break in their career. And yes, to your point about gaps in resumes, I know often as employees we are looking to minimize risk. But I can attest as a working parent, I have done my best work ever since becoming a parent. Women have so much to give and there should not be ... A gap in a resume is a non-negotiable. This is what I say to women that I coach who are concerned about this. I talk about, you can do this role.

Octavia Goredema: Your skills and your acumen remains regardless. But I think the pandemic also perhaps has made that more aware that there is no one perfect way to navigate anyone's career and we have to as a whole support people who've stepped away from the workforce for whatever reason, so that we can get our economies back and so we can continue to thrive. And so, yes, I hope the silver lining will be that there's been a lot of less that have been learned in a very short and very pronounced space of time. And I hope that we can find ways to support women who are looking to reenter and rebuild whether it's now or in the future.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I think the other thing is I've read a number of different articles and studies is looking at this isn't applicable to every single type of role understandably, but I mean, looking at the need to evolve the culture around how we assess value. And this, I think was exacerbated by COVID when we had so many people working remote, it becomes less about, okay, how many hours, minutes, seconds is your butt in a seat at a desk versus what is your contribution toward the objectives. I think that's the way it should be, but I think this situation maybe has helped employers that were kind of hanging on to that need for control to recognize that if you focus on creating an environment in which your talent can thrive, they will most times step up to the challenge.

Sarah Nicastro: I mean, people care and want to do well generally. It goes back to kind of that cultural part as well. You talk in your book about how fear is a very big challenge for women when it comes to their careers. And you mentioned earlier the example of your husband saying, I don't even read job descriptions. I just apply. Whereas sometimes a woman or a particular personality would kind of overanalyze every single characteristic. Why do you think fear is so prevalent and what advice can you share?

Octavia Goredema: I think often there's fear of making a mistake. Fear of dropping a ball, fear of just not delivering. And I see that manifest constantly, and it's not about level of seniority. And so I think it's really, really important to know that building your career's, yes, the most personal and valuable investment you'll ever make, but also know you have to give yourself permission to fail sometimes. That doesn't mean you want to set out to fail. That's how you learn as you go. I think it's so important. I always have a smile when I see you see these very senior executives who get fired and bounce back better.

Octavia Goredema: If you really look at it, you see people make mistakes at very senior level. It's not necessarily a career ender, really keep pushing and keep striving and don't be afraid of making a mistake. Don't feel you have to do everything perfectly. We have to learn and we have to grow and I think it's very important if anyone is mentoring someone else to be really transparent about the mistakes that you have made. What you learned from those, how you navigated those. It's really important thing to do and to give space for that. And also you as an individual trust. But even if you do make a misstep, you'll learn from it and you'll keep moving forward.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I think another area where fear plays such a big role in all of this for everyone is fear of speaking up. I think that when it comes to this idea of breaking the bias, like you said, so much of the cumulative effect of why women are not equal to men in the workplace today is those little things. I mean, it's the daily, I forgot to put you on the meeting invite or gaslighting or all sorts of things. And every day, people see that happen and it's really easy to be fearful that if it's a leader that's doing that, oh, well, I can't say something because they're my superior, or I don't want to start anything, or let me just stay in my lane.

Sarah Nicastro: And the reality is we all play a part in making the progress we want to make. And yes, it can be very uncomfortable to have hard conversations. I can think back on times where I avoided them myself, but you know better, you do better. Right. And I think that's another area where people need to consider stepping outside of their comfort zone and helping keep the progress moving by addressing things like that when they see them.

Octavia Goredema: I agree. And everything you say is valid. It can be very difficult. In that moment, if there is someone more senior than you to use your voice in that way. And I've been in that situation, before I had my coaching company, I was employed. And I remember having to say to the CEO of the company where I worked, "Is there a reason why I wasn't included in that meeting?" I feel I should have been there and I would've liked to have been there. And this is the reason why. And I did end up receiving an apology, but that wasn't the immediate reaction. It came much later. You don't know what the response will be, but ideally your employer wants employees who are there to add value and to solve problems and to help do things better.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Octavia Goredema: And to help do things better. And so if you are using your voice to show where you add value or where things could be different or where things could be better, then you need to observe and then see what happens next.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Okay. All right Octavia. Any final thoughts, words of wisdom. What do you hope that people take away from this discussion?

Octavia Goredema: It's an ethos that underpins everything that I do. And that I open my book Prep, Push, Pivot with, which is knowing your worth matters, especially in the moments where your worth is not being reflected back at you. I think that is really important. And for employers recognize the worth of what women on your team and your future female hires will bring to the table. And it's, of course your worth is represented by what you earn, but it's more than just that. It's what you need to do your best work and what you need to thrive. And as individuals, what are the non-negotiables for us in our career and making sure that we are building careers that align with our goals and our values.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I have a special shirt on today. I don't know if you can see it says carry as you climb.

Octavia Goredema: I love that.

Sarah Nicastro: And it goes back to the point you made earlier, which is, as women, we have an obligation to help one another as well. Yes, all of the white men in senior leader positions need to really reflect on what their teams and organization looks like and how genuine they are about their desire to really progress related to this. But until we are at a point where these conversations become less necessary, we really have to help each other out and support one another, speak up on one another's behalfs, just really advocate for one another, lift each other up, all of those things.

Octavia Goredema: Paying it forward really matters. And it can be also in ways where we're not necessarily using our voice in front of others, but in terms of suggesting opportunities or resources to others. It can be in small ways or it can be in really impactful ways. Paying it forward is so important.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I think there's a real thing particularly because women are still at a disadvantage in the workplace. I think there can be a tendency towards the scarcity mindset and well, if I help her, then I will somehow disadvantage myself and we just have to move beyond that. I mean, we all need to be helping one another and you're never going to be disadvantaged by championing someone else.

Octavia Goredema: Absolutely. Yeah. I couldn't agree more.

Sarah Nicastro: All right. Tell folks where they can find Prep ... Oh goodness. Prep, Push, Pivot. Where can they find the book?

Octavia Goredema: Prep, Push, Pivot is available wherever you love to buy books. You'll be able to find it at your local bookstore or at your favorite online book retailer. And you can also go to my website, octaviagoredemago.com if you need more information.

Sarah Nicastro: Excellent. All right, Octavia, thank you so much for joining me today. I appreciate it.

Octavia Goredema: Oh, thank you, Sarah. It's great to be here.

Sarah Nicastro: You can find more by visiting us at futureoffieldservice.com. You can also find us on LinkedIn as well as Twitter @TheFutureofFS. The Future of Field Service podcast is published in partnership with IFS, you can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thank you for listening.

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March 2, 2022 | 26 Mins Read

The Future of Manufacturing

March 2, 2022 | 26 Mins Read

The Future of Manufacturing

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Sarah welcomes Jake Hall, Founder & Content Creator, The Manufacturing Millennial to discuss the key trend shaping the future of manufacturing, including automation, robotics, what new skills and roles are needed, and how companies will need to work to attract younger talent.

Sarah Nicastro: Welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. We are going to be talking a bit today about the future of manufacturing. I'm excited to be joined by Jake Hall, who is the founder and content creator at The Manufacturing Millennial. Jake, welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast.

Jake Hall: Thanks so much for having me, Sarah.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, thanks for being here. Okay, so before we dig in, we have a lot to cover, before we do that, tell our listeners a bit more about yourself.

Jake Hall: Yeah, absolutely. My background has always been in the world of manufacturing and automation. When I was a kid, I loved growing up playing with Legos, the mindset of building and creating. That just got me so excited. Fast forward years, I went to college and got a manufacturing engineering degree and a biomedical engineering degree. Fast forward 10 years later after that, and currently I'm a business development manager for a company called Feyen Zylstra. We're an industrial tech company that helps manufacturers modernize their existing systems and integrate new ones. At the same time, I have a personal brand called The Manufacturing Millennial, where I love to advocate manufacturing. I love to tell companies stories of what products and solutions they're bringing to the market that really solve a lot of problems that manufacturers are facing. And then talk about workforce, talk about skilled trades, and just a lot of great conversations around that.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I love it. We're not dissimilar, Jake, in what we do. It's exciting that our two worlds are colliding here. All right, awesome. There is a lot that I'm excited to pick your brain on. You cover a lot of the trends that are happening from a technology perspective in the manufacturing space. Let's start there, so anything that comes to mind for you. What are some of the most exciting trends that are happening in manufacturing that you think are really changing the game?

Jake Hall: Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk about why those trends exist. In manufacturing, manufacturing has always been viewed as an industry that's dark, dirty, and dangerous, right? It's the industry that your grandparents worked at and your parents never encouraged you to go into. Well, what's happening now in the manufacturing space is our industry is turning from a product-based industry to really a digital one. We're innovating a lot of ways that are leveraging new technologies like artificial intelligence, robotics, augmented reality, what we classify as the Fourth Industrial Revolution, Industry 4.0.

Jake Hall: And some of the really cool stuff that we're seeing is new technology that's being adapted by younger generations, that's being adapted by the millennials and the Gen Zs of the world, where we're taking product innovation that we've used a lot of times in our daily lives and then bringing them to manufacturing. Something as simple as digital work-based instructions, the manufacturing industry, when we're setting up a machine or doing a tool change over or setting up a new job, a lot of times we always had these paper notebooks that we turn to a page and we find, "Oh, page 53, this is my process." Well, instead of doing on that manual three-ring binder, we're using an app do. What's cool about this is by leveraging all these new technologies, we're making manufacturers smarter and more efficient within their daily tasks.

Jake Hall: But more importantly, we're attracting a future workforce in the manufacturing space that is critical right now. By 2028, so within five or six years, they're saying there's going to be somewhere between 2.4 to 2.8 million jobs unfulfilled in the manufacturing industry. A lot of that has to do with what we call The Silver Tsunami. It's the baby boomers that are going to be retiring in the next few years who've been in the industry for decades, who carry all those skills, who carries all that knowledge. There's going to be a massive labor shortage, and we're feeling it right now. I mean, manufacturers, their biggest struggles right now are supply chain issues and then essentially the same thing, the supply of labor. So by leveraging these new technologies, it's really making manufacturing setting because it's making them more efficient and it's making the industry more excitable for people to come and work in.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Way more appealing-

Jake Hall: Absolutely.

Sarah Nicastro: ... than our parents were maybe making it out to be, or then it was. Okay, if you think about some of the trends you mentioned, robotics, artificial intelligence, augmented reality, those sorts of things, what are some of the biggest ways you see manufacturing operations evolving? And what will that look like in, say, five years from now? I'm curious for you in your role, how widely adopted are some of those cutting-edge technologies and how much do you think that will expand over the next five years?

Jake Hall: Yeah, absolutely. How widely adopted, the answer is simply just not enough. For a long time, automation was viewed as a risk. Because with automation, becomes the skill and the knowledge of knowing what to automate the know-how of how to build systems or how to work with integrators to create those automation solutions. And then the third part is turning that capital investment into, really, an operational expense of how do you keep those investments running after the person who supplied those resources forward to you has left. When you look at the manufacturing industry, somewhere around 95 to 97% of manufacturers are small to medium-sized businesses, SMBs, SMS, there's different abbreviations, but that represents the majority of the manufacturing industry, is small-to medium-sized businesses, under 50 employees.

Jake Hall: Well, with a company that's under 50 employees, a lot of times the owner who's running that company has to worry about a lot more than just the automation of integrating a new robotic system, for example. Let's use a machining company as an example. So, Tim down the road has a machining company where he employs 20 workers. And those 20 workers are running 15 CNC machines on their floor making parts for a tier-three automotive company. Tim has a lot to worry about. He has to worry about scheduling. He has to worry about getting materials and battling the labor shortage, all that stuff. And all the people who currently work for him aren't necessarily engineers or robot programmers or all that stuff, so how can he leverage new technology but at the same time being a low cost entry point for him?

Jake Hall: Robotics is a fantastic example of that. Collaborative robots is this idea of industrial robots that have been around for decades. They first entered the automotive industry 40, 50 years ago, more than that. But collaborative robots are interesting because they've been viewed as not necessarily used as a collaborative space, but because it was very easy for first-time robot user to learn how to program a robot and set it up. Well, what this robot's doing is it's allowing a worker to not stand by a machine anymore and wait for that part to complete. A worker or a CNC person can then program that robot to then take parts in and out of a CNC machine autonomously. So now that one worker can now run four machines instead of just a single one.

Jake Hall: Because what's happening right now is Tom who's down the street, or Tom or Tim, whoever I use as an example, is also competing against Amazon, who just installed their brand new 600,000 square foot facility where they're paying 401(k), four weeks of benefit, flexible hours, all that stuff. He can't pay or be as competitive as one of the largest companies in the world, so how does he stay in business? Well, he leverages automation by reducing the risk of, really, of labor, of keeping talent inside of his area, where if he can't hire 20 machinists, he needs to find some way to stay in business. And he's going to use collaborative robots or automation or machine tending or a work sell, for example, to make his operations more efficient. That's-

Sarah Nicastro: Now... Sorry, go ahead.

Jake Hall: Yeah that's just an example of leveraging automation from a smaller scale.

Sarah Nicastro: Right. Now, the ultimate objective, though, is not for Tom, Tim or Tim, Tom to not hire anyone, right?

Jake Hall: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: That's where the collaborative word comes in, right? You're talking about tools and technologies that can assist the workforce to maximize their utilization, to make their jobs easier, to keep output high, those sorts of things, not the idea of completely replacing the machinists.

Jake Hall: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: Am I understanding that correctly?

Jake Hall: Absolutely. We want people to work with robots, not like robots. Those are two different things, right? If a person is doing this repetitive task over and over again, what value are they bringing? What is their purpose? What are they proud to go home and say they did at work when they go home for dinner that night or they're talking with family? If they're just doing the same thing over and over again, that's working like a robot. But if you can go and you can work with robots to make them do those boring, repetitive, a lot of times unsafe or high physical demanding jobs and have a robot do that instead and you're managing these robots, that's of value.

Sarah Nicastro: Right.

Jake Hall: Maybe several decades ago when the manufacturing in the US was struggling competing with a global economy where a company could go and get a product in China for pennies on the dollar compared to what they could get it in the US, yeah, manufacturers needed to reduce their cost as much as possible. But that time is changing where the cheap labor is gone. China, not to go off on other domestic countries, but China's actually integrating more robots than any other country in the world combined because they're taking their cheap labor force and they're making automation solutions because their middle class is growing dramatically. The same thing goes back to us where a lot of these companies are automating just for them to stay in business or for them to grow because they can't find the labor to actually grow their business. So, they're needing to automate to stay competitive.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I don't have any statistics on this, but I have to assume that just if you look at consumption, right, it's grown significantly, which means that scaling to meet demand with manpower versus technology is not sustainable, right? I mean, we can't just scale to meet growing, growing, growing demand. The reason I'm asking some of these questions, Jake, is in a lot of ways I cover... So even the manufacturers within our audience, we're typically talking about the aftermarket aspect and servicing and things like that. But a lot of the concepts are very similar so far in the sense of there's this almost fear among the workforce of automation when in reality there's no desire to replace the frontline workforce. There's a desire to evolve their role to be more value add, right?

Jake Hall: Absolutely.

Sarah Nicastro: And then the other point you made, which is small company, mid company, large company, what we find is these leaders who are overburdened with putting out fires to the point where something like this, that ultimately is going to help them significantly short term and long term, is just insurmountable because they don't have to think innovation because they're scrambling to do what they need to do in the day.

Jake Hall: Yeah, absolutely.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay, cool. If you had to pick one technology trend in manufacturing that you are most amped to track over the next five years, what would it be?

Jake Hall: The adaption of artificial intelligence within manufacturing. We're seeing it a lot within the warehouse and the logistics industry right now. There's a lot of companies that are out there leveraging artificial intelligence with robotics to do autonomous picking and material handling. I have a really good friend over at FedEx and he's responsible for adapting new technologies into the logistic systems to make them more efficient. Down in Memphis, he worked with the team to integrate robots that are handling literally millions of parcels a day that were once a heavy labor process, from like 3:00 AM to 7:00 AM or some crazy number in the middle of the night that no one wants to work, it's such a boring task, but someone had to do it. Well, they're leveraging artificial intelligence to autonomously find the parcel or the package or the bubble wrap that they're picking, a robot will pick it, separate it, and take these tasks that were once a very strenuous high turnover rate person, because no one wants to do the same thing of this over and over again... For those of you listening, I'm just throwing my hands back and forth like you're in a post office just throwing packages over the place.

Jake Hall: No one wants to do that. There's no value in that. There's no like, "Man, I'm so happy with my life I'm doing this right now." What they want to do is they want to take those tasks and give that to a person who can then say, "Hey, you're going to run four robots now. You're going to make sure they're running. If there's a question that a robot has, we're going to send you a notice and you're going to make a decision for the robot." There's value to that. With every robot that's being integrated, it's a responsibility of a manufacturer to educate their workforce who's there to reskill them with the tools that they need to create value back to the company. And I think that's the biggest thing I always get back from my audience is, "Well, automation's taking jobs or low skilled jobs." In a lot of areas, we're taking low skilled tasks and we're automating them, but it's a responsibility for the manufacturer to then take that person who does have a lot of knowledge of the processes and retool that person to then create value at a much higher, hopefully higher-paid, higher value-added level than they what they were doing before.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Okay. All right, let's shift gears and talk a little bit about the people part then. Okay, so we've talked about some of the trends. It would be cool to get maybe some stories from you, maybe some of the companies you've worked with that might be willing to share some of the advancements that they've made. I mean, it would be interesting to hear some of those applications. I was at an event for DHL a couple of years ago before COVID. It was at their innovation center here in the Americas and they had a picking robot set up and working. I mean, they had a lot of really cool things that they showed. They also did some virtual reality stuff. But that robot definitely stuck with me because they put it through the rigors, if you will, of some different jobs to show the scope of what it was able to do, and it was quite impressive. All right, so let's talk about the impact all of this has on people, okay?

Jake Hall: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Sarah Nicastro: And so, the first thing I want to talk about is how would you comfort an individual who has a career in manufacturing that has heard the first 10, 15 minutes of this conversation and has that immediate automation-is-going-to-take-all-the-jobs mentality?

Jake Hall: Well, automation's not going to take all the jobs because right now there's going to be 2.4 million unfulfilled jobs in manufacturing. Automation's never going to take jobs, it's going to fill the massive gap we have right now in manufacturing. And that's just because the growth of the industry, the growth of demand. When you're going to see a lot of reassuring happening here in America as a result of the pandemic really spiking that stuff, when people can't get their product off of a cargo ship, it really doesn't do great for them when, yeah, they might have saved 20 cents on the dollar by manufacturing it overseas, well, if they're not getting it, what's the point? Your 80 cents on the dollar isn't doing anything for you.

Jake Hall: So you're going to have an increased demand of localized manufacturing, domestic manufacturing here in America and domestic supply chains. So the person who's saying, "Well, automation is just going to take my job," automation is going to take jobs, but what we're going to see is you will then hopefully be moving up within the area to basically be reskilled in an area that's going to create more value. What I'm not saying is it's just one of those things that's just going to happen. In my mindset, you always need to keep learning. You always need to learn new things. If you are living at the status quo for 40 years not learning something new or learning a new skill, for me personally, that's pretty boring. It's your responsibility, I think, just as a human to continue to always learn and reeducate yourself with the changing times. So that would be my whole entire thing.

Jake Hall: And there are so many free ways for people to reskill themselves now than whatever before. In fact, you see a lot of people going back to community colleges right now for their second career in a lot of areas. They might have went to a four-year university and got trained in some... or got an education in some liberal arts degree. They couldn't find a job better than working at a coffee shop for five years, and they have $45,000 in student debt. Well, they need to find an industry that's hiring. Well, manufacturing's hiring at a great rate right now. So they go back in there, they get their apprentice program in robotic programming or welding or plumbing or HVAC, and now they're getting reskilled at the middle of their career, 30 and 40 years old. And now they have the opportunity to have a much more stable career that's going to continue to keep them successful and take care of them for many years to come.

Sarah Nicastro: You mentioned this a little bit, but there is a personal responsibility for people to upskill, reskill themselves, right, just to continue learning, right? Manufacturing or service or automation or not, I think collectively we are past an era of just complacency, right?

Jake Hall: Absolutely.

Sarah Nicastro: We are past the time of being able to show up to any job for 40 years in a row, punch in and punch out, and never give an increasing amount of value over that span of time. I just don't think that exists anymore. So, there's a personal responsibility there, but there's also a responsibility of the manufacturers themselves to make sure that they're planning on how to reskill and upscale. What I wanted to ask is, what are some of the areas when you think about these education paths and some of the skills that are going to be increasingly valuable in the coming years, what are some of the areas that come to mind would be applicable for people to consider evolving into?

Jake Hall: Yeah. I mean, with every robot that is put in place, you're going to have to have people who can manage those robots, people who can program those robots. With any level of automation, there's going to be people who need to be skilled in understanding what that data is, making decisions off of the information that you're being provided from an interconnected, smart manufacturing floor. But if people aren't in the technical side of things, you don't need to be an engineer to do stuff, if you're good with working with your hands and you're not necessarily the brain type but more the physical type, great, there's a lot of skilled trades out there like welding or plumbing or being a machinist who can just work with their hands or working in the construction industry as that becomes more modernized. It's one of those things where there's always going to be those circumstances, I recognize it, but what I don't want people to say is, "Oh, we're automating, and things are taking my jobs." It's no, you're just choosing not to create a better job for yourself. There's always the outliers, but the outliers do not match by any means the current audience of what is viewed in manufacturing.

Sarah Nicastro: Right. And so, there may be some incumbent employees that feel some emotion around all of this change, but on the flip side of that, as you mentioned at the beginning, this evolution and the way that the process is becoming more technologically advanced and more digital and more data centric creates a whole new appeal for people that are the next generation of-

Jake Hall: Absolutely.

Sarah Nicastro: ... workers. Let's shift gears and talk a little bit about that side of things. Obviously we've talked about a couple of the key elements. We're coming up against a 2.4 million employee gap, right?

Jake Hall: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Sarah Nicastro: We are coming out of a generation where this industry and other skilled trades were just sort of, "No, that's not the way you want to go. You want to go over here and get a four-year degree and do this path." So how do we bring this all together, right? How do we increase the appeal and appropriately evangelize the modernization of manufacturing? How do we let young folks know about the potential that this industry holds? How do companies find them? What are some of the elements here that you have thoughts on.

Jake Hall: Yeah, oh man, lots to cover in all those questions. Manufacturing is consistently innovating. As I mentioned before, with innovation comes new technology, with new technology comes the adaption of using that technology. The one thing that I can say is millennials and Gen Zs, we grew up with technology. We are not afraid to program things. We're not afraid to leverage technology to get us information or to teach us things. When we want to learn something new, we want to learn how to make a recipe or change the tire in a car or change the oil or how to fix an appliance in our house, we turned to video, we turned to YouTube. We are a new society of self-learning, self-teaching skills. 25, 20 years ago, if we wanted to know how to replace a component in our car, we had to go to AutoZone, pick up a owner's manual, and learn how to do something and find the correct page through the appendices.

Jake Hall: Well, now we just go on YouTube and type in "How to replace component on car," and you're going to get 45 videos. I think it's the exact same way when we look at manufacturing. When we want to change how we're running, we can adapt automation at a much higher comfort level than what we did before. And so that's one of those things that I always encourage with small to medium-sized manufacturers. Well, I don't know how to program a robot. I don't know how to program this. I don't know how to do this. You know who is willing to learn, who is learning to learn how to use new technology? Millennials and Gen Zs. Because we grew up with learning how to do all these different apps and programmings and all this stuff just naturally. For something that's very intimidating and difficult to an older person, it comes very easy to a younger person.

Jake Hall: I was actually talking to my wife earlier, it was either yesterday or today. My four-year-old daughter knows how to operate a TV remote better than what my dad does. So here's a four-year-old, who's relatively young but knows how to work an app or an iPad or a TV remote better than my dad who literally has been around than technology has been existing. That just shows the mindset of how younger generations can think around technology and adaption.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Jake Hall: I go back to manufacturers, what you view as a high risk or area of not understanding is completely different perspective than younger generations. Let's just say you're not in manufacturing, this is just a general person who's listening to this conversation, marketing or social media influence, you might find it very difficult to create posts on LinkedIn or social media, or film a video as a segmented expert talking about a topic. You as an older person might feel intimidated by that, but your college intern or the person you just hired out of college might say, "Oh yeah, I can totally do that. How many videos do you want a week?" And that's just -

Sarah Nicastro: Do you know how many TikTok followers I have?

Jake Hall: Yeah, exactly. But it's just one of those things as leverage your generational skillsets to what they're good at. And this new generation is very comfortable with technology and sharing and expressing more than any other ones. So, if you don't know how to do it, maybe your problem is not hiring or changing the mindset of getting the right people in to leverage those solutions and be innovative.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I agree with everything you've said. There's two challenges I see. One is organizations who have historically hired based on experience that are unsure at best or unwilling at worst, to change that to instead of looking for experience, they're looking for skills or aptitudes or abilities that they can allow to grow in the role that someone's taking. And then the second is on the flip side going back to the challenge we talked about earlier, which is how do we then have these opportunities hold appeal for the young workers that are the ones who could come in and learn on the fly and figure it out and do some of the things that the existing leadership is uncomfortable with?

Jake Hall: Yeah, so your first comment, what was the question of that that you're seeing as an issue?

Sarah Nicastro: Sorry. I'm notorious, Jake, for asking multiple questions at once. The first part is that companies are historically hiring on experience.

Jake Hall: Yes.

Sarah Nicastro: So they're only finding these people if they have five years of experience in X role rather than looking at the kind of generational aptitudes that you're bringing up, which is maybe they come from... I had a friend on the podcast a couple of weeks ago and he said they've started looking for people that worked at Chick-fil-A before because they're very organized, they're very good at customer service. He doesn't care if they have experience, he can bring them in, teach them what they need to know, and send them on their way. But historically, these organizations are just dead set on looking for X years of experience.

Jake Hall: Oh, absolutely. You always see those posts on social media like, "Hey, we need you to have a four-year degree plus five years of experience and a starting salary of $16 an hour." I think it goes back to a whole entire HR thing where there's a massive misconception of what you actually need versus what you're putting down on paper. Manufacturers, I know just with the industry that I am, need to realize that you aren't going to find your golden person to come work for you. You either needed two options. One is you need to take employees working within your company right now and retrain and reskill them with the talent that you need to make that happen, right?

Jake Hall: If you need a person who's sufficient in programming Rockwell Allen-Bradley PLCs, great, take your maintenance tech and start teaching him how to program Rockwell Allen-Bradley PLCs. That's like the first thing. If you are needing skills but you're not investing in your employees for them to get those skills, that's a huge red flag on your own because you're not creating an opportunity to retrain and then retain your employees. Because if another company is saying, "Hey, your experience, you're working in the industry, don't worry if you don't have the skill, we'll come and hire you, we have a training program to make that happen." Well, the person's going to jump ship and go over there because they're saying, "This company's going to invest in my career beyond just what I'm doing now." And that's a huge thing that millennials and Gen Zs look at is, "It's not just what am I doing now, what are you going to do to prepare me for the future?"

Jake Hall: And then going back to the whole entire hiring thing, I think it just goes back to with the 2.4 million unfulfilled jobs that are going to be in manufacturing, you just simply need to hire people and then teach them what they need along the way. Stop always looking for the best person and then just trying to buy them with your money. Because if your culture isn't a hireable culture, you will lose people over time. Because eventually there will be another company that's willing to pay just as much as you are, but also is willing to invest in them beyond just a monetary value.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Jake Hall: All companies need to look at it's not just about how much you pay them, it's about how do you invest in them.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Now, what about how we attract young people to the industry?

Jake Hall: Yeah. Within younger generations, I go to colleges and I advise engineering students when they're graduating and they're looking at jobs and they say, "Hey, who is my boss? And who would I work for? And what did they do five years ago?" Because I always want know, is the person who I'm going to work for, have they been in that position for five years? Because a lot of times, if it's a position and you're working for someone in a department or a category, the person you're working for probably would be the next step in your own promotion. And if that person's been doing that exact same job for 25 years, you're going to get a very quick idea of, am I going to move up in that company or not? Versus if your current manager has only been there for 18 months because he was in your position 18 months ago, and to say, "Hey, maybe they're growing a lot. Or maybe there's a lot of turnover within the company."

Jake Hall: I always like to know within a hiring process is, who is my manager? How long have they been there for? And then what is the opportunity for growth? I think the manufacturers as well need to understand, their interview is their showcase. If they're not showing you how they're investing in you or how they're investing in new technology, they're not being attractive. If you're going in there and you're trying to hire someone and say, "Oh yeah, we've been doing the exact same thing for 20 years," there's no opportunity for that person within that company. They're going to look for somewhere else who say, "Oh yeah, we've added three new automation cells in the past six months and we want you to help learn how to run those." There's opportunity there because they're investing in something new for growth. If you're not adapting new innovation solutions, then you're not going to attract the people to come work for you either.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Now, can you talk a little bit about the role social media can play in bridging this gap, changing the perceptions of what manufacturing is, helping organizations sell the story of why someone would want to come work for their company? I know you're a big proponent of the power of social media. I mean, at least my perception is that it's not something that's broadly utilized by manufacturers. What are your thoughts on the role that could play in helping them find more talent?

Jake Hall: Like we talked about originally, right, manufacturing is an industry that's viewed as a dark, dirty, dangerous, dull environment, the four Ds. Social media is the way to begin to share the innovation that's happening in the manufacturing industry to your future workforce, which is millennials and Gen Zs who leverage social media to get their information. They don't go on websites anymore to look at stuff, they're on social media to learn about new solutions. You as a manufacturer need to begin to create content on social media to attract your future workforce.

Jake Hall: But also, for the workforce that's already in place that's making decisions, right, for a lot of manufacturing companies, engineers who want to learn about a new product don't necessarily call the sales rep anymore to find out information, they'll go on YouTube and they'll learn what that product is. I think YouTube's probably one of the biggest source for design engineers and controls engineers because if they run across an error within a PLC they want to learn, I bet you, they're going to go on YouTube and type in that error sooner than they're going to go to that manufacturer's website and look in their instructions or their reference articles, right?

Jake Hall: So the exact same thing with manufacturers need to leverage social media as just an information platform beyond just this idea of thinking it's just fancy videos. It's an educational source as well. I view social media as an educational source for me to educate the existing workforce but also the future workforce on all the cool technology and innovation that's making manufacturing great.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jake Hall: And that's why social media should be leveraged as well. It's not about just attracting your future workforce, it's about sharing the innovation that you're doing to address the problems that we're facing right now in the industry. And do that in a way that's showing how you're solving a problem and not just how you're selling a product.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. I love it. All right, Jake, is there anything we have not gotten to that we should touch on today?

Jake Hall: No. I would just say the last thing would be is if you are a company, understand that it's your responsibility to invest in your future workforce and invest in the skills and the trades that need to happen. In this case, if you're a manufacturer, what are you doing to invest in your local community colleges or universities or career tech programs to make sure the kids who are graduating are applied with the correct skills that make them hireable. If you're a manufacturer and saying, "Oh, well, the kids graduating from a local college and university don't have the skills that they need to make them hireable and we need to go hire someone else," then that's your own fault and failure because you had the opportunity to impact that program, to say, "You know what? I need you to have these classes and these subjects taught in your college because that's what we need right now in the industry." Right?

Jake Hall: The college, university should be designed around to prepare people for their future career. But if there's a mismatch of people graduating, not being prepared to enter the workforce because they don't have the skills, we're going to fix that. I think the best way is for manufacturers and local companies to invest locally in their educational programs, and not just universities, your two-year colleges and apprentice programs as well, to say, "You know what? We're going to invest in them from a monetary impact but also from an advising and a teaching impact as well." And that's what I would encourage manufacturers and companies to do.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I mean, there's just far more responsibility today than there was 5, 10 years ago to create the talent you need. You can't just sit back and wait for it to come to you. I mean, it's not happening. I like the point you may earlier too, I mean, you mentioned that you go and speak at some of these colleges and schools and universities. That's another really good opportunity. The earlier organizations can plant the seed of the potential in the industry and the innovation in the industry and the career opportunities that exist, the better chance you have of getting someone's attention before they've already chose another path for themselves. So that's really important as well. All right, cool, Jake. Tell our listeners where they can follow The Manufacturing Millennial.

Jake Hall: Yeah. The best place is just to go on LinkedIn and search Jake Hall, or just go on Google and just literally type out "The Manufacturing Millennial." I probably will come up in all the top searches right away. But I'm on all social media platforms. LinkedIn is my main platform, but I'm on Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, all social media platforms. And if you have any questions as well, you can email me to directly, and that's Jake@themanufacturingmillennial.com.

Sarah Nicastro: Awesome. All right, Jake, well, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate it.

Jake Hall: My pleasure. Thanks so much, Sarah.

Sarah Nicastro: You can find more at futureoffieldservice.com. You can also find us on LinkedIn as well as Twitter, @TheFutureOfFS. The Future of Field Service podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thank you for listening.

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Meeting the Demands of Modern Leadership with James Mylett, Part 2

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In part two of this two-part deep dive on leadership with James Mylett, SVP, U.S. Digital Buildings at Schneider Electric, Sarah and James talk about additional leadership characteristics that prove impactful today and James shares his words of wisdoms for tenured leaders looking for fresh inspiration as well as new leaders just starting out.

This is part two in a two-part episode with James Mylett, Senior Vice President for U.S. Digital Buildings at Schneider Electric. If you missed part one, you can listen here. 

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Now, I think another reason that you are well respected as a leader is you're very vocal about appreciating your team, but not just your team of leaders the entire team to the frontline, and their role, and their impact on your customers and the business. And to your point the difference they are making every day. I know we were both at the service council conference in the fall of last year. And you made a statement there that make sure we're appreciating these people and vocalizing that. And I know you invest a lot of your time in spending time with the frontline workforce and understanding what their reality looks like day to day. Let's talk about the benefit of doing that a bit.

James Mylett: I think the customer's experience is going to be framed up by the interaction they have with our frontline employee. So when you think about whether it's the person that's helping with the coordination of the work, the follow-up on the billing, the actual work being done on site, the salesperson going out there. Those moments of truth is what frames up the experience, just like when you go to Starbucks. If you've got an employee that's friendly and engaged and all that, but you have a different experience than the alternative. So I think for us, it's important that when we put our front line out in front of the customers that they're in the right state of mind, and they feel genuinely appreciated in what they're doing. And they understand how, what they're doing is helping us.

James Mylett: I was in New York City a couple weeks back and had a chance to meet with the head of security for one of the most iconic buildings in the U.S. let alone in the city. And I was expecting to talk about technology, facial recognition, all this stuff. No, all he wanted to talk about was Geo and how Geo would fix things on a Sunday before anybody even knew they had a problem. He got an alert about it. He was in, he did it remotely. He came in and he just appreciated so much this frontline employees, personal commitment to making a difference for them.

James Mylett: In order for us to sustain that, we have to have a personal commitment to helping to clear a path for people like Geo to get their job done in a way that's meaningful for them so. I haven't forgotten what it was like so it's been a long time. But I've got a long list of stories I could tell that just you shake your head at some of the situations that frontline employees get put in some days. So I haven't forgotten that. I think the comment I made at the conferences we were leaving was relative to the airline industry and we're all flying back, don't forget what those folks are going through as they're trying to help us get home safely. And the interactions that some people are creating for them that makes their lives miserable. It doesn't take them to be kind to somebody so.

Sarah Nicastro: Absolutely. Okay. We have quite a bit more to get through here so, all right. So willingness to take risks.

James Mylett: Yeah. Don't bet the franchise, that's one lesson I learned from a CEO I worked for. And in one of the recent one that came up to me is try to go through two-way doors. So go take a risk, but don't take a risk in a way that's a one-way door where there's no way back. And I'm not a fan of burning the bridge behind me so that there's no path, but the path forward because the impact to the organization is huge. But part of what I've tried to do here in this role is to create more space for my people to take risks. We have a core value called data disrupt that talks a lot about this specific topic. So I'm trying to create experiences with my team to where they know that because of the experience, they know that they have an opportunity to go take those risks.

James Mylett: An example I point to is one of our leaders decided that we wanted to open up a bigger operation in the city of Nashville. And so, I looked at all the potential cities we could be going to and I'm like, "Why Nashville? It doesn't make any sense. We should go someplace else." So I wasn't a supporter at first. I gave them a homework assignment to go get me the data, trust in God everybody else brings me data. So I had them bring me the data and they proved the case out. I still wasn't bought in. And frankly I wasn't bought in, but I gave them the runway to go do it and they crushed it.

James Mylett: They doubled the business, they doubled it again and they were on this unbelievable trajectory of taking market share out there. And had I not been willing to take that move to create space for them, we never would've got the benefit. So I think it's for a leader it's getting more comfortable being uncomfortable and trusting people more and not building out an organization of helicopter parents to where people don't feel like there's an army that's hovering over them all the time to check on what they're doing so.

Sarah Nicastro: Which, I'm mean really is another element of more modern leadership philosophy. You don't have to have your hands in everything. You said you weren't really sold, but you let them do it anyway because they had conviction and you believed in them. I think we talked the first characteristic we talked about as we resilient. And I think to some degree, if you want to build resilience in a team, letting them know it's okay to fail helps them be resilient. If they have this fear of failure, and obviously these folks can fail. But I'm just saying your willingness to let people take chances lets them know that they can make missteps and course correct. And that fuels that sense of resilience instead of having this fear-based culture where then people don't want to try anything new, or if they try and it doesn't go well, they just want to quit. Because they don't understand that that's all part of the game.

James Mylett: Yeah. It's a storytelling happens after the failure that drives the belief system. What happened to that team that didn't do what we expected them to do? How did we as leaders capture that? Did we treat it as a learning opportunity to get better or was it punitive? Whatever we do is going to drive the belief system for the organization, and that's going to determine how people act after the fact so, yeah. Trust comes in two flavors, character and competency. If you're on my team, it's because I trust your character. The competency thing, it just depends on the assignment.

James Mylett: And we're going to continue to evolve skillsets, all of us continue overall our skillset so the competency continues to go up. But yeah, I do. I trust my team. Early in the year, we were struggling with what our sales forecast was going to be. And my sales leader was putting up a number that I was struggling. I wasn't sure we were going to get there. And I was like, "You sure you want to put that number out?" And she said, "I wouldn't be against this team." And it’s just a comment that stuck with me that I haven't forgotten, and I agree with her. I wouldn't bet against this team.

Sarah Nicastro: And how often do you have a leader are saying, you're saying are you sure? And she's saying yeah, no, we should go with this. Usually it's the other way around, they're trying to hedge bets or present a different case, so I think that's great. James, do you have a hard stop?

Sarah Nicastro: The next characteristic, and you mentioned this in your comments trust in God, but everyone else bring me the data, so analytical. But there's a balance here because you just said in that example, you're analytical and you wanted the data. But then when you aren't reconciled with that, you're still willing to bring these other characteristics into play. So trust in your team and the willingness to take risks. What role does being analytical play in all of this though?

James Mylett: I want to make sure that our team is focused on root cause analysis for problem solving. And so, like most organizations when you think about a problem, everybody wants to go to ideation, let's go solve and we spend not enough time defining what the problem is and then doing the root cause analysis and we've got brilliant people. Every organization I work with is popular, brilliant people and you get in a room and God help us if there's a whiteboard, next thing you know you've got all these great ideas up there and then there's a program that gets deployed. And so, my bias is to start at the problem or start with the customer and work backwards from that and put a solution in place that's supported with data. That'll really move the needle because you know that that's the root cause for the problem.

James Mylett: What I've experienced along the way is you get these group things, and next thing you know there's a hammer that gets developed and then leadership takes the organization on a scavenger hunt for nails. Here's a hammer, go find a nail. And our interactions with customers change because it's no longer about helping them solve problems, it's about hey, I've got this hammer and I need nails, do you have one? And it's not a healthy environment. It's tough for, no argument about that. It's a lot of fun doing ideation, the brainstorming, all that.

James Mylett: It takes hard work to really dig in and to get the root cause. And it takes courage to face into the data when it doesn't support what you thought the root cause was, and that happens a lot. And it happens to me a lot when you get into the data. Because I've got my mind made up that we should be moving in this direction but time out, let's go do the data. And the data comes back and it doesn't support. You know what? As the leader, what I wanted us to do, what do you do at that point? Do you rationalize the way the data or do you trust your team? And follow what the data is saying. So that's my bias. The challenge is you don't want to micromanage the data. You don't want to get paralyzed by the data, but it has to have role in the conversation.

Sarah Nicastro: And I mean, in the example you gave about Nashville, it doesn't have to be the be-all and end-all. It's part of the consideration. It's an important piece of the puzzle, but sometimes you might choose to take a risk against the data or sometimes you might choose to wait that differently in your decision than other times. I do like the point though, that you're not just talking about data for data sake, you're talking about this idea of root cause analysis and understanding what you really need to be investing time and energy in. And I think that's the best use and maybe underused fit for data in terms of we're not just talking about measuring output or measuring internal KPIs. We're talking about understanding the root cause of issues and opportunities and using that to guide a path forward.

James Mylett: Yeah. What's the problem you solve is probably one of the best questions you could have in your arsenal tech ask, is people to bring ideas forward. It's a simple question. What's the problem we're trying to solve? It comes back.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Simple question that doesn't get asked enough. So the next characteristic is empathy.

James Mylett: Yep. I believe there's a difference between empathy and sympathy, and it's a line that is a leader you have to be able to walk effectively. As we're dealing with it like we talked about the vaccine issue, as we were navigating through that internally, the government had issued this mandate that, if you want to continue to do business you had to be in compliance. And when you run the math on that, it's a very simple decision. When you look at the amount of business that any organization might be doing with the government against the loss, for some companies it could be crippling. Put them out of business. So from a math standpoint, it gets to be simple on that front. Look at the people impact of it, not as simple.

James Mylett: And for a lot of organization, when you look at the population of people that have been vaccinated, depending on the state you're in whether it's 30% on vaccinated or 40% on vaccinated, apply that to the population of the team you might be leading, that's a big number that you put at risk. So you get into this, but at the end of the day for big companies that are doing a lot of work with the government, the map made sense to go forward with decisions to comply with the mandate.

James Mylett: It doesn't change the fact that there are individuals that have been part of the family that have made a personal decision that we should respect and empathize with and keep that at the forefront of the way that you handle that situation as people decide to exit an organization. And not everybody gets that. You can get in a room, looking at spreadsheets and convince yourself that this is just very simple. Boom, it's done, move. But I think if you lose sight of the impact that the individual might not change your decision because you've got a business to run. But the way that you do that it will communicate to the organization who we are as a company.

James Mylett: I think when you put anything under stress, the characteristics of it come out and you get in these situations, characteristics of organizations rise to the top and become very, very visible. It's a moment of truth and we're fortunate enough to have a very clearly articulated set of core values. And it becomes a touchstone for us, as we start thinking about how to handle any situation, consistent with core values. So when we come out this thing, we're better for it, right?

Sarah Nicastro: Right.

James Mylett: It tests the team, it made the team better. And we didn't lose ourselves along the way, both as an organization and individually as leaders. I've had conversations with leaders that have gotten to that point where I'm listening to what they're talking about and that's not the person that I know, it's not who they're. And it's a reflection point where they've lost themselves and they have to force them.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. All right. A couple more are ambitiousness. So you said there should be a healthy distance between where we are and where we aspire to be.

James Mylett: Yeah. So I'm fan of the Valvano speech, where I was, where I am and where I'm going that's what dynamic. We use the ocean planning process here which is its pretty elaborate process. It's got this thing called an X matrix and a bowler. But the simple version of it is what we do is we do gap closure analysis. So we look at what best in class performance is on any metric. And we look at where we are, where we were and how do I just get 30% better than where I am? I'm not going to get to there, but can I get 30% better than where I am? And if I did, what would that be worth? On any particular metric, whether it's recognition, safety performance, employee turnover, customer set.

James Mylett: How do I get 30% better to whatever the best in class is in the metric layout? What we try to do is set those aspirational targets to where we know we're stretching ourselves enough. And we use a simple color coding, where if I'm on the target that I said at screen, if I'm worse than I was last year, it's red. And if I'm better than I was last year, even if I'm not to the target it's yellow. And a successful scorecard doesn't have any red in it, it has a healthy mixture of yellow and green. That's a hard calibration for teams that they look at that and they want everything green. And the thing we've learned especially this past year is if everything's green, we haven't been aspirational enough.

James Mylett: If you get a dose of yellow and green, we got better at everything. So here's where I was, here's where I am, everything has moved forward, that's a successful year because we continue to evolve the organization in the right direction. But it is, it makes for fun conversations. My belief and my experience has been that most of the leaders that I've worked with are exponentially better than what they give themselves credit for. Most of the teams that I've been involved with are exponentially better than what they give themselves credit for. And when you take the time to reflect back on what you've already done as a team, or as an individual, it's surprising when you think of inventory, progress.

Sarah Nicastro: I think too, there's people for whom this drive, this aspirational drive is just more natural than others. Doesn't mean people that aren't as hungry for it, can't make that progress and be aspirational. But I think it's just, it's more innate in some folks. But I do think there's this element of connection between some of the leadership traits we're talking about today and aspiration because in a more traditional leadership model, again, it celebrates the intelligence, the capabilities, the results of the people at the very top without a lot of credit to those on the teams and on the front line.

Sarah Nicastro: And I think the more that we evolve into this more modern management mentality where we're celebrating the contributions of the team, and we're considering the role of the frontline and we're being more empathetic, I think it creates more ambition. Because to your point, people are connected to that purpose, they're connected to the individual role they play in a big picture of a company that within the culture cares about everyone. And I think that causes people to be more aspirational instead of just more complacent, or more disconnected or disassociated, those values are something you can use to connect people. Like you said earlier, get the buy-in and that creates more aspiration within the team.

James Mylett: Yeah. It's cultural. When I think about culture for me I go back to the Oz Principle stuff and it's all about creating experiences that shift the belief system that get people to act in a different way tomorrow than they're acting today, that delivers the result that we're looking for. It's very simple model. So as the leader, what are the experiences that I'm creating and are they consistent with the belief system that the organization will need to hold in order for us to move in the direction we want to move? On any topic, whether it's diversity and inclusion, customer satisfaction, retention, hyper growth, all those key things that we talk about the model applies for all those. I think being purposeful about the experiences makes a big difference for us.

James Mylett: I get a report out every month, the end of every month on our net satisfaction scores for the whole organization. And my exec assistant goes through and teases out all the nines and tens that we've got, and we've got a recognition portal here that we use. And once a month I see everybody that got a nine and a 10 and I recognize everybody on the team. If nothing else, just to let them know that I see what they're doing, and I appreciate it. And again, back when I was a frontline technician if I was getting a note from the president of the division or senior vice president, it made a difference. And so, if even it's not me if it's just a title, it makes a difference to people. I think we underestimate that sometimes when we get to these positions, just the impact that we have on lifting people up.

Sarah Nicastro: All right. Last question on the traits and then just a couple things to wrap up. So authenticity is the last trait that I have on the list. And what is it that you think makes a leader authentic? You know that feeling you get when you're engaging with someone where they either are, or they aren't. And I think it's something people get a sense for so quickly, and that doesn't mean it can't change, but it's just something that you get a very initial impression from someone when you engage with them that they're either very authentic or, eh. What do you think that is?

James Mylett: I think agenda makes a difference. My agenda is to help teams win and to help people who want to get better, get better. That's simple as that. I think the light went on for me back in 2004 I was in New Orleans leading a bit business and got challenged by the mayor to get involved in the community, so I went and signed up with the school district there to do some stuff. And I got invited to do a leadership conference at Frederick Douglass High School in the inner-city. And one of the things they wanted me to do was to bring my quote that represented who I was. And so, the reflex was be true to yourself. What I didn't know was who that was attributed to so I looked it up in crazy moment, Frederick Douglas so.

Sarah Nicastro: What are the chances?

James Mylett: Serendipity moment for me. And the more I kind of reflected on that, I think that's been my guidepost along the way, and probably even more so since that light went on for me, and I think that sets the stage for the authenticity piece of it. I think the imposter syndrome piece that I talked about earlier. And as I work with some of the resource group, they talk about code switching and that whole piece. I think there's some of those things that you have to navigate through on that path. But I think at its core, it's being comfortable enough with the eye, with who you are, to where you can bring the best version of yourself into any situation.

James Mylett: The key is, are you a part of an organization that is willing to create an environment to where you can do that? And I think as we all talk about the war for talent, as people get experiences with organizations or see game film on organizations that are doing that, that allow them to be their best version of themselves there, and to be their genuine self there, the tolerance level for the environment that they might be in that's not that goes way down. And it's just like I always say that none of us realized how miserable yellow cab ride was until Uber came along, we just kind of went along, right?

Sarah Nicastro: Dealt with it.

James Mylett: Then all of a sudden it changed. Well, I think is organizations evolve. And we're more purposeful about creating these environments and people see it, tolerance level changes. I think progressive organizations, it's going to be a competitive advantage.

Sarah Nicastro: Absolutely. All right. So we've talked through these trades, you talked a little bit about you personally have evolved your belief and your methodologies, and the way you lead. Are there any practices, resources that you would give in terms of how you do that? How do you continue personally to evolve and grow and educate yourself and change as a person and a leader versus just sitting still?

James Mylett: I do a lot of mentoring. That's probably the thing that's top of mind. And I tell the folks I work with that I get more out of it than I think they do. Because I get insight into what's driving them, what's motivating them, what's demotivating them. What is it that we're doing that's making a difference that's resonating? Where are we missing the mark? Where do we think we're moving the needle and we're really not? What's important? And all of those things, that whole inventory that I just rattled off, what I'm experiencing today is different than what I would've experienced 20 years ago or 10 years. I think as a leader, getting that insight, going close to where the front line is puts you in a better position to make decisions about where you go forward. 

Sarah Nicastro: No, I think I shouldn't be surprised by that answer because it's just very representative of you as a person, meaning you're not just picking up a book and all of a sudden it's changing you. Not that I'm saying you haven't read good books, I'm sure you have. But the real change, the real perspective for you is coming from that engagement and those conversations and being hands on and being personally invested. And I think that's actually really cool.

Sarah Nicastro: All right. Two final questions. One is, so what advice would you give a peer who has committed to improving and evolving their own leadership style?

James Mylett: I think for me take taking inventory of where you've been and where you want to get to is a good starting point. When we talk about leadership style, it's having clarity around what you want that to be, and what you want it to represent. Excuse me. Otherwise, it's difficult to understand whether or not you're making progress. I think when we talk about collaboration for example, it's something that's top of mind for all of us as we think about expanding out into the industry and creating new relationships. What are the specific skillsets that I can be developing to be more effective on that front would be part of it.

Sarah Nicastro: Last question is what advice would you give a brand new leader who's just starting out? So looking back on your own journey, what words of wisdom would you share?

James Mylett: I think if I had it to do over again, so let me come at it from that perspective. When I look at the investments I made in my personal development to become the best technician I could be, it's nonstop. I was reading all the time, I was getting on the right assignments, all that stuff. And that opened the door for me to move into sales and then into management. My early stages of management, I didn't make that same investment in me. And I didn't recognize that there was a whole new set of skills that I needed to go develop.

James Mylett: There were attributes that I had built out in the prior roles that put me in a position where I was ready for the first leadership role, but there was a whole different set of skill sets that needed to be built out for this new role that early on I didn't recognize that. So the advice I would give people is to recognize that you've just promoted yourself into a new position, a new journey for yourself personally. Get the inventory of the skillsets that are going to be required in order for you to excel at this new position, and then go put yourself on a learning path to get those acquired built out.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, I think that's good advice. It echoes the point you made earlier when we were talking about having hard conversations and the culture of wanting to hold each other accountable, and things like that. And you said, "We have to understand as a company, have we invested in the skills for our leaders to do this?" And so, it's a very two-pronged thing. I think it's great when someone has the personal recognition and takes the initiative to continue their own journey of self-improvement.

Sarah Nicastro: But on the other end companies have a responsibility to invest in the skills of their leaders as well. And I think sometimes what happens is companies promote to a certain level and then that just stops. And there's a statistic I read not too, too long ago. I think it's like 70% of companies don't invest in leadership training and development because it's just assumed that by the time someone gets to a point of being a leader, they know it all or something. I don't know. But the idea that that being proactive as an organization as well of the continual learning is equally important so I think that - 

James Mylett:... individual contributor positions. There's so many certifications that people have to have to work on certain systems and all that type of stuff. But then we promote people to a manager and we don't think that there needs to be same level of certification, so we just assume. And so, for an individual, one of the things to recognize is your talent is part of what got you to the position you're in. Your success going forward is going to be on whether or not you build out the talent to become these overarching skillsets that you have, but the talent will only take you so far. The place where I see leaders derail most frequently is when they get to a position where they're managing other managers because, and let's take sales for example.

James Mylett: Let's say I'm a top sales person, hit my quota, blow it out of the water every year. Next thing you know, somebody tasks me on a shoulder, you should be a sales manager. Great, got a big title, just got promoted. And I don't invest in being a good sales manager. What I'm doing is I'm helping everybody on my team close deals because I'm unbelievable at it. Next thing you know, the performance of the team goes through the roof because the closer is in there helping to bring in these jobs.

James Mylett: I get tapped on the shoulder again. You're a great manager, now let's have you manage all the sales managers. I'm done because I never built the skill sets that I'm going to need to manage other managers as I go forward. And it's the highest point of derailing in careers is that manager of manager layer and root on that is we don't spend enough time building out the skill sets along the way. And so again, another piece of advice going back, if I could do it over again, is at each one of those turns in my own personal leadership pipeline is calling a timeout, really doing the inventory of okay, now I'm managing other managers. Now I'm managing an enterprise. What am I going to need to go here?

James Mylett: I was managing a region 25 branches at one point and it was a couple 100 million. I did the market analysis and if we got the 10% market share, we would've been a billion dollar business. So I called my coach to come and spend some time with me and he wanted to know what's the topic? I said, "Well, I got a $300 million business, I want to take it to a billion? I think I can get there. I have no idea how to manage a billion dollar business." I don't know what that looks like. And I don't want to be the person who builds something that they can't run. Because I didn't grow as fast as the business grew. At that point, the lights had gone on for me to where I was at least I had to confidence level to where I could take it from X to Y by when, but I had the awareness that, that when job is different than the X job. And so, I need to get the work on building out version 8.0 of me.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I love that. I think just in summary, there's a couple points that I just I want to touch back on. And the first is, you said early on, the pace of change today is incredibly rapid. And so, if leaders aren't evolving you're just, you're making yourself irrelevant. It's really not an option at this point. You need to be investing in yourself and expanding horizons and looking for different sources of inspiration and educating yourself. And like you said, mentoring has been a great source of understanding what's needed today, or do you have your own mentors or a coach or whatever those tools are, just the understanding that it's necessary.

Sarah Nicastro: I think the second thing is keeping the eye on not just the short term but the long term. All too often, I think leaders that have that recognition have great intentions, but then they're so overcome by the day to day demands of the business that they're not strict enough about taking the time to invest in themselves, to make themselves better in the longer term. I think you also mentioned that long term view being important. I think that applies not only to the business, but to the individual in this sense of, you have to figure out a way to create the time, and effort, and space to work on yourself. So that to your point, when you take the business from here to here, you're ready to continue making an impact.

James Mylett: Larry Levin wrote a book called Top Teaming. And in it he talks about how leaders have to find the right balance between the now the new and the next. And they always have working on that. But the thing that's changed is change speed. To be sure just a couple of quick stats with you so. When you think about cars, it took 62 years for cars to get to 50 million users. It took credit cards 28 years to get to 50 million, debit cards 12 years, PayPal five years, and then Pokemon GO got to 50 million users in 19 days.

Sarah Nicastro: Wow.

James Mylett: Think about that change. And when you're working with team members who grew up in a world of Pokemon GO that went in 50 million in 19 days, it's a very different perspective about how fast things should move than folks that grew up when we were talking about whether or not ATMs were safe or debit card or virtual bank. Think about all that change in just how fast it's moving today. It's dramatically different. And so, we have to adjust our leadership style. We have to adjust the environments that we're creating, otherwise we're not going to attract and retain the talent that's going to be needed to win in these new markets.

Sarah Nicastro: Yes. I love it. James, thank you so much. You've been very generous with your time. I appreciate it. I'm so happy to have you on and have you share some of your story with us, so thank you very much for being here.

James Mylett: I appreciate the invite. Always a pleasure.

Sarah Nicastro: Yes. You can learn more by visiting us at futureoffieldservice.com. You can also find us on LinkedIn as well as Twitter @TheFutureOfFS. The Future of Field Service podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thank you for listening. 

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February 16, 2022 | 30 Mins Read

How Shannon Tymosko is Taking the Skilled Trades by Storm

February 16, 2022 | 30 Mins Read

How Shannon Tymosko is Taking the Skilled Trades by Storm

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Sarah sits down with the guest start of our 150th episode, Shannon Tymosko, for a discussion around why and how Shannon decided to pivot at age 29 into a career in the skilled trades as an electrician. Shannon shares her story, discusses what makes the trades appealing but what prohibits greater diversity, and points to what must change to increase interest in trade careers.

Sarah Nicastro: Welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. I'm super excited to be celebrating our 150th episode today by welcoming a special guest, Shannon Tymosko. We're going to talk today about how Shannon has taken the skilled trades by storm, as she made a big pivot in her career at age 29. So Shannon, welcome to Future of Field Service podcast.

Shannon Tymosko: Thank you so much for having me. I'm very blessed to always share my story and hope to inspire or change a few minds.

Sarah Nicastro: Yes, I'm so glad you're here. I was inspired by your story myself, and I'm excited to share it with our audience.

Shannon Tymosko: Thank you.

Sarah Nicastro: Now, your official title is Apprentice Electrician, right?

Shannon Tymosko: Yep. That's my official work title. Yep.

Sarah Nicastro: And what is your chapter?

Shannon Tymosko: IBEW Local 105 Hamilton.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. And you are also, as we were just chatting about before we started, you've become quite an advocate for the skilled trades and have done a ton of interviews and public speaking and are doing a lot to really educate and advocate for the opportunities that exist for others, which is really cool.

Shannon Tymosko: I try my best. Originally I went to school for child and youth work and then I found those passion for the skilled trades and somehow I've been able to take those two passions, overlap them and create this advocate position. I don't know if it's a real ... is it a position? But it's just nice to be able to inspire some people and hopefully people can live through my experiences and I can help them start their own journey.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Well, we talk quite a bit on this podcast about how the organizations in the various industries that we reach are looking for ways to attract different people to the industry. And so I think that the advocate position is important because that's what starts to spread awareness of what some of the opportunities are. It starts to break down the maybe some of the misperceptions that exist, those sorts of things. So I think it's a really important role.

Shannon Tymosko: 100%. If you can see it, you can be it. That's what I keep saying. Right? How often do we see celebrities more than we see anything else as children? We see Disney princesses, but do we see skilled trades workers? Do we see ladies as skilled trades workers? And so how do we believe we can do something that unless we even know it exists?

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Yeah. All right. So let's start with 2017, you are 29 and all of a sudden you decided ... well, maybe not all of a sudden, but you decided you were ready for a change. So tell us a little bit about your journey up to that point. So what were you doing before this big change?

Shannon Tymosko: Well, I'm 33 years of age. So this is not my first, second. I think it's more my fourth career at this point. I did do the typical go to school route. And originally I picked accounting first. I didn't like accounting. I spent a year exploring something, and then I transferred to child youth work, which I found to love. And this is where I found my passion for people, my passion for mental health, change, growth, development, these kinds of things. And then I did work in the field for a while as a child youth worker, I worked at a shelter for homeless youth, one of my favorite jobs. It's just not one of those jobs that I like to say allow you to thrive. You just survive. Especially being a single person on a single income in the GTA, or greater Toronto area, I should say.

Shannon Tymosko: And so I was really struggling, slowly going into debt. And so I had to maintain my college job, not one that I picked. It was just default. I worked at a financial institution. I worked there throughout my entire 20s, nine years. And by the end of it, I only worked ... I only made $20 an hour, about a $40,000 salary. It gets super hard to survive.

Shannon Tymosko: And so I'm almost 30 years of age. I realize I have still 30 years of employment in front of me, which is ... and I realized you spend more time at work than you do at home. It's so important to find something that you love. And so I started this new journey. I started looking at ... you just start online, you Google jobs, you Google jobs that maybe fit your job skill that you already have.

Shannon Tymosko: And nothing was standing out. Until my friend, Matthew, he purchased a home. He bought this house. Neither of us have any trade experience, we're both really green is what they call us, know nothing. And the second day he has the keys to this house he wanted to rip out his kitchen, and I thought he was nuts, but we did. We started with the kitchen and moved to two bathrooms, basement, and I realized in that experience, because I tried something new, I really enjoyed this. And I think that's the biggest learning experience I got there is don't be afraid to try new things.

Shannon Tymosko: And even myself with that lesson, fast forward a couple years, and I always talk about, people, try things. Don't be afraid. And so this, the same friend, Matthew, we love to canoe. So we always go down the river in a canoe. For a year, he bought this new kayak. He tried to convince me to be kayak. And I thought I wouldn't like it, because I love the canoe. Why would I possibly want something different?

Shannon Tymosko: Finally, I get into the kayak and now I love the kayak more than I love the canoe. And again, so even myself, somebody who knows, by trying something, it can lead to so much. We often limit ourselves because of beliefs about ourselves. And so get out and explore the world and try things, because you never know, it could lead you to a passion you never knew about.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. So my husband and I, we just had our kitchen remodeled last year. And when we were meeting with the contractor, my husband who is in marketing for his profession was like, "Well, I want to do all the electrical." I'm like, "What?" But he wanted to do it. He was really interested in trying to do it. And it was also a way for us to save some money, and so he did it all himself. I mean, he's very detail oriented. So I mean, he did a lot of research. He did a lot of homework. He actually met with a couple electricians to go over his plans so that he didn't mess something up or burn the house down. And you know, it was a big experience for him because he actually started thinking, "Maybe I would enjoy doing something different."

Sarah Nicastro: I mean, he hasn't yet, but it is something where, when you go through that experience doing something that isn't your daily norm and that seed gets planted of, oh, this is really fun. I really like remodeling this house. You took that and ran with it. And you're living proof that anyone could. You're also living proof for organizations that someone can pivot, someone can have aptitudes, interests, the right personality fit to make a change and be successful in a completely different field. So you're doing these home renovations and you're really liking it. And that is what ignited your interest in becoming an electrician. So what happened next?

Shannon Tymosko: So I applied to some free apprenticeship programs. Having that child youth work skill set, I knew there was programs I'm sure out there. So I researched them programs for women to get into the skilled trades and I applied, very grateful to get in. And so it started my journey to actually getting something on my resume so I can hopefully get an actual job. And so this program was very nice to help set women up for success.

Shannon Tymosko: And so then, yeah, in that program I met a couple of gentlemen that were actually IBEW head office positions. So they did the training, they were the president, and they facilitated some of our training for this program, working at heights, lockout- tagout. And so I was grateful because I got the opportunity for them to see my face, to make that impression because I think it's so important. People are looking for good talent. I think we'll talk about it in a little bit, but I think we need to look for more than just talent. I think we need to look for those other characteristics.

Shannon Tymosko: So when I finished this program and I reached out to them, I was very grateful that they saw my drive, my heart, my eagerness, my want to learn and they were willing to take me on. So the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers here in Hamilton, it is a North American wide union, but Hamilton here took me on and so I started my electrical journey. And yeah, I was very blessed to be put on a construction site that was for a hotel. So you can imagine that it was a large hotel. So it went for quite some time, sometimes your projects aren't so long. So I got almost two years out of this project, and started my base of my electrical skills.

Sarah Nicastro: So what do you love most about being an electrician?

Shannon Tymosko: Oh, I don't know if I can say love most because I love so many things about my job. The financial freedom. I talk a lot about the thriving and not just surviving. The financial freedom, and I think when we're little, I don't know about you, but we see more Disney princesses getting married. So I'm thinking in my head I'm going to be married, certainly before I'm 33. Part of that marriage comes another income. And so these are things that you maybe think about. You don't think about, they just, it's just there. Right? And so now I'm 33, I'm still living on a single income and so this financial freedom that I get with working as an electrical apprentice, I make more as an electrical apprentice than I did in any of my previous jobs.

Shannon Tymosko: And I have the benefits, I have pension and on a much deeper level than just a physical or a financial benefit. What I really love about the skilled trades is I think you kind of talked about it, touched on it a little bit with your husbands taking on the electrical project at home. I talk a lot about mental health and how confidence, how is confidence built? Confidence is built by competence. It's by trying something, failing a few times and then being successful. So what did you talk about? You said there was maybe some self-doubt, what did he do? Researched. He figured it out. Maybe there was some trial and error, but I bet he felt great when he turned that light switch on and everything went on, and that is a little bit of confidence.

Shannon Tymosko: And every day I go to work and I look at something, I might doubt myself a little, they're doubting me a little and I'm successful, that feeling that I built that, I built that, I contributed to me, to society, to my physical and mental health is so rewarding. And so this is one of the most rewarding things I can get, along with this independence at home to try new things. So your husband tried the electrical, might not be what he's doing on a daily basis. For me, I've taken on car repairs. I started with oil changes. I've moved on to breaks, spark plugs, saving myself money and also building myself new skills. And so there's just too many things for me to pick one. Why love the skilled trades and electrical and how much it can benefit someone.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. So on the flip side, what would you say is the hardest part of the new career?

Shannon Tymosko: It's funny. I think it's that, again, we've touched on that self-doubt. It's every day you need to remind yourself, you can do this. Remember how far you've come already. And so I often sit here, even two years in this journey and I sit here a little bit in awe that you're in construction. You walk on a construction site every day and one of perhaps 100 people. And I have to remind my myself when I'm having those moments of self-doubt, because the job is ... if you're a hard worker and you're eager, the job is not necessarily hard. There might be hard moments of lifting things, but the job itself is not hard. Most people are very capable if you teach them. And so it's that self-doubt, which every day you have to fight a little.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Now, do you think you have more self-doubt than a male Apprentice Electrician, because you know that all eyes are on you?

Shannon Tymosko: I don't know if it's ... I think women are a little bit maybe ... sometimes I am. I'm just going to say I'm in my head more than most of the men. I like to say, I don't like to put us into ... but I'm definitely in my head. And then there is that pressure of you're a woman. Some of them don't think you belong there. They don't say it to you, but I know. And so there most certainly is this pressure to perform.

Shannon Tymosko: I say this as well. It's not only to perform for myself to know that I'm doing a good days work, but with so few women in the skilled trades, I am a representation of every woman on another construction site who's going to follow me, because men are judging me and they're judging women as a whole at the same time. And that is a different ... that's not the same pressure for my fellow male apprenticeship.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Yeah. So I want to read something that I read from an article you were interviewed for, and this is about being a woman in the industry. And so it says, "Actions often speak louder than words. And being a woman in the skilled trades today means I am still a minority, underestimated and a trailblazer for other women to follow. It means I must be strong, self-aware and realistic that I'm still in a man's world. I must be patient and not push change, but be an ambassador and advocate for change. I must be persistent, work hard and show the young women of tomorrow that they too can do whatever they desire."

Sarah Nicastro: "If you see it, then it's easier to believe you can be it. Although my experience is limited to only a short few years, I can say it can be lonely at times being the only woman on a construction site. It's also rewarding knowing you helped build that and had the courage to walk back into work every day where so many other others wouldn't." And so, I mean, first of all, this speaks volumes of your character and fortitude, because it does take a lot of courage. Everyone, you're probably right in saying every human being has some variation of their own self-doubt, but the pressure you're under is magnified because of the fact that there's these longstanding perceptions and these societal norms and this, that, and the other thing.

Shannon Tymosko: And the pressure is not just for ... I think the pressure's for any minority. Oh yeah. Let's be honest, in construction it's not very diverse. So whether you're the woman or you're the person who looks different in any way, there's a different pressure for that person.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. And I think, like you said in this statement, some isolation. Which is hard if ... I mean, you said it's the brotherhood, right. Is IBEW. So that in a name even is ... and so if there's this brotherhood and you're the odd man or woman out, because you're different in some way, it adds an extra layer of challenge of coming to work every day and doing what you need to do and feeling fulfilled. So I commend you.

Sarah Nicastro: What I wanted to ask is, if you think big picks those feelings that you have knowing that you're the minority, knowing that you're in a man's world, feeling that sense of isolation sometimes, how do we move past that? So for a variety of skilled trades that understand they need to hire with more diversity, women and all different types, that's going to be a big challenge. Because some people wouldn't want to take on what you take on every time you walk into a job site. So what do you think in your opinion, from a culture perspective, what are some of the things that need to change so that it isn't quite so daunting for a woman or for any minority to be a part of the brotherhood?

Shannon Tymosko: I think it's just going to take time. I think it's just going to take more women or more equality, everybody, a little bit of diversity. And it's interesting, because over my experience, I've met some incredible women and they've taught me some incredible things. And one of them said to me, she said, "Shannon, I've been in industry with predominantly men my entire life. And whenever they have a meeting, whether I'm in that meeting or not, they call me in," and for whatever reason, just because she changes the energy of the room. And yet you think about that. And I had this, at work one day there was a moment that clarified and validated this. I was working I was up on a ladder installing a light. There's hallways, you can't quite see what's in front of you.

Shannon Tymosko: And I heard someone comment, the supervisor that was on site, he was mad. He was yellow. And I was just grateful I wasn't on the other end. But he turned the corner, saw me, he didn't stop. He was still saying what he needed to say, but his volume dropped in half. What's different than me? And so I think just with more of us, it changes the energy. And how do you do that is the next question. How do you get more women interested into the skill trades? And I think we all know the answer, because we say it all the time. Education is power. Education is free. Education gives people the ability to make choices.

Shannon Tymosko: And so the problem I think with the skilled trades is we don't educate soon enough. And so if the option isn't presented to you before you're maybe 8, 10 years of age, do you ever consider it? Because there's so much, I don't want to say brainwashing, conditioning. There's so much conditioning. We see us as women, we see princesses. The boys see trucks and construction workers. Well, where's our equal balance of women construction workers to say that you can do that too?

Shannon Tymosko: Maybe it needs to be a princess construction worker who goes around the castle and fixes things. I don't know, but we need to start reaching young people at a younger level so that they ... and that goes for men too, to get them interested in the skilled trades so that they know that this is an option. Because people ask me often ask me, why did I pick electrical? And I feel my answer speaks volumes, because I was undereducated. I picked electrical because that's what I saw.

Shannon Tymosko: Growing up, I saw plumbing, electrical, roofers, carpenters. This is very basic. But if I had some education, I would've probably picked in hindsight, something that was a little bit less flooded, something elevator maintenance, a lot of electrical base in that, but it's not as flooded of a trade, and that's because of education. And so young and old, doesn't matter how old, we need to start introducing the idea to younger people so that it can be something they consider.

Sarah Nicastro: I mean, meanwhile, those elevator companies are within our audience, and they're looking for people to take those jobs. I mean, if you ever decide you want to go down that path, you probably still have plenty of opportunity, but you're right. There's gender norms that are still being reinforced, and that is prohibiting, like you said, we see more and actresses than female skilled trade workers. We see becoming a movie star as a more realistic career path than becoming an electrician, as a female. And so they just aren't roles that are shown in the same light. And I think part of that is this perception of ... like my parents didn't go to college, so it was always pushed to me that I had to, because that was the gold standard.

Sarah Nicastro: I don't necessarily think that's the case any anymore. And we need to do a better job of sharing more paths and more choices, and not just even in the education system, defaulting to everyone, there is no right or singular ... it's not a conveyor belt, right? Let's just move them all along and they'll go off and do these five, do want to be a doctor? Whatever. Because there are too many individuals for it to be that standardized in terms of the options.

Shannon Tymosko: And don't get me wrong, actress is a very glamorous position. Would you not to get pretty and dressed up in a dress on a regular basis? Absolutely. But let's be honest, is it a realistic one for most people? And the funny thing is, you know what? I've had my best chance. I've never been asked to be in a magazine in my life until I became a skilled trade worker.

Sarah Nicastro: And now you're famous. I mean, who knew that was the path?

Shannon Tymosko: There's so many different avenues you can go down. And I think one of the biggest things we need to tackle is misperception as well. I think let's take a look and compare my child youth work job with my electrical job. And a lot of people don't go the skilled trades route because of things it's too dirty.

Shannon Tymosko: As a child youth worker, I wiped bums, not my own kids bums, stranger's bums. Noisy? Sure. But I get earplugs as electrical worker. As a child youth worker, I do not get to say, "Child, please stop screaming," as I put in my ear plugs. And then the not strong enough thing. I was lifting kids out of wheelchairs to place them in whichever position they might be. Why can't I do that as a skilled trades worker? And so if it's perception, if you've ever thought maybe I could be a caretaker and take care of somebody, it's quite the possibility that you have the same skillset to be a skilled trade worker.

Sarah Nicastro: I guess. And to your point, the earning potential is far higher. I mean, yeah. It's a really good point. And you mentioned-

Shannon Tymosko: On a plus side, I don't have to get dressed up every day, every work. I know that the glamorous thing sounds nice, but now I don't have to do that at all. And so I get an extra 30 minutes of sleep every day.

Sarah Nicastro: Yes. That's a plus. Okay. I wanted to share this point that you made, and you were talking about your nephew. And you were saying that even though you have made this career transition and you are working in construction as an electrician, he still defaults to asking the men around him, "Can you fix this?" Or so just going back to this idea that, for us to really make a change, I think in increasing diversity in the trades and in any traditionally male dominated career we really have to think about the representation at a very, very young age.

Shannon Tymosko: And we might just have to flood the network ... not flood the network, but they're flooded with other things of boys in construction positions. One is not enough, even in a real situation. One is not enough. It needs to be maybe flooded and there needs to be an excess amount of women representation in the skilled trades for people to start to get that change.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I've done a series on the platform before called Women in Field Service. And we would feature women in different roles across the industries that we cover. And one time I was talking to someone, and they gave me what they felt was constructive criticism, that how do you expect things to be equal if you keep pointing it out as women in?

Sarah Nicastro: And I thought a lot about it because I always try to be cognizant of what messages I'm sending and, or reinforcing. And I try to always be willing to learn. But where I landed is I would love to get to a point where it doesn't have to be pointed out, but we're not there yet. And to your point, we won't get there by being quiet about it. I think we have to keep talking about it and talking about the importance of it until it no longer needs that label because the work has been done so that it isn't just women in field service, it's just person and field service, but we're a long ways away from that being the norm.

Shannon Tymosko: It's interesting you say that, because as a person who's active on social media, I often get lots of comments, and sometimes some of the words ... I think the word that people have used is, why is this such a novelty, women being in the skilled trades? And I want to go to my phone right now and Google the definition of novelty, because I don't remember it 100%, but I think it landed on until it's a norm, until it's a norm and you see it on a regular basis, it is a novelty. And so we have to again, make it so normal that people don't look into the crowd and see the difference.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, no, I think it's really important. And I think the work you're doing in telling your story and sharing your story is really helpful, especially because you pivoted, and hopefully people will come up and girls will choose this as their career from the get go and share their story as well.

Sarah Nicastro: So what else do you think ... is there any other tricks to helping the next generation see the potential that exists in the skilled trades? So we talked a lot about representation and how important that is. Is there anything else we need to be thinking out in terms of planning more seeds among kids, regardless of boy, girl, any gender and background, but just understanding that this is a viable career path and something that they could consider?

Shannon Tymosko: 100%. I talked on it earlier about actually trying something. We can put the representation there all we want, but unless we present the opportunity to try, they'll never know if they like it. So we need to, I think definitely reintroduce if your school has removed those programs of skilled trades, things like basic skills, like budgeting, these kinds of things are so important and they're not taught at the basic level. So if there was a class where you ... not say forced, you're forced to take math. So yes, if you were forced to take a construction class where you learned the basics for home care, I don't see anything wrong with that.

Shannon Tymosko: And I talked about it earlier today, how do we make change? And I don't know about you, but over my lifetime the common presence that I got as a girl were things pajamas, lotion, perfume. Thank you. And it slowly collects because it slowly collects and then it expires, what do boys get? Boys get hammers and maybe they'll get fun little tool sets. They probably don't think they're all that interesting at 10, but they turn 17. And they're like, "Oh man, I just got a car. And that tool set I got when I was 10," and they can revisit their present.

Shannon Tymosko: My lotion has far expired at this point. So get some tools into the hands of young people. If you have a project at home, drag your kids out to experience it, like you're changing your tires over. In Canada, we're doing the summer winter thing on a regular basis [crosstalk 00:32:20] home, get your kids involved, get their hands on the tool. You don't know if they'll it until they've tried it, and it's so important to give them that opportunity to try.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. That's a really good point. Okay. So let's think as if you are giving advice to ... doesn't need to be construction, any company that is in an industry that has traditionally been seen as male dominated, or has traditionally been male dominated that is looking to attract a younger, more diverse pool of candidates. What are some of the things that they need to be thinking about in terms of having a message that would resonate with someone you at 29 before you made this transition?

Shannon Tymosko: It's interesting, because I feel I'm a little biased on this because I've just recently gone through some of the hiring process. I normally leave it out of my journey because it just adds to it, but I did a little bit of machining in the midst of all of this. So I've applied for two different trades positions over the years. And the thing, the struggle I came across most was there's just not many entry level first year positions or even second year because people want the third, fourth, fifth year. And I totally get that.

Shannon Tymosko: I worked business. As a small business, you don't want to train someone to know what a pen is if they don't know yet. And that's the thing about the skilled trades, is you're learning new things day, you're learning ... there's so much material and everything's got three names plus a nickname. It's very overwhelming for that new hire, and new employers don't want to take them on.

Shannon Tymosko: So for me I'm like, is there a demand and skilled trades for ... and workers? Because I get so many people messaging me saying, "How do I get a job?" Employers, they have to understand it's going to cost money to take on the next generation and what you're going to lose if you don't do it, employers, and this is what you need to listen to is I'm not so concerned everybody about the lack of workers. I'm concerned about the potential loss of knowledge that you're about to lose.

Shannon Tymosko: Electrical goes from ... and I don't even know it. I'm so inexperienced, but I know there's knob and tube, there's aluminum, and then there's the new smart devices and all these different things. How much has technology changed in the last 50 years alone that those senior guys are going to take with them and you haven't passed down that knowledge to your new hires? Because I get it, it costs money, but that's the part of the apprenticeship process. They don't go to university and college, you pay the minimum wage, but you have to train them. There's a cost associated with that. And employers need to start taking that on.

Shannon Tymosko: To me, it's a little bit of both sides. There's people interested. I'm interested, there are people interested. I promise you. You just need to be open to new people.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, no, I think that's a really good point. And we've talked about that a bit, that the organizations who have historically hired on experience as the primary characteristic, it's becoming harder and harder to find yet there are really good candidates that have interests, aptitudes, abilities that could be developed into experience pretty quickly if we just shift the way we look at hiring and what type of training and development programs exist.

Sarah Nicastro: That being said, I think one of the things that stood out to me about your story is you have this hunger to learn, right? You're really big on not just showing up and doing your best, but being open to the learning process. And so do you think that's something that is innate or do you think that's something that someone can nurture and develop?

Sarah Nicastro: Because I think if we think about a future where, let's say more of those entry level programs exist where whether you're fresh out of school or whether you've been in a certain career and you want to make a change the way you did, you don't have any experience, but you have some skills or abilities or interests that you think would be applicable. If you go into those programs though, I mean, you have to have this strong willingness to learn. And to in a lot of ways, be humble and to show up every day and be ready to take it all in and try different things and learn as you go and fall down and get back up. Do you feel like everyone has that or could develop that or do you think it's just something that is innate in certain people?

Shannon Tymosko: It's very interesting. That's the age old question of nature versus nurture. And it's like, as a child and youth worker, it's one of the questions that are presented to us on a regular basis. Is this something that they're born with or did it in some way, this was created? And I've had the recent opportunity to watch my cousin raise two children. And she's a teacher, she's a fabulous mother. The first one comes out, genius reading books. So I'm thinking the next one, he's going to be the exact same. Well, didn't you nature just take over? This one's a runner. Doesn't want to talk yet. Nope. He just wants ... he is such an explorer climbing on tables. And so she's done the exact same thing. And so it's a little bit of both.

Shannon Tymosko: I think we could definitely mold and train and guide people in the right direction, but maybe we need to think about when we're little, we have such a hunger for learning. We're out exploring the world. We want to know what the bugs are, because it's all so new to us. When do we lose this hunger for learning? Maybe they're not presenting interesting enough topics in high school or elementary school to keep that flame alive. And so it's again, I think you are definitely born with a certain amount of things you can not control. I talk a lot. I try to control that for years. Can't. But I definitely think you can guide, mold and encourage and mentor someone in the right direction with the right intentions.

Sarah Nicastro: For sure. Okay. So another thing that I really liked about you when I was researching your profile is you speak out openly about mental health, which is something that I not only respect, but also try and do myself. So two questions related to this. The first is, how has your pivot into the skilled trades either helped or hindered your mental health?

Shannon Tymosko: Great question. One of the things, again, I touched on it earlier, but I didn't dive into it that one of the things I love about the skilled trades is how it's given me physical and mental health, that's very quickly brushed over, but there's so much more to that. As a person, myself who struggles, whether it's some depression, a little bit of probably anxiety at times, I've gone through my fair share of professionals. That's what's pushed me to be a child youth worker. So I wanted to understand more about myself.

Shannon Tymosko: And so I've gone to a doctor, my doctor, if you have a good doctor, the doctor, before he prescribes you on some medication should ask you if you exercise. And my answer up to that point was no, because I sit behind a desk for 40 hours. And so what am I doing for my mental health? If just a little bit of exercise can change the way I feel. And so being in construction, you don't get to sit. It's not a sitting job, and I'm not one to go to the gym ever. You have to pay me to work out.

Shannon Tymosko: And so this job I'm being paid to take care of my own mental health in a way. And the physical aspect, just that part, it keeps you younger. It keeps you active, keeps you moving. Especially most of us have been trapped at home during COVID. So to have that ability to go out and do something, there's some days you don't want to, trust me. Sure. But then by the end of the day, you're grateful that ... it's like when you go to the gym and you're happy that you made it there. I know some people can relate to that.

Sarah Nicastro: That's what you hear anyway.

Shannon Tymosko: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: The other part of this though that I'm curious about, is mental health a conversation you've normalized at all at work, since you've gotten into the skilled trades?

Shannon Tymosko: It's not something that's talked ever, I think as a whole. It's not you're ever going to be like, "This week's safety talk is on mental health and respect," and that it's not really something that regularly comes up in a group setting, but it's shocking as a woman in the skilled trades, I think men they just feel their defenses come down a little bit. So I'm the first one to get to see your new baby picture, and this is ... that's a moment that they're being vulnerable. They're being a little bit more sensitive than they would before.

Shannon Tymosko: And so in individual one on one settings I think I've been able to create some conversations about it. They start to open up a little bit. If I talk a little bit about my mental health, sometimes they might share a little bit about themselves and it just gives me that little bit of a bond. And again, that word, normalizes it, I guess. And I think it's too much to take it on as as a whole, but if you can get to ... you can change the mindset, encourage someone that it's okay to be themself. You might be able to shift the energy.

Shannon Tymosko: And with more women just entering the skilled trades, that's going to shift naturally because once the numbers are in our favor and there's a two on one, one day and there's two females and one male, you have no choice but to deal with our conversations of choice. And so it will just hopefully make change a little bit easier with more women.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, well, it's great that you're on the front lines doing the hard work for all of us.

Shannon Tymosko: So kind of you.

Sarah Nicastro: Is there anything else, Shannon, that we haven't talked about that you think is an important part of your story or your message for others, looking at the skilled trades or in the skilled trades?

Shannon Tymosko: Just thank you for listening. I think the fact, if you're here, that means you're open to change. It means you're open to listening, and that's the first step is just starting that conversation and being open to it. So if you're listening today, thank you very much. And hopefully there's something that maybe resonated with you or something that just encourage you. Some of my most blessed things are when I get messages from women themselves, or sometimes parents, but their kids came home from a presentation that day. And they're like, "I don't know what you said to my daughter that day, but she can't stop talking about it." And those are the ones that just bless my heart.

Sarah Nicastro: That's awesome.

Shannon Tymosko: Thank you for anybody who's, yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: Did I read that you have a kids' book?

Shannon Tymosko: As I've talked about, trying to reach out you younger generation, it's motivated me to make a kids' book. So I've got what they call the manuscript done.

Sarah Nicastro: You're working on one.

Shannon Tymosko: I'm working on it.

Sarah Nicastro: I love that.

Shannon Tymosko: To again, try to read that younger generation, and I think there's so much potential there. And so how can I make change? Hopefully with a little book.

Sarah Nicastro: That's awesome. Well, we'll definitely stay tuned for that. I think it's a wonderful idea. And the speaking that you're doing, not only here and in different articles, but certainly going to schools and sharing your experience, I mean, you're doing really important work in making the progress that you want to see made. And I'm sure there's days where it feels that progress is significant. And there's probably other days where you're like, "Is it ever going to be equal or is it just always going to be me feeling isolated?"

Sarah Nicastro: But you're doing the work every day to change that, and I think it's awesome. And I also think your story is a really helpful one for organizations that are trying to break the mold on who they hire, how they hire, to really hear someone's firsthand perspective and be able to think about what made you want to change? What was important to you? What do you like about what you're doing? What are some of the challenges? I mean, that's how they can start to think differently and make progress in their organizations as well.

Shannon Tymosko: Awesome. Well thank you for having me, and I really hope that I can be that influence and make some change. And sometimes it means you have to stir and create a little dirty laundry. You need to create conversations, but with that conversation, hopefully also comes some really great, amazing things for everybody.

Sarah Nicastro: Absolutely. Well, I appreciate you spending some time with me today, Shannon.

Shannon Tymosko: Thank you so much for having me, Sarah. I really appreciate being here with you and your guests.

Sarah Nicastro: Thanks. You can find more by visiting us at futureoffieldservice.com. You can also find us on LinkedIn as well as Twitter @thefutureofFS. The Future of Field Service podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at IFS.com. As always, thank you for listening.

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In part one of this two-part deep dive on leadership with James Mylett, SVP, U.S. Digital Buildings at Schneider Electric, Sarah and James discuss his career trajectory and begin discussing some of the traits that modern leadership demands – and how some of these have required a willingness to expand and evolve both thinking and actions.

Sarah Nicastro: Welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today, we are going to be talking about meeting the demands of modern leadership. I think we can all agree that the way we work, the circumstances in which we're working, all of the demands are far different on leaders today than they were five, 10 years ago. And there's a lot of evolution that needs to take place to continue to be effective. Very excited to welcome to today's podcast, James Mylett who is the Senior Vice President for U.S. Digital Buildings at Schneider Electric. James, welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast.

James Mylett: Thanks. Appreciate the invite. It's great to see you again.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. James and I first met when I interviewed him for a cover story when I was with Field Technologies. How many years ago do you think that was?

James Mylett: It was probably 2003. No, maybe it was 2010. It was a long time-

Sarah Nicastro: 2010. It's a long time ago, a long time ago. And I have stayed in touch with James over the years and watched his evolution as a leader. And James, I don't want to put you on the spot or make you uncomfortable, but you're somebody that I have a lot of respect for. And when I have talked with people that with you and for you, they have resoundingly positive things to say. That tells me you're doing something right. And so, I'm excited to talk with you today about your perspective on leadership and what it takes, and how it's evolved, and how you as a leader keep pace with what your team needs. So before we dig into that, tell our listeners a bit more about yourself, your current role, anything you want to share about your leadership journey.

James Mylett: Sure. I think the path is a little bit untraditional, maybe the right way to set it up. But I went straight into the workforce out of high school. I grew up in New York. I was born in Brooklyn. I was surrounded by a family of police officers, growing up my dad was a cop. I've got six brothers, no sisters, five of the brothers went onto the job as it's called. But I think that environment, if I listen to what my dad said that that profession was a service profession. And when he went through the academy, there was actually a sign in the academy that reminded the NYPD, that it at your service. And I think as I reflect back on his life, it was very much about service, and I think he instilled that in all of his sons. And so, it's been an industry that I've gravitated towards, and I get a lot of joy from being a part of it.

James Mylett: As I mentioned, I went straight to work out of high school, moved to Texas when I was set 17, graduated early. And went to work for an organization called MD Anderson Cancer Center, it's one of the premier cancer hospitals globally. And was fortunate to get hired by a guy named Andy, who was at the end of his career. But Andy made me promise to go and enroll in an associate's degree program as a condition of employment. So he put me on this journey of continuous development, and I actually had a chance to track his son down about two years ago. Because Andy was one of these leaders who was very tough. And I had to imagine he was the same way at home, and I'm not sure his son ever saw that side of Andy and I was able to share that with him, so was a special conversation we had.

James Mylett: But fast forward, I was a chiller technician for a number of years. I got into sales from there, went into leadership and I was working for Carrier in Dallas. And similar interaction or inflection point for me there was guy named Pat Goodfellow that came down from corporate and he announced this new employee development program. And he said something to me I've never forgotten. He said that, and this is in the 90s. He said that "Your parents grew up in an era where if they showed up for work every day, worked really hard, were loyal to the company, they could count on lifelong employment." And he said, "That deal doesn't exist anymore. Nobody talks about it out loud, but if you are working for a great organization, you can count on lifelong employability if you take advantage of the learning opportunities that they put in front of you." And he was putting a learning opportunity in front of us for tuition reimbursement and other benefits.

James Mylett: So literally, that night I went and I tracked down an online bachelor's degree program, got signed up and went on a path. Years later, I finished my MBA and I woke up one day and I was leading a 1.5 billion organization with about 4,000 service technicians. So it's funny, I talked to leaders today about this notion of imposter syndrome. And I've had a couple of those inflection points for myself over the years where you wake up say, how did this happen? But today I'm privileged to lead buildings business at Schneider Electric. It's a very vibrant, energetic, purpose driven culture here. And it's helping me continue to build out a better version of myself.

Sarah Nicastro: That's awesome. I don't think you just woke up one day and found yourself doing that, there's a lot of steps to getting there. And I know this isn't the topic of our discussion today, but one of the things that's interesting about what you're saying is the testament for the whole discussion that's happening right now about the opportunity that exists in the trades. So you sort of started out right out of high school and you didn't necessarily start with the degree, those came over time with some of the opportunities that were presented to you. But I think we've had a lot of discussion recently on this podcast about the talent gap, and the great resignation, and the need to evolve how we recruit and hire.

Sarah Nicastro: And I think for both individuals and companies thinking about what are those trajectories? What do they look like? When you take someone that has started as a technician and now is in the position you're in and just consider how that relates to the type of career paths, and education opportunities and sources to look for talent. It's really cool that you've had such a satisfying journey and it continues. And I think that's why I'm excited to have you here today talking about leadership is in the time I've known you, you've never been someone to just achieve a certain level of success, kick your feet up and consider it done. You embrace the fact that situations change people, change needs, change and you as a leader have to continue to adapt.

Sarah Nicastro: Again, I've mentioned the fact that we had Karin Hamel on the podcast late last year, she's on your team. We've had other folks that I've had conversations with and there's a difference, there's an authenticity in how they speak of you. It isn't just a kind of passing. "Oh yeah, yeah. James is great." It's a very genuine, very genuine emotion. And so, you and I connected and I said, so listen, if people feel this way about you and you're doing something right. What do you think it is that defines good leadership in today's modern era?

Sarah Nicastro: And so, we talked about some of those things. And today we're going to go through some of the traits that you identified that you think not only what makes you a good leader, but also what other leaders should be thinking of about. How are they honing these skills, how are they showing up for their teams in these ways? That sort of thing. The first is resilience. So let's talk about resilience a bit.

James Mylett: Yeah. In today's environment, it's hard to survive if you don't have that. And it's not just us and we've been working from home for a long time, all of us. And one of the things one of my leaders reminded me as somebody's kid came into the view or a dog jumps in its, we have to remember that we've invaded their space. They didn't just invade ours. And so, there's a resiliency at home that a lot of our families are dealing with as well as we adjust to this we're in. But I think our organizations get their cue from the leadership.

James Mylett: I can remember, I was working for a CEO at one point and we were going through a major change and he pulled me into his office. It's like going to the principal's office, what did I do is what's going through my head. And he made a comment to me. He said "We got 150,000 people in the organization and it's probably five people that I can think of that the organization takes their cue from, you're one of them. So where's your head at?" And he was checking because he recognized that if I wasn't on board, he would have a harder time getting the organization on board.

James Mylett: I had to remind one of our field technicians a few weeks back that, and this is somebody that's further along in their career, that you're now the person that you used to look up to. And so, think about that. You're the person that you used to look up to. And what is it about that person when you looked up that drew you to them and if you had to inject some improvement in that, what would it have been? Because that's your opportunity today.

James Mylett: So as we start thinking about the 2.0 or the 4.0 or the 8.0 version of ourselves, what's that journey look like and how do we individually get continuously better? I think in this environment, if we show up tomorrow defeated because, and fill in the blank, on any of the challenges that pop up in this usual, unusual that we all deal with every day, whether it's supply chain issues or people get... Our school district just closed down because they can't get teachers and they can't get substitutes.

James Mylett: And one of my leaders tell me that it feels like he's living in a real-world version of Jumanji, where every time you get through the tunnel that light that you saw at the end wasn't the end, it was the entrance to the next tunnel. So personally we have to check ourselves and make sure that we're filling our own buckets up to where our resilience levels are high. Because our organization's going to get our cue from us.

James Mylett: When I think about attributes, leadership attributes, mindset is one of the biggest things that's going to make a difference on whether or not you win or lose. And if you enter the battle with mindset that you're going to lose you're right. And if you enter it with a mindset you're going to win, you're a lot more likely to accomplish that. And so, as we've navigated through the pandemic, this has been top of mind for all of us. So simple things.

James Mylett: We had a leader at the beginning of the pandemic that works directly for me that as we were trying to figure out what we're going to do he said, "Hey, time out. Why don't we just get everybody to take the next five days and every day call a customer. And don't talk to them about business, just check in on them and see how they're doing personally." Okay. And so, it just helped us get focused on one, the right things, reaching out customers first, put the business stuff aside for a little bit, reinforced the human interaction that has just been isolated from all of us, and then give us a sense of purpose so that we could move forward as a team. So I think those little things make a difference. And Justin Lavoy was the leader and the organization took their cue from him that there's the path forward, and that's important. Make sense?

Sarah Nicastro: It does. And I think it's a really good point to... I like the point you made about reminding that field technician that he is in a position that he used to look up to. So looking for the opportunity to show people the part they can play in that resilience. I did want to ask, obviously everyone has hard days. And so, when you are having a hard day, but you know that you need to come in with the mindset of bringing that resilience, personal resilience to be able to bring that to work. Is there anything you do or any tips or tricks you have for bringing yourself back into a positive space to be able to do what needs to get done?

James Mylett: Yeah. I'm better today at stepping away for a little, even if it's for an hour, just to exhale from situations. And I've got an Apple watch and it could check your blood pressure and tell when you need to breathe. And I was actually on a conference call a couple of months back and I was getting agitated about a situation and my watch went off and said, you need to breathe, take a breath. But I think that's important to decompress there. When I think about areas where I need to improve still the work life balance thing has always been a challenge for me, because I genuinely love what I do. And I love in the game and helping teams win and all that. So I stay on a lot more than I should.

James Mylett: But what I've learned to do is to not cascade that down to my team. For example, Saturday mornings, I get up early, watch some of the Premier League soccer games, Manchester United is my team. And I'll catch up on email as I'm doing that. But what I realize is whether it's because of my title or whatever else when I send an email out, everybody has to drop what they're doing in response. I've gotten in a habit now of just going to offline and then early Monday morning I'll turn it back on. I'm not perfect at it. I'll still drop one out every Sunday, every once in a while but things like that help.

James Mylett: But no, I think just having the willingness to step away and take a moment makes difference. The other thing I always try to do is stay focused on the long game. So when trying to make big change in an organization, it never happens in a big step. Very, very rarely happens in a big step. It's small incremental steps over a long period of time that make the biggest lasting sustainable change. So the five wax at the tree every day analogy, eventually it's going to fall down over time. So I try to stay focused on that as well.

James Mylett: The piece that keeps me energized, it's the little reflection points that happened three years after that... I was in a meeting with a lady that worked for me and we got through with, it was a big meeting, another organization. And we all split up and she came back into my office and she said, "I don't know how you put up with this stuff." It was one of those conversations because it was one of those meetings. And so, we had a brief conversation around it. Then the mail came and I got this letter from a technician that used to work for me that had gone back to school. And this is like five years later. Then it was an invitation to his graduation in El Paso. And I walked across the building to Kathleen and showed her this and said, "This is why." It's the little staff like this that keep your eye on the long game. And it gives you the resilience to step through those tough days so.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I think there's two things I just thought of when you shared that story. One is patience is a big part of resilience and then two is perspective. So if your view is too short term, it's a lot easier to get frustrated than burnout. If you can look at the long game, it helps you understanding that you can't win them all but you win enough that it adds up to a lot of progress so.

James Mylett: That's something that I don't think that individuals give themselves enough credit for. And I think as a coach it's part of our role, it's just to point out. Call time out, just help people understand how far we've come on a particular objective. So yeah, we didn't get all the way to here but look at where we started. And my bend is towards aspirational targets. These folks that we were in this room, I'm in here the month after I started and the role that I'm in and we're meeting with the team about our digitally enabled services and where we were at that point in time. And we got the data up on the screen and it was a shock for everybody how low it was at that point in time, it was low single digits.

James Mylett: And this was having service agreements that are truly digital first. That's the interaction customer, all that so. We talked about where should we be? And the team said, "Well, two years from now, we should be twice where we are. That's a big step from where we are." And I said, "Yeah, I think we'll hit that." Me I'm not that smart, I'd probably set a crazy target like 50, and we all know we'll never get to 50 we'll probably only get the 40. And so, sure enough the team got there. And this last year we finished up right at 50, and it's a good calibration point for the team as they step back and look at what they got accomplished compared to what they thought was possible.

James Mylett: When they accomplish something and have a plan and passion around it. There's a movie called Facing the Giants that there's a clip in it called, if you can go out to You Tube type of Facing the Giants and Death Crawl. And it's this clip where this coach is trying to get this football player to this crab walk or whatever you call it, where you're on your toes and your fingertips and you're trying to go up the field. And he says, he wants to do it with one of the other players on his back. And he says, "Well, I can go to the 50 without him. I can probably go to the 30 with him." And the coach says, "I don't want you thinking about where you're going." And he put a blindfold on him. Said, "I don't want you limiting yourself by what you see."

James Mylett: And he's given him the aggressive coaching all the way. And he winds up in the end zone because he didn't have the limitations of what he thought he was capable of doing. The coach saw something in him that he didn't recognize in himself. And it goes back to this notion about the influence that you have. And that was his comment to the player when he got to the end zone, is that you don't realize the influence you have on all those other players. And if you don't think we're going to win, they won't think we're going to win. And so, what comes out of our mouth is so critical in terms of setting the tone for the organization.

Sarah Nicastro: Absolutely. Okay. All right. The next trait is integrity. One of the things you said to me when we spoke about this is that, the video has to match the audio. So integrity is really how you build trust with your team. So talk to me a little bit about integrity. 

James Mylett: Yeah. As we talk with leaders about development, we tend to reflect back on our successes but you get growth out of failures as well. And failure, shouldn't be fatal, the area where it has a potential to be fatal is an integrity. So it's one of these third rails said, if you get it wrong, there's no good news in that at all. And it comes in a lot of different flavors, but at the core of it, it's how you carry yourself. Are you authentic? Are you trustworthy? Are you someone that people can count on? Are you transparent? Which that's actually a word here at Schneider that's at the forefront, we think about our core values it's right up front.

James Mylett: I love the fact that we put up on the table, because it sets the tone, even in interactions that there's a transparency to the conversations that have. But one of the leaders on my team, when I stepped into this role, we were talking about this topic and he made the comment that your intent comes into the room before you do. And it's a good calibration point on that front. I've had to clean up some really out there situations where you just sit back and what were people thinking? You try to get inside the head of somebody that made that decision, that was just clearly off the rails.

James Mylett: I interviewed a guy for a job years ago that was with a big school district. He was wanting to come to work for the company with at the time, and his team that was underneath him at the school district. There was two characters on the team that did something that was blatantly illegal. It was no question about it, but it happened on his watch. And so, the question that one of the panel interviews asked is how you reconcile that because this guy had the TV crews following them around to interview him. 

James Mylett: And he talked about the relationship that he had with these two individuals and how, when one of them had gotten sick, he used to go to their house and drop off food to make sure they were okay. And which speaks to the quality of this person we were looking to hire. But he said, "The thing that's been the toughest thing for me to choke down is that no matter how tall the firewalls are that you put up, it's difficult to overcome the malice that might be in an individual's heart."

James Mylett: And so, I think when I think about integrity as an organization, the antibodies for that malice is the culture that you build. And the purposeful intent on culture. We have one of our pillars is embrace different in inside of that in the language. It has a comment in there that we call out bias where we see it. So you think about that, you're on a job site and you see something, what do you do? Do you step up, do you speak up or do you just look the other way and keep going. Our core value says you're calling it out. And so it's that type of culture build that creates the antibodies against the wrong behavior on the integrity front.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. It can be so, so hard to call those things out too. If you always think about it as something, conceptually it all makes sense. Call it out when you see it. But I found myself in a position just a week or two ago, I was in a large meeting where someone said something that just didn't sit right. And then it's, I don't know. It puts a lot of pressure sometimes on an individual to be the one to speak up if to your point, the culture doesn't promote doing that. Because how will they respond or then, I don't know. It's, yeah. It's-

James Mylett: Now back to the intent comment that I made. I think for me, there's typically smaller things that lead up to the big thing happening. And it's our inability to address the smaller things that creates an environment that allows the big things to happen, typically is the case. And if we're willing to step in and address the small things then we can prevent some of that. And as a leader, the feedback I give my team is that when you're in that situation, so let's say I'm in the situation, I'm a leader and there's somebody else. It's a peer of mine that makes a comment. And I know that I should give them feedback, but I'm not going to give them feedback because it's really uncomfortable for me to do that. So now it's no longer about what's best for that person, it's about me and my feeling here and my level of uncomfortableness.

James Mylett: When you step into these leadership positions it's no longer about you, it's about everybody on the team. The comment I share with people is when you make that decision as a leader, it's really one of the most selfish decisions you could make as a leader because you're doing it for your own reasons, not for what's best for the person or for the team, and it's tough. I've had some really difficult conversations with that when I walk away from them, I just ex. It's like this big exhale that I'm so glad I got through that. But typically not always, but typically when you deliver it the right way and your intent is genuine, the reception is pretty positive and appreciative.

Sarah Nicastro: I think it's also when you talk about intent, if there's a lot of these things that come up particularly when you talk about diversity, equity and inclusion. So there's a lot of things that come up that they're often referred to as microaggressions, where the person that may say or do something that you feel you need to point out doesn't have malicious intent, but just is not aware of how that statement could be perceived or that sort of thing. And so, it's one of those things where certainly someone who has ill intent, that's easier to address in the sense of it's more glaring, it's... Some of those other things I think is where it gets tough, but you're right. You have not think about it in terms of your own personal comfort zone, but think about it in terms of the intended outcome and the benefit of helping someone who isn't intending that impact to see what they're saying or doing.

James Mylett: There's a skillset build there too though. So I think there's a change management model I subscribe to that one of the pieces in it is skill sets, but there's a failure point each one of the pillars. So if the skill sets aren't there, the anxiety level goes up. What we're talking about is a situation where I see it, my anxiety level goes through the roof. And typically it's because I don't have the skills to have that conversation effectively or I don't have the confidence to do it. So we make a lot of investment in those specific skill sets to have those difficult conversations. So things like softening statements, "Hey Sarah, would you mind if I gave you some feedback." Some skillsets on how to deliver feedback in a way that is more likely to be captured and acted on makes a big difference in terms of how you approach it, but yeah.

James Mylett: I was in a meeting probably six months ago and somebody had one of these YETI coolers and it had something on it that just was in the context of everything else that's going on, it didn't read right. Five years ago, it wouldn't even have made a difference. But today it's, people's the visibility, the perspective is different. So there was another leader in the room that this individual worked for and I was waiting to see how it played out, and it didn't.

James Mylett: And so, I had a conversation, coaching session with the leader afterwards about, I just replayed the game film. And it was a aha moment for the leader and to that person's credit, they immediately went and had the conversation and it just wasn't, there was a blind spot is probably the best way to put it. That blind spot was made visible. Everything took care of itself. And that's the power of the feedback, but it's the skill sets are important. And I think we underestimate that, especially at the frontline that our frontline leaders have been equipped to have those conversations and way. And if we can't point to the investments we've made in their development, then we shouldn't assume that the skillsets are there.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. That's a really good point. Okay. The next trait is curiosity and open-mindedness.

James Mylett: So which one first? I think that the curious piece of it, I... There was an article that was written on my father that referred to him as a searcher. And I think that got some of that genealogy inside of me that I... If I have any career regrets at all, it's just this family pull to be on the job, so it was something I didn't pursue. But those genes around problem solving and detective work and all that, which is just part of who I am. So when I bump into situations, I have tendency to want to unpack them. I'm very data driven, so I get into analytics and root cause analysis and all that.

James Mylett: But today's environment is probably the richest environment for somebody that's wired like me, so it's because it's so rich with opportunities for transformation. And the speed of transformation is so different today than it's ever been and stop. And so, what I try to do as a leader is immerse my myself in situations that allow that opportunity for me to get engaged. So right before we got on this call, I was on a call with a small team. We have an agile project that we're working through to help our customers sort through how to gauge what the health is of their building. So are there's simplistic things that we can do to help our customers address the whole healthy building situation.

James Mylett: I asked some questions in the last session that they followed up on, and I'm learning as I'm going through this of what can be done so that helps. I think the other thing for me is just surrounding myself with people who are going to be bent on going on those explorations. So I've got a young leader on my team that is leading our efforts into federal space and he's opening up new doors for us to go explore into, but I think it's important. I had a conversation with this person, I won't name them. But it was one of the original people who wrote the checks to fund Google years ago. So I was consulting work for him.

James Mylett: And we were talking about change and one of the people in the room was talking about the buildings industry and he made the comment that, there's a lot of gray hair in that industry, which meant it's going to be the difficult to drive change. And this person's reflex comment was "It's not the gray hair that concerns me, it's gray brains." And I asked him, "What do you mean by that?" It's old antiquated ways of thinking that aren't relevant today. They were relevant 10 years ago, 15 years ago, but they're not relevant today. And, and when I think about the pace of change here and how quickly things move, if you're not willing to take the steps to stay relevant, you can quickly go past your expiration date, even with some of the things that...

James Mylett: I used to subscribe to leadership models that I wouldn't dream of applying today, I just... And the people that I work around and colleagues in the industry that disagree with me on this topic. There's things in the Jack Welch playbook that were just part of who I was as a leader that I don't do those anymore. There's pieces of it that I still subscribe to. But top grading is an example for me personally, that's not what I'm about. I think there's a seat at the table for everybody, if they have the right attributes and the right fit factors for the organization. You put a post up on LinkedIn yesterday with your t-shirt said "Doing my best."

James Mylett: And I think there's a quote. It says something to the effect of "Comparison is the thief of all joy." And so, that's new learning for me. I was going through a book called Chop Wood Carry Water. Somebody recommended to me. And I picked up on that in the book. And it just really resonated because so much of these old models were all about these comparisons, and it's for me, when I think about continuous improvement it's the 2.0, 3.0, 4. version of me, my team, my organization, compared to where we were. And when I think about comparisons, I think I'm better served to compare us to where we were and where we're going, where we aspire to get to, and compare us to our ability to meet our customer's expectations than I am against the market so.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I really like that James, because I think that your works that, the title of this podcast is about modern leadership. And so, I think that it's just a really important point to know that you have to be open to recognizing that beliefs you held year ago or five years ago, or 10 years ago, you're allowed to change your mind. You're allowed to consume new information and change your opinions, and adopt different models, and think differently. In fact, not only are you allowed to, but I think it makes you better.

Sarah Nicastro: I think that I interview a lot of people on this podcast and there's the companies that are struggling it's because the people at the top are very set in more of well, this is how we've always done it, this is worked for so long, this is what we know, this is who we are. Very rigid mentality. And it's not really conducive to innovation, and innovation is key to success in the landscape that we're in. So I think that that willingness to evolve, not just with your team or as a team, or to meet customer needs or as a business, but as an individual to reflect on and reconcile when your beliefs change or when your perspective on what works or what doesn't changes. I think that makes you better. I think that's a really good thing.

James Mylett: One of the models I subscribe to is from the partners and leadership is Oz Principle. And it basically says that your beliefs, like when we talk about beliefs. Your beliefs are really driven from the experiences that you have. So this curiosity mode gets me in a position where I'm getting different experiences today than, or before. Even on, so we'll go back to the diversity front. When George Floyd was killed, there was this moment I think for our country where all of a sudden it was more painful for us to stay the same than it was for us to start changing. And that's another belief I have is until the pain is staying the same gets greater than the pain of changing people have a tendency not to change. That moment in time created this pain point for us.

James Mylett: My reflex was to reach out to this resource group that we have here, that I was the executive sponsor of and check in and see how people were doing. And I learned so much in... I don't get surprised that often. I got surprised at how little I knew in, especially in this area because it's something I've been passionate about for a long time. And have prided myself in being engaged and active and all the rest of it. But what happened in the aftermath of his killing things came up on the table that weren't on the table before. And so, when you get that direct experience of being on the camera with somebody and hearing the emotion in their voice as they talk about the experiences that they're having, in a modern day suburb, affluent neighborhood that just floors you.

James Mylett: And so, my belief system evolved because of that. And you [inaudible 00:37:42] argue about whether or not it should have evolved earlier and all that, but it evolved at that point in time. I think had I not been willing to reflex into that conversation, I wouldn't have gotten that in the moment experience and I wouldn't have moved this fast as I did. So I think that's... If I've got coaching for people, you have to continuously find a way to put yourself out there and get close... I mean there's Six Sigma stuff that says, if you want to solve the problem you got get within 12 feet of where it's happening, this gamble walk type stuff. But I think that applies to the leadership too. You got to be willing to put yourself out there where you can see at the front line, what's really going on.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. That post you mentioned on LinkedIn with my t-shirt, "Doing my best." I got that as a reminder to myself because there's a lot of the things you said earlier on, resonate. I am super passionate about what I do, but that makes it really hard to have good balance. And I have young kids and there's just... So sometimes I have to remind myself, like I'm doing my best and that's going to look different every day, whatever. Someone commented and said, "Tell that to the KPIs." And I laughed because it was funny, but at the same time there's a balance there too. Like we were not machines, we're human beings.

Sarah Nicastro: I think the more that as leaders and company culture wise, we can just understand that recognizing that our best looks different every day. And recognizing that we can't compare our best to someone else's best, we're comparing our best to our best yesterday and our best of the day before that ultimately will improve the KPIs. I firmly believe that if we can just treat people as humans and I think that is really a root of those leadership philosophies.

Sarah Nicastro: Everything used to be very, very productivity driven, results at all costs, individualistic and that has evolved a lot and I think it's for the best. It's changing the thinking of people though that no one's saying, I'm doing my best every day so today I don't care about the KPIs. It's you can do both. You can get results and do so. Not at the expense of people, but in giving them the freedom to bring their talent to the team and to work the way that they need to work so, yeah.

James Mylett: I think so I'll make another comment that there will be a lot of people who disagree with this. But I think you can be unbelievably driven as an organization while also being kind. I don't think they're mutually exclusive. I think there's this approach that we take to where you're hard on the role piece of it, but you're soft on the individual piece of it. And the whole vaccine thing that's going on and the mandates from the government, and how those things are shifted is as we've navigated through that.

James Mylett: The thing we were all clear about as a leadership team is that in our core values, it talks about embracing different viewpoints. And there's a lot of different viewpoints on this topic, but it's viewpoints from people who are all part of our family. We're going to make business decisions that are the right thing to do to move the business forward. But as we do that, there's no reason why we can't be gracious and kind, and such and such as we navigate through that. And it's a moving target and what the expectations are. So the flexibility has been key as well, but yeah. I think that's changed.

James Mylett: And Sarah, I think part of what's changing it is people buy in for their reasons, not ours. So as we think about attracting the workforce, who? When we say workforce, what part of the workforce we looking to attract? And what are their reasons for buying in and does the culture that you're purposefully building match up to what they're wanting to buy into? And so, we talk about having an organization that's focused, that's purposeful, that's driven, that's going to achieve great things while is also being benevolent and kind, and gracious. That's a great combination to have, and it's a value proposition that absolutely resonates with the emerging workforce.

James Mylett: And we talk about sense of purpose. I love the fact that we are as an organization are so focused on sustainability, and helping customers solve those problems. Because there's a higher purpose to that in terms of the planet. We can do, make a dent in carbon emissions through the work that we do. So for our people, when they look to come to work here, they see a path of having meaningful purpose in the work that they do.

James Mylett: I think part of my job is to connect the dots and remind them how, what they just did had that impact. Your willingness to get out there and work in the hospitals and this kind of an environment. Think about the impact that that's having in terms of helping the doctors to save lives, by making sure that the environment is clean, it's safe, it's filtrated, all those things. And when you're in the middle of it, you lose sight of that.

Stay tuned for part two of this discussion!

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Some Days the Dragon Wins: Perseverance in Challenging Times

February 2, 2022 | 25 Mins Read

Some Days the Dragon Wins: Perseverance in Challenging Times

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Sarah welcomes Max James, an Air Force Academy graduate, pilot shot down twice in Vietnam, who became a Fortune 500 entrepreneur and original founder and CEO of billion-dollar American Kiosk Management. Max shares some lessons learned about resilience that he’s recently shared in his book “The Harder I Fall, The Higher I Bounce.”

Sarah Nicastro: Welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today, we are going to be talking about perseverance in challenging times, and I'm excited to have with us today Max James. Max is an Air Force Academy graduate pilot. He was shot down twice in Vietnam and has quite a journey he's going to share with us. He later became the founder and CEO of American Kiosk Management, a multi-billion dollar global presence in North America, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, and has had quite the journey. He recently published a book called The Harder I Fall, The Higher I Bounce. So, Max, welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast. Thanks for being here.

Max James: Thank you very much.

Sarah Nicastro: So that was a brief introduction. Before we get into some of the content we have planned today, tell our listeners a little bit more about yourself.

Max James: Okay. Well, it's a long journey, one full of a lot of luck, both bad and good, I might add. But, yeah, my dad was a sharecropper back in West Tennessee, and I grew up following two gray mules in the fields. Finally, my dad said, "I don't think you like the farm, why don't you get a job in town," which I did. Then I was the administrative assistant to a congressman when I was 17 years old in Washington. From there, I went to the Air Force Academy for four years, graduating in 1964, so that gives away my age, I suppose, and went to the pilot training. My class was either lucky or unlucky depending on your perception. But we graduated, went to pilot training, and went to war. I flew with the best mission you could possibly have in any war of any type, and that was to Air Rescue. Our job was to rescue fighter pilots when they were shot down in North Vietnam or Laos.

Max James: Came back and was a combat instructor pilot, left the Air Force, and went to Stanford, picked up an MBA, left there and went to work for the world's richest man, which was... For an old Southern boy, that was tall cotton, working and traveling the world with him, principally in real estate but also in movies investments. From there, I got that entrepreneurial itch, and I left the Bay Area, San Francisco, Bay Area, moved up to Sacramento to be hopefully a bigger fish in a smaller pond, and it worked out well. I then ran a couple of companies that I started up, resigned from those, sold them, and became one of the executive vice presidents of Days Inns of America when we were the sixth largest lodging chain in the world. My responsibility was to build, own, and operate hotels in California and Nevada.

Max James: That's I did for years, and the entrepreneurial bug got me again, and I left on a series of wildly failing and wildly successful entrepreneur ventures, ending up principally, as Fortune called me, the king of kiosk, opening about 1200 locations in those areas, those countries that you mentioned. We built that company up to a billion, 800 million in about 14 years. So I ended up selling the company with another that I was a distributor of, to Nestle, and Jack Canfield convinced me that since I'd been telling these wild stories all my life and people saying, "You ought to write a book, you ought to write a book"... So I did, and it took me a little longer than I thought it would take me, but it was enjoyable to look back down memory row and try to share the principles in each of the stories that either led to failure or led to success.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Max James: That's it.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. That's great. That's a really good synopsis of what I'm sure has been quite a wild ride. So good. Thank you. All right. So having had a chance to look through the book, there's a couple of themes that stand out to me in your content that I want to discuss on today's podcast that I think will be relevant to our audience. So that first is around perseverance, right? That has been a top of mind term, certainly, for the past two years, right, and something that I think our audience, both from a personal perspective as leaders and then from an organizational perspective, are thinking about what it takes and how to persevere. So can you share some of your thoughts on perseverance, both personally and then from the business perspective, so as an individual and as a business?

Max James: Yeah, sure. As an individual, I think the mother of perseverance is survival. You just have to have grit. You've got to get up. When you get knocked down five times, get up six, I think, is the old expression. So it was survival in many cases. Failures often were very painful. It's not fun to have a business fail that you're involved in or running or own. So it's getting over that painful emotion, a set of emotions, really, and the result. I've never had to file bankruptcy, but I've come close a few times. I've relied on friends sometimes to bail me out, certainly. I've relied on contacts, business contacts, mentors to help me get through. In fact, an accountant, a classmate of mine from Stanford once, we went into talk to a bankruptcy attorney because I thought it was time for me to file bankruptcy. The accountant said, "No, no, I don't think so, Max. I don't think that's going to be necessary, but I'll take it to the attorney." So the attorney went through it, and he said, "Okay, here's what I'm going to need. I need $5,000 deposit up front." I reply with, "If I had $5,000, I wouldn't be here."

Max James: So, we did not file bankruptcy, but here's the story my accountant told me that I've never forgotten. He said, "Max, just get out on your hands and knees, picture yourself, and put a peanut on the floor in front of you and just push that peanut across the floor, trying to get to the other side, and every once in a while, just turn around and look behind you and see the success that you've made and then go down and push that peanut some more." Sure enough, I got bruised knees and a bloody nose from pushing across the carpet, but it worked, and so that stuck with me forever. Perseverance on a personal level, you just have to keep trying. You have to have a long-term goal, I think, Sarah, one that you want to strive for, and you're going to have ups and downs, but the long-term goal is important. But getting there requires short-term goals, day to day, moment to moment, pushing the peanut across the floor.

Max James: So perseverance for me on a personal level is survival. On a business level, it's those short-term goals to get through day by day by day by day and then the long-term goal, knowing where it is exactly that you want to go. You have to have a plan B and a plan C. You have to be adaptable to the circumstances that you deal with on a day to day, year to year basis. There was never been a major battle won in war that went as planned, not a single one, and that comes from military history classes. So the battle's going to change, and you have to be ready. Sometimes, it's plan B, and I don't subscribe to the saying that says, "There is no plan B if this doesn't work." I don't believe that. I think you have to be adaptable.

Sarah Nicastro: Always have a contingency plan, right?

Max James: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Sarah Nicastro: But don't move on to it too soon, right? I mean, I guess that's the balance, right? You need to always have that, but you can't give up quickly or easily. I think that's the name of the game. So, in your book, you talk about a cartoon that says, "Some days, the dragon wins," okay?

Max James: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: So tell me what that means to you and how that relates to perseverance.

Max James: Yeah. I wish I had a copy of it. I could show you right now. But it shows the knight, and the helmet is all beat up and the chest plates and the armor on his arms, and the big long sphere that he uses to joust with is broken, but he's on his feet, and he's walking away, and the horse that he rode on is still upright, and the cartoon says, "Someday, the dragon wins." Okay, that's true. There are going to be tons of days, whether it's a contract or a sale or a distributorship or whatever, that's not going to work. It's going to fail, and it hurts like the devil when you lose those, particularly if you've been working on it for a long time.

Max James: A plan B or adaptability says, "So now what do we do?" Well, we've talked about this before, and here's the way. We're going to need to try again for the same goal, or we're going to have to shift our goal a little bit and move from this product line to that product line and use the same business principles that we've always used. But, some days, the dragon wins, and you just have to get up. As the old saying goes, you get bucked off the horse, like I did many times when I was a kid, my dad would insist that I get back up on that horse.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. I like that saying because I think that it applies to a lot of different areas of business, of life, right?

Max James: Sure.

Sarah Nicastro: I think that, in the challenging times we've had over the past two years, sometimes... The dragon can be different things, I guess, is the point, right? The dragon can be your mood or your mental health. The dragon can be, like you said, a big deal you're losing. The dragon can be an initiative that you're trying to get off the ground that fails. It can be a lot of different things, but you have to remember that the dragon will win some days. They're not going to win every day, right? I guess that's what you have to use as the motivation to get up and try again the next day.

Max James: So you take your hits, lick your wounds, live to fight another day, and some days you just have to pay the piper.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So the next area I want to talk about, Max, is leadership. You say in your book that being a good leader of others begins with being able to lead yourself through hard times. So tell us a little bit more what you mean by that, and maybe share an example if you can.

Max James: Sure, you bet. Here would be a good example, and then we'll spin off with that. I was a pilot flying rescue helicopters, and I had trained hard. I had studied hard. I had practiced flying that helicopter under stressful situations. So I was preparing to lead the crew that I had on that chopper. The pilot gets shot down in Vietnam, North Vietnam, and the crew and you and the helicopter are going in to see if you can rescue and bring that guy home to his family and to a full life hopefully. When it comes time to make the decision to fly into the ground fire, whether it be SAMs, MiGs, or other ground fire, you've got a crew, and you're going to make the decision as to whether to risk not only the plane but a crew of four to save one.

Max James: So here is a situation where you learn to lead yourself. It's going to be my decision. I can't just always take a vote of the board or take a vote. Sometimes, you just have to charge forward. There's a block saying that speaks to an overly abundant ego, and it says, "I may be wrong, but I doubt it." Sometimes, you just have to rely on yourself, and if you haven't been in stressful situations where you had to make a decision, where you had to lead, then you're never going to be able to lead others. You've got to be able. So I say you have to have the skill, you have to hone the skill, you have to practice the skill, you have to implement the skill when the time comes.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. It's interesting when you think about how this translates to leadership today, right? The name of your book is The Harder I Fall, The Higher I Bounce. Right? So you're talking about you can't achieve success without failure, and so what you're talking about here, being a good leader starts with leading yourself, I think one of the areas that maybe is evolving or has evolved is leaders being comfortable with leading by example, even when that means failing, right?

Sarah Nicastro: Because if you think about if you can achieve success without failure and you need to normalize that and eliminate that fear of failing, which will ultimately prohibit creativity, innovation, all of those things, I think one of the best ways for a leader to really institute that belief in their team is to be willing to be vulnerable enough to show themselves failing, which means setting the ego aside, the leader ego aside, and being okay with knowing that, yes, you have to listen to yourself, you have to follow your gut, you have to rely on your intuition and your leadership abilities, but when that doesn't go well, that's okay, too, right? I mean, that's something that you and your team both can learn from and use as an opportunity to normalize the fact that failure is a part of success. Does that make sense?

Max James: Sure. It absolutely does. A friend of mine years and years ago wrote a book called The Joy of Failure, and his whole point was that you learn so much from failing that you should take the positive from failure. Losing when you have a large team, even a company, behind you will certainly show your vulnerability. It's how you respond to that failure with your team. We often talk about servant leadership, where your job is to support the team and to draw on the team.

Max James: So if you're practicing that as a leader in a philanthropic effort or a large business or a small business as an entrepreneur, if your team knows that you're supporting them and you fail, you fail as a team, and they will get it. They will understand what happened and what the principles were that didn't work or that did work. So, yeah, I would agree with that. Absolutely. The fear of failure is overwrought. There's too much emphasis on absolutely just being afraid to fail. It's going to hurt. It may cost you a lot. It may change your entire career or your life, but life will go on. Business will go on, and you will bounce back if you have the right attitude.

Sarah Nicastro: What I'm thinking about in real time as you say that is the correlation then between eliminating that mentality of failure as bad and how that correlates to perseverance, right? If you think about it in terms of the team and the message is failure's not an option, okay, then when it inevitably happens, the emotion tied to that can be so strong that then the willingness to get up and bounce back the next day is hindered, right? So, in a way, I think that the more you normalize failure and create the understanding within your team, organization, business, what have you, that it is a part of success, a path to success, the better sense of perseverance your employees will have because they're not tied to that emotion of failure being such a negative thing, which for some people...

Sarah Nicastro: I mean, yes, some people have the fortitude where they can fail and get up the next day and try again no matter what, but others, that sense of failure being bad could contribute to less individual perseverance because it makes them not want to try again. Do you know what I mean? So the more you normalize this idea of failure not being a bad thing, the greater your ability to increase the sense of perseverance and triumph in your team because they don't perceive it as such a big negative thing, if that makes sense.

Max James: Yeah. A leader should always let his people know that he will be there to pick them up, that if they fail in an assignment, in a project that they were given, that the leader will be there to support and to pick them up in the event that this particular effort wasn't successful. One of the things we always told our people is there will be other opportunities in your life and some of them won't be here. It may not be here because you don't like it. It may not be here because you don't have the skills to accomplish all of the things that we need. But if you ever find another opportunity that is better for you than this one, we will cheer you on. We will support you. We will do all we can to help you with that.

Max James: So I'm going to give you one other example. I had a foundation for kids that are terminally ill and chronically ill, and we talked about this failure business, and they have fallen, right? They're very ill, not their fault that they have fallen, but they're very ill, and several of them, a large percentage, weren't going to make it, and they were aware of it. But here's what we told them. I took a tennis ball, and I dropped the tennis ball, and it only comes back about, what, halfway? But if you throw the tennis ball down, it bounces much higher. These kids that were five to 16, 17 years old, they got that illustration, that they had fallen hard but they could bounce back higher if they were like that tennis ball and were resilient and willing to bounce. So I think that's true of failure. You don't have to fear failure. Be willing to accept failure, learn from it, and go onto the next project or business or entrepreneurial effort.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Do you think that that perception of failure is... What do you think the state of that is in business today? Do you think the perception of failure is different than it was earlier in your career? Do you think it's evolved?

Max James: I think there's far less fear today than was my experience early on in my career. Getting fired, to me, was back then a very frightening thing. I'm not talking about the time in the military. I'm talking about the time when I got out of Stanford and started businesses. In fact, listen, I've been fired three times, okay, three times, not always my fault, okay? The business changed, the tax changed, the company got purchased for another. But the point is I never feared it. You just gird your loins and say, "I got to get through this, and here are the things I'm going to do." Opportunity knocks. No, opportunity rarely knocks at your door. You have to go out and find opportunity. When you find it, you got to grab it by the neck and shake it and beat it up until opportunity is yours, okay? So you always have to be prepared. Opportunity doesn't knock. You may have to go find it.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Okay. So-

Max James: But the fear today... There's so many opportunities and it's so much easier to find them because we have this thing called the Internet and social media and the ability to stay in contact with past friends and business associates, the ability to find good mentors to help you through these things. No, I think that the fear of failure should be far less today. Fall hard, bounce high. The next book may be fail fast, fall forward. I kind of like that. Fail fast, fall forward.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I like it. Okay. So one of the things that I found interesting about you, and I'm not sure why, it's probably something to reflect on, is you say that meditation is one of your, if not the, top business tools. So how did you discover that? How do you practice it, and what value do you feel it brings to you in your business life?

Max James: Very good. How I found it, for me, I was at a seminar, and the gentleman that was teaching the seminar said, "Before we got started, I want to show you something and have you experience it." So it was transcendental meditation, and we hummed for a while, and he explained in his mind what the benefits were. So I went ahead with the seminar, and afterwards, at home, I would do as he had suggested, take up to maybe 10, 15, 20 minutes sometime and just try not to think. Here's what happened to me. I'd sit in a chair most of the time, I don't do it laying down, and I would take a notebook, and I would lay it down beside the chair. When I finished the meditation, all of these thoughts had come into my subconscious and risen into the conscious mind, and I would write them down. I used to, for fun, entertain people in the Air Force at the officers' club, and I'd do the same thing. I'd wake up in the mornings and immediately write down all the cute little ideas for the next show at the officers' club.

Max James: So I discovered that, one, it reduced stress enormously just to stop worrying for 15 or 20 minutes or trying to figure everything out. Just take a real break, not a break where you sit and say, "Okay, I'm going to think about this for a while." No, no, no. Stop and don't think. That's what helped me, and it helped me through many personal situations in life so far, and it certainly helped me in business. So I continue to do it. By the way, I must have, I don't know, 30, 40 books on meditation. So it's something that I've felt strongly enough about. I've taught it in my companies. I've tried to get my friends to do it from time to time, and I still do it. To relieve stress is the principle reason.

Max James: I could give you examples, and there's a good example in the book where I had missed an airplane and it was an important meeting and I got there and it was a mess and I had a headache so bad I couldn't stand it. They took me back to the hotel before we had dinner, and I did meditation for about 15 to 20 minutes. The headache went away, and we had a successful dinner meeting. So I believe in it, yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: So I have a few questions, okay?

Max James: Okay.

Sarah Nicastro: So at the conference when this was first introduced you, what was your initial reaction?

Max James: "Oh, you got to be kidding. What is this? This is a bunch of... I'm not going to do this." But I had previously known the speaker, and I knew how bright he was. I knew his background. I knew his education, and it was transcendental... TM back then was popular. You could buy the book. So I thought, "Well, if it's good enough for him, I'm going to try it," and I liked it.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. And do you typically practice in the morning, or do you wait until you just feel that you need that stress relief? What is your routine around it?

Max James: Yeah. I would say both of those. For me, practicing it in the morning after I'm dressed and have had breakfast or whatever and just sit down before I really hit it. Then, secondly, if I'm feeling distress of whatever, the breathing is just... It's just so good. It's like taking a hot shower, okay? It's just a total relief. Then when I stop meditation, I feel like I have more energy. So it works for me.

Sarah Nicastro: No, I think it's really cool. Like I said, it was unexpected, something unexpected I read, and it's something I know I need to try. So I need to make a commitment to do that. I do-

Max James: I hope you will.

Sarah Nicastro: I do believe in it and think it will help. I have some of my own practices that I certainly benefit from. Mine is I work out every morning, right? So that's my time to get in the zone or whatever. But it is still different from that sense of quiet and peace and breathing and all of that. I don't know that we've talked about meditation specifically on this podcast before, but we certainly have talked about, for someone who is responsible for being creative, innovating, those sorts of things, the idea of figuring out what works for you in terms of creating white space. I think, like you said, at the end of that 15 or 20 minutes, you have all of these fresh thoughts and ideas, and it's because you literally took a break. It's not because you were thinking about it harder, right, or running faster on the hamster wheel.

Max James: That's right.

Sarah Nicastro: It's because you stepped off of it. I suppose that doesn't need to look the same for everyone, but I do think that that practice of preserving time to have that white space is incredibly important for people who are responsible for a lot of creative ideas, problem-solving, innovation, transformation. I find myself I come up with my best ideas when I walk away. So it could be in the shower. It can be on a walk. It's when I finally allow myself to take a breather that whatever the solution is or... That's when it comes to you. It's not when you're trying so hard to force it out, right?

Max James: No. In simple terms, it's blocking all the junk that goes into your head all the time. A lot of times, people have trouble sleeping. Why? Because they can't turn it off. Well, it's the same thing during the day in stress and whatnot. There are a lot of people who say they meditate while they're in an activity like tennis. Some of the pros meditate. Well, what they're really doing is they're learning to focus, to focus on one thing and getting the other stuff out of the way. "Oh, what's the score?" It doesn't matter what the score is. Just do the best you can right now. So I find it terribly beneficial and have for a long time.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. Interesting.

Max James: Try it. You'll like it.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. I will. All right. So the last thing I wanted to talk about, Max, is... And I think I saw this on your LinkedIn. So I'm going to read some text here, and then we'll talk about it, okay? You had a post and it says, "When your business doesn't appear to be accomplishing your goals, it's tempting to feel you need outside help in finding the magical solution. More often than not, however, what you really need to do first is go back and examine whether or not you have missed or ignored the basic business fundamentals. As Harvey Mackay says, maybe you just need to go back and walk the manufacturing floor, i.e., look really hard for the flaws, the flies in the ointment. Strong fundamentals and foundations lead to healthy businesses that can bounce high and withstand difficult circumstances." So the reason this stood out to me-

Max James: Oh, that's a mouthful, isn't it? Wow.

Sarah Nicastro: The reason this stood out to me is because a lot of the conversations we have on this podcast relate to some element of evolving a business, digital transformation, leveraging technology in a new or different way, introducing a new value proposition, et cetera, et cetera, right, so a lot of things to do with evolution, innovation, change. I think that this point that you're making here is where a lot of companies fail, and I don't mean failure in the good way. I mean, failure in the debilitating way, right? Because they try to race ahead when, in reality, there are some underlying foundational things that need to be addressed to set the stage for whatever success they're trying to achieve. So tell us a little bit more, your thoughts around this idea of before you look for some magic bullet, go back through and look for those flies in the ointment. Are there certain things that, in your experience, you feel like are common, or what would you want listeners to think about when they hear me read that quote?

Max James: The first thing that comes to my mind is have I been diligent in choosing the people that work for me or with me? There's a thing in the book, and I highlight it everywhere. Hire for character, train for skill. Did I really look hard at this person's background or their personality, their honesty, moral interpretative... Did I really look for that? That's, I think, one of the things Harvey says about get out of your office and go out to the field and see what you have. I oftentimes was amazed and angry with myself that we had allowed people with poor character to join the organization in a meaningful position. So that would be the first.

Max James: The second one is have you really expressed, first to yourself and then to the people that you are associated with, what your goal is? Do I really know what it is that I'm hoping we're going to accomplish? Are we just trying to make a bunch of money? Are we trying to provide good jobs for people? Are we donating enough money to our favorite charities? Does everybody agree with that? Back to the basics of being a good leader. There are a million books written on leadership, and there are thousands of books written about character, starting with the bestselling book of all time. It's the Bible, okay? So where in there are you?

Max James: Dr. Robert Schuller, who was a spiritual mentor of mine before he passed and still is, by the way, I read something that he has written every single day, Schuller said, "Are you suffering a brownout or a blackout? Are you sure it's a blackout? Are you sure there's not something you're doing wrong that you can fix and really this is just a brown out, not a blackout?" So get out of your office, go out there, and really look hard at whether or not you are using the tools that you know are true, that you have practiced, and that you have skill levels in to build this. Look inside first before you go shouting fire in the theater. Are you sure? So I think that's the point I was trying to make there, is that you may be really screwing things up yourself and everybody else is trying to fix it or throwing up their hands because you don't understand the real problem. So make sure that you are doing what you know, you absolutely know, are the right things to do for leadership and for progress.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. We had a podcast late last year with... Slowing Down to Speed Up, I think, was the title of it, and it was with-

Max James: Great point.

Sarah Nicastro: ... Eduardo Bonefont from BD. That was a little bit more specific to the idea of innovation via technology, right? But what he found was while the natural tendency today is to race to, "Okay, what's next, what do we add, what do we change, what's the next layer of innovation," he found that when he spent time... Exactly what you're saying. When he spent time with the frontline workforce, when it came to technology specifically, they had a lot of issues with some of the foundational systems that were in place, and so this mentality of, "Well, let's add to that and let's build, build, build," they would've been doing that on a faulty foundation, which was causing a lot of frustration among their workforce.

Sarah Nicastro: So they decided to take a pause year, pause meaning they obviously were conducting business but pause from technology investment, and take the budget that they would've invested in whatever was next or new on their roadmap, to put that into fixing these foundational issues and improving the engagement and satisfaction of their frontline workforce. It's something that, retelling it, sounds simple, sounds smart, right, but it works against the grain of a lot of business mentality, which is race, race, race, what's next, what's next? So it was such a good story to share, and it makes me think of this point that you made with your LinkedIn post and this idea of the failure often isn't in some massive misstep so much as a lot of little cracks that are adding up to frustration or misalignment or a lot of other things. So I think it's a really good point.

Max James: There are two cliches that come to mind. One is, if you remember all the old Aesop's Tales, the tortoise won the race over the hare, and so there are times when speed isn't going to... Secondly, perfection is the enemy of excellence. You can be beating up on your people to do this, that, and the other thing when the profits are pretty good, things are going well, the future looks bright. So put the whip down and feed them some ice cream.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Max James: Yeah. We sometimes let our own personal idiosyncrasies get in the way of an organization's idiosyncrasies.

Sarah Nicastro: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. All right, Max. Any final thoughts, words of wisdom, advice that you would like to share?

Max James: A couple. The old Air Force motto is, "Fly, fight, win." It doesn't say fly and win. It says you have to fight. So whether you're an entrepreneur or whether you're an intrapreneur inside a large company, you're going to have to double up your fist and fight for what you want. Prepare as well as you can that what you are fighting for is worth it and the way you are fighting is with character and integrity. So hire for character, train for skills, bet on bright, but cut your losses early and move on. Don't be afraid of failing. If you've done your best, that is success, and failure's never final. This was good, Sarah. I have enjoyed it very much. Thank you for inviting me.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Thank you, Max. Let folks know where they can find the book.

Max James: Amazon, The Harder I Fall, The Higher I Bounce, or put in my name and it'll come up. I told many people I'm prouder of the endorsements which you'll find on the page than I actually am of the book, and so you'll find the former Air Force Chief of Staff, the Vice Chairman of General Motors. Some people that I have high respect for have been overly flattering. So go to Amazon, The Harder I Fall, The Higher I Bounce.

Sarah Nicastro: Awesome. Thank you, Max. I appreciate it.

Max James: Thank you, ma'am. Thank you.

Sarah Nicastro: You can find more by visiting us at futureoffieldservice.com. You can also find us on LinkedIn as well as Twitter, @TheFutureOfFS. The Future of Field Service podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thanks for listening.

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